Is Rachel Grey, Hope and Madelyne, rips off of Jean Grey

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#1 Edited by time (5154 posts) - - Show Bio

Rachel is the daughter of Jean grey

Madelyne Pryor is Jean Grey clone, Mother of Cable and was dating Cyclops

Hope is the mutant Messiah, a host of the Pheonix

What I find disgusting is Rachel and Maddie both return to X-Men in the last couples of years. Rachel is in X-Men legacy, alongside Rogue and she is in Wolverine and the X-Men, Maddie return in the sisterhood story and I'm sure she return again. Hope is tied to Phoenix and tied to Jean grey in some way. So what I find annoying is, they create these types of replacements for Jean Grey, but none of them as good as Jean Grey. It's been 8 years, going on 9 years now and Jean still hasn't return. Shocking really . Should X-Men get rid of Rachel, Hope & Madelyne Pryor and just return Jean Grey or keep them and not return Jean. What do you think of these rip of characters and is marvel being unfair to Jean Grey by keeping them in comics and not bringing her back?

#2 Posted by time (5154 posts) - - Show Bio

Forgive my spelling by the way.

#3 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

That's the point.

#4 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

That's the point.

Pretty much this.

#5 Posted by RogueOracle (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, they've all popped up during a time Jean was dead to essentially act as her replacement until she was brought back.

Nothing beats the original.

#6 Posted by Yasiiii4 (150 posts) - - Show Bio

I completely agree with you, they should quit making all these "replacement" jean grey's and just bring her back for good. Hope is annoying, rachel doesn't bother me so much, and i don't like madelyne. They SHOULD get rid of them and just keep jean, and i agree also that it's not fair to jean, she's a million times better then all of them combined and she's the original! they should also stop giving the phoenix force to other hosts. It belongs to jean grey and nobody else deserves it. It specifically chose her.

#7 Posted by danhimself (22712 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how a clone, a daughter, a girl who is completely unrelated to Jean are rip-offs...plus they're all from the same publisher...now if DC made a new female character with red hair, physic powers, the affinity for getting possessed by a cosmic being, dying and then coming back to life...that would be a rip-off

#8 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3622 posts) - - Show Bio

@danhimself said:

I don't see how a clone, a daughter, a girl who is completely unrelated to Jean are rip-offs...plus they're all from the same publisher...now if DC made a new female character with red hair, physic powers, the affinity for getting possessed by a cosmic being, dying and then coming back to life...that would be a rip-off

They are ripoffs because they look extremely similar to Jean, have/had the same powers and their characters were based off of Jean's life in the 616 universe and alternate timelines. Just because details are different doesn't make a character less of a rip off. In the case of rip offs with a lot of history (i.e. being around since the 60s or 70s), they may have enough stories to have a lot of details that differ from the originals, but they are essentially still lesser-powered rip offs of other characters.

For example, Thor (the original) --- Thor Girl (rip off). Teen versions of heroes, such as Wonder girl, Super girl and Super boy also started as rip offs.

#9 Posted by sky-pirate (111 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

@danhimself said:

I don't see how a clone, a daughter, a girl who is completely unrelated to Jean are rip-offs...plus they're all from the same publisher...now if DC made a new female character with red hair, physic powers, the affinity for getting possessed by a cosmic being, dying and then coming back to life...that would be a rip-off

They are ripoffs because they look extremely similar to Jean, have/had the same powers and their characters were based off of Jean's life in the 616 universe and alternate timelines. Just because details are different doesn't make a character less of a rip off. In the case of rip offs with a lot of history (i.e. being around since the 60s or 70s), they may have enough stories to have a lot of details that differ from the originals, but they are essentially still lesser-powered rip offs of other characters.

For example, Thor (the original) --- Thor Girl (rip off). Teen versions of heroes, such as Wonder girl, Super girl and Super boy also started as rip offs.

No, rip-off refers to plagiarism. The characters you've mentioned are all spin-offs, as they're created (and owned) by the same company that created the original and no one is pretending there isn't a connection to an earlier work of theirs.

#10 Posted by thewidowsbite (135 posts) - - Show Bio

The point is we (or at least I) want the real Jean Grey back and can do without all these copycats that are obviously replacements/substitutes of the real deal. Whatever constitutes as a "rip-off" is irrelavent, these other characters are clearly used to try and confuse and/or intrigue fans as to why they look like and have similar powers to such an iconic character.

Personally I like Rachel (though she's sometimes annoying) and could tolerate Madelyne before the Sisterhood storyline, but Hope is just pushing the envelope. They keep telling the same story in different ways: Jean Grey dies, some other female appears with an uncanny resemblance and similar (or practically identical) powers appears out of nowhere who has an important role within the world of the X-Men.

This story's played-out like a worn record and I think it's time Marvel brought back the one and only Jean and stop killing her off.

#11 Posted by BOPFAN#3 (115 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewidowsbite: I agree with you for the most part. I would agree that they were all cheap rip-offs of the original (whom I love) but I think over the years they have definitely evolved into actual characters. I really like Rachel, I love that she sets Cyclops in his place, and I love it when she fights with home wrecker…I mean Emma. And Madelyne has had an interesting story with Goblyn Queen and Cable, and being screwed over by Cyclops, I think he just needs to be single for awhile. Except I’m still waiting to find out what Hope’s point is……..I mean yeah she’s the “Mutant Messiah” blah blah blah, but what has she actually done so far? I’m hoping Marvel can give her a good story with the upcoming Avengers VS X-Men but if they don’t…….I just don’t see the point of her.

And yeah Jean needed to come back YEARS ago……..I’m sick of the waiting!!!!!!!! I’m also sick of people talking about how she’s died five times and she keeps coming back and saying it gives comics a bad name! I mean she died ONE time, the Dark Phoenix Saga wasn’t even her, the only time she’s ever “died” is the New X-Men. Plus her names the ?!?!?!?! I can’t believe people would be surprised if she comes back from the dead I mean hello………. It’s like saying you’re surprised mice like cheese….it’s kinda what they do.

#12 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

Spin-Offs, if the term is applicable in this context.

#13 Posted by joshmightbe (24688 posts) - - Show Bio

They aren't rip offs they have similar traits but are all completely different characters in personalities and motivations

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#14 Posted by cattlebattle (13347 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

Spin-Offs, if the term is applicable in this context.

How about fill ins...I have no idea if that's a real term outside of dentistry, but essentially all those characters existed to fill in for Jean Grey while she was dead...except maybe Hope, as she is a bit different
#15 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@ReVamp said:

Spin-Offs, if the term is applicable in this context.

How about fill ins...I have no idea if that's a real term outside of dentistry, but essentially all those characters existed to fill in for Jean Grey while she was dead...except maybe Hope, as she is a bit different

I find that spin-offs suits it better.

#16 Posted by BOPFAN#3 (115 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Change my mind, fill in is the perfect term! And I don't mean they're just rip offs I mean originally they kind of were. You didn't get anything really interesting with their character until Jean came back. But I love Rachel and Madelyne. I actually wish Madelyne played a bigger role in the X-Men universe, but I keep hearing Sisterhood wasn't great so idk.

If Jean came back would you want her to be with Logan because a lot of people are talking about how they should be a couple and I just don't see the need to pair up superheroes, can't anyone stay single for more then a year?

#17 Posted by The Stegman (25957 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say reincarnations would be the best term.

#18 Posted by thewidowsbite (135 posts) - - Show Bio

@BOPFAN#3: Couldn't have said it myself, even the bit about Emma, lol.

I personally don't see the realism in Jean being with Logan... ever. Yeah, he's been pining after her from day one and she seems to have some feelings for him too, but if anything between them was going to happen (their sporadic kisses don't count IMO, only a real relationship or at least a full sexual encounter), it would have happened before she married Scott or DEFINITELY after he cheated on her.

Honestly other than Spider-Man and Mary Jane (whom Marvel NEVER should have split up), not many superhero couples are necessary in Marvel, they just want to help make the characters seem more realistic.

#19 Posted by luckydomino1 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

racheal in my mind isnt but hope is for the simple fact that she was created to replace jean maddie prior i dont know about her

#20 Posted by Yasiiii4 (150 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Logan and Jean should be together.Even if it is a "superhero couple". It's like the people you always see that just need to hurry up and make it official already, it's been so long, it just needs to happen.

#21 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Yasiiii4: I disagree with you. Jean needs to not be with anyone for a while. She's been in relationships since she was created, it's high time she just is Jean and tries to explore the world on her own. Besides like I feel mother's should be, she should care more about being with her children and caring about herself than worry about a man. But that's my opinion.

#22 Posted by BOPFAN#3 (115 posts) - - Show Bio

I think another great Marvel couple is Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman, but that might just be me. I also don’t think she really needs to focus on her children too much. I mean all of her kids are grown up, well her alternate reality children and her step-son, complex family tree haha.

And I still can’t decide if I’d want Jean and Logan together, I don’t think I would though just because they’re that couple that you WANT to get together, but you know it’d never work out for one reason or another. But if we just look at it on paper they would make the most sense together, I mean the reason doesn’t have a wife is because she always gets murdered, but Jean always comes back. Really they’re like a sitcom, they’re the people on the sitcom that you want to see get together, but you know as soon as they do the show would be canceled. Their sexual tension is much more entertaining.

So was the Sisterhood of Mutants story arc really that horrible? Because I was gonna buy the TPB but if it’s really that bad then I don’t want to…

#23 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@BOPFAN#3: I meant it as more like if Jean where to come back now as a result of AvX and Cable, Rachel, and Nate were all still around in the 616, I want Jean to try to have a family moment with them given that this very well could be the first time all 3 Summers/Grey Children together. Not saying she has to totally focus on them, but at least some quality time. But above all, she needs to just be herself for a time before jumping into a relationship. She's been like a caged bird in the White Hot Room for awhile. She should explore the world without being forced back into the X-Men mold. She deserves some characterization time. Then let her come back into the fold.

#24 Posted by BOPFAN#3 (115 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX: Oh I completely agree, I've been looking for some sort of family moment where Jean connects to her kids for years and the closes I can come is at the end of Phoenix-Endsong when Emma connects Jean to all the X-Men and Rachel says "Mom..." I'm also interested to see what her and Cable's relationship is because really Jean's just his step-mom. Does Cable recognize Jean or Madelyne as his mother? And do Rachel, Cable, and Nate recognize each other as siblings? So many questions haha.

#25 Posted by jubilee042 (1345 posts) - - Show Bio

spin offs in my opinion too

#26 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@BOPFAN#3: Cable knows Maddie is his biological mom, but he looks at Jean has his real mother as Jean and Scott raised him in the future for some time as Slim and Redd Daysprings. Rachel and Cable know their are siblings, I know Nate and Cable know they are brothers, but others don't get that they are, Rachel and Nate have never met as far as I know.

#27 Posted by DEGRAAF (7911 posts) - - Show Bio

I think The phoenix should come back and they should all share the power of the Phoenix as a way to control it without being consumed or the Phoenix should take them all and turn them in to one person with the ability to harness the power of the Phoenix

#28 Posted by BOPFAN#3 (115 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX: Yeah I'd really like them to bring back Jean and solidify these relationships because I've just never seen them before. I don't think I've even read more then two or three comics where Rachel and Cable are in them together , let alone acknowledge each other as siblings. I've never read a comic with X-Man in it though haha. I'm looking at starting to pick up like two or three X-books what ones would you recommend? I was looking at X-Men, X-Men: Legacy and X-Factor. And AvX of course.

#29 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@BOPFAN#3: Rachel was Mother Askani who took Cable into the Future so he could survive the T-O virus and train him to be the so called Chosen One. X-Man (I still hate that code name) was 90s so it's gonna definitely feel dated.

X-Men has been getting better as of late, but Wood is taking over soon so it may be a solid title again.

X-Men: Legacy was a very solid title when Carey was writing. Now Gage is on it, and it's been ok, but Gage needs time to get familiar with the team. If you like Rachel, she gets a tad more screen time here than WaTX.

X-Factor has always been solid. It's PAD. You can't go wrong with PAD.

#30 Posted by XsPectre28 (738 posts) - - Show Bio

rachel & maddie both made real impacts in the marvel universe Rachel because not only is she jean's daughter but she saved cable's life & trained created the clan chosen to teach & protect cable so he could fight Apocalypse. maddie is cable's mother because jean was "DEAD~ REALLY IN A COCOON HEALING" & all the other important things they did... if rachel or maddie was wiped out/never used the whole reality of X-men will have to be revamped. now hope on the other hand is not a good fit only because she has become irrelevant seeing as that her original goal was to replenish the mutant race but scarlet witch is back so yea.... now she is tied to the phoenix force & me personally i still think that hope is the 616 version of rachel

#31 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4391 posts) - - Show Bio

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@TheGreyOutcastX: Oh I completely agree, I've been looking for some sort of family moment where Jean connects to her kids for years and the closes I can come is at the end of Phoenix-Endsong when Emma connects Jean to all the X-Men and Rachel says "Mom..." I'm also interested to see what her and Cable's relationship is because really Jean's just his step-mom. Does Cable recognize Jean or Madelyne as his mother? And do Rachel, Cable, and Nate recognize each other as siblings? So many questions haha.

Jean and Nate have a pretty close relationship too. When he crashed on 616 Earth he subconsciously reached out for comfort this brought Maddie back, but it was brought about by his memory of Jean from his Earth. He spent some time with Jean and Scott in Alaska, joined a team they briefly put together to save the Mannites, and went to Jean to comfort him about the "death" of Cyclopes during the 12. When he returned, Mystique impersonated Jean and he called her mother/mom. If they stay true to those stories, he'll be as happy to see her as the other two should be.

#32 Posted by BOPFAN#3 (115 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX: I always liked the codename X-Man haha it's just horribly great, like it's just so dumb that its great. It's basically like a Transformers movie, it's so dumb that it's entertaining. And yeah I'll probs be getting TPB's of X-Men and Legacy and maybe X-Factor, I'm not quite sure yet, comics are expensive!

Is anyone reading Astonishing X-Men? I used to read it but I stopped at Exogenetic, it was just too dumb for me. Although past remarks about Emma I really liked her in Astonishing and when she joined the X-Men in New X-Men........UGH I miss Morrison's New X-Men!!!!!!!!!!

Also there's a new TPB printing of Dark Phoenix Saga for the 30th Anniversary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#33 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Yep, this pictures says a thousand words on that:

#34 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@BOPFAN#3: He should have just been Nate Grey like Jean was in the 90s before using Phoenix as her codename again. His regular name is more known that his codename!

Astonishing has been hit and miss since Whedon, but now Liu (Formerly wrote X-23) is writing it. It's doing a new story featuring Wolverine's side of the X-Men now with Jean-Paul!

#35 Edited by Vance Astro (91403 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel owns Jean Grey,Rachel Grey,Madelyne Pryor,and Hope Summers.Therefore RIP-OFF doesn't apply.

Moderator
#36 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

Rip-off No

poor imitations of an awesome character yes

#37 Posted by TheRealJeanGrey (127 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that they r just other possible aspects of Jean that Marvel wanted to try and make seperate entities. Madelyne IS Jean, Rachel is her daughter which by extension makes her Jean. And clearly Hope was supposed to have a MUCH closer link to Jean as was alluded to by Marvel. Then different writers tried to make Hope.... something more than what she was originally intended. Hope now is just a female Scott. Which is why I believe they constantly but heads... but anyway back to Jean. Jean was a girl with a solid home life. Both parents and a sister, all of which were loving. Madelyne is Jean's carbon copy. She possibly has all the same potential but none of the background to reach that potential. Different events in Madelyne's life made her who and what she is. Rachel in her timeline just grew up differently. So also her life has a different cause and effect. But the basis and foundation of all these "characters" is Jean. Which I think would earn her a lil more respect than she is currently recieving from Marvel. This whole Phoenix Force searching for a new host thing is humiliating and derespectful.... Jean quite literally was and still IS the true heart of the X-Men!!!

So not really rip-offs but just pale imitations..... but if u wanna suggest that Marvel was infact ripping themselves off...well that just a lack of creativity and guts. BOOM!!!!

#38 Posted by TheWholeDamnShow (758 posts) - - Show Bio

I am already Jean fatigued. If they bring her back, they should bring her back FOR GOOD or just let her stay dead. All these cheap imitations are worthless too.

#39 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say that Madeylne and Hope are COMPLETE rip-offs but not Rachel Grey, I only see her as the daughter of Jean Grey, nothing more nothing less.

#40 Posted by arcano_19 (118 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by Yasiiii4 (150 posts) - - Show Bio

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@TheGreyOutcastX: Oh I completely agree, I've been looking for some sort of family moment where Jean connects to her kids for years and the closes I can come is at the end of Phoenix-Endsong when Emma connects Jean to all the X-Men and Rachel says "Mom..." I'm also interested to see what her and Cable's relationship is because really Jean's just his step-mom. Does Cable recognize Jean or Madelyne as his mother? And do Rachel, Cable, and Nate recognize each other as siblings? So many questions haha.

Cyclops just needs to stop having kids...seriously

#42 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Yasiiii4 said:

@BOPFAN#3 said:

@TheGreyOutcastX: Oh I completely agree, I've been looking for some sort of family moment where Jean connects to her kids for years and the closes I can come is at the end of Phoenix-Endsong when Emma connects Jean to all the X-Men and Rachel says "Mom..." I'm also interested to see what her and Cable's relationship is because really Jean's just his step-mom. Does Cable recognize Jean or Madelyne as his mother? And do Rachel, Cable, and Nate recognize each other as siblings? So many questions haha.

Cyclops just needs to stop having kids...seriously

He's technically only had one kid. Two if you count Rachel. Nate was created by Sinister from Scott's and Jean's DNA.

#43 Posted by Yasiiii4 (150 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX: Don't forget about Ruby, his daughter with emma. He still has a lot of dna out there lol

#44 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Yasiiii4 said:

@TheGreyOutcastX: Don't forget about Ruby, his daughter with emma. He still has a lot of dna out there lol

Doesn't count as it's an alternate timeline future daughter who isn't in the 616. Hence why I said 2 if you count Rachel.

#45 Posted by Inverno (13282 posts) - - Show Bio

I really miss Jean... How long she is dead (in our time)? 7 years? 10 years? Honestly I don't mind Rachel or Madelyne but I believe that Hope Summers is a outright Mary Sue rippoff.

#46 Posted by Vance Astro (91403 posts) - - Show Bio

Hope>Rachel>>>>>>>>>>>Madelyne>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jean.

Moderator
#47 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

The whole idea of Hope is dorky....she is a dork.....rachel is jean grey lite....madelyne is schmadelyne....and jean herself is a caricature of herself....red headed boringness

#48 Posted by Thorion88 (302 posts) - - Show Bio

http://www.alternatecover.com/features/how-many-times-has-jean-grey-died/

Honestly after reading that convoluted mess, I'd say let her stay dead. Seems to be the only thing she's doing successfully these days.

#49 Posted by time (5154 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheRealJeanGrey said:

I think that they r just other possible aspects of Jean that Marvel wanted to try and make seperate entities. Madelyne IS Jean, Rachel is her daughter which by extension makes her Jean. And clearly Hope was supposed to have a MUCH closer link to Jean as was alluded to by Marvel. Then different writers tried to make Hope.... something more than what she was originally intended. Hope now is just a female Scott. Which is why I believe they constantly but heads... but anyway back to Jean. Jean was a girl with a solid home life. Both parents and a sister, all of which were loving. Madelyne is Jean's carbon copy. She possibly has all the same potential but none of the background to reach that potential. Different events in Madelyne's life made her who and what she is. Rachel in her timeline just grew up differently. So also her life has a different cause and effect. But the basis and foundation of all these "characters" is Jean. Which I think would earn her a lil more respect than she is currently recieving from Marvel. This whole Phoenix Force searching for a new host thing is humiliating and derespectful.... Jean quite literally was and still IS the true heart of the X-Men!!!

So not really rip-offs but just pale imitations..... but if u wanna suggest that Marvel was infact ripping themselves off...well that just a lack of creativity and guts. BOOM!!!!

I like what your saying. Marvel should treat Jean Grey with more respect.

#50 Posted by Planewalker (328 posts) - - Show Bio

I for one would rather have Rachel that Jean, I hate all the emotional baggage that the character carriers around!

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