Does AvX & Warsong contradict the Beautiful Story of Endsong?

#1 Posted by poisonfleur (3021 posts) - - Show Bio

So I was under the impression Phoenix and Jean are one. But Warsong and AvX clearly proves they are separate entities. Why would Marvel trample over such an amazing story such as Phoenix Endsong just to crank out abominations like warsong and avx???

It's like Endsong never even happened...

And are Jean and the Phoenix not one of the same after all?

#2 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

I seriously thought it was, and it would have been a beautiful conclusion and send off for Jean if it were her final appearance, but AvX is just confusing the frick out of me.

I pretend Warsong never happened because

a) You can't have an official Phoenix story without Jean Grey

b) it was weird as hell

#3 Posted by Crimsonlord53 (1317 posts) - - Show Bio

I was thinking about this the other day I think it would be cool to see the dark phoenix/white crown jean start to show up to taunt/advise against the current P4 sorta like the old cartoon devil/angle on your shoulder. Heck even just have the phoenix force reference jean as being part of it.

#4 Posted by SC (12920 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't remember Jean and Phoenix ever being established as one, beyond poetic or metaphorical phrasing. The Phoenix is a multiversal concept, the most in-tuned with the Phoenix I remember Jean being with, was her White Phoenix of the Crown state, and even then there were still multiple other Phoenix hosts functioning independent of Jean at that time. That being said the Phoenix is often inconsistent and retconned and such things happened way before Endsong and knowing Greg Pak, Endsong probably retconned stuff too. That also being said AvX is just really really... unfortunately consistency isn't a highlight.        

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#5 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

i think i saw brevoort say somewhere that endsong "isn't canon"..............

#6 Posted by Excella (343 posts) - - Show Bio

If endsong wasn't canon then how do you explain the fragments that were in the Cuckoos?

AvX is a total mess they portray the Phoenix as a parasite bent on destroying the world, Tony and Steve have no idea what the Phoenix is and neither does Wolverine surprisingly that he was there the whole time to know of it yet in AvX they make it as if he think it's a total mass destruction force just wanting to swallow up Earth for breakfast.

So yes AvX contradicts Endsong. Emma couldn't house the Phoenix and all of a sudden she can? Along with the other 4, surprisingly they haven't turn into a Dark Phoenix case.

#7 Posted by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

AvX is really ruining the phoenix force its sad D:

#8 Posted by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

Endsong isn't canon?

#9 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5834 posts) - - Show Bio
@oviouslyjeangrey said:

AvX is really ruining the phoenix force its sad D:

Yeah, I didn't like the fact that they used the Phoenix Force in AvX.
#10 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7282 posts) - - Show Bio

@X35 said:

i think i saw brevoort say somewhere that endsong "isn't canon"..............

Yeah, that's what he said, then again, Brevoort is incappable of differentiating canon from non-canon. Just as long as the cheques come in, he's all for it and scoulding rightfully upset fans with condescending remarks. At least, this is what i'm getting from current observations.

I mean, we all know it actually it is, but he and the other brilliant editors of Marvel have deliberately gone out of their way to undo and ignore all the hard Phoenix work done by Claremont, Morrison, Pak and others.

He's really annoying.

#11 Posted by SC (12920 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone slash anyone provide a link to Brevoort's comments or know the source? I am just curious about what else he might have said? 

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#12 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, hold the phone!
 
Someone said Endsong isn't canon?

#13 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC: Probably on his formspring. He's generally a no-knowledge annoying hack 24/7 on there uttering garbage about how "continuity isn't important" and that all that matters is "the story".

#14 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7282 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: Not "someone", just an editorial troll of and for the Jean Grey fans.

#15 Posted by SC (12920 posts) - - Show Bio
@X35: Cheers X35!  
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#16 Posted by Crimsonlord53 (1317 posts) - - Show Bio

@X35 said:

@SC: Probably on his formspring. He's generally a no-knowledge annoying hack 24/7 on there uttering garbage about how "continuity isn't important" and that all that matters is "the story".

But without continuity there is no story.

No history to build on nothing to link the past to the present this hack is really a marvel editor.

#17 Posted by Roddy010 (5197 posts) - - Show Bio

@Excella said:

If endsong wasn't canon then how do you explain the fragments that were in the Cuckoos?

AvX is a total mess they portray the Phoenix as a parasite bent on destroying the world, Tony and Steve have no idea what the Phoenix is and neither does Wolverine surprisingly that he was there the whole time to know of it yet in AvX they make it as if he think it's a total mass destruction force just wanting to swallow up Earth for breakfast.

So yes AvX contradicts Endsong. Emma couldn't house the Phoenix and all of a sudden she can? Along with the other 4, surprisingly they haven't turn into a Dark Phoenix case.

That's because it was more of the force than the fragment she has now...It overwhelmed her...

I think it's quite sad what they have done to the X-men and their relationship to Phoenix. As someone already mentioned Wolverine acts as if he wasn't with Jean when she became Phoenix in New X-men. She saved his life when he nearly burned alive on the surface of the sun. Jean even went as far as to explain the nature of the Phoenix to Logan so he has a better understanding than most people about the force....He should've known the good that the force could bring...But I understand he was also there for Dark Phoenix so he also knows the destruction..But I feel he could have played a much better role than what writers have portrayed him in AvX...He could have definitely been the voice of reason instead of acting on instinct (attempting to kill Hope)...he could have shared his knowledge with Hope and gave her a better understanding to what Phoenix is and what it is capable of....

#18 Posted by Excella (343 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@Excella said:

If endsong wasn't canon then how do you explain the fragments that were in the Cuckoos?

AvX is a total mess they portray the Phoenix as a parasite bent on destroying the world, Tony and Steve have no idea what the Phoenix is and neither does Wolverine surprisingly that he was there the whole time to know of it yet in AvX they make it as if he think it's a total mass destruction force just wanting to swallow up Earth for breakfast.

So yes AvX contradicts Endsong. Emma couldn't house the Phoenix and all of a sudden she can? Along with the other 4, surprisingly they haven't turn into a Dark Phoenix case.

That's because it was more of the force than the fragment she has now...It overwhelmed her...

I think it's quite sad what they have done to the X-men and their relationship to Phoenix. As someone already mentioned Wolverine acts as if he wasn't with Jean when she became Phoenix in New X-men. She saved his life when he nearly burned alive on the surface of the sun. Jean even went as far as to explain the nature of the Phoenix to Logan so he has a better understanding than most people about the force....He should've known the good that the force could bring...But I understand he was also there for Dark Phoenix so he also knows the destruction..But I feel he could have played a much better role than what writers have portrayed him in AvX...He could have definitely been the voice of reason instead of acting on instinct (attempting to kill Hope)...he could have shared his knowledge with Hope and gave her a better understanding to what Phoenix is and what it is capable of....

I'm starting to see that, but even a little piece should be overwhelming.

Exactly couldn't have put it any better. The writing in AvX is a flop.

#19 Posted by Roddy010 (5197 posts) - - Show Bio

@Excella:

I'm starting to see that, but even a little piece should be overwhelming.
Exactly couldn't have put it any better. The writing in AvX is a flop.

Indeed...I feel they could have given this book a more emotional and dramatic approach as the other Phoenix stories...It's mostly filled with war and senseless violence...I do enjoy some of the stories like Uncanny but the main storiy could have definitely been better. I wonder what the story would have been like if they had Grant Morrison, Claremont, Lee, and Weddon together on this event...The story would have been more interesting imho....

#20 Posted by Excella (343 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@Excella:

I'm starting to see that, but even a little piece should be overwhelming.
Exactly couldn't have put it any better. The writing in AvX is a flop.

Indeed...I feel they could have given this book a more emotional and dramatic approach as the other Phoenix stories...It's mostly filled with war and senseless violence...I do enjoy some of the stories like Uncanny but the main storiy could have definitely been better. I wonder what the story would have been like if they had Grant Morrison, Claremont, Lee, and Weddon together on this event...The story would have been more interesting imho....

He is perfection! Even if the art in his run was kinda everywhere, it fitted the tone so well though. Plus when he gave Jean a fare well off it was really emotional. I cried, well like one tear came down lol.

#21 Posted by Roddy010 (5197 posts) - - Show Bio

@Excella said:

@Roddy010 said:

@Excella:

I'm starting to see that, but even a little piece should be overwhelming.
Exactly couldn't have put it any better. The writing in AvX is a flop.

Indeed...I feel they could have given this book a more emotional and dramatic approach as the other Phoenix stories...It's mostly filled with war and senseless violence...I do enjoy some of the stories like Uncanny but the main storiy could have definitely been better. I wonder what the story would have been like if they had Grant Morrison, Claremont, Lee, and Weddon together on this event...The story would have been more interesting imho....

He is perfection! Even if the art in his run was kinda everywhere, it fitted the tone so well though. Plus when he gave Jean a fare well off it was really emotional. I cried, well like one tear came down lol.

Lol I know the feeling...I loved when she saved the team right before she transcended into the White Hot Room. I also like the fact that he referenced Jean and Ororo's sisterhood..Most writers seem to forget about that.

#22 Posted by Excella (343 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@Excella said:

@Roddy010 said:

@Excella:

I'm starting to see that, but even a little piece should be overwhelming.
Exactly couldn't have put it any better. The writing in AvX is a flop.

Indeed...I feel they could have given this book a more emotional and dramatic approach as the other Phoenix stories...It's mostly filled with war and senseless violence...I do enjoy some of the stories like Uncanny but the main storiy could have definitely been better. I wonder what the story would have been like if they had Grant Morrison, Claremont, Lee, and Weddon together on this event...The story would have been more interesting imho....

He is perfection! Even if the art in his run was kinda everywhere, it fitted the tone so well though. Plus when he gave Jean a fare well off it was really emotional. I cried, well like one tear came down lol.

Lol I know the feeling...I loved when she saved the team right before she transcended into the White Hot Room. I also like the fact that he referenced Jean and Ororo's sisterhood..Most writers seem to forget about that.

Woohoo lol. I remember that! Everyone was wondering what happened, Beast had to be all technical and try to elaborate everything, and there, Storm was "Sister.". I remember seeing a scan somewhere where Jean was trying to help Storm adjust to the normal civilized world and Storm showed up naked or something and Jean spat her drink lol

#23 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2783 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Mist said:

I seriously thought it was, and it would have been a beautiful conclusion and send off for Jean if it were her final appearance, but AvX is just confusing the frick out of me.

I pretend Warsong never happened because

a) You can't have an official Phoenix story without Jean Grey

b) it was weird as hell

totally agree phoenix without jean grey is weird as hell

#24 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5834 posts) - - Show Bio
@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE said:

@Madame_Mist said:

I seriously thought it was, and it would have been a beautiful conclusion and send off for Jean if it were her final appearance, but AvX is just confusing the frick out of me.

I pretend Warsong never happened because

a) You can't have an official Phoenix story without Jean Grey

b) it was weird as hell

totally agree phoenix without jean grey is weird as hell

I agree also. I've always found the Phoenix story lines to make more sense when Jean Grey is involved since she was the first character to experience the force.
#25 Edited by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

Brevoort let loose this pithy statement regarding Jean Grey fans and the "White Hot Room":

It's a concept that Greg Pak created for PHOENIX: ENDSONG and it's the lifeboat that Jean Grey fans cling to in their unrelenting insistence that the character is still alive despite all evidence and assurances to the contrary. So it is therefore the greatest story ever written, despite being drawn by Greg Land, whom another faction of humanity hates with a burning passion for no discernible reason. Comics!
#26 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio

@X35 said:

Tom B. let loose this pithy statement regarding Jean Grey fans and the "White Hot Room":

It's a concept that Greg Pak created for PHOENIX: ENDSONG and it's the lifeboat that Jean Grey fans cling to in their unrelenting insistence that the character is still alive despite all evidence and assurances to the contrary. So it is therefore the greatest story ever written, despite being drawn by Greg Land, whom another faction of humanity hates with a burning passion for no discernible reason. Comics!

LMFAO. This may be my favorite thing he's ever said...

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#27 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

@X35 said:

Brevoort let loose this pithy statement regarding Jean Grey fans and the "White Hot Room":

It's a concept that Greg Pak created for PHOENIX: ENDSONG and it's the lifeboat that Jean Grey fans cling to in their unrelenting insistence that the character is still alive despite all evidence and assurances to the contrary. So it is therefore the greatest story ever written, despite being drawn by Greg Land, whom another faction of humanity hates with a burning passion for no discernible reason. Comics!

LOL. Well, she's coming back anyways....just not in a grand Phoenix style. No complaints. That damn bird just won't go away.

She's coming back via time travel but I'll take what I can get.

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