As part of the Year Zero TPB, I read Jason Todd's story in that arc and actually enjoyed it up until the All-Caste rubbish reared it's ugly head.

So, would Jason be a more bearable character if he was taken away from all the magic, alien technology and insufferable co-stars that made Red Hood and the Outlaws such a terrible book? Just give him a mask, leather jacket, some conventional weaponry and a bad attitude, stick him in a slum of Gotham or another city and just write stories about that. As a former hood rat, there'd be plenty of interesting themes to play with - he's not the Punisher, he's a guy who should understand where the gangbangers and muggers are coming from, but at the same time, he won't be afraid to put down someone who's threatening the innocent people of whatever block he's protecting.

Wouldn't that be more interesting that crap about tiger men, Venom and enemies from other planets? Seriously, he's a member of the Batfamily, not a member of the Fantastic 4.

Yeas it would be better. It's ironic really that series but really meant to be about him but almost all the story arcs are forgettable at best. And the previous writer is on the next Red hood series despite it being fairly clear that Scott Lobdell is just phoning it in.

@allstarsuperman

Giving him good writer and someone doesnt try to make him as the new Nightwing.

I would like him more if he was dead again.

So, would Jason be a more bearable character if he was taken away from all the magic, alien technology and insufferable co-stars that made Red Hood and the Outlaws such a terrible book? Just give him a mask, leather jacket, some conventional weaponry and a bad attitude, stick him in a slum of Gotham or another city and just write stories about that.

No, Jason going back to an anti-hero would be majorly backtracking his character development. Can you imagine if New 52 Jason went from teaming up with the Batfamily on occasion, to poisoning a prisons entire food supply? It would be jarring, and out of character. And no, Jason already had enough Punisher analogues as is.

While I am sick to death of Lobdell not even trying to write anything worth reading. I have to admit I really did like his opening arc, and what he did to some of Jason's history. The All-Caste gives him something that no other robin has. Although his "Joker controlled everthing" origin story is absolute shit.

Wouldn't that be more interesting that crap about tiger men, Venom and enemies from other planets? Seriously, he's a member of the Batfamily, not a member of the Fantastic 4.

Yeah.......cause Batman, Nightwing, and Drake have never fought all those things. Tell me, why should Jason be the one limited to street level stuff?

Well, perhaps something could happen to change his world view? And characters change all the time. It's better than Jason being generic wisecracking street hero number 242.

I'm not saying make him Punisher. I already pointed out how he could be thematically different from Frank.

Not really. They're all tied to secret ninja organisations like the LOA.

How many of Bruce's best batman stories involve all that sci-fi stuff? Honestly, if you only want Jason to fight those things because it gives him good feats to use on a battle forum, that's silly. Street level stuff can be the most compelling stuff in comics, filled with human drama and things people might be interested in. Look at how amazing Gotham Central or Bendis/Brubaker's Daredevil was. Jason grew up on the street, going back to what defines him as a character instead of trying to bog him down with a terrible set of mythos would be a welcome change.

@comicstooge:

Well, perhaps something could happen to change his world view? And characters change all the time. It's better than Jason being generic wisecracking street hero number 242.

Which could be cool, if done right. If he just gets a new writer and is automatically back to his Pre-Flashpoint self I'd hate it.

Not really. They're all tied to secret ninja organisations like the LOA.

All-Caste is more then the typical army of ninjas with an evil ruler cliche.

How many of Bruce's best batman stories involve all that sci-fi stuff?

Idk, I don't read a ton of Batman stuff tbh. But there's gotta be some good sci fi stuff.

Honestly, if you only want Jason to fight those things because it gives him good feats to use on a battle forum, that's silly.

Why......................Why does everyone think all I care about is battles? I like a great story just as much as everyone else. I am not saying I want Jason to fight only high end things, that would be silly. I am saying that every other Batfamily member has, so its also silly to think Jason shouldn't.

Street level stuff can be the most compelling stuff in comics, filled with human drama and things people might be interested in. Look at how amazing Gotham Central or Bendis/Brubaker's Daredevil was. Jason grew up on the street, going back to what defines him as a character instead of trying to bog him down with a terrible set of mythos would be a welcome change.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind him fighting street level things at all. I would love it after all the pointless cosmic stuff after cosmic stuff in RHatO. But what I don't want is his character development backtracked.....at all. And I'd like to keep him paired with Roy. I really like their dynamic.........but Roy could be a deeper character.

So take him away from what seperates him from the other Batman characters?

Basically make him do the same thing Nightwing does?

Could we not?

The fact that Jason's stories are so far out of the norm for Batman related characters is what makes them interesting, in my opinion. Gotham has way too many people doing a piss-poor job of protecting the place as is. Throwing Jason into that ring isn't going to do anything but make him just another street-level hero in Batman's city/shadow, like Grayson.

If anything, they need to get that Bat off his chest, and put him with some new teammates. Roy is fine, but teammates like Ravager and Ridge. Warblade would probably fit too, if he were still alive. Point being, if the goal is to make him more street-level for the sake of being street-level that's just silly.

No. Take away the things that make his book terrible.

Well no. For one thing, Dick's a secret agent right now and for another, Spiderman and Moon Knight both patrol New York. Doesn't mean they do the same thing. Jason's more like Nightwing than he's ever been and it's boring.

@scouterv said:

Jason and all the Batfamily are always in Bruce's shadow. That's the nature of his character - he was created under the Batman banner. All this stuff about removing the Bat symbol and basically putting him on a Teen Titans roster is just lame. It's why Tim Drake is such a lame character now. They're not Bat characters, they're just generic and boring.

Batman/Gotham has the richest, greatest mythos in comics. What's the harm of looking at it through a new pair on eyes in the form of Jason? It's making him street level because that's where the strength of the character lies. He was raised a tough street punk with a drug addict mother. Returning him to such a gritty setting would give a writer a lot to explore as opposed to just have Todd swing some Tron swords around.

Hence why you have a good writer have a go at it.

But if you think Bruce's best stories, you think of Year One, Dark Knight Returns, Long Halloween, The Killing Joke and such, they're all focused on gritty settings, character vulnerability and stuff that relates to the real world.

It's like saying you prefer Transformers 2 to Goodfellas.

@comicstooge: Never seen goodfellas. I can guarantee I like Terminator more.

What does Terminator have to do with this? I was just making an analogy.

You say those things make his book terrible? I say they make his stories interesting? I like apples you prefer oranges, which is cool, and just means we have different taste.

And you know what I mean. That's essentially what Nightwing did with Bludhaven. His own little city to guard and protect, same as Batman. Different character, understandably, but same concept which is fine, but I prefer different concept with different character to different character, same concept. Based on his adventures how is Jason like Dick now, and how would putting him back in Gotham, Bludhaven, or some other dark city help him?

Yes, and Jason is in a prime position to be more than just another Batman character. Not that DC ever would remove him from the family, but Jason and his stories hardly resemble anything you see in Batman stories and that is a good thing. You say putting him with Titan-centric characters makes him lame, but The Titans have had a lot of awesome characters developed through their mythos, like Garth, Drake, Slade, Grayson, Victor, Wally, etc. I'd take that over putting him back in Gotham so he can punch the same criminals day in and day out. And what would he do that's so special in Gotham?

Correction: Batman/Gotham has one of the richest mythos in comics. The harm in it is that it's a waste of a character who has potential to be more than just another looking glass for the thousandth view of Gotham. Not everything has to be on the streets, dark, and gritty. Don't we have enough stories like that? What's wrong with giving a character a chance to do something totally new? To explore the fantastical and strange side of things...with a dark and gritty point of view, yes, but that doesn't have to be the end-all-be-all for every Batman character and Jason is a perfect of example. Not saying everything about it is gold, but there's some solid and entertaining material there.

Most people on the Vine will say RHatO is pretty terrible.

Because Dick doesn't have the relationship that Jason to his city and they'd defend it in a different manner. Jason was always a darker character than Grayson. To take that away makes him just a clone, like he was Pre-Crisis.

People say that making him an anti-hero again would be a step back for the character, I disagree. Making him a clone of Dick, like he is now, is the real step back and why his character was created in the first place.

Right. And Jason was never the right fit for the Titans. That was even referenced in a bunch of Pre-Flashpoint stories. His character was defined by Gotham and by Batman's mythos.

They tried something new with Jason and the results were pretty poor. Truthfully, you could replace Jason with any generic, wisecracking snarky hero and any of his New 52 books would be exactly the same. Honestly, Jason is far better as a villain but he still has potential as an anti-hero. He has a space in Gotham where his character isn't forced to fight aliens and magicians in a failed attempt to make him relevant. The best Red Hood story is easily Under the Red Hood which was tied to Gotham and to Batman.

Lol, I read it as Terminator 2, not Transformers 2.

All g

The opinions of most people on the vine are of no actual concern to what I enjoy. Again, apples and oranges. Regardless of if I'm the only person that likes apples.

And we're right back to what I don't care for. Same concept with different character. I'm not implying Jason can't have a bit more darkness to his character than Grayson. What I'm saying is that little bit of darkness wouldn't make for a compelling story when you give the character the same concept as Grayson, regardless of his tie to said city.

While that may be true, that doesn't mean Jason can do nothing but Gotham and Batman-styled stories. Also Titans and Titan-centric characters are not the same thing, as Ravager has primarily been a foe of the Titans. She has a similar mentality, but different background than Jason which makes them a fine combination. Ridge is also a very new character and can fit in this regard, along with Harper.

Again, we'll just have to disagree on what "terrible" is. Wise-cracking, and snarky hero? Sounds like Spider-Man...or Green Arrow...what's your point? You could replace a lot of characters in their own stories and generally get the same results if you're just going to limit it to a couple of character traits. I say throwing him in Gotham is the ultimate sign of trying to force a character to be relevant. I'd much rather he be fighting aliens than...Doctor Phosphorus, but that's me. You're right, Under the Red Hood was a fine story. However, I enjoyed REDemption.

It absolutely changes things. Most heroes share the same concept - do gooder looks after a city and fights villains. What matters is what they do with it.

But at least he actually matters in Gotham. Outside of it, his stories exist in a vacuum where none of them make a difference.

I can tell we're never going to agree on this and we'll probably go in circles if the discussion continues.

Get Scott Lobdell off writing his book. Then I may actually consider reading it.

..........comic stooge. I think you just don't understand Jason as a character.

If I don't, then he's an even worse character than I thought he was.

1. Get him a new writer, goddammit anyone but Scott lobdell or james tynian(can't spell his name)

2.Get him away from the batfamily

3.break all his ties with the joker, change his name to red x

4.Complex stories about ptsd and coming back to life

5.Write him as a anti hero or a dark hero or a anti villain

Give him to a competent writer (ie, not Lobdell or Tynion) who will actually make him mildly interesting, and not some creepy self-insert fanfic character. It says a lot when the only discussion topics on this forum are either whining about how he's not as good as Dick Grayson, or who he should be "shipped" with.

All the current "Nightwing with a red helmet" stuff is crap.

@comicstooge: Completety agree with your suggestion! THAT is how Jason Todd should be, not what's been done with him recently.

Yep. They're literally taking him back to his Pre-crisis days all over again.

Agreed.

Cheers man.

That'd be a thousand times better than magic swords and secret ninja soul powers.

Then maybe he should change his suit as well?

@comicstooge: @cyberwarrior: yep red x suit and everything

Also jason needs an intelligence upgrade, whens the last time you've seen him do actually detective work ?

He was kinda dumb in red hood and the outlaws

Writer recommendations for Jason todd comic, or if he has to stay teamed up with Roy:

Mark Waid

Scott Snyder

Ed Brubaker

Judd Winnick (In case we want to bring him back as a tragic villain)

Warren Ellis

I know it's a long-shot with any of these options, but hey, a guy can dream, can't he?

They should get rid of the alien stuff, and go for a darker tone and more complex villians in his books but I some how like the All-Blades and I think an Untitled could make a pretty good villian if he gets some a little more characterisation and screen time before Jason kills him (and maybe is around for an storry arc instead of half an issue).

And if Jason is really a martial arts prodigy who can learn moves by watching Kung Fu Movies and was student of some ancient ninja monks they should show his skills more instead of just letting him shoot lots of Bullets without hitting anything (despite beeing an experts marksman) and constantly loosing against other Batfamily members like Barbara, Tim and Damian.

Buncha nerds in here. Yes, Rhato wasn't great. But there is no reason at all to reverse his character development for the past 4 years.

Lobdell has done an excellent job with Jason, giving him real motivations and a characterization beyond his vendetta against Batman. See, while Under the Red Hood was a good story writing-wise was a dead-end.

Jason would been never allowed to off any major rogues nor it would been allowed to roam free on an universe where Batman exists. This made him a one horse pony that got in the bad side of a lot of people. They tried to give him a place on the DCU with Countdown but we all know how that worked out. By the point of Batman RIP Jason was redundant on the Bat mythos: dark versions of Batman existed by the dozen, his motivations changed at the current writer's whim and his actions limited how he could interact with other characters.

Comes the N52 and editorial wisely takes the chance to streamline Jason's background, dropping elements didn't work and adding some really interesting ideas to differentiate him from his "brothers". Having Jason working actively with a recurrent cast allowed to flesh out and develop his character and gave him a definitive place on the DCU. He's now much more that his original UtRH version could've hoped to be.