It's no secret that i don't like lobdell, but if you look at it objectively it doesn't make any sense. Red hood and the outlaws got horrible reviews, its didn't sell well, and near the end it just became horrible. Why would dc allow lobdell to write red hood ?

Lobdell is good friends with Bob Harras, and he turns in scripts on time (due to how little effort he puts into them). While DC won't cancel Red Hood outright (like they did with Talon or Batwing), he's clearly several tiers below the likes of Dick, Barbara, and Damian in relevance as a character. The momentum from the animated movie is fading, so they're not going to put any rising talent on the title, and would rather just let Lobdell write his self-insert until the well is dry. He's not even part of the Bat editorial group.

@rurgandy: i feel the new batman Game will have a similar a

affect like the animated movie.

The title actually sold pretty well under Lobdell's pen. It was Tynion the one who tanked the sales.

You do realize that before Lobdell stopped writer RHATO it was getting really great reviews, and then dropped significantly the first issue he didn't write. It then shot back up once he came back to the series after ten terrible issues without him. In fact Lodell was doing such a good job on RHATO' and it was so well received that the reason he left is because DC wanted to see if he could bring that kind of success to one of their biggest characters Superman.

Red Hood and the Outlaws was one of the New 52's consistently low-rated series. In fact, it (and Catwoman) were frequently used as examples of why people hated the New 52.

http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-books/reviews/dc-comics/red-hood-and-the-outlaws

And Lobdell was put on Superman well before he left RHATO. DC was rotating through writers after George Perez left the title, and needed someone who can hit deadlines.

The reason people got mad at RHATO and Catowman was actually because the growing social justice trend. Starfire had sex with her boy friend in the series and for some reason people couldn't handle that and were outraged at it being "sexist" some how(even though getting offended at a girl taking ownership of her sexuality is sexist and rooted in misogynistic psychology). I can't even tell you how many "journalist" wrote articles crying about Starfire and using that same image of her in a bikini to get people who didn't even read the comic on their side(Starfire in a bikini is also a really good click bate so it was a popular discussion back then).

If you look through the reviews they all averaged at around 7 or higher(a lot of issues would have been 8 or 9s if they werent nuked) but there is consistently some social justice idiots who kept giving it a 3 or lower that nuked the rating.

Unless you think a 1/10 with the only review starting with "Do we really have to be such dicks about having dicks? Read Full Review" or 2/10 with the review saying "The chauvinism and misogyny in which this script is immersed are shocking and absolutely shameful. Read Full Review" sounds unbiased. People weren't reviewing the writing they were looking for a band wagon to jump on because they couldn't resist the urge to white knight.

No, RHATO wasn't bashed because of some "social justice warrior" Illuminati conspiracy. It was bashed because the writing was crap. Starfire was portrayed as a mindless goldfish that couldn't tell humans apart and went around having sex with anything that talked. Lobdell got called out on it, that he had to retcon the entire first issue in the most clumsy way possible. The problems with RHATO wasn't "OMG STARFIRE IS SEXY!". The problems with RHATO are:

- Incessant use of narration boxes that add nothing to the story

- Lack of consistent characterization, thanks to Lobdell trying to insert "hip" jokes in narration

- No chemistry between characters. And no, Jason constantly telling the reader that Roy is his best friend does count

- Lack of sympathy for the main characters. Jason and Roy constantly whine about how everything's not their fault

- Character assassination of the Batfamily. Tim apparently forgives Jason for all those murders and the time Jason tried to butcher him, but he

- Wasted art. Action sequences have no flow, due to Lobdell's lazy writing. Instead of letting the art tell a story, it's just annoying narration followed by a panel of an indiscriminate explosion, followed by more narration.

- Cliched, angsty leather jacket bad boy stereotype.

I know people are desperate for a Red Hood series that isn't terrible, but calling RHATO a great comic is silly. The UTRH animated movie was excellent and introduced Red Hood as an interesting villain, but after that, the only writer to actually find a use for him was Grant Morrison. Under a more competent writer (like Charles Soule or Tim Seeley), an "Outlaws" like book could have been a very fun parody of 90s action movies. Instead, it reads like fanfiction that would have been right at home with Rob Liefeld 90s art.

@rurgandy: I can mostly agree with your points, appart from a few things

- Morrison version of Jason was just awful

- the characterization of Jason RHATO is more consistent than it was before

- I think Seeley has proven in Batman Eternal that he shouldn't write Jason

@rurgandy: excellent post

You're actually giving Teerack the reason.

- If you weren't so biased and actually bothered to read RHATO, you'll know that Kori was by far the most developed character on the cast and how she was way, way more than eye candy. And no, there was never a retcon on RHATO

- Narration boxes worked to let us into the characters' minds. Something specially useful with such a reserved character as Jason. Plus they are only used when the characters are alone and isn't more used or wordy than the monsters Snyder likes to use on Batman.

- Under Lobdell all the outlaws have a consistent characterization. Jason is the loner that gradually starts to open to his friends, Roy is the one trying to hide his fears and insecurities using humor while Kori has driven away people out of her experiences. They act different on issue 40 than they did on issue one because they went through some pretty big character development.

- If you didn't liked the dynamic is one thing but the title thrived precisely because the chemistry between the trio. Roy is the perfect foil for Jason's somber persona while his relationship with Kori is one of the strongest romances written through all the N52. Jason only started calling Roy his best friend after having plenty of adventures with him, earning with hard work that spot.

- Jason always owned the responsability of his actions and Roy knows that he is in the wrong by blaming Ollie for their fallout but he also owns his actionsm so I don't know what the hell are you talking about.

- Is no character assasination when the characters themselves and situations are different. The worst actions of pre N52 Jason never happened on the N52 while Tim always felt a stronger bond with him than pre Flashpoint Tim. So their friendship is believable.

- Again, unless you're talking of Tynion's time on the title. The art was alway fluid and conveyed perfectly the action told on Lobdell's script.

- Jason is far from being a cliched bad boy stereotype, Lobdell has always worked on making him a three dimensional character. This complaint in particular shows how biased you are against the title and Lobdell himself since Winnick is the one who wrote Jason as a walking cliche.

The fanfiction is Tynion's tenure, RHATO/RHA is in fact a fun parody of 90's action themes. And Morrison never saw Jason as character, he only saw him as a prop to move his plot forward.

Seeley's issues in Eternal were one of the few times that Jason was tolerable, and not whiny. Tynion was the one who made him whiny and mopey about his creepy infatuation with Barbara.

Morrison's whole point with Jason was to deconstruct the whole "Batman should be the punisher" conception that people had. Pre-Flashpoint, Jason had done some terrible things, but a lot of fans (and writers) often overlook his flaws and terrible deeds due to the anti-hero sex appeal. Morrison stripped away the sex appeal to make him intentionally unlikeable.

Lobdell's RHATO has a following.

It is no coincidence that he returned to the title after Tynion or now with Red Hood/Arsenal.

@rurgandy said:

But wasn't Seeley the one who started the whole crush on Barbara thing? And he might written him tolerable but not good. For a Jason fan Eternal was just disappointing, he didn't get one cool scene in the whole series and was just slapped around, was again written as the guy who can do nothing than running around shooting guns. And they even brought Deacon Blackfire back (villain from one best comics from Jasons time as Robin) without involving him or mentioning his role in taking him down.

@rurgandy said:

Which is not a good characterisation of a charater and completly missed the point in my opinion. The unique thing about Jason before was that he questioned Batmans morals and methods (even as Robin) and actually had valid points. This was completely destroyed by turning him into a villian.

Btw. this is also a problem with Jason in Eternal. Eternal is actually a great example how ineffective Batmans methods are. They didn't mange to hold any villian in custody (and most of the A list Villians already were put in Arkham or Blackgate since the beginning of the new 52 iirc). It was revaled that Gotham had for years a mayor who worked for the Falcone without Batman doing anything against it (Nightwing even saved him from the Court of Owls iirc). And Jason Bard even manged to bring the Pinguin down by playing dirty (something that Bruce wasn't able to do during the whole new 52 by playing by the rules). But Jason Todd was inspite of this totally ok to play by Batmans rules and didn't said anything about it.

Well, if you look at Seeley's issues in Eternal, he was trying to make Jason into his own character. He had an old crush on Barbara and a jealously of Dick, but he was willing to walk away from it all, and be true to himself. Tynion was the one who turned it all into stupid fanfic-y material.

Granted, Jason hasn't exactly been portrayed well in the New 52, or past UTRH. Morrison's portrayal gave him relevance in the Bat mythos, but other than the occasional cameo from Seeley, Tomasi, Pak, Jason Todd has just been poorly utilized. Next to Tim Drake, he's the poster boy for the "too many generic sidekicks" problem for Batman.

What are you talking about? Seeley butchered Jason's character for no good reason. On the N52 Jason never had a crush on Barbara nor was jealous of Dick. In fact Barbara couldn't stand him due his action as the Red Hood. The only writer that did his research on Jason was Higgins.

Really? The meta joke on the awfulness of antiheroes is the relevance you want for Jason?

While Pak has his details he's the only writer that has shown a decent grasp on Jason's character.

Sorry but this whole jealous of Dick stuff, is exactly how you shouldn't write Jason and what Lobdell overcame in RHATO, bringing it back was a huge step back wards in Jasons Character development. And the whole scene in Batman Eternal #28 was again a good example how they got Jason wrong. You see Barbara playing "catch and release" with Bard and achieving nothing because he knew she wouldn't kill him. And all Jason does is stopping Barbara (by nearling killing Bard which at least somehow something that only he would do), instead of using his methods to scare Bard.

What makes Jason unique, is that he is willing to use more extrem methods than the rest of the Batfamily (appart from Damian) to get the job done, ignoring this is what makes him into a "generic sidekick".

Tynion wrote only 2 issues of Batman Eternal (afaik), and there is not a single Jasons-Barbara-scene is those issues. The whole Jason Barbara thing happend mostly in in Seeleys issues.

And btw. Seeley was the guy who gave Dick the cover Idea as a gay frensh gymnast teacher in a school full of horny teenage girls and let Midnigther make comments about Dicks Butt, much more fanfic-y writing is hardly possible.

Because Jason's whole life is suffering

@aahz: Tim Seely had to deal with the open disregard of continuity from RHatO in writing Red Hood.

When UTRH was replaced by a single page humiliation of Batman to show erase the 20 years of Batman's change in approach and personality into 'ignoring' what happened to him required a counter shot.

Lobdell scrapped on every hero that he could not write. No one would ever let him near the core Bat Family, so he ruined their characters to make Jason more right in what he was doing.

Main Batman story writers had a hard choice.

Write Jason Todd the way RHATO fans want, and tell a hundred thousand fans that every Bat Family story was completely wrong about how Bruce and the rest of the people around him were as characters, or take a dump on Jason Todd. There was no middle ground.

PS. I found your opinion of the message about Batman Eternal to be a little off the mark.

Mayor Hady, Bard, and Flass did the majority of the damage in Eternal by destroying the justice system. A point that was often ignored for weak justifications, bolstered by ooc actions by the Bat Family.

And your point about Batman's methods failing ignored the goal that Batman had to inspire others to be better. Which was the point of the ordinary PEOPLE of Gotham saving themselves.

That Jason Todd was and is one of the people raised in and around violence gives him the popular legitimacy that Bruce, Barbara, Tim, and dick do not have. Jason can kill people that would not be a threat to the others unless they sought them out.

The fact that Jason died at the hands of a violent scumbag also makes his approach more palatable when directed against actual criminals. His actions in UTRH are only explainable with him being made insane by the Lazarus Pit. His actions against the Bat Family helped no one, and endangered thousands.

And regarding why it would not work for the rest of the Bats to go around shooting people down.

Example 1.

I am just fine reading Punisher taking out bad guys with their own weapons and toys. They could kill him just as he could kill him. It is a fight that gives the bad guys an advantage.

I would not feel the same way about Thor or Iron Man incinerating drug dealers while their bombs and bullets richochet off of them. There is no grounds of grievance for a billionaire with armor that can take a hundred nukes to kill a bunch of poor crooks that pose ZERO threat to him.

It is the same issue with Batman Inc going on a criminal killing spree. If they use the equipment they have to kill people, there would be no justification. The criminals are no threat to them in their armor. Their lifestyles keep them sheltered from criminal activity. It just becomes killing poor people for sport.

Not to mention that Red Hood and Punisher shooting people with the means at their disposal as street levelers is people supported vigilantism.

Batman doing the same thing is corporate fascism by the deed.

When UTRH was replaced by a single page humiliation of Batman to show erase the 20 years of Batman's change in approach and personality into 'ignoring' what happened to him required a counter shot.

Lobdell scrapped on every hero that he could not write. No one would ever let him near the core Bat Family, so he ruined their characters to make Jason more right in what he was doing.

Main Batman story writers had a hard choice.

Write Jason Todd the way RHATO fans want, and tell a hundred thousand fans that every Bat Family story was completely wrong about how Bruce and the rest of the people around him were as characters, or take a dump on Jason Todd. There was no middle ground.

What are you talking about?

Showing Bruce as a loving (if flawed) father or depicting Dick as a friendly guy willing to teach Jason the ropes is taking a dump on their characters?

Which was really strange since his RHATO was way better than Lobdell's.

@tdk_1997: Sales and readers say otherwise

Why? You don't have to make him into the punisher, but there where other characters that ocasionally killed Bad Guys (Huntress, Katana, Green Arrow, even Damian Wayne) and still worked together with the Batfamily. And in RHATO he is much less violent than pre flash point.

@aahz: some good points.

But, Jason was not the best Robin in fighting. His elevation to above Bruce Wayne level skill looks like PIS given his established history. RHatO was at odds with established continuity and canon from the beginning, and everything outside that one comic puts him around Nightwing level.

He was not going to get a lot of criticism from Bruce due to the death of Damian. He would not get much from Barbara because she still thought she had killed James Jr. And Jason would know that discussing a change of methods in a crisis would be more futile than less. So, the absence of debate seemed to be more futile n line with the characters overall history.

The Bat Family has a i ng history of working with people that have killed. Jason Todd in UTRH put people in danger to work out his issues. It is his use of Batman's training and methods for the opposite ends that further strained the relationship. All the context of Death in the family were also erased in a single panel in a Death of the Family tie in...Which long time fans are to take in exchange for one of the most tragic arcs in the entire Batman canon.

To be honest, Eternal was defeated by the absence of payoff in fights. And massive PIS.

And current Jason should take a majority against any other Robin or Barbara.

Back on to the thread itself.

Scott Lobdell has a long record of drastically changing characters personalities and levels to fit his plot. The result is often weaker story.

He also has a record of ignoring canon for his plot.

The result of his retconning of Tim and Jason destroyed most of what made them appealing as characters. In place of those characters with established history, we get generic male angsty protagonists whose best feats are described in comment boxes or a single word balloon.

If I want people to get an idea of what kind of character Jason Todd was overall, I use Under The Red Hood and Lost Days by Judd Winnick as well as Batman Inc. appearances as Wingman. I may also throw in the Green Arrow and Teen Titans crossovers to show how the Lazarus Pit had made him unstable.

I would not use Red Hood and the Outlaws because it erases all of that for Jason One Shots everyone. That was Tynion.

Lobdell turned a solid street level antihero into some l nd of intergalactic supersoldier that was also saving the world from demons that were rules ng things freeze m the shadows. And the p%as poor spite Batman analog Crux...

No. I will use a writer that has left the mindless excess of the 90s for legit character development.

@senglord Oh boy, lets go for parts

But, Jason was not the best Robin in fighting. His elevation to above Bruce Wayne level skill looks like PIS given his established history. RHatO was at odds with established continuity and canon from the beginning, and everything outside that one comic puts him around Nightwing level.

When has Jason shown to be the best Robin at fighting? Because Bruce laid at his feet on the flashback to the N52 version of UTRH?

You do remember that Bruce has always hold back when fighting against Jason, yes? Aside of that, Lobdell has never written Jason fighting against the other members of the batfamily, making your complaint unfounded.

Scott Lobdell has a long record of drastically changing characters personalities and levels to fit his plot. The result is often weaker story.

He also has a record of ignoring canon for his plot.

The result of his retconning of Tim and Jason destroyed most of what made them appealing as characters. In place of those characters with established history, we get generic male angsty protagonists whose best feats are described in comment boxes or a single word balloon.

Which characters pray tell. Lobdell's take on Grayson, Damian and Bruce is in line with their depictions on their own books and he's the one building the N52 version of Tim Drake so he's also writing Drake in character. Their characterization of course is different to the pre Flashpoint DCU but the characters themselves are different too.

Saying that Lobdell ignores canon is a load of BS, he acknowledged Batman Inc and despite hating Tynion's run on RHATO he also acknowledged that.

Best feats depicted dialogue? REALLY? RHATO has plenty of great scenes showcasing Jason's skills and If your complaint is about Jason past feats, well, unless the issue is a flashback one cramming a full scene would only kill the pacing.

I would not use Red Hood and the Outlaws because it erases all of that for Jason One Shots everyone.

Funny that you bring this as a fault while praising UtRH and Lost Days when Winnick's Jason does the exact same thing.

Lobdell turned a solid street level antihero into some l nd of intergalactic supersoldier that was also saving the world from demons that were rules ng things freeze m the shadows. And the p%as poor spite Batman analog Crux...

You just don't like Lobdell's take and tha's fine but you can't come to blae him for things aren't true. And just FYI, Crux was freaking amazing on RHATO's last issues. Lobdell took the concept and spun in on a very interesting way, creating a great character.

@dark_tzitzimine: From my phone.

First comment on post:

He repeatedly used Talia to imply that Jason is the best fighter. And the all caste were created to hard sell him as a larger scale player than Batman and co.

You ignored him learning everuthing Bruce could teach him in a year. As well as the implied body reading (possibly Tynion). Those are some heavy skill feats in a couple captions from the adult Red Hood pre mind wipe.

There is also him being able to nearly solo Freeze and a Talon during Night of the Owls. Yes, Starfire won the fight and the Talon wanted to die, but he did significantly better than ANY other Bat family member in close quarters with Freeze. Bruce had years of experience against him and still got tagged.

The Tynion arcs may have biased me regarding his purported skill level.

Second comment:

On Lobdell mutilating characters.

Trying to push Rainmaker in Gen 13 as bisexual instead of as a lesbian is the most notorious.

Talia being in love with Jason Todd instead of Bruce Wayne.

Tim Drake being a better gymnast and acrobat than Sick Grayson.

Tim Drake being the victim of Batman using children as weapons. Which is a fairly massive departure from how the character became Robin in Pre 52.

His take on Magneto in main X-Men was shallow compared to his usual depictions.

He made Colossus kill himself for little actual reason (Magik had died of the legacy virus, so he kills himself. Um. No. Dice)

Starfire was so poorly handled that DC has Palmiotti and Conner do a rebuild closer to original interpretation.

The best feats depicted as dialog was hyperbolic.

The best example of this is the long dialog of Superman taking five days off to bench press the Earth. All he is shown doing is sitting in a machine. None of the previous feats indicate this as his power level. None of his later feats indicate this as his power level. So, yeah. He uses captions to make characters. Better than they are.

Learning everything there is to know from Batman. Having body reading. All described by captions.

Tim Drake being a better gymnast and having better acrobatic skills than Grayson, all done by caption.

As it stood, Jason beat Bruce in their fight in UTRH, and the other things that he did remained like Shrodinger's cat of did and did not happen.

Bat Family history remained in effect after New 52. Knightfall happened. No Man's Land happened. UtRH happened, then did not happen at all in two panels.

Comment 3:

On Judd Winnick and Scott Lobdell.

Jason had prep and assistance from Hush and Riddled for the events of UtRH. It was directly spun out from the events of Hush, which ultimately left Batman weak to Red Hood's attacks.

Winnick provides feats with viable context, Lobdell provides captions for still panels...

Comment 4:

I started reading comics in 1991 and stopped in 1996 at the end of the Clone Saga. Did not start again until 2012.

I was 11 in '96 and had seen enough from X-Men to be above it. And I felt that Age of apocalypse was a retarded waste of paper for a storyline with no value or impact.

So, yes, I cannot stand his way of writing comics. And, fwiw, he was not the worst of that batch of hacks.

@senglord said:

He repeatedly used Talia to imply that Jason is the best fighter. And the all caste were created to hard sell him as a larger scale player than Batman and co.

You ignored him learning everuthing Bruce could teach him in a year. As well as the implied body reading (possibly Tynion). Those are some heavy skill feats in a couple captions from the adult Red Hood pre mind wipe.

There is also him being able to nearly solo Freeze and a Talon during Night of the Owls. Yes, Starfire won the fight and the Talon wanted to die, but he did significantly better than ANY other Bat family member in close quarters with Freeze. Bruce had years of experience against him and still got tagged.

You're mixing Tynion and Lobdell's run here.

Talia only showed up ONCE under Lobdell and she only said that Jason had "the potential to be a great man" how that translates to "he's the best fighter"? The All-Caste weren't created to make him a larger scale player, they were introduced to give him an unique background and to handwave how he's able to stand against the batfamily on equal terms on such a short time. (That is the same reason Tim was turned into an olympic leve gymnast and Damian is a probe baby in fact)

On the original print of RHATO's issue 4 it was stablished that Jason learnt everything from Bruce on TWO years, the trade got that bit edited to simply "You learned everything you know from Batman"

Jason didn't solo Freeze. And in fact, once he lost the surprise element, Freeze got the upper hand on him by freezing his hand while Roy saved him from the talon.

If anyone is to blame on the BS of Jason being the chosen one and the best fighter ever, is Tynion.

Trying to push Rainmaker in Gen 13 as bisexual instead of as a lesbian is the most notorious.

Talia being in love with Jason Todd instead of Bruce Wayne.

Tim Drake being a better gymnast and acrobat than Sick Grayson.

Tim Drake being the victim of Batman using children as weapons. Which is a fairly massive departure from how the character became Robin in Pre 52.

His take on Magneto in main X-Men was shallow compared to his usual depictions.

He made Colossus kill himself for little actual reason (Magik had died of the legacy virus, so he kills himself. Um. No. Dice)

Starfire was so poorly handled that DC has Palmiotti and Conner do a rebuild closer to original interpretation.

The topic at hand is Lobdell's work on Jason so bringing up his work on other books and nearly a decade old is only you showing your bias against him. Lobdell has been respectful of other writers' job through all the N52. His take on both Drake and Jason's origins is also consistent with the themes he choose while reinventing them for the N52.

Starfire change is to pander at the internet crowd and in fact Palmiotti and Conner are guilty of mutilating N52's Kori character for no other reason than to fit THEIR vision of the character. The exact same fault you're accusing Lobdell.

Talia being in love with Jason is again, Tynion. And he lifted it up from Lost Days.

The best example of this is the long dialog of Superman taking five days off to bench press the Earth. All he is shown doing is sitting in a machine. None of the previous feats indicate this as his power level. None of his later feats indicate this as his power level. So, yeah. He uses captions to make characters. Better than they are.

Learning everything there is to know from Batman. Having body reading. All described by captions.

Tim Drake being a better gymnast and having better acrobatic skills than Grayson, all done by caption.

As it stood, Jason beat Bruce in their fight in UTRH, and the other things that he did remained like Shrodinger's cat of did and did not happen.

Bat Family history remained in effect after New 52. Knightfall happened. No Man's Land happened. UtRH happened, then did not happen at all in two panels.

Again, Lobdell's work on other books isn't the topic here. Roy was being sarcastic with his comment about Batman while Jason being able to body reading isn't something Lobdell introduced.

The Bat Family story on the N52 is very different to the pre N52 version and if you think Jason's action on UTHR are a shrodinger's cat of did and did not happen then the same can be said of every single story you mention. Jean Paul Valley doesn't exist on the N52 so Knightfall couldn't happen as we know (and Bane beating Batman is something only mentioned on Captions), No Man's Land didn't happen and instead elements of it were in Zero Year, UtRH happened but was crucially different since Dick knew Jason was the Red Hood unlike the Pre N52.

Jason had prep and assistance from Hush and Riddled for the events of UtRH. It was directly spun out from the events of Hush, which ultimately left Batman weak to Red Hood's attacks.

Winnick provides feats with viable context, Lobdell provides captions for still panels...

Riddler and Hush are entirely unrelated to the events on UtRH and the context you mention was given AFTER the story was published. before that Jason bought Kord Enterprises under Bruce's nose just because and he was a step ahead of everyone else just to sell him as a badass "evil Batman".

And where is the viable context on Lost Days? Jason spiking the child dealer drink is told via dialogue, issue three starts with Jason setting an elite group of mercenaries off-screen and some pages later Winnick uses Talia to tell us on one page how Jason killed other elite assasins.

@dark_tzitzimine: Tynion said Talia was in love with Jason?

Was hinted at on the Zero Year tie-in

There were comics (before flashpoint) that say that he was as talented as Dick, and was usually said to be very toughest, what should set him at least above Tim and Barbara in this regard. And i didn't said he is the best figther but primarily a figther opposed to Tim and Barbara how are usually characterised as the smart ones.

The history is definatly not intact, and you can't assume that things happend exactly the same way in the new 52 than before, since many charcters didn't exist in the new 52 or were changed

• Knightfall happened (or at least Bane braking his Back happend) but since Jean-Paul Valley was never mentioned sofar it probably didn't happend has it was in the comics.
• There is afiak now no proof that No Man's Land happened
• Hush happend but probably differently since his back story was changed and he still has his own face
• Contagination was never mentioned and probably didn't happend
• Fugative was probably also erased since Cassandra and David Cain didn't apeared so far
• and War Games was probably also erased since Stephanie just became Spoiler in Eternal
• and most other events like UtRH, RIP and Son of Batman probably happened in a different way than pre flashpoint
• and I think it is quite save to assume that most events from series outside the main Batman titles (like Nigthwing, Robin, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Green Arrow ...) never happened

No Dick has now the body reading ability, Tynion implied that Jason has some kind of movement copy ability. I know Cassandra Cain had both, but there were also charcters before flash point that had only the copy ability. Examples for this were Human Target (Christopher Chance) , Catwoman (atleast according to one story) and iirc Connor Hawke.

I think this is something that people misunderstood. He never said Tim is an better acrobat than Dick. The whole "Tim was the best at everything" probably refers to that he was the best at his school and in the competitions he participated in.

First, how easy the villains are to defeat is often very dependent on the writer. Second he didn't really fought against Freeze, he surprised him while fighting the Talon and put directly a gun to his head.

That was in the "Lost Days", there is afaik no reference for Talia loving Jason in RHatO.

@dark_tzitzimine: I stand corrected on the level of horrible writing done during Tynion's run.

re Starfire:

Starfire was altered to a degree that was entirely different than the Pre 52 incarnation. Which would have been better received if the character had a different name. So the pandering insult is invalid. The New 52 was designed to reintroduce characters for a new audience, not reinvent characters for a shrinking audience.

And learning everything in two years is almost as bad as one. He is still nowhere near the skill level of Batman by feats.

Tim was not said to be Olympic level. He was introduced as being superior to Grayson in the key ways that made him stand out. By Bruce, to Dick. And never remotely lived up to the hype by feats.

Re Winnick:

Your argument for lost days ignores the effects of the notorious Superbly Prime reality punch. It was a massive cop out that created hyperbolic and absurd changes to characters and their motivations.

And your examples of compression are ignoring that the feats themselves are quite common for street level characters. As such it tells little about the level of the character. Daredevil trashes teams of elite Hand nibja off panel while fighting other characters.

In comparison.

Do you feel that Jason was written so above Batman that Batman is fodder? A fight like that would be expected from a Spider-Man level metahuman to have Batman destroyed in one panel after the fact. But, Red Hood is a little above Nightwing in skills and combat feats.

Any decent writer will compress feats against disposable characters that serve no purpose. A weak writer will just avoid any script work and move the plot along at all costs to stay on time.

A fight between Batman and Bane that happens off panel is weak writing. A fight between Jason and Bruce in one panel without any context is weak writing. Esp. because Bruce is significantly above him in every relevant category.

An issue to featless fodder is a waste, and as such, should be avoided as a go to page filling method. Hence compression.

PS. I used other works written in DC and outside DC to show a pattern of flaws in Lobdell's style of writing. It was a plot driven method that has fallen out of favor for the more character driven comic book style.

Which makes my complaint a legitimate critique of his use of writing convention. While my dislike of the '90s Marvel style can show through, the core is based on creative writing principles.

The two years would hardly fit in the 6 year timeline, like I understand it according to this Dick was Robin for 2 years, and Jason, Tim and Damian had each 1 year.

@aahz: owning Bruce mostly happened off panel. Which is his best fighting feat New 52 during Lobdell's run. No matter how it happened, he was at a higher level than anything he did since.

He was shown in fights pre and New 52 as being a less skilled fighter, it a better tactician in combat. And his use of lethal force made him more likely to win their fights.

The No Man's Land arc was mentioned in a Riddler one shot during Fore we Evil. Idr if the quake was what caused it.

Regarding Tim:

Bruce told Grayson that he was better than him. Maybe at gymnastics only. Maybe at everything. Maybe at him being a better Robin if it happened.

Any interpretation would have plenty of New 52 feats to dispute.

And the events of Lost Days were caused by a punch to reality. Not a traditional story arc. So, she falls in love with him in Last Days, then returns to loving Bruce for the rest of Pre and New 52.

Strong Argentina style. Thank you.

@senglord:

Starfire was altered to a degree that was entirely different than the Pre 52 incarnation. Which would have been better received if the character had a different name. So the pandering insult is invalid. The New 52 was designed to reintroduce characters for a new audience, not reinvent characters for a shrinking audience.

The N52 was meant to do both and N52 Starfire brought in a new audience for her character, or just because isn't a take you enjoy that audience matters less?

And learning everything in two years is almost as bad as one. He is still nowhere near the skill level of Batman by feats.

Tim was not said to be Olympic level. He was introduced as being superior to Grayson in the key ways that made him stand out. By Bruce, to Dick. And never remotely lived up to the hype by feats.

Learning something is different to mastering it so I don't see what's your issue with it. And isn't like Jason is the only one guilty of that.

I went back to check and again you're twisting the actual stories to fit your logic. Bruce never says that Tim is better than Dick and he specifically says Tim is an olympic level athlete.

Your argument for lost days ignores the effects of the notorious Superbly Prime reality punch. It was a massive cop out that created hyperbolic and absurd changes to characters and their motivations.

If my argument is ignoring the reality punch then yours is ignoring the changes brought by Flashpoint

owning Bruce mostly happened off panel. Which is his best fighting feat New 52 during Lobdell's run. No matter how it happened, he was at a higher level than anything he did since.

He was shown in fights pre and New 52 as being a less skilled fighter, it a better tactician in combat. And his use of lethal force made him more likely to win their fights.

Ignorign the fact we're only seeing the outcome of the fight and not the fight itself, Jason beating Bruce was exactly the point. Every iteration of UtRH shows Jason winning their first fight because Bruce is holding back. I don't know why are you keep bringing that ignoring the context of the story.

When has Jason shown to be a less skilled fighter? He effortessly beat plenty of guys while in the Wingman persona, beat Tim preN52 and has only been on the losing end when he's massively outclassed.

I thought most readers stopped reading because the plot just got more complicated.

How a page like this ever got past an editor is beyond me. 12 narration boxes that amount to nothing more than the trite "Hi, my name is Roy Harper, and I'm an Outlaw" opening. The artwork might as well not even be there. A first page is supposed to draw a reader in, and make them want to flip to the next one. This just makes a reader roll their eyes and move on somewhere else.

Why people keeps bringing the caption boxes as if Lobdell were the only writer that uses them?

Every single writer uses them when the characters are alone or lost on their thoughts. In Arsenal's case he's always been a motor mouth and the dialogue is used to convey his nerveousness. Once Arsenal starts interacting with other characters the caption boxes are sparingly used

Few days ago, but this deserves to be restated. For all his strengths as a writer, Grant Morrison had no idea how to write Jason Todd. That characterization was silly and terrible, maybe the worst in his entire history. When going back, I struggle to get through the first volume of Batman and Robin because of how bad Jason is in it.

Are you saying before the New 52 or before Seeley's run on the New 52? Either way, in both cases, Jason has always been jealous/envious of Dick

Jason has never been jealous of Dick on RHATO. Any jealousy it could be is from the preN52 version.

Very first issue shows a flashback to the events of Under the Hood wherein Jason's jealousy is shown

This is pretty much one of Jason's most consistent, and important, character traits and has been since the Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths DCU, wherein he is fairly jealous of Dick Grayon and has an inferiority complex when it comes to him.

Two things

That isn't the first issue, is the sixth and that scan is an edit

And Lobdell is so good at writing Jason precisely because he's moving him away of the stagnant characterization he had on the preN52 DCU

Well, I stand corrected then. However, in the very same issue

And I didn't say that he wasn't moving him away from that. Jason's definitely grown as a person since the New 52 began. I simply pointed out that he has indeed shown jealousy towards Dick within the context of the New 52. I also don't see him being jealous of Dick as stagnant characterization per se, just as Damian hating Tim isn't really stagnant characterization, unless that becomes the only trait the characters possess. Even at his worst Pre-52 there was more to Jason than his relationship with Dick. When done right, these volatile relationships can make the characters more human as a whole. More is just needed to go along with that.

But you're seeing the dynamics between Dick and Jason wrong. Jason isn't jealous of Dick, he's tired of being compared with him. The recurrent theme on the N52 with Jason is that he won't accept things until he feels he's earned them. For him, Dick's legacy is an obstacle to overcome.

Not really, that was iirc something that came up in the very end of the last continuity, he was afaik never shown to be jealous on Dick during his time as Robin (only afraid that Dick would want his "job" back when they met the first time in Batman #416), and i don't think he was shown this way in Under the Red Hood or Nightwing: Brothers in Blood.

@aahz: The notion started when Jason was shown to be extremely bitter at Dick being the priority for Bruce on the final stretch of UtRH (when Chemo is dropped on Blüdhaven) and then with Jason taking the Nightwing persona, the notion only grew stronger. However it was Morrison with all the red hair BS that Jason wanting to be Dick became an important trait for Jason.

Tired of being compared with him in what that flashback is showing as the early days of their relationship? Doubt it. He's lashing out at Dick for little reason, and rebuffs his help because he claims he doesn't need it, while at the same time implying Dick couldn't cut it, but the he, Jason, can. Pre-52 it was mainly Tim Drake that he had a problem being compared to, as he became remembered as the failure of the group, whereas he felt Tim recieved a lot of praise. He acted in pretty much the exact same way when he started out as Robin Pre-52 also. He did however note this in Batman and Robin, and how he tried so hard to be as good as Dick was in Bruce's eyes, but failed, which only adds on to his feelings of inferiority in relation to Dick and Tim respectively.

During his original time, as in when the original issues were written and put out, as Robin no, since that was fairly short. The majority of their relationship in fact came in after Jason died, as did a lot of Jason's issues. But since his revivel as Red Hood yes. Their opening interaction in Year One is basically all about Jason trying to outdo Dick and prove he's better, claiming Gotham needs a "tougher" Robin now. (Funny how he'd end up claiming something similar to Bruce years later about Batman) Under the Red Hood then doesn't really have them interact much at all, as Dick's gone by the time Jason is revealed as Red Hood. That's solely about Jason's relationship with Bruce. Nightwing Brothers in Blood however is back to Jason and Dick, highlighting the same issues that cropped up in Year One, with Jason specifically just trying to antagonize and mock Dick.

@nathaniel_christopher: Tired of being compared with him in what that flashback is showing as the early days of their relationship? Doubt it. He's lashing out at Dick for little reason, and rebuffs his help because he claims he doesn't need it, while at the same time implying Dick couldn't cut it, but the he, Jason, can.

Exactly. On the N52 Jason has always been haunted by his past leaving him with an inferiority complex. On RHATO's issue Zero Jason admits that a big part his violent behavior as Robin was because subconciously he was trying to destroy any ties with his biological father so he could fully embrace Bruce as his new father. On the same issue when he was offered the Robin mantle Jason said that he would accept it but would screw up sooner and later. Once he grew confident on the role he set himself the goal to be the best. To -as Jason himself put it- "live up to the Legacy, to get it right"

Yeah, he has an all around inferiority complex towards Dick Grayson, and a minor one towards Tim Drake (Pre-Flashpoint anyways) Traits associated with such a complex include, but most certainly are not limited to, a lack of self-worth, a need to overcompensate, jealousy, and anger, all of which Jason showcases at different points towards the main people that lead to the development of said complex: Bruce, Dick, and Tim. The fact Bruce didn't kill the Joker after he killed Jason, Jason growing up alone on the street, Bruce (in some continuities) made him dye his hair, being compared to Dick, being compared to Tim, Dick being the favorite "son", and other factors still all contributed to Jason's complex.

We're only talking about N52 Jason though. And again, he was never jealous of Dick in the N52, if anything he only felt contempt for the guy.

But Dick is also not exactly nice to Jason in this story. And quite jealous that Bruce replaced him (this was actually similar in the first version of their first meeting in Batman #416).

But there is imo not a single story about Jasons time as Robin (original or published later) that portraits him as someone with low self-esteem or inferiority complexes. The only thing that comes close to this is this panel from Legends, but this is in my opinion not the real post crisis Jason Todd, since it was published in this short period after crisis before they changed Jasons origin, and the way he was written in this time neither fits his pre or post crisis character.