Did Jean Really Have to Die Again in New X-Men 150 so that.....

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Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio

Scott would be free to be with Emma, is Jean's character really worth that little disrespect????? What i got out of grant morrison's run is that Jean got her heart broken by Scott and then she died. i personally think getting your heart broken is worse than death. i know she's in a "better" place ie the white hot room but it was never that much explain about it. and now they use her as a plot device as in when scott mentioned to wolverine that jean never loved him that she was always scared of him in schism and wolverine of all people not scott, not xavier but WOLVERINE named the school after her.

plus..Wolverine will always have a soft spot towards her....she could do anything and he would forgive her

im starting to like the jean and wolverine pairing (if marvel goes though with it) because logan doesnt have any expections, she doesnt have to be perfect because he's not.

Isn't that why scott turned to emma in the first place because emma doesnt blame him for making mistakes???

well im glad she's back so she might have a second chance or third chance at life

#1 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: No she was already ascended into her White Crown Zimabamado Phoenix Form Mark X! She pushed Scott towards Emma psychically so they'd keep the school open and protect mutantdom.

#2 Posted by spetsnaz_gru (235 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean got her heart broken by scott alright. Poor girl. Scott was so cruel.tsk.

So in the earlier part of morrison's run, who was trying to find a crying shoulder about her "boring" marriage and attempting to french kiss the always semi-third party in their relationship? Snikt snikt? I think it starts with a jean and ends with a grey.... You ain't much of a good wife either, jeanie.

#3 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio

@spetsnaz_gru: thats true but it still doesnt mean jean had to die so scott could be with emma they could have gotten a divorce....

anyways does anyone know why jean is looking for lost phoenix pieces like when she took the force from rachel, the stepford cuckoos lost there pieces and why scott of all people told her to find them like so:

also what happens when she finds all the pieces she puts the phoenix force back together so it can what? Bring her back to life? let her go to heaven? its all confusing

#4 Posted by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

Yea plus poor wolverine has been waiting for ever. I don't know now is the best time since um she like 16, but maybe older Jean who knows?

#5 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Come back to life. She's going to come back to life and shut sh*t down. That'll be judgment day for the Uncanny X-Men and most importantly, Emma Frost.

Before that day, Storm, Wolverine, Cyclops, Rachel, Cable and Colossus will have a vision of her coming, appearing from the heavens enamored in all of that scorching hot fiery glory. Burning.

And it'll happen the day after, Emma will see her first, naturally.

And so shall she remember this exact moment -

Apologies for channeling my inner Destiny, but that 60s reject strutting her sh*t in All N00B X-Men does not and will not cut it. I want the REAL Jean Grey back, tyvm.

#6 Posted by time (5066 posts) - - Show Bio

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE said:

Scott would be free to be with Emma, is Jean's character really worth that little disrespect????? What i got out of grant morrison's run is that Jean got her heart broken by Scott and then she died. i personally think getting your heart broken is worse than death. i know she's in a "better" place ie the white hot room but it was never that much explain about it. and now they use her as a plot device as in when scott mentioned to wolverine that jean never loved him that she was always scared of him in schism and wolverine of all people not scott, not xavier but WOLVERINE named the school after her.

plus..Wolverine will always have a soft spot towards her....she could do anything and he would forgive her

im starting to like the jean and wolverine pairing (if marvel goes though with it) because logan doesnt have any expections, she doesnt have to be perfect because he's not.

Isn't that why scott turned to emma in the first place because emma doesnt blame him for making mistakes???

well im glad she's back so she might have a second chance or third chance at life

It's like I said in a previous thread.

I feel Morrison had no understanding of Cyclops and Jean Grey marriage, in one of his interviews a few years old ago, he said that he found Cyclops and Jean Grey relationship boring. So he didn't spend any time on there marriage at all, which is why he spend most of his time on Emma and Scott. He also didn't give Jean Grey any time to deal with the physic affair, it was only one issue that she confronted Emma and Scott about it. Two stories later she was in space, then she came back and was killed off by Xorn. Then the next story, she was in the future and changing the past, giving Scott the nudge to accept Emma offer. Which was like a nail in her coffin, so speak.

After Scott merge with apocalypse, it left a darkness in him and instead of sharing with the one person who can understand, who know what's it's like to be control by a powerful force, full of darkness, you know his wife. He share his feelings with Emma Frost, which makes no sense at all. Not only would Jean grey understand what he was going through, she also was the one who separated him from Apocalypse in the first place, so she experience what he was feeling as well.

Also Jean Grey was reunited with the Phoenix force and she had under control. Then Morrison killed her off.

Then there was Wolverine comforting Emma Frost, I understand why he did, both of them have a lot in common. They both love someone who is married to someone esle. Wouldn't it made more sense for Logan to check on Jean, considering he loves her more that anyone, he cares more for her.

Morrison should of show more respect for her character and Jean Grey does deserve some Justice.

If Jean grow up fast, then I think there be maybe a chance for Logan. He derserve to be with her, cause he would treat her better than Scott.

@spetsnaz_gru said:

Jean got her heart broken by scott alright. Poor girl. Scott was so cruel.tsk.

So in the earlier part of morrison's run, who was trying to find a crying shoulder about her "boring" marriage and attempting to french kiss the always semi-third party in their relationship? Snikt snikt? I think it starts with a jean and ends with a grey.... You ain't much of a good wife either, jeanie.

As said above Morrison had no understanding of there marriage and that's why he ended the way he did. Just for record, when was Emma and Scott relationship interesting. On yeah, Joss Whedon series, which was 3 years ago.

#7 Posted by XsPectre28 (726 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean had to die to set a few things that has happened in the marvel u into play. HOUSE OF M, DECIMATION, MESSIAH COMPLEX MESSIAH WAR SECOND COMING NECROSHEA CHILDRENS CRUSADE

#8 Posted by Squalleon (4628 posts) - - Show Bio

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!

#9 Posted by time (5066 posts) - - Show Bio

I @Squalleon said:

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!


I think your wrong, Jean was killed off, so marvel could focus on Emma and Scott. Jean has never been boring or stale. Morrison killed her off cause he didn't like her, end of story. Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around. Hope wouldn't of been created and Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen.

#10 Edited by Squalleon (4628 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I @Squalleon said:

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!


I think your wrong, Jean was killed off, so marvel could focus on Emma and Scott. Jean has never been boring or stale. Morrison killed her off cause he didn't like her, end of story. Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around. Hope wouldn't of been created and Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen.

Well i am with Morrison on this! Didn't like her either :-)

As you said all this stories could happen because Jean wasn't there!!Think about it!

#11 Posted by time (5066 posts) - - Show Bio
@Squalleon said:

@time said:

I @Squalleon said:

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!


I think your wrong, Jean was killed off, so marvel could focus on Emma and Scott. Jean has never been boring or stale. Morrison killed her off cause he didn't like her, end of story. Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around. Hope wouldn't of been created and Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen.

Well i am with Morrison on this! Didn't like her either :-)
forgive the size of the font, .I couldn't change it. Morrison should of show Jean Grey more respect and he was naive and arrogant. The only character he wrote well was Emma Frost and that's it.

#12 Posted by Squalleon (4628 posts) - - Show Bio

@time: Look i dont say he handle it right!

I just don't like when people blame other characters for mistakes of the writers!The op said that Jean died so Scott can get with Emma!Yeah maybe she is right!

But i pretty much think that Morrison wanted from the beginning to kill Jean thats why he put Emma in the roster!

#13 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

Jean has never been boring or stale.

Yes she has. X-men 90's cartoon is a good example.

@time said:

Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around.

Please elaborate how the mutant race would not have been an endangered species had Jean been alive.

#14 Posted by snyderman567 (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I @Squalleon said:

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!


I think your wrong, Jean was killed off, so marvel could focus on Emma and Scott. Jean has never been boring or stale. Morrison killed her off cause he didn't like her, end of story. Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around. Hope wouldn't of been created and Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen.

Wow! You sound like an EXTREMELY butthurt fangirl.

#15 Edited by Iron_Turtle (583 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I @Squalleon said:

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!


I think your wrong, Jean was killed off, so marvel could focus on Emma and Scott. Jean has never been boring or stale. Morrison killed her off cause he didn't like her, end of story. Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around. Hope wouldn't of been created and Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen

Oh my, upsized and bold typeface. This must be an important post.....

*Reads*

The grammar. It burns.

#16 Edited by time (5066 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

@time said:

Jean has never been boring or stale.

Yes she has. X-men 90's cartoon is a good example.

@time said:

Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around.

Please elaborate how the mutant race would not have been an endangered species had Jean been alive.

The cartoon doesn't count, it's cartoon not comics. So it doesn't matter as much.

Wasn't she the Phoenix, didn't she have it under control, during Morrison run. The point is, she would of repopulated the mutant race a long time ago. Then the Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen. Hope wouldn't been created, you know the Jean Grey rip-off.

@snyderman567 said:

@time said:

I @Squalleon said:

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!


I think your wrong, Jean was killed off, so marvel could focus on Emma and Scott. Jean has never been boring or stale. Morrison killed her off cause he didn't like her, end of story. Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around. Hope wouldn't of been created and Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen.

Wow! You sound like an EXTREMELY butthurt fangirl.

@Iron_Turtle said:

@time said:

I @Squalleon said:

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Jean Grey had to die because she served her role!

Grant saw that Jean Grey's character had become stale soo.........she would either get lost into the background or she would become a nuisance to writers! And he did what had to be done he gave her a glorious death!


I think your wrong, Jean was killed off, so marvel could focus on Emma and Scott. Jean has never been boring or stale. Morrison killed her off cause he didn't like her, end of story. Then mutant race wouldn't of been a endanger species , if she was around. Hope wouldn't of been created and Avengers vs X-Men wouldn't of happen

Oh my, upsized and bold typeface. This must be an important post.....

*Reads*

The grammar. It burns.

I just got a Samsung tablet. 10 inch one. So I'm just getting used to it, I haven't figure out how to change the font size yet.

#17 Edited by snyderman567 (158 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean had to die because she was an extremely boring character.

#18 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol.

Morrison wrote the definitive Jean Grey-Summers of that decade. Stop talking nonsense.

#19 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@AgeofHurricane: Dude. I respect you but ..... no way man. Morrison could not write Summers + Grey if his life DEPENDED on it.

Morrison wanted Grey gone and he got it to do it because Marvel thought he was the best writer who ever lived. Turning Jean back into phoenix was the worst possible idea, Seagle started that crap and Grant should have stepped up to the plate and ended it but he didn't have the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger. Jean after becoming Phoenix and all powerful made the character fall victim to the Superman syndrome (being too powerful to be able to write effectively). So he should have tried to make her interesting but instead he makes her even more unapproachable by making her a all powerful entity (again). So in actuality, he assassinated her personality and character (lets not forget the wolverine in the sun after Cyclops cheating thing) and then killed her by Magneto? Then we get what HE wants to give us...we get the telepathic version of Madonna (fake british accent and all) to court Scott. Dont even start me on that Alan Davis waking from a binger at the pub to write the Twelve and have that awful Cyke-poc-oplypse crap and make Cyke got back to boo-hooing instead of just be brooding. Ok rants done. MISSION CLEAR.

All good fun.

#20 Posted by time (5066 posts) - - Show Bio
@chasereis said:

@AgeofHurricane: Dude. I respect you but ..... no way man. Morrison could not write Summers + Grey if his life DEPENDED on it.

Morrison wanted Grey gone and he got it to do it because Marvel thought he was the best writer who ever lived. Turning Jean back into phoenix was the worst possible idea, Seagle started that crap and Grant should have stepped up to the plate and ended it but he didn't have the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger. Jean after becoming Phoenix and all powerful made the character fall victim to the Superman syndrome (being too powerful to be able to write effectively). So he should have tried to make her interesting but instead he makes her even more unapproachable by making her a all powerful entity (again). So in actuality, he assassinated her personality and character (lets not forget the wolverine in the sun after Cyclops cheating thing) and then killed her by Magneto? Then we get what HE wants to give us...we get the telepathic version of Madonna (fake british accent and all) to court Scott. Dont even start me on that Alan Davis waking from a binger at the pub to write the Twelve and have that awful Cyke-poc-oplypse crap and make Cyke got back to boo-hooing instead of just be brooding. Ok rants done. MISSION CLEA

All good fun.
love what  your saying. Morrison had not understanding of Jean and Scott marriage,  end of story. The only person he made interesting was  Emma. She hasn't been interesting since.
 
@AgeofHurricane
Morrison wrote the  worse version of Jean Grey ever.  
@snyderman567 said:

Jean had to die because she was an extremely boring character.



she wasn't boring, she has more to offer the X-Men than most. Morrison just didn't like her.

#21 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

@AgeofHurricane: Dude. I respect you but ..... no way man. Morrison could not write Summers + Grey if his life DEPENDED on it.

Morrison wanted Grey gone and he got it to do it because Marvel thought he was the best writer who ever lived. Turning Jean back into phoenix was the worst possible idea, Seagle started that crap and Grant should have stepped up to the plate and ended it but he didn't have the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger. Jean after becoming Phoenix and all powerful made the character fall victim to the Superman syndrome (being too powerful to be able to write effectively). So he should have tried to make her interesting but instead he makes her even more unapproachable by making her a all powerful entity (again). So in actuality, he assassinated her personality and character (lets not forget the wolverine in the sun after Cyclops cheating thing) and then killed her by Magneto? Then we get what HE wants to give us...we get the telepathic version of Madonna (fake british accent and all) to court Scott. Dont even start me on that Alan Davis waking from a binger at the pub to write the Twelve and have that awful Cyke-poc-oplypse crap and make Cyke got back to boo-hooing instead of just be brooding. Ok rants done. MISSION CLEAR.

All good fun.

Okay, so i may have been a bit hyperbolic and excited when i added the "Summers" part to her name, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that i believe he wrote the best Jean Grey of that decade. I'm not sure why it's such a problem that Emma Frost and Cyclops were together for an unforgettable time anyways, had they not decided to indulge in some telepathic fornication behind Jean's back, the X-Men would have been done for and Scott would have still been stuck in that perpetual shadow of being the former Apocalypse of some sort. And from what i got from the series, this oh so powerful cosmic entity of fire stuff only came towards the end of his run, where it was quite evident that had he left darling Jean Grey alive and unscathed, all of the forged character dev. in his series would have been for naught. And like you've already stated, a clear amount of GM's run was based off of what had transpired in the Ages of Apoc mess.

After that their relationship was running off of steam, there was nothing more that could have been developed seeing as how Marvel vehemently despise X-Couples having children, lest they lose all marketing attributes as well as credibility.

And she's not even dead. She's alive and kicking, laughing her ass off over in the WHR at what a mess the X-World has become in her absence, and she should stay there for a while longer. Things are pretty trivial right now.

If Morrison didn't handle the marriage in the form that he did, Claremont most probably wouldn't have done anything different. Bless his soul.

#22 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

@time: If Morrison didn't like her as you've excessively expressed, then why didn't he just off her from day 1 ? Why wait until his final issue to dispose of a character he hated so much ? Why endeavor to take time and develop the character, transcending her to new heights, the way he did ?

Use your brain, Time.

#23 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@AgeofHurricane: Lulz. Always a good retort. Let me ask a hard question of you, Hurricane. Should (I use the word loosely) certain characters upon reaching a certain "threshold" be retired from active continuity? Should they disappear for a long while meantime that they (the creative directors) find something more entertaining to do with them? Do the creative teams "paint" themselves into corners?

oh and side note I'm not sure about the X-children thing man. I mean cyke's so damn fertile and everything , he's got Rachel, Cable, X-Man, Stryfe, Power Pack, Leech, Artie, S'ym and Franklin Richards (don't play Sue! You know you hit that! Dirty, Dirty ho...) I mean he's like Bill Clinton in that episode of Family Guy.

#24 Edited by time (5066 posts) - - Show Bio

@AgeofHurricane said:

@time: If Morrison didn't like her as you've excessively expressed, then why didn't he just off her from day 1 ? Why wait until his final issue to dispose of a character he hated so much ? Why endeavor to take time and develop the character, transcending her to new heights, the way he did ?

Use your brain, Time.

Us your brain. First off, he couldn't of just ended Jean and Scott relationship just like that, so he had to think of way, to tear them a part. That was Emma. So made some rubbish up, that Scott couldn't share his feelings with his wife, even those she gave him chances and she would understand better than anyone, in what he going through. Instead he went to Emma Frost, a former villain, who has had a strong impact on there relationship in there past. Yeah that make sense.

Morrison had no understanding of Cyclops and Jean Grey marriage, in one of his interviews a few years old ago, he said that he found Cyclops and Jean Grey relationship boring. So he didn't spend any time on there marriage at all, which is why he spend most of his time on Emma and Scott. He also didn't give Jean Grey any time to deal with the physic affair, it was only one issue that she confronted Emma and Scott about it. Two stories later she was in space, then she came back and was killed off by Xorn. Then the next story, she was in the future and changing the past, giving Scott the nudge to accept Emma offer. Which was like a nail in her coffin, so speak.

Jean grey was in White Room, forcing Scott to move on. So it was like a nail in her coffin, like I said.

And there was that rubbish, if Cyclops walk away from the X-Men, the X-Men wouldn't exist. Which is rubbish by the way, the X-Men have always existed with or without Scott. The only way X-Men could have future is by Jean Grey changing the past, putting Emma with Scott. That's just naive writing. Morrison was naive and arrogant.

#25 Posted by snyderman567 (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@AgeofHurricane said:

@time: If Morrison didn't like her as you've excessively expressed, then why didn't he just off her from day 1 ? Why wait until his final issue to dispose of a character he hated so much ? Why endeavor to take time and develop the character, transcending her to new heights, the way he did ?

Use your brain, Time.

Us your brain. First off, he couldn't of just ended Jean and Scott relationship just like that, so he had to think of way, to tear them a part. That was Emma. So made some rubbish up, that Scott couldn't share his feelings with his wife, even those she gave him chances and she would understand better than anyone, in what he going through. Instead he went to Emma Frost, a former villain, who has had a strong impact on there relationship in there past. Yeah that make sense.

Morrison had no understanding of Cyclops and Jean Grey marriage, in one of his interviews a few years old ago, he said that he found Cyclops and Jean Grey relationship boring. So he didn't spend any time on there marriage at all, which is why he spend most of his time on Emma and Scott. He also didn't give Jean Grey any time to deal with the physic affair, it was only one issue that she confronted Emma and Scott about it. Two stories later she was in space, then she came back and was killed off by Xorn. Then the next story, she was in the future and changing the past, giving Scott the nudge to accept Emma offer. Which was like a nail in her coffin, so speak.

Jean grey was in White Room, forcing Scott to move on. So it was like a nail in her coffin, like I said.

And there was that rubbish, if Cyclops walk away from the X-Men, the X-Men wouldn't exist. Which is rubbish by the way, the X-Men have always existed with or without Scott. The only way X-Men could have future is by Jean Grey changing the past, putting Emma with Scott. That's just naive writing. Morrison was naive and arrogant.

Also, please check your grammar next time you go off on your ignorant fangirl rants.

#26 Posted by Mercy_ (92817 posts) - - Show Bio
@AgeofHurricane

@chasereis said:

@AgeofHurricane: Dude. I respect you but ..... no way man. Morrison could not write Summers + Grey if his life DEPENDED on it.

Morrison wanted Grey gone and he got it to do it because Marvel thought he was the best writer who ever lived. Turning Jean back into phoenix was the worst possible idea, Seagle started that crap and Grant should have stepped up to the plate and ended it but he didn't have the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger. Jean after becoming Phoenix and all powerful made the character fall victim to the Superman syndrome (being too powerful to be able to write effectively). So he should have tried to make her interesting but instead he makes her even more unapproachable by making her a all powerful entity (again). So in actuality, he assassinated her personality and character (lets not forget the wolverine in the sun after Cyclops cheating thing) and then killed her by Magneto? Then we get what HE wants to give us...we get the telepathic version of Madonna (fake british accent and all) to court Scott. Dont even start me on that Alan Davis waking from a binger at the pub to write the Twelve and have that awful Cyke-poc-oplypse crap and make Cyke got back to boo-hooing instead of just be brooding. Ok rants done. MISSION CLEAR.

All good fun.

Okay, so i may have been a bit hyperbolic and excited when i added the "Summers" part to her name, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that i believe he wrote the best Jean Grey of that decade. I'm not sure why it's such a problem that Emma Frost and Cyclops were together for an unforgettable time anyways, had they not decided to indulge in some telepathic fornication behind Jean's back, the X-Men would have been done for and Scott would have still been stuck in that perpetual shadow of being the former Apocalypse of some sort. And from what i got from the series, this oh so powerful cosmic entity of fire stuff only came towards the end of his run, where it was quite evident that had he left darling Jean Grey alive and unscathed, all of the forged character dev. in his series would have been for naught. And like you've already stated, a clear amount of GM's run was based off of what had transpired in the Ages of Apoc mess.

After that their relationship was running off of steam, there was nothing more that could have been developed seeing as how Marvel vehemently despise X-Couples having children, lest they lose all marketing attributes as well as credibility.

And she's not even dead. She's alive and kicking, laughing her ass off over in the WHR at what a mess the X-World has become in her absence, and she should stay there for a while longer. Things are pretty trivial right now.

If Morrison didn't handle the marriage in the form that he did, Claremont most probably wouldn't have done anything different. Bless his soul.

I like this post an awful lot.
Moderator
#27 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Congratulations, you completely missed the entire point of her death. Not surprising since you're a Hope fan.  
 
Please drown yourself so as to not pollute the gene pool. 

#28 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_: Which part? Me and Hurricane have some good discussions, just don't bring up Bendis for christsakes. (joking)

#29 Edited by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt
@time: 
@Mercy_ said:



                    @AgeofHurricane

@chasereis said:

@AgeofHurricane: Dude. I respect you but ..... no way man. Morrison could not write Summers + Grey if his life DEPENDED on it.

Morrison wanted Grey gone and he got it to do it because Marvel thought he was the best writer who ever lived. Turning Jean back into phoenix was the worst possible idea, Seagle started that crap and Grant should have stepped up to the plate and ended it but he didn't have the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger. Jean after becoming Phoenix and all powerful made the character fall victim to the Superman syndrome (being too powerful to be able to write effectively). So he should have tried to make her interesting but instead he makes her even more unapproachable by making her a all powerful entity (again). So in actuality, he assassinated her personality and character (lets not forget the wolverine in the sun after Cyclops cheating thing) and then killed her by Magneto? Then we get what HE wants to give us...we get the telepathic version of Madonna (fake british accent and all) to court Scott. Dont even start me on that Alan Davis waking from a binger at the pub to write the Twelve and have that awful Cyke-poc-oplypse crap and make Cyke got back to boo-hooing instead of just be brooding. Ok rants done. MISSION CLEAR.

All good fun.

Okay, so i may have been a bit hyperbolic and excited when i added the "Summers" part to her name, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that i believe he wrote the best Jean Grey of that decade. I'm not sure why it's such a problem that Emma Frost and Cyclops were together for an unforgettable time anyways, had they not decided to indulge in some telepathic fornication behind Jean's back, the X-Men would have been done for and Scott would have still been stuck in that perpetual shadow of being the former Apocalypse of some sort. And from what i got from the series, this oh so powerful cosmic entity of fire stuff only came towards the end of his run, where it was quite evident that had he left darling Jean Grey alive and unscathed, all of the forged character dev. in his series would have been for naught. And like you've already stated, a clear amount of GM's run was based off of what had transpired in the Ages of Apoc mess.

After that their relationship was running off of steam, there was nothing more that could have been developed seeing as how Marvel vehemently despise X-Couples having children, lest they lose all marketing attributes as well as credibility.

And she's not even dead. She's alive and kicking, laughing her ass off over in the WHR at what a mess the X-World has become in her absence, and she should stay there for a while longer. Things are pretty trivial right now.

If Morrison didn't handle the marriage in the form that he did, Claremont most probably wouldn't have done anything different. Bless his soul.



I like this post an awful lot.

                   

               
well now that emma and scott is oer maybe jean can get them back together if not then scott could go back to jean 
and if it was over with jean and scott why are they back as teens??? not to mention that teen jean said in anxm2 that she doesnt want to be dead 
if teen jean goes back to the past and doesnt come back full grown in the present that would suck and there would be no point in bringing her into the future present
#30 Posted by Pyrogram (40779 posts) - - Show Bio

marvel abuse jean so much

#31 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt
@time: 
@Mercy_: 
@chasereis: 
@Pyrogram said:


                   

marvel abuse jean so much



                   

               

couldnt agree more and they turned her death into a leaving joke---not cool: 

#32 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio

i think its apocalypse fault jean and scott broke up because scott turned more darker after his experence with the evil being:

i guess bad guys win after all :'(

#33 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: Honestly I would not expect O5 Jean to be with Scott after this (unless she gets mind wiped by Xavier later). Marvel's editorial staff in all their triteness, love to screw up long standing relationships just to rekindle them to generate short term sales. But DC does it too. Look at Clark and Lois or Peter And Mary Jane. Scott and Jean are no different, in fact they are actually a bit worse when one thinks of it. While lois and mary jane are late entries to each others respective love interests / characters, Jean and Scott were designed to be together at their creation. That is why (to me) any relationship that Scott has had not involving Jean (with Maddie and Lee as exceptions) felt forced and unnatural when taken in as a whole. However when you think of that, it explains a lot of marvels intended readership, the people they write to aren't the ones that are readers for 10+ years or (in my opinion) the people who BUY back issues to see the full story. Each writer seems to treat the soon to be 40 years of continuity as a non-canon burden and only accept marketing data on recent events as a "liquid" continuity to write from. Vapid, I know but that is all you can expect from most X-Writers since Lobdell.

Oh btw, the story you posted an excerpt from was the Twelve and the Search for Cyclops, two notorious bad ideas from Alan Davis and Joe Harris. Personally I still wait for a written apology for how stupid this storyline was from every writer that even employed parts of it since.

#34 Posted by DEGRAAF (7895 posts) - - Show Bio

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE said:

i think its apocalypse fault jean and scott broke up because scott turned more darker after his experence with the evil being:

i guess bad guys win after all :'(

Where is this from?

I always thought they killed Jean off bc she was just to powerful and lowered the threats against the x-men. I feel like if they brought her back in all her glory from the white hot room she could join a space team and work on larger threats. She would never have to go back to earth (at least not for a long time). She is still a good character she just needs room now that she has become so powerful. Have her find new love with someone else out in the universe.

#35 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@DEGRAAF: Its called X-Men: The Search For Cyclops, its an 2000 epilogue to the abominable "The Twelve Story" Arc.

and no...Jean was killed off by writer's privilege courtesy Morrison's X-Men run. Nothing more elaborate than a writer flexing his muscles.

#36 Posted by time (5066 posts) - - Show Bio
@psnyderman567: how am I being arrogant by the way, care to explain?
#37 Posted by jhole (48 posts) - - Show Bio

Whilst I enjoyed the majority of morrisons run, i thought his treatment of jean and Scott was horrible. It's a shame as this was the first xmen arc that I bought (having been a massive fan of the Scott/jean relationship since the 90s cartoon), however over the years I've collected and read nearly everything 80s onwards. Just started on the X-Treme X-Men era then I'll be done. My main problem with New X-men 150 was that her death felt cheap and pointless. I'd love to see jean back but since they had the chance at the end of AvX and didn't do it, I just can't see it happening. They seem to have something against bringing jean back.

#38 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3599 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Grant Morrison and have read many of his other stories, such as "Flex Mentallo", "All Star Superman" and a few other issues of comics he has written for here and there. I consider him very talented, extremely interesting and capable of bringing a Silver Age sense of energy to a genre that often falls back on guns to create drama. That being said, I think his run on "New X-Men" would have been much better if (beats dead horse) there were stronger creative/editorial oversight over what some of his changes would mean for the characters. I don't think Jean Grey had to die in New X-Men, but Morrison has admitted in interviews that his interpretation of the X-Men mythos made him think that Phoenix had to come back and die in order to make it feel complete. I think he likes Jean as a character somewhat, but didn't really know how to kick off a major change without getting rid of her. He did a great job writing her as in control of the Phoenix, so I don't think he didn't find anything interesting for her - I just think he was using her and Magneto's deaths as a way to break out of the stasis the X-Men franchise increasingly found itself in.

#39 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with Jean's death is that it closed so many awesome potential story lines and left a lot of speculation and what ifs?

#40 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides: You know Phoenix, I honestly don't like the Phoenix force. I can't see it as anything different than that Captain Universe thing, the infinity gauntlet, Superman or Galactus. They are all just too powerful to be remotely interesting because at the end of the day what cant they do? Where is the conflict to enjoy? Writers too often favor nostalgia that waters down a character in X-Titles. But what can I expect when the changing of the guard is so often I suppose...look what they did to that awesome gambit surviving the massacre of the X-Men / Bishop angle. Christ, Bishop...what a waste of a good character too. You cannot come back from trying to kill an infant. Permanently tainted now, sad really.

Oh and before I forget, you are perfectly stated in it is less Morrison's fault than editorial's, so kudos for that. Additionally, personally I enjoy the vast majority of Morrison's DC work, but still on the fence about Batman, Inc. Let's judge that one its fall out, shall we...

@Madame_Mist: I very much agree. I would have like to see them work out the infidelity issue, I would find their relationship much more interesting trying to hammer out that dent than to see Scott move on (again), which honestly is tired and trite at this point. Actually I can see some comedy in her brain scanning him for solicitous thoughts like a jealous girlfriend checks her boyfriends phone for booty calls and sexting. That would been AWESOME.

#41 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

@PhoenixoftheTides: You know Phoenix, I honestly don't like the Phoenix force. I can't see it as anything different than that Captain Universe thing, the infinity gauntlet, Superman or Galactus. They are all just too powerful to be remotely interesting because at the end of the day what cant they do? Where is the conflict to enjoy? Writers too often favor nostalgia that waters down a character in X-Titles. But what can I expect when the changing of the guard is so often I suppose...look what they did to that awesome gambit surviving the massacre of the X-Men / Bishop angle. Christ, Bishop...what a waste of a good character too. You cannot come back from trying to kill an infant. Permanently tainted now, sad really.

@Madame_Mist: I very much agree. I would have like to see them work out the infidelity issue, I would find their relationship much more interesting trying to hammer out that dent than to see Scott move on (again), which honestly is tired and trite at this point. Actually I can see some comedy in her brain scanning him for solicitous thoughts like a jealous girlfriend checks her boyfriends phone for booty calls and sexting. That would been AWESOME.

IKR. anyways i cant wait until teen jean finds out about the affair and sees what she'll do about it.....would she never get back together with teen scott or go in a different direction wolverine

#42 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

@AgeofHurricane: Lulz. Always a good retort. Let me ask a hard question of you, Hurricane. Should (I use the word loosely) certain characters upon reaching a certain "threshold" be retired from active continuity? Should they disappear for a long while meantime that they (the creative directors) find something more entertaining to do with them? Do the creative teams "paint" themselves into corners?

oh and side note I'm not sure about the X-children thing man. I mean cyke's so damn fertile and everything , he's got Rachel, Cable, X-Man, Stryfe, Power Pack, Leech, Artie, S'ym and Franklin Richards (don't play Sue! You know you hit that! Dirty, Dirty ho...) I mean he's like Bill Clinton in that episode of Family Guy.

Thank you (where have you been all my life ?). I think so, hopefully this doesn't exactly compromise my previous argument. But yeah, i think so, give the fresh-blood a chance to shine and develop while raking in the moneys, and have the veterans take a break. Otherwise it'll be...digression.

And yeeeeah he may have quite the brood already, but has of yet to conceive a child that wasn't as a result of Sinister's obsessive tampering.

LOL. Not the best of analogies.

#43 Edited by Mr Marvel82 (121 posts) - - Show Bio

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE said:

i think its apocalypse fault jean and scott broke up because scott turned more darker after his experence with the evil being:

i guess bad guys win after all :'(

I never really saw any of Apocalypse's influence in Scott from the time Search for Cyclops ended through the end of Morrison's Run. I was looking for it.

Scott blamed Apocalypse's influence on his willingness to share psychic intimacy with Emma Frost. But, I think Emma called him out on it (or maybe it was a remark directed at Jean. Cant remember.) But she says something like 'Scott was possessed by nothing more that the reality of his dull marriage...'

While I don't wholeheartedly agree with her statement. I do believe that Scott shouldn't have been able to use his former possession by Apocalypse as an excuse for his psychic affair.

Scott's actions in Utopia/ Schism / AvsX / Marvel Now seem to be more of what I was looking for immediately after Search for Cyclops. This current Scott seems to bear more of Apocalypse influence. But I'm sure it's purely unintentional. By now, the writers at Marvel have undoubtedly forgotten about Search for Cyclops.

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

I like Grant Morrison and have read many of his other stories, such as "Flex Mentallo", "All Star Superman" and a few other issues of comics he has written for here and there. I consider him very talented, extremely interesting and capable of bringing a Silver Age sense of energy to a genre that often falls back on guns to create drama. That being said, I think his run on "New X-Men" would have been much better if (beats dead horse) there were stronger creative/editorial oversight over what some of his changes would mean for the characters. I don't think Jean Grey had to die in New X-Men, but Morrison has admitted in interviews that his interpretation of the X-Men mythos made him think that Phoenix had to come back and die in order to make it feel complete. I think he likes Jean as a character somewhat, but didn't really know how to kick off a major change without getting rid of her. He did a great job writing her as in control of the Phoenix, so I don't think he didn't find anything interesting for her - I just think he was using her and Magneto's deaths as a way to break out of the stasis the X-Men franchise increasingly found itself in.

I agree with this. If anyone here has followed my posting history, you'll see that I'm both a fan of Morrison's New X-men and of Jean Grey.

When I look at how Morrison was developing Jean's character, I almost think she did indeed have to die at the end of his run. Especially if the more recent X-men stories, have always been in the working.

As Morrison wrote Jean, she was totally in control of her powers. She was at the height of mastering her telepathy and telekinesis. Professor Xavier was grooming her to be the next Headmistress of the Institute. She was shown to be a leader in the issue where the U-men attacked the school while she was the only senior X-man around. She was becoming the face of the school in press conferences with the media. She was, in some eyes, being written as 'losing her humanity' because of her growing Phoenix potential. However, I saw many of her humanistic traits explored- the ones that initially made me a fan of her character anyway.

The first moment she was able to detect Dust, while overseas. She kneels down, smiling and introduces herself and the team. She could feel how scared Dust was and wanted to easy the tension. That subtle moment always stuck with me when reading- good writing of Jean's compassion.

We saw her deal with, in a professional manner, the new arrivals at the mansion. She tried to keep it peaceful with Emma for a while. She even took a moment to acknowledge Sage in one panel, when she and Bishop were investigating Emma's murder. We all know the history with these 3 women. It couldn't have been easy to work alongside them. Yet she did, when freeing Charles from the psychic prison Cassandra Nova placed in his mind.

We saw her tending after Charles Xavier, when he first came in contact with Cassandra Nova in cerebro. Yet she stood her own, when he asked her to "fetch his chair" while still showing him respect.

There were so many moments that I appreciated in Morrison's writing of Jean.

I think the most impactful deaths, are always those where you see a person reaching their potential, and then their life ends suddenly. I believe Morrison did this with Jean. (I still think a suprise stroke at the hands of Magneto-clone thing was a strange way to go, but meh.)

In many ways, the lack of Jean's presence has allowed the X-men to get to their current state in comics. We all know that if Jean were still around, some of most recent events simply wouldn't have gone down. Not with the bold, Jean Grey Morrison was writing.

...Not to mention any of the esoteric Here Comes Tomorrow 'watering the universe with the phoenix's hearts blood to mend a possible future and ascend to the White hot room, Phoenix of the Crown' things. Too open to interpretation. ;)

#44 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr Marvel82: Good post! If I may I would like to retort.

I just see too much wasted motion Morrison's run. It reads more like his superman stuff than anything, basically throwing out everything that came before it in a flaccid attempt to quicken the X-universe again. The X-Men going public, clear movement away from social integration really sinking the fact that there is a valid difference between sapiens and superior. It may very well be good writing but it is not good X-Men writing. I mean were it to be about an unrelated group with completely different characters it would be a really enthralling story (or rather stories) but to me, it always felt like Grant wrote a complete story then forcibly adapted the X-Men into it. Cyclops being one of the largest changes away from his established personality. Predictable or not, likable or not, it is from a writing stand point, an ethically deplorable action to force an unrelatable personality change to a high profile, established character that is considered a classical archetype.

Even then, Cyclops has been through another more exciting downturn actually and that was when he got married to Maddie (as it was a mystery then that she was a clone of Jean from a villain that didn't even come into play for almost 4 years later) and becoming a father to Christopher, then losing the leadership role to Storm (a then up and coming character). Fantastic idea...put him on the shelf till you need him. Modern writers should pray for such foresight. The road back to Xavier's dream was far more interesting concept and completely in tune with his actual personality. I mean he AGONIZED every painful decision he made then because he knew what was right to do and was utterly compelled to do so even though it hurt him personally. That is Cyclops. Scott is stoic, brooding and strong with a clear sense of loyalty and overwhelming sense of right and wrong in the best possible sense but is so human that his heart just bleeds for all the harm he tries not to do. The modern Scott is quite different based on what was done to him by Morrison and sadly Cyclops has been whittled down to a second generation magneto and a borderline racist against humans.

Jean was another such victim of this, phoenix never should have been reintroduced to the Jean character again. In the simplest of terms it is tired and trite. This especially true after being invoked in X-Title flashbacks SO often to make it an official change? Geez, it is much akin to making a popular music artist or actor/actress to perform ONLY the first hit single or film they have ever done, when they have 26 studios albums or 13 feature length films. This is not real growth and it is just there to create the feeling of nostalgia that causes eventual nausea. The characters have much more to offer and such a rich history it just isn't satisfying in the long term to do these types of things. It wastes publication time and creates a mess that some other writer has to wipe up in order to keep the pace going. E For Extinction to Planet X was for all intents and purposes one giant "X" equivalent of "One More Day" to me...

Rant Done....MISSION CLEAR!

#45 Posted by Mr Marvel82 (121 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

@Mr Marvel82: Good post! If I may I would like to retort.

I just see too much wasted motion Morrison's run. It reads more like his superman stuff than anything, basically throwing out everything that came before it in a flaccid attempt to quicken the X-universe again. The X-Men going public, clear movement away from social integration really sinking the fact that there is a valid difference between sapiens and superior. It may very well be good writing but it is not good X-Men writing. I mean were it to be about an unrelated group with completely different characters it would be a really enthralling story (or rather stories) but to me, it always felt like Grant wrote a complete story then forcibly adapted the X-Men into it. Cyclops being one of the largest changes away from his established personality. Predictable or not, likable or not, it is from a writing stand point, an ethically deplorable action to force an unrelatable personality change to a high profile, established character that is considered a classical archetype.

Even then, Cyclops has been through another more exciting downturn actually and that was when he got married to Maddie (as it was a mystery then that she was a clone of Jean from a villain that didn't even come into play for almost 4 years later) and becoming a father to Christopher, then losing the leadership role to Storm (a then up and coming character). Fantastic idea...put him on the shelf till you need him. Modern writers should pray for such foresight. The road back to Xavier's dream was far more interesting concept and completely in tune with his actual personality. I mean he AGONIZED every painful decision he made then because he knew what was right to do and was utterly compelled to do so even though it hurt him personally. That is Cyclops. Scott is stoic, brooding and strong with a clear sense of loyalty and overwhelming sense of right and wrong in the best possible sense but is so human that his heart just bleeds for all the harm he tries not to do. The modern Scott is quite different based on what was done to him by Morrison and sadly Cyclops has been whittled down to a second generation magneto and a borderline racist against humans.

Jean was another such victim of this, phoenix never should have been reintroduced to the Jean character again. In the simplest of terms it is tired and trite. This especially true after being invoked in X-Title flashbacks SO often to make it an official change? Geez, it is much akin to making a popular music artist or actor/actress to perform ONLY the first hit single or film they have ever done, when they have 26 studios albums or 13 feature length films. This is not real growth and it is just there to create the feeling of nostalgia that causes eventual nausea. The characters have much more to offer and such a rich history it just isn't satisfying in the long term to do these types of things. It wastes publication time and creates a mess that some other writer has to wipe up in order to keep the pace going. E For Extinction to Planet X was for all intents and purposes one giant "X" equivalent of "One More Day" to me...

Rant Done....MISSION CLEAR!

Your perspective is really interesting- especially your notes about Scott's demise at the pen of Morrison.

I'm not sure if it's because I started collecting X-men around '96 and then worked my way backwards, finding issues here and there which were pivotal in the X-men's history or not... But I only share some of your views of what Scott was prior to Morrison and afterward.

I agree that Scott (and Jean for that matter) were written as idealistic cookie cutter heroes who, if presented with a choice between good and bad would always choose good. But what I think Morrison did was build on top of what had already been established about these 2 characters' personalities. He took away the Black and White/ Good and Bad options and put them in the middle of a new Grey area. (only slight pun intended.)

Morrison wrote Scott to have the opportunity to sleep with Emma in Hong Kong. Scott had a history of giving the googly eyes to sexy psychics- Psylocke/ Revanche and Maddie (knowing that she was not the recently deceased Jean Grey.) Traditional Scott, would never have committed physical adultery due to his morals. But he's an introvert. Everything takes place within that stoic dome of his. So Morrison made the affair to be purely psychic.

This hadn't been done in the X-men's history before. What would our boyscout do now? Would he judge this as sin? Could he judge this as sin??

I thought this was a great way to put Scott into a different unknown situation and see how he would respond. Scott's brooding/ confused reaction to the affair, when confronted by Jean, seemed perfectly in character to me. I even believed Scott to be a character with strong values after Morrison's run. Like I posted earlier, it wasn't until some of the more recent stories (circa Utopia) that I began to see Scott's darker side coming to forefront.

As far as Morrison's introduction of a blooming mutant population, and the X-men going public... I think that was his way of putting the whole team into a new 'Grey' situation. How would the X-men react? Why were they in hiding so long, if they had such a righteous purpose? Why did the school never really function as a school? And the New X-men costumes.. I miss them so much. T.T

Hate to bring things back to Jean.. but let's face it, I loves that Red Head. I don't credit Morrison as bringing Phoenix back to Jean. Jean was already assuming the name Phoenix back in 96 when I started reading X-men comics. In the time leading up to Morrison's run, the various writers were slowly integrating Phoenix mythos back into the Jean Grey of Hellfire in Hong Kong, Operation Zero Tolerance, Apocalypse: the Twelve, Revolution, and Search for Cyclops etc. Morrison saw this, and built upon what was handed to him.

While I surely don't think Morrison's handling of the X-men was perfect. I appreciate some of the new concepts he introduced to shake up the status quo. And when reading Xtreme X-men simultaneously as New X-men was being published, Morrison's stories seemed to have more of a thought-provoking appeal. While Xtreme seemed like traditional X-men storytelling.

#46 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr Marvel82 said:

@chasereis said:

@Mr Marvel82: Good post! If I may I would like to retort.

I just see too much wasted motion Morrison's run. It reads more like his superman stuff than anything, basically throwing out everything that came before it in a flaccid attempt to quicken the X-universe again. The X-Men going public, clear movement away from social integration really sinking the fact that there is a valid difference between sapiens and superior. It may very well be good writing but it is not good X-Men writing. I mean were it to be about an unrelated group with completely different characters it would be a really enthralling story (or rather stories) but to me, it always felt like Grant wrote a complete story then forcibly adapted the X-Men into it. Cyclops being one of the largest changes away from his established personality. Predictable or not, likable or not, it is from a writing stand point, an ethically deplorable action to force an unrelatable personality change to a high profile, established character that is considered a classical archetype.

Even then, Cyclops has been through another more exciting downturn actually and that was when he got married to Maddie (as it was a mystery then that she was a clone of Jean from a villain that didn't even come into play for almost 4 years later) and becoming a father to Christopher, then losing the leadership role to Storm (a then up and coming character). Fantastic idea...put him on the shelf till you need him. Modern writers should pray for such foresight. The road back to Xavier's dream was far more interesting concept and completely in tune with his actual personality. I mean he AGONIZED every painful decision he made then because he knew what was right to do and was utterly compelled to do so even though it hurt him personally. That is Cyclops. Scott is stoic, brooding and strong with a clear sense of loyalty and overwhelming sense of right and wrong in the best possible sense but is so human that his heart just bleeds for all the harm he tries not to do. The modern Scott is quite different based on what was done to him by Morrison and sadly Cyclops has been whittled down to a second generation magneto and a borderline racist against humans.

Jean was another such victim of this, phoenix never should have been reintroduced to the Jean character again. In the simplest of terms it is tired and trite. This especially true after being invoked in X-Title flashbacks SO often to make it an official change? Geez, it is much akin to making a popular music artist or actor/actress to perform ONLY the first hit single or film they have ever done, when they have 26 studios albums or 13 feature length films. This is not real growth and it is just there to create the feeling of nostalgia that causes eventual nausea. The characters have much more to offer and such a rich history it just isn't satisfying in the long term to do these types of things. It wastes publication time and creates a mess that some other writer has to wipe up in order to keep the pace going. E For Extinction to Planet X was for all intents and purposes one giant "X" equivalent of "One More Day" to me...

Rant Done....MISSION CLEAR!

Your perspective is really interesting- especially your notes about Scott's demise at the pen of Morrison.

I'm not sure if it's because I started collecting X-men around '96 and then worked my way backwards, finding issues here and there which were pivotal in the X-men's history or not... But I only share some of your views of what Scott was prior to Morrison and afterward.

I agree that Scott (and Jean for that matter) were written as idealistic cookie cutter heroes who, if presented with a choice between good and bad would always choose good. But what I think Morrison did was build on top of what had already been established about these 2 characters' personalities. He took away the Black and White/ Good and Bad options and put them in the middle of a new Grey area. (only slight pun intended.)

Morrison wrote Scott to have the opportunity to sleep with Emma in Hong Kong. Scott had a history of giving the googly eyes to sexy psychics- Psylocke/ Revanche and Maddie (knowing that she was not the recently deceased Jean Grey.) Traditional Scott, would never have committed physical adultery due to his morals. But he's an introvert. Everything takes place within that stoic dome of his. So Morrison made the affair to be purely psychic.

This hadn't been done in the X-men's history before. What would our boyscout do now? Would he judge this as sin? Could he judge this as sin??

I thought this was a great way to put Scott into a different unknown situation and see how he would respond. Scott's brooding/ confused reaction to the affair, when confronted by Jean, seemed perfectly in character to me. I even believed Scott to be a character with strong values after Morrison's run. Like I posted earlier, it wasn't until some of the more recent stories (circa Utopia) that I began to see Scott's darker side coming to forefront.

As far as Morrison's introduction of a blooming mutant population, and the X-men going public... I think that was his way of putting the whole team into a new 'Grey' situation. How would the X-men react? Why were they in hiding so long, if they had such a righteous purpose? Why did the school never really function as a school? And the New X-men costumes.. I miss them so much. T.T

Hate to bring things back to Jean.. but let's face it, I loves that Red Head. I don't credit Morrison as bringing Phoenix back to Jean. Jean was already assuming the name Phoenix back in 96 when I started reading X-men comics. In the time leading up to Morrison's run, the various writers were slowly integrating Phoenix mythos back into the Jean Grey of Hellfire in Hong Kong, Operation Zero Tolerance, Apocalypse: the Twelve, Revolution, and Search for Cyclops etc. Morrison saw this, and built upon what was handed to him.

While I surely don't think Morrison's handling of the X-men was perfect. I appreciate some of the new concepts he introduced to shake up the status quo. And when reading Xtreme X-men simultaneously as New X-men was being published, Morrison's stories seemed to have more of a thought-provoking appeal. While Xtreme seemed like traditional X-men storytelling.

scott is a two-timer who got away with it.....i want to see emma and jean kick his butt........also he had maddie but wanted to be with jean....scott and his endless love triangles....when will it end and now hes single, i feel bad for the next girl

#47 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr Marvel82: Nice retort...You started reading at the start of a change in the X-Titles to be certain. I started in October of '83. New Mutants Number 8, I remember that was the issue where Dani ( was wearing that black two piece, even as kid I loved that Buscema art...

Anyway to answer your (indirect) query, it was Steven Seagle who started the Phoenix (re)introduction after that terrible Zero tolerance debacle. A bomb in cyclops chest? And going back to Anchorage? Really? they had Wolverine babbling British slang too if I recall correctly as well. Digressing...

However nothing really with "phoenix" happened until Morrison and to be honest Grant should just said "no". Sadly he chose short term triteness over long term ingenuity. All he really did is take character that needed a big push and make her as uninteresting as a 1970's Superman. Much like you said it was something new, the adultery that is. It would have been far more entertaining to see them reconcile in an arduous manner than see the "crown-y white phoenixes" telling him "live, because I only die on you". ugh. At the time of reading ANX 150, I was actually thinking at least he could not possibly screw her anymore than killing her. Snap, I was wrong 'cause Here Comes Tomorrow...

I do appreciate his earlier story lines in his run, as you said they added new elements into the mix, but were they really essential in the long term of the X-Men? Nah, not really. However often I hear that very same phrase of "creating a scenario to see things react". That is an science experiment, not a story for entertainment.

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: You really don't like cheaters, huh? Dont blame ya...

#48 Edited by Mr Marvel82 (121 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

Aha! I knew we had to have come into X-men at two different times... Makes a bit more sense now.

Yes... Steven Seagle. Thanks for that. I didn't feel like diving into the archives to find those books.

"All he really did is take character that needed a big push and make her as uninteresting as a 1970's Superman."

I'm sorry, was this in reference to Jean? Really? I thought she was fantastically interesting as Morrison attempted to reconcile some of the earlier convolution with Jean and the Phoenix, in his run. But then again, I get off on the exploration of psychic powers in any story arc.

The moment where Charles did the silverware test to measure Jean's telekinetic sensitivity... Oh man. I loved that Jean realized that there were parts of the Phoenix force she didn't even understand. Again, it was that whole 'look she's tapping into her full potential. Let's see what wondrous thing she will become' type of moment. And then she died. As I type this, I'm seeing a parallel between her and that grotesque mutant child that was killed while trying to get medicine for his sick mom. (I wish I could site which issue I'm pulling from. Maybe I'll edit tomorrow.) There's a moment where Xorn states that this kid would've become something beautiful if he had survived this temporary stage in his mutation. His death was also meaningful to me, though he was only a character which lived through 4 or so pages.

"It would have been far more entertaining to see them reconcile in an arduous manner than see the "crown-y white phoenixes" telling him "live, because I only die on you"."

Here Comes Tomorrow is my least favorite set of books to discuss. Still, I found them fascinating and became of fan of Silvestri's art afterward. But the issues and the esoteric explanation of the Phoenix and White Hot Room and all that jazz... it's too open to interpretation.

I think Here Comes Tomorrow was Morrison's attempt to show just how meaningful the life of Jean Grey was to the X-Universe. I read it as an epitaph of sorts, after killing-off the character just 1 issue earlier. The blonde girls said at the time Jean was killed, 'something has gone wrong with the world.' Fun stuff man (or woman?)

I'm curious now. Which X-story arc/ writers have you enjoyed the most? Clearly Morrison and New X-Men was not your cup of tea.

And I feel, I must apologize. My recent posts have not been very specific to the topic at hand. Forgive me.

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: scott is a two-timer who got away with it.....i want to see emma and jean kick his butt........also he had maddie but wanted to be with jean....scott and his endless love triangles....when will it end and now hes single, i feel bad for the next girl

LOL. Is a married man who has a recurring dream about his attractive co-worker a two-timer? What if she flaunts her sexuality and expresses desire to be romantically involved with him? What if he would never in his heart of hearts cheat on his wife in reality? Yet his dreams won't stop..

I'm not looking for answers to these questions. But while reading New X-men, these were conversations that were sparked between my nerdy comic book friends and myself. I don't know that I judge Scott too harshly... And I certainly wouldn't want to see a tag team event where Jean and Emma get together and lay down a Smack Down on Mr Summers. Jean's currently just a teenager. And said events haven't happened to her yet. :)

#49 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr Marvel82: You are well stated sir. And yes I was referring to Jean at the time, BTW. I was multitasking far too much while replying to you to be clear, sorry for that. And as far as Seagle's work is concerned don't fret too much over that as it was largely forgettable and in no way do I fault you for it. Hell, I try to forget. Thankfully Bob Harras ebing the sage-like being he is, deposed Kelly and Seagle from making that Phoenix sequel. Bob stated he would never see the Phoenix as Jean while he was editor. But he left in 2000 and guess who took over? Yup, Joe (I am a fucking sell-out) Quesada. I cannot believe I thought so much of him and told him so at the banquet at Dragon*Con in '97. Although I still like Jimmy though.

Let me state that I am someone who came into comics as the end of the Dark Phoenix saga came to a close, the entire Morrison concept of Re-phoenix-ing (forgive) Jean was just sickening. Sorry for being overtly blunt, but it is the most accurate word, she didn't need it. All of Kurt's work for naught. And I would take Busiek over Morrison any day of the week. I've always thought of Jean as the result of the beautiful girl next door growing up and marrying the nerdiest kid in school. She was a female role model. Especially after reading her story in X-Factor and the early 90's of X-Men. She wanted NOTHING to do with Phoenix or Maddie. She had a really saddening story of love with Cyclops due to it. I felt so sorry for her, trying to be herself, find her identity from all the people trying to either assume her life or being an actual clone. All the while those people made her true love fall for them, even have children with them. She fought so hard to win Scott back and Scott wanting to be with Jean all along realizing that everyone he loved always traced back to her somehow. He agonized being with Maddie with how much she looked like Jean and they fought sometimes on that very issue. Scott felt so bad for going to Manhattan and leaving Maddie alone for a while to see if it really was Jean. When he tried to go back, Maddie was missing, Christopher was missing. It was a good mystery for a while in X-Factor but of course she formally joined the X-Men in Fall Of The Mutants.

I feel that reading every single X-Story since '83 that they were meant to be a duo, the pair that creates the center of the X-Men universe as the best thing Xavier had ever done. That is definitely one thing X-Titles as whole SEVERELY lack. Which is a story "anchoring point", a stable core or center so that new characters or spotlight characters could shine. Jean and Scott had their time really needed to be placed as supporting cast and take the back seat to a new generation of mutant X-Men. A lot of X-characters should have been put back to the shelf and left alone, so that they could help new creator characters or fresh blood. They didn't need to be quickened again. We already know their stories and just like real humans at some point you need to wind them down or reboot the universe. It would have been nice to have Christopher take over the X-Teams when he got older and NOT turn into mr. arsenal, Cable. Yea he's a cable now alright. However let me state that I have nothing against Morrison, Seagle or even Joe Kelly it is just a fact that not EVERYONE can write an X-Men story. You have to have a certain "it" factor to pull it off. Call it a mutant power that so far only Claremont, Simonson and Harras have pulled off with any measurable success.

If you enjoy Silvestri's work I REALLY recommend you examine his earlier work in Uncanny (which should be 220's to 240's). He was so very gifted (no x-men pun intended) and I remember he actually made Dazzler look like a hottie. Hell he made Rogue in a black body suit and green one piece look good. No one else pulled that off I assure you.

#50 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3583 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr Marvel82 said:

@chasereis said:

Aha! I knew we had to have come into X-men at two different times... Makes a bit more sense now.

Yes... Steven Seagle. Thanks for that. I didn't feel like diving into the archives to find those books.

"All he really did is take character that needed a big push and make her as uninteresting as a 1970's Superman."

I'm sorry, was this in reference to Jean? Really? I thought she was fantastically interesting as Morrison attempted to reconcile some of the earlier convolution with Jean and the Phoenix, in his run. But then again, I get off on the exploration of psychic powers in any story arc.

The moment where Charles did the silverware test to measure Jean's telekinetic sensitivity... Oh man. I loved that Jean realized that there were parts of the Phoenix force she didn't even understand. Again, it was that whole 'look she's tapping into her full potential. Let's see what wondrous thing she will become' type of moment. And then she died. As I type this, I'm seeing a parallel between her and that grotesque mutant child that was killed while trying to get medicine for his sick mom. (I wish I could site which issue I'm pulling from. Maybe I'll edit tomorrow.) There's a moment where Xorn states that this kid would've become something beautiful if he had survived this temporary stage in his mutation. His death was also meaningful to me, though he was only a character which lived through 4 or so pages.

"It would have been far more entertaining to see them reconcile in an arduous manner than see the "crown-y white phoenixes" telling him "live, because I only die on you"."

Here Comes Tomorrow is my least favorite set of books to discuss. Still, I found them fascinating and became of fan of Silvestri's art afterward. But the issues and the esoteric explanation of the Phoenix and White Hot Room and all that jazz... it's too open to interpretation.

I think Here Comes Tomorrow was Morrison's attempt to show just how meaningful the life of Jean Grey was to the X-Universe. I read it as an epitaph of sorts, after killing-off the character just 1 issue earlier. The blonde girls said at the time Jean was killed, 'something has gone wrong with the world.' Fun stuff man (or woman?)

I'm curious now. Which X-story arc/ writers have you enjoyed the most? Clearly Morrison and New X-Men was not your cup of tea.

And I feel, I must apologize. My recent posts have not been very specific to the topic at hand. Forgive me.

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE: scott is a two-timer who got away with it.....i want to see emma and jean kick his butt........also he had maddie but wanted to be with jean....scott and his endless love triangles....when will it end and now hes single, i feel bad for the next girl

LOL. Is a married man who has a recurring dream about his attractive co-worker a two-timer? What if she flaunts her sexuality and expresses desire to be romantically involved with him? What if he would never in his heart of hearts cheat on his wife in reality? Yet his dreams won't stop..

I'm not looking for answers to these questions. But while reading New X-men, these were conversations that were sparked between my nerdy comic book friends and myself. I don't know that I judge Scott too harshly... And I certainly wouldn't want to see a tag team event where Jean and Emma get together and lay down a Smack Down on Mr Summers. Jean's currently just a teenager. And said events haven't happened to her yet. :)

i think the real reason they killed off jean grey is because she become too powerful and people were scared she might turn dark phoenix (ie. destroy the world)

instead of her going dark phoenix again they killed her off so it wouldnt happen again and jean pushing scott to be with emma sounds pretty dark phoenix to me or maybe jean thought scott being with emm is punnishible enough lol....emma doesnt get alot of stable relationships

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