Who Should Be Jason's Enemies?

#1 Edited by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Baddies I'd like to see Jason tangle with: 
The Wrath- From Tony Bedard's "Wrath Child"; sidekick to the original. As a crime-killer, Jason's even more this guy's arch-enemy than Batman    
Scarlet- there's nothing I'd like to see more than a disfigured lunatic Jason made into a serial killer  
Flamingo- The supernatural assassin still trying to complete his hit on Jason  
Onomatopoeia- he'd want to add the helmet of the Red Hood to his collection  
 Mr. Zsasz- could probably play with Jason's rage as much as anybody 
 
Who would you pit against  Jason? 




     
#2 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio

I would honestly say that any of them would be a great match for Jason. But I think that Scarlet would prove to be the best. It would be interesting to see how his once sidekick and follower is now his arch enemy. How would we get to that point? Well that is what would be the best part of the whole shebang.

#3 Posted by fodigg (6148 posts) - - Show Bio

I know some will probably not like this idea, but Talia would be a good villain for him. Shiva wouldn't be a bad enemy either. He has strong ties to assassins and the like. 
 
This would bring him into similar circles as Tim and Cass, of course, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

#4 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
I would honestly say that any of them would be a great match for Jason. But I think that Scarlet would prove to be the best. It would be interesting to see how his once sidekick and follower is now his arch enemy. How would we get to that point? Well that is what would be the best part of the whole shebang.
Oh I figured that out. Aside from eventually just making her weird and crazier by claiming the psycho-tropic drugs that were in the mask had this delayed effect, you have her snap when some medical attention points out, "if we'd just gotten the mask off in the hospital, it probably wouldn't have had enough time to disfigure you". Then you just have her stare at  Jason, who's now the cause of her problems for making her Scarlet rather than her savior. I'm talking, make this chick Joker-y nuts, cutting off beautiful women's faces and wearing them as masks.
#5 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio
 From the list i say those 2, to bad DC decie to take the Wrath thing into the toilet, by far better character that Bane, also i would like KGBeast, since i loved that guy.
@RedHoodsDen said:
Baddies I'd like to see Jason tangle with: 
The Wrath- From Tony Bedard's "Wrath Child"; sidekick to the original. As a crime-killer, Jason's even more this guy's arch-enemy than Batman    
Scarlet- there's nothing I'd like to see more than a disfigured lunatic Jason made into a serial killer  

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#6 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone else you'd use Deathpool? Living?

#7 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

Jim Gordon.
 
Harvey Bullock.

#8 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:
Anyone else you'd use Deathpool? Living?
Living who, Tribunal or anonther one, since there has being like 7 characters with Living in their names.  
Living la Vida Loca?
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#9 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar said:
Jim Gordon.  Harvey Bullock.
See I think Bullock should be his dirty Gordon. It should be one of the few pre-crisis connections they hold onto.
#10 Posted by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

Two-Face too.@fodigg said:

I know some will probably not like this idea, but Talia would be a good villain for him. Shiva wouldn't be a bad enemy either. He has strong ties to assassins and the like.  This would bring him into similar circles as Tim and Cass, of course, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.
Nah i think we should stick with criminals and crime over assasins.Shiva has'nt been anyone's villian for a long term basis.
#11 Posted by batflasharrow96 (445 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd like to see a crime boss character because I really enjoyed his relationship with Black Mask, but there has to be a reason he can't kill him since it wouldn't last.

#12 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

You can pull a Punisher and just have fate screw him over, over and over as he's about to kill him. Or you Jigsaw the guy up.

#13 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:
You can pull a Punisher and just have fate screw him over, over and over as he's about to kill him. Or you Jigsaw the guy up.
Or give him "regenerative" villains, like cyborgs, people with healing factors, etc.
#14 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah that's the other option, I had that thought for one of the above in particular. lol.

#15 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:
@RedHoodJT said:
I would honestly say that any of them would be a great match for Jason. But I think that Scarlet would prove to be the best. It would be interesting to see how his once sidekick and follower is now his arch enemy. How would we get to that point? Well that is what would be the best part of the whole shebang.
Oh I figured that out. Aside from eventually just making her weird and crazier by claiming the psycho-tropic drugs that were in the mask had this delayed effect, you have her snap when some medical attention points out, "if we'd just gotten the mask off in the hospital, it probably wouldn't have had enough time to disfigure you". Then you just have her stare at  Jason, who's now the cause of her problems for making her Scarlet rather than her savior. I'm talking, make this chick Joker-y nuts, cutting off beautiful women's faces and wearing them as masks.
That, to me, is a great idea. I think that it would really work. And to keep it going to where she would actually become his Joker would be for her to some how know where he is and where he is going to be that way she can always be one step a head of him until the final showdown between the two where any thing is a possibility.
#16 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

 
Totally, I mean get a look at the original character study they did creating her, THIS is a supervillain, a scary as hell one: 

#17 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont know, but meaby hey could came with there is two Jason Todd thing, Morrison Jason goes crazy and try to kill Jason Todd. 

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#18 Edited by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

You know, I thought of that one too, but I'm saving it for the slim chance I get comic work. It wouldn't be that Morrison's Todd is another Todd, but there would be another Jason Todd. 
 
Doppelgangers kick ass. And who would literally be Jason Todd's own worst enemy? Jason Todd. It could be Doctor Hurt-y. 
 
Really dig the split helmet, btw. 
 
Said it before and I'll say it again, biggest missed opportunity in the Bat-family during Blackest Night: Jason Todd vs. Black Lantern Sheila Haywood. Talk about the epic mind-screwing mommy could've given Jason.

#19 Posted by RedKnight (4 posts) - - Show Bio

RedHoodsDen: 
 
You know I love almost everything you bring to the table and I sincerely respect everything you say. However,  there are a few things I vehemently disagree with you on and bringing Sasha/Scarlet to September is one of them. I think your idea for Scarlet is the best thing they could do with Scarlet if they brought her back. The irony of that situation and heartbreak that would bring Jason Todd would make great stories but I don't think the character belongs in Jason Todd's world at all. She was horrible in Morrison's Batman & Robin and served no purpose other than being a rival for Robin. The idea that Jason Todd would take her in as a sidekick makes no sense considering that he strongly believes children/teenagers lives shouldn't be put in danger because of what personally happened between him and Bruce. It also doesn't make sense that she could pretty much be on par with Robin within the few days or weeks after he picked her up from the hospital. The Batman can't even do that.
 
As Lobdell stated in his interviews he wanted redemption for Jason Todd. A good life, away from the ugliness in character both physically and personality wise that we've seen for almost the past six years: The in-sensitiveness and thoughtlessness in Brothers in Blood, the arrogance in Countdown/FC, the crazy irrational acts and thoughts in Battle for the Cowl and Morrison's B&R run, the disgust of sleeping with Talia, his father's beloved in Lost Days. Jason needs to stay away from all of that, I think the Flashpoint Priest version of Jason was implying he won't be so cynical and vile as writers portrayed him in the past but that is just pure speculation on my part. All in all, I just hope you don't wish Scarlet back in September RHD. I hope others on here feel as strongly as I do on everything I have mentioned.

#20 Posted by Moonwalker (10 posts) - - Show Bio

floyd lawton

#21 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedKnight 
 
I can understand your point but I also think editorial will use her again and I think it's unavoidable. I had Judd Winick stare me in the face and tell me editorial likes her and that she'd be in his next appearance. That was over a year ago and it still happened. To be honest, her as an Outlaw would not shock me; at all. The very notion of Kory on a team with Sasha seems possible. Further Lobdell created Marrow so he's not afraid of ugly characters. I'd go so far as to say I almost expect it.  Not that I want it. And that's why I think the Rogue route should be explored, for its greater depth.
 
I know it's difficult to sell you on things, but the disgust you felt over Talia and Jason was the point. It was supposed to be perverse  Beyond that I don't know what to tell you. Batman trained Two Face for like a month and then told him to protect Gotham in the Lost Year. Joker is deadly simply because he is. Remember Sasha was killing people before Jason showed up. 
 
As to redemption, it might be the worst thing in the world for Jason. I won't read a "Nightwing Who Shoots To Wound". The character would be completely neutered. 
#22 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen: I agree with you on the fact that Scarlet is a pretty scary looking character. And it totally makes sense that she would be a major villain, well not villain but distraction for Jason. I think that there is a good story that can be told and told well if its written correctly. And the whole Jason/Talia thing was meant to come off that way. It wasn't supposed to be well received by the fans. I didn't mind that it happened because to me it made sense that it happened. I don't think that everything Jason has appeared in has been completely shit but I wouldn't say that it has been the best stuff I've read either. I can totally see Scarlet joining the Outlaws and then turning on them and Jason. But to think that its a dumb idea to bring her back in September is just plain wrong. She has the potential to become a very popular and sinister character. So why not go that route with her?
#23 Edited by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:

You know, I thought of that one too, but I'm saving it for the slim chance I get comic work. It wouldn't be that Morrison's Todd is another Todd, but there would be another Jason Todd.  Doppelgangers kick ass. And who would literally be Jason Todd's own worst enemy? Jason Todd. It could be Doctor Hurt-y.  Really dig the split helmet, btw.  Said it before and I'll say it again, biggest missed opportunity in the Bat-family during Blackest Night: Jason Todd vs. Black Lantern Sheila Haywood. Talk about the epic mind-screwing mommy could've given Jason.

I think that this Jason should be from Earth i dont know, where Jason was Red hair, but the thing that bring the Jasons back to life, connected both Jason Souls, so if Jason Todd 1 kills Jason Todd 2, both of them die.  
Great way to explain why Jason dont kill the other guy and obtain an enemy for all his life.
Also Jason Todd 2 is so insane and feel so bad about his life that he decide to kill Jason 1 so both of them die. 
Also explain that Scarlet will try to kill any Jason, after all if she kills one the other dies. 
And you have a Grant Morrison Storyline.
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#24 Posted by RedKnight (4 posts) - - Show Bio

RedHoodsDen:
 
I don't think they will continue to use her at all. As you pointed out, you talked to Winick over a year ago. A year ago nobody knew anything like September would come about. It's a damn shame that editorial wanted to use her again but the extent they used her was just for B&R. I don't think she'll be showing up again and I hope she doesn't even get mentioned. As for her killing people before Jason showed up, she would've been in a mental institution if Jason never found her. There is no way she would've grown up to be a serial killer equivalently as to Jason growing up to be a thug no matter what happened in his life's trajectory. I'm honestly glad you didn't actually want Sasha/Scarlet back tho because she is a poorly conceived idea.
 
The Jason/Talia sleeping together was just sick and disturbing. I'm sure many who like Winick's writing can agree with that. The thing is it's beyond our moral perceptions of whether them sleeping together is right,wrong, or an indifference to it; He distorted the characters completely, it didn't make sense for them to do that.. you can try to justify it but in all honestly don't you think you're covering for Winick's ass? I listened to CV's podcast, I know Winick said the same exact thing you told me but I don't think he was being honest and he initially wrote that as an ego thing for Jason. I think he realized it was a mistake, he got a lot of hate for it and had to come up with something to explain himself and that was it. He's not a good writer but he certainly isn't a bad one either, people make mistakes and that was one of his biggest ones. He fucked up. He done goofed. I respect your take on it and of course this is just my perception but one I conceived unbiasedly with great analyses.  
 
I strongly believe redemption is what Jason needs. DC owes him this from killing him twenty years ago to spiritually destroying who he is now. I know everything they bring about in September won't be perfect but I'm just content that it's coming.

#25 Posted by Antonio_Blackheart (1542 posts) - - Show Bio

Flamingo is a lunatic he good for jason todd
#26 Posted by daredevil21134 (12322 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:
@RedKnight  I can understand your point but I also think editorial will use her again and I think it's unavoidable. I had Judd Winick stare me in the face and tell me editorial likes her and that she'd be in his next appearance. That was over a year ago and it still happened. To be honest, her as an Outlaw would not shock me; at all. The very notion of Kory on a team with Sasha seems possible. Further Lobdell created Marrow so he's not afraid of ugly characters. I'd go so far as to say I almost expect it.  Not that I want it. And that's why I think the Rogue route should be explored, for its greater depth. I know it's difficult to sell you on things, but the disgust you felt over Talia and Jason was the point. It was supposed to be perverse  Beyond that I don't know what to tell you. Batman trained Two Face for like a month and then told him to protect Gotham in the Lost Year. Joker is deadly simply because he is. Remember Sasha was killing people before Jason showed up.  As to redemption, it might be the worst thing in the world for Jason. I won't read a "Nightwing Who Shoots To Wound". The character would be completely neutered. 
I agree with you
#27 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess I'm still stuck on your perception of Jason, RedKnight. It sounds more like it's about the Boy Wonder than the Red Hood. I can't really tell if you're okay with the character as was at all. Murder is even a possibility in his roots as Robin, and mass murder as the Red Hood. You didn't like Scarlet and you didn't like Talia sleeping with Jason. That's fine. But do you like the Red Hood who kills criminals? And did you like the Robin who might have killed criminals? I guess I'm at a loss for what you want the redemption for.

#28 Edited by Rudyftw (987 posts) - - Show Bio

Flamingo should be Jason's Joker. And I can see him throwing it down with Batwoman and Huntress once in a while along with the rest of the Bat family.
  
 
The only problem I have with Jason Todd having arch enemies, is that if he hates someone well enough, and they aren't from the Bat Family, he'll just kill them. 
 


Why not? 
#29 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rudyftw said:
Flamingo should be Jason's Joker. And I can see him throwing it down with Batwoman and Huntress once in a while along with the rest of the Bat family.
  
 
The only problem I have with Jason Todd having arch enemies, is that if he hates someone well enough, and they aren't from the Bat Family, he'll just kill them. 
 

    

Why not? 
Yeah, even when he wants to kill the Batfamily members, he cant, something on his mind stop him. 
@RedKnight: @RedHoodsDen said:
I guess I'm still stuck on your perception of Jason, RedKnight. It sounds more like it's about the Boy Wonder than the Red Hood. I can't really tell if you're okay with the character as was at all. Murder is even a possibility in his roots as Robin, and mass murder as the Red Hood. You didn't like Scarlet and you didn't like Talia sleeping with Jason. That's fine. But do you like the Red Hood who kills criminals? And did you like the Robin who might have killed criminals? I guess I'm at a loss for what you want the redemption for.
If Jason will have his redemption, he need a huge character development and keep his attitude, is hard to think in redemption for Jason Todd, but he need redemption for himself, not for the Batfamily, not for Bruce, but for him.
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#30 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rudyftw said:
Flamingo should be Jason's Joker. And I can see him throwing it down with Batwoman and Huntress once in a while along with the rest of the Bat family.
  
 
The only problem I have with Jason Todd having arch enemies, is that if he hates someone well enough, and they aren't from the Bat Family, he'll just kill them.
Yeah but in the end you're still talking comic book logic where even the good villains can die and still come back or then you have the cat and mouse games where fate keeps that death from Jason's grasp. Then you throw in some metas for good measure, or the villain who simply kicks Jason's ass. I'm not opposed to that. Flamingo shot Jason in the head twice before he batted him around. It doesn't make Jason less worthy if a villain fights like a bad-ass too.
#31 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio

I cant belive no one have said this one. 
Bucky Barnes, hahahaha.....

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#32 Posted by desperado_ (314 posts) - - Show Bio
@DeathpooltheT1000 said:
I cant belive no one have said this one. Bucky Barnes, hahahaha.....  
NO
#33 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@desperado
Actually you could do it pretty well as a bit of satire and parody and still give it depth. Literally an "in your face, Todd" story of how it went for the other dead sidekick. You just don't call him Bucky. 
.
#34 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:
@desperado
Actually you could do it pretty well as a bit of satire and parody and still give it depth. Literally an "in your face, Todd" story of how it went for the other dead sidekick. You just don't call him Bucky
.
Why? i actually liked him more like the Winter Soldier. 
but you know, Marvel see that Robin from tiem to time gets to use Batman suit, so does Bucky. 
I could work, if Bucky decide to get back at his Winter Woldire persona.
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#35 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm talking about a Red Hood villain that's parody of Winter Soldier where you sort of lampoon how it went for Marvel's sidekick vs. Todd's in terms of the five years since they've been back. You could do it because DC already has a parody of Bucky and Captain America.

#36 Posted by NightFang (10194 posts) - - Show Bio

People he can't kill, lol.

#37 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with the parody. I think it would be a very interesting story. It would definitely be entertaining. Kinda like the Superman Batman annual where Deadpool is there but every time he goes to tell Bruce his name he gets hit or knocked over board. Lol.

#38 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah that would be cool, what about Red X from the Teen titan Cartoon, like a antivillain character. 
Red like a happy Jason that dont kills, but take things, help bad guys, sell weapons and all those thing, but he never kills. 
It would be a good change, from bad guys kill, good guys dont.

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#39 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does no one talk about Onyx or Night Slayer? 
It could be too crazy to bring back the Crazy Quilt?

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#40 Posted by RedKnight (4 posts) - - Show Bio

The Wrath would be an ideal antagonit, self evident as to why. A Batman idealized villain is the perfect enemy.
 
Onomatopoeia is cold. I like him a lot and he mirrors a darker variation of Jason's Red Hood costume.
 
Onomatopoeia: Black Helmet, Black Trench Coat, Guns
Red Hood: Red Helmet, Black Leather Jacket, Guns

#41 Edited by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedKnight said:

The Wrath would be an ideal antagonit, self evident as to why. A Batman idealized villain is the perfect enemy. Onomatopoeia is cold. I like him a lot and he mirrors a darker variation of Jason's Red Hood costume.  Onomatopoeia: Black Helmet, Black Trench Coat, GunsRed Hood: Red Helmet, Black Leather Jacket, Guns

Sadly DC loves Bane so hard, it forgets that Warth and KGBeast where the Antibatmen before he came into a picture. 
To be honest Bane was never as good as Wrath.
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#42 Posted by Grubich (369 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd go with...  
Talia & Ra's al Ghul 
Deathsroke 
Owlman (Thomas Wayne Jr. or Jason Todd-Earth-3) 
Flamingo 
and a random new villain.

#43 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12000 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grubich said:
I'd go with...  Talia & Ra's al Ghul Deathsroke Owlman (Thomas Wayne Jr. or Jason Todd-Earth-3) Flamingo and a random new villain.
It looks Jason Todd as his own villain is a popular idea.
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