@rurgandy: That is just awful. Maybe that editoral needs a REVAMP LOL. It seems like to me thats the problem.

Verdict on Genesis + Arkham Knight annual?

@entropy_aegis: Does it have decent writing and wont make me headbang something? Im been hearing about that series and been meaning to pick it up

@dark_tzitzimine said:

Issue 8 was wonderful. Roy got to be a badass, Jason showed why he's a hero, Lobdell confirmed Ducra and the All-Caste as being canon again and even JD's got a moment to shine!

Fernandez is also knocking out the park with the art, real pleased with how this series is going.

Anyways, the book is getting another variant on April from JRJR's hands

Fantastic, and the best thing is to see Medri's costumes again.

For the love of all that is fashionable...why do they insist on keeping a hat on Arsenal!?

I don't think Jason would take too kind to having to take orders from Waller. He prefers to do things his way, and I think that's compromised with The Squad. Jason isn't handicapped with Arsenal and JD. The series just needs to find better talent. I mean heck, they could just as easily bring back The Outlaws if they want Jason on a team book. Arsenal, Red Hood, Ravager, Crux, and JD would all fit perfectly.

And as for JD even joining the book, I think it's just to show that, Jason can be willing to help people. And yes, while Jason was on a Self-Destructive tear when he came back that doesn't match with JD's own insanity, the point is, this is someone Jason can help. It didn't have to be Joker's Daughter but it is and we have to accept that.Though I think it will be interesting to see how this develops JD.

Gonna guess she ends up becoming a new version of Scarlet down the line.

@scouterv said:

@dark_tzitzimine said:

Issue 8 was wonderful. Roy got to be a badass, Jason showed why he's a hero, Lobdell confirmed Ducra and the All-Caste as being canon again and even JD's got a moment to shine!

Fernandez is also knocking out the park with the art, real pleased with how this series is going.

Anyways, the book is getting another variant on April from JRJR's hands

Fantastic, and the best thing is to see Medri's costumes again.

For the love of all that is fashionable...why do they insist on keeping a hat on Arsenal!?

@linore said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@spentshrimp said:

@nathaniel_christopher: I could see him on the Suicide Squad. If he was, it would make for some great character moments between him and Harley Quinn. A good heart-to-heart conversation would be awesome to see.

Yeah, thinking about it thats the one team that would perfectly fit the character and even allow him to kill enemies and not have to worry about it if the writer wanted to go that route. It would also keep him far away from the Bat Family and allows for some pretty dangerous missions where he can show off all his skills. The interaction between him and his teammates can then be used for anything based on the lineup. In general I think a team like that fits him better than any other.

I honestly thought one of these days Jason would be on Suicide Squad. Makes the most sense to me. It just seems like both him and Tim get the short end of the stick when it comes to current stuff @.@

I don't think Jason would take too kind to having to take orders from Waller. He prefers to do things his way, and I think that's compromised with The Squad. Jason isn't handicapped with Arsenal and JD. The series just needs to find better talent. I mean heck, they could just as easily bring back The Outlaws if they want Jason on a team book. Arsenal, Red Hood, Ravager, Crux, and JD would all fit perfectly.

Pretty much everyone that's ever been on the Suicide Squad is a person that doesn't want to take orders from Amanda Waller, but is forced to. They then have to make the best of the situation, which is the entire point of the Squad. They don't have a choice. So Jason not wanting to listen to her is fairly irrelevant in terms of the story.

But Red Hood/Arsenal absolutely needs to find a better writer.

@nathaniel_christopher: Yeah, but the way you said it madenit sound like Jason was joining of his free will just to chill with Harley.

Plus, better people than The Squad have tried to bring Jason in and I doubt Bruce, Roy, or a lot of people really, would let Jason go without a fight. Plus, Jason would have no reason to stay.

I didn't say that. You're thinking of the other guy, because he's the one who brought up Harley. I simply mentioned that were he on the squad it would be incredibly weird were he and Harley paired together (Like it was weird when he randomly hooked up with Talia).

Everything else completely depends on the situation. Jason doesn't have a long list of friends that would even try to break him out for one thing, but even more than that he's still a criminal that has committed numerous crimes. And Waller works for the government, her resources are a match for Batman's on pretty much any day. Getting a hold of Jason and putting him on the squad wouldn't be hard. And similar to the point about not following orders, over the course of the team's history multiple members haven't wanted to be a part of it, but were forced to be a part of it. So its not really about Jason wanting to stay or having a reason to stay at all. Once he's on the Squad it then really depends on how close he is to the Bat Family at the time that they'd even be aware of where he was, along with how hard Waller tried to hide his location. Really it's all about how the situation is setup. I once would've said that Hal Jordan going insane, Guy Gardner becoming a Red Lantern, or Roy Harper becoming a junkie again were crazy ideas but they all happened because the writers wrote the story and created ways for it to happen.

@nathaniel_christopher: My mistake then. Though, I still disagree with some of your points. I would argue that Jason has powerful friends willing to go to bat for him. Starfire for one. Roy waged a one-man war against The League of Assassins to save Roy. And while the resources may be comparable, we've seen what Batman will do for his family. Plus, Jason isn't known for being caught very often. Jason isn't going down easy. I just don't foresee any scenario where Jason could remain with The Squad even if Waller did jail him.

And yes, he is a criminal. However, even Superman was willing to let the Outlaws go on Batman's word, so I don't see it as an issue.

The attempt might make for a good crossover Arc between Red Hood/Arsenal and Suicide Squad. Maybe an issue of Starfire, Harley Quinn, and Deathstroke too. Maybe call the event Hostile Takeover or something.

I didn't say Jason doesn't have powerful friends. I said that he doesn't have a lot of them. The ones he does have he doesn't even have readily available. I honestly wouldn't consider Roy all that powerful in the grand scheme. Starfire and Batman? Yeah, but Roy's a few levels below them. Just based off of the current situation, Batman's not even a factor, unless we're taking Jim Gordon into account. And Jim Gordon's not going after Jason. Heck, Jim Gordon's not going up against the American Government and Amanda Waller ever. (Except for Barbara and honestly I don't think he'd go all that far and then also couldn't see in what situation Barbara would be interacting with Waller anyways. She's not on the Justice League. And she's then not super anal about other powers in Gotham like Bruce is. I'd see Tim coming into contact with Waller before Barbara). Starfire's in a completely different part of the country and would therefore need to be made aware of the situation to even know that her help was needed, and it would then depend on whether or not Roy informed her of the situation. If he doesn't then she would never show up until however long after the fact. So if Jason was snatched up by the government right now that leaves Roy Harper being the only person that would immediately notice. I could then bring in how the rest of the Bat Family is busy with the whote Eternal and Robin War thing, but lets just assume all of that is done and look at their schedules.

Roy has zero way to get in contact with Dick and I don't even know that he's aware of Dick being alive. Damian's pretty much the same way, bouncing around the world in his own solo at the moment. That really only leaves Tim and Batgirl (I guess you could mention Harper, Stephanie, and maybe even Duke, but I honestly couldn't see Roy contacting them or any of them going after Jason unless ordered to anyways), who I could see him getting in contact with fairly easily. Whether or not they'd be capable of helping would then depend on what exactly is going on with them. Tim might be able to come, might be able to bring the entire team of Titans with him, or he might be caught up in some mess that the Titans are facing at the moment. Same applies to Barbara in turn, but lets just assume that both Tim and Barbara are free and that Roy goes to them for help at all. Heck, lets assume he goes to Kori for help as well and doesn't simply attempt to solve this disappearance to any extent on his own first. I could see them getting to wherever Waller is at a point and confronting her about Jason and laying all types of threats at her feet and such. I could then see them being confronted by the entire Suicide Squad team and Waller explaining how Jason is a criminal, how she could have them all locked up and thrown onto the team with him (And forced to stay there through whatever technological method that Waller wanted to use for that specific team, such as the old fashioned bomb in the head), and finally explaining how she has the backing of the President of the United States to formulate this team composed of known criminals. I could then see Jason telling the others that he appreciates what they've done for him, but that its best that they leave him there and not get dragged in like he is, and that's that.

In terms of catching Jason there's no doubt in my mind that he could be captured by the combined efforts of Black Manta, Captain Boomerang, Deadshot, Harley Quinn, and Reverse-Flash (And that's again just basing things off of a current scenario where things stand now. Were something like this to happen, heck were any storyline to be happening in regards to Red Hood/Arsenal it would be sometime in the future so that status quo wouldn't be what it is right this moment. Were something like this to happen, in my ideal world, Jason wouldn't even be partnered with Roy anymore so that'd remove him from the immediate field entirely, just like Kori is now) He's well trained, just like Batman is, but he's not unstoppable

Superman was willing to let Jason go. The government, Amanda Waller, wouldn't be.

In terms of Jason staying it could go a number of different ways. Could use the old tried and true technology angle. Bomb in the head if he tries to leave. No muss, no fuss. Could convince him to stay by offering a prize for his services, something that the character wants for whatever reason. Could flip it all and have him be there on a mission for Batman, just like Dick was with Spyral. Could have Waller threatening someone close to Jason that's then out of his reach, so he has to stay to keep said person alive or from something happening to said person. I don't really think its a difficult situation at all honestly.

@nathaniel_christopher: Roy has proven himself to be quite a threat. A genius able to learn from mistakes and adapt technology almost on the fly. I figure if he can break into the League of Assassins HQ he can break into Belle Rev and get Jason out. And come March, Bruce will indeed be under the cowl. This is under the assumption the typical status quo is in place.

I see Roy going to Starfire not long after this situation, assuming this happened and they just left Roy. He'd likely get Crux and possibly even Essence and Ravager. Just with the remaining Outlaws alone, he's got some good backup. Then add in Tim, Barbara, and The Titans?

I don't think there would be any discussion. They'll blast their way in and ask questions later.

And I think Jason, JD, and Arsenal could defend themselves well enough against The Squad.

Honestly, I think it could work--the attempt anyway, could be fun to see unfold. But, I think Jason could stay one step ahead of the law here. Those other methods could work, such as threatening someone, but then I think that's only gonna work so long. If he did join, it'll be about as long as Deathstroke's stint with the Squad.

He's a threat. I could see him breaking in. Couldn't see him getting out without a confrontation, which is the issue. And then if Jason himself simply isn't going to leave its a moot point.

I don't think the entire team of Titans would be brought into something like this. That typically doesn't happen unless the person in question is captured in a Titans book. Same with the Justice League and their members. Stories like this are typically handled in-house so to speak by the writers. So you'd have characters from their respective series/corners of the DCU appearing more likely than not. So I could see Roy and other members of the Bat Family. But i'd be surprised as hell to see the Titans or the League.

Blasting in is a dumb idea and only increases the chances of a discussion taking place, as it instantly alerts everyone in the facility that there are intruders. You then have a brief fight, before there's a stalemate/face-off, as typically happens in comic books where both sides talk. This doesn't even seem unlikely to me, it seems inevitable because it nearly ALWAYS happens.

That's a situation where the Squad attacks when JD and Arsenal are present. They could target Jason on his own. Heck, they could target him on his way back from Gotham at the end of Batman and Robin Eternal and take him completely by surprise, on an ariplane if he was taking one.

I don't see it lasting forever, because no one's on the Squad, heck no character's on ANY team forever. But I could see it lasting quite a while.

@nathaniel_christopher: I have no doubt there will be a confrontation. But better than The Squad have tried to keep Roy from Jason. This is arguably easier.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time The Outlaws and Titans have teamed up. I feel at a point like this, they'd help if Tim asked (or even if he didn't.) That's the team for you. And why would the team talk when they have the advantage of simply needing to get out? Waller would be the one wanting parlay. She might try to talk, but the team seem more likely to cut and run.

They could, but were talking ifs and buts here which muddies things up. I just don't see The Squad as a good place for Jason.

@nathaniel_christopher: I was thinking for the longest what to put. But you put what I would've said perfectly.

@scouterv: Anything is better than what is happening with Jason now. He's the only Robin besides Tim that gets crap decisions on him. All we want is options for him cause this series is just not working for me. I tried my best to get into it but its no dice for me. I can not get with the writing . I do respect your opinion as to why Jason doesn't work for suicide squad though. Jason needs something better in general.

Depends entirely on who Roy has with him and once more if Jason wants to leave at all based on the situation that Waller has him trapped in.

That could be said for a lot of occassions, yet Tim still operates without the Titans on a fairly regular basis. Heck, he's doing it right now. Same goes for Bruce, Nightwing, Batgirl, and really every single superhero. There are a lot of events that happen where you think (Why don't they just call so and so to help) but they never actually do. Because its a what-if you could easily say that Roy would call whoever and whoever would follow Tim, but the exact opposite is just as likely to happen.

If a member of the Squad captures a member of the team looking to rescue Jason and is threatening to blow his/her head off the team would talk. If Jason told the team to stop the team would talk. If the right person was seriously wounded the team would talk. This is similar to the above and similar to other comics where a team has a goal or is in a fight, yet a conversation still ends up taking place in-between. The team could only cut and run if they have Jason. If they're say blindsided by Waller and the Squad blocking the exit I don't see them continuing to just charge forth without talking first, especially when Waller would more than likely have some line that would lead to a conversation. It's pretty standard pre-fight banter.

You don't have to agree, that's your right. I see it as the perfect team for him and think there are a number of ways that it could easily work.

@linore lol great minds think alike. This isn't the only idea I have for Jason, I just think its the best team idea and makes a lot of sense. I've said before that for the whole Red Hood/Arsenal (Joker's Daughter) thing that besides getting rid of Lobdell I think that Jason should just be given his own solo altogether as well.

@nathaniel_christopher: I am actually checking out the Arkham Knight book now (even though I have a million other things to read UGHHHHHHHH). The writing doesn't seem that bad. I like it SO FAR. I am not cringing nor am I like oh god. Honestly Jason always looked like he was a solo person to me. Just make him go solo give him his own support characters his own setting etc. He has potential but all the talent are on the other robins well Dick and Damien. Hell Dick is getting the most creative changes or status quo changes from what I'm seeing with this new Court of Owls thing.

@nathaniel_christopher: But Roy didn't need anyone with him to get into the LoA HQ. He blew his way in and through the assembled Assassins. He shouldn't have much more trouble with security guards. Even stormtroopers one would expect in a Supermax.

The difference between then and now is that the Titans are actively working on becoming a more cohesive unit. And Tim really only leaves when there's crap going down in Gotham. Otherwise, I think they'd like to help if they know there's trouble, which Roy would likely tell all of them and not just Tim, because he probably knows Tim least of the Titans.

And you say there are what ifs and to an extent I agree. However, you have to take into account history and probability as well. It's the difference between saying It's likely Roy will

A. Shoot himself with an arrow.

B. Hit four guys in one shot.

A could happen. But history has shown, B is more likely. Just like how the Titans are likely to help or Kori would help Roy. And yes, you're right in your idea of a conversation happening. However, that implies someone getting caught or Jason wanting to stop. That's too many variables to pose for the hypothetical. Because that's just as easy to forsee as the perfect Smash and Grab.

In Ostranders run the Sucide Squad had actually a lot of members that weren't criminals or that were staying voluntarily after the bombs were removed and they were free to go.

Security guards no, suicide squad yes.

Uhh, Batman and Robin Eternal IS right now and the Teen Titans are nowhere to be found. Why? Who knows, they haven't been mentioned and probably won't be mentioned throughout the story, which is how stuff like this tends to go. The rest of the Justice League was nowhere to be seen during Batman Knightfall, War Games, or Court of Owls, yet you've had them be mentioned or show up during other events in Gotham. It doesn't really have anything to do with being super cohesive as a unit at all, but whether or not the writer of a given event wants them to show up, which typically doesn't happen. More than likely because various heroes being involved would lead to the problem being solved far quicker and with less tension in the story as a whole. You just said it yourself, Tim pops off to Gotham anytime something's going down and the Titans are again nowhere to be seen, so just because there's an issue with Jason doesn't mean they're suddenly going to get involved. And based on their previous lack of inclusion so far it would make no sense for them to be involved now. Were it Tim that were kidnapped it would make perfect sense, just as it makes sense for Kori to be called in terms of Jason. But if Roy gets a hold of Tim, who is the most likely person he'd call in the Bat Family minus Bruce, since Tim's been written as the person Jason's closest to in the Family aside from Bruce, there's little reason that Tim's going to have the Titans tag along, just like he doesn't have them tag along whenever something big is happening in Gotham.

How does Roy know Tim the least of the Titans? How well does he know any of the Titans Post-Flashpoint? Has he ever even met any of them? Tim at least would be a logical choice because Jason is Tim's brother/family. Even in the event that he's not buddy buddy with Tim him calling Tim makes sense instead of a group of random other heroes who he has no experience with. He's just going to call them to help him find a guy they in turn have never met? That makes no sense. You're talking about probability. With Roy being Jason's best friend and Tim being his brother I think the probability is high that he's mentioned one to the other a few times. Therefore, if Jason goes missing the chances are high that Roy would attempt to contact Tim about it directly, due to Jason's relationship with Tim.

You have to take into account that you're speaking of what might or might not happen in a story, the events of which are 100% under the control of the person writing it. A person who we don't know and may not even exist and couldn't possibly guess at because it is just an imaginary story. Honestly trying to argue as to who a writer would have Roy call and then trying to actually pin down what would happen based on probability doesn't make any sense. Roy could gather a team, have them break into the facility, rescue Jason, and be on their way. The entire thing could be a trap where the Suicide Squad ambushes Roy's team. Waller could send commandos after Jason, before confronting him herself and then coercing him into coming of his own free will. Starfire could be off the planet and unable to come to Jason's aid. Batman could find out about it first and go to look for Jason on his own. Roy could contact Tim and Tim might simply not tell the other Titans and consider it a family matter. Roy might find a trace of Jason right away and go off on his own. It's a comic book. New and unpredictable things happen all the time. It's also the exact same reason that i've only spoken in terms of what-ifs, because it's just a story idea that could go any number of ways, and what's more it would at best be a future story idea not taking place at this very moment in the DCU, which makes the entire setup even more nebulous. If you're going to talk about a possible story then all you're going to get is variables entering into the picture, the outcome of which can't be fully anticipated. More than anything else, it's about the story the writer wants to tell. If he wants a character to appear the character will appear. If he doesn't the character won't. It's literally as simple as that when it comes to comic books. But in terms of history, within the New 52 the Titans do not have a history of helping out in a variety of situations. They're better known for that Pre-Flashpoint and even then they're not really heavily known for that, nor is the Justice League or any team. As i've mentioned before there are numerous moments where a hero is in danger and then the writer 1)won't have the hero call any number of other heroes for aid or 2)won't have any other heroes simply go to the aid of the hero in danger. You can try justifying this for in-universe reasons such as heroes being busy as they naturally have their own lives (Throwing a variable I mentioned earlier into the fray, Tim and the Titans might be busy with a villain or a mission and therefore simply not capable of helping Roy or even being contacted by Roy) or an out of universe reason, such as editorial not wanting X hero to appear over in Y's series.

That being said, I understand to some extent what you're saying. it's absolutely more likely that Roy Harper will shoot someone with an arrow then that he'll shoot himself with an arrow. Just as it's more likely that Roy would contact either Kori or Tim, or Batman, in the event that something happened concerning Jason. However, that only takes you so far due to the fact that we are again speaking of a situation that is not only entirely hypothetical it's not even based on anything substantial within the current status quo minus the existence of various parties, since the series could take place (If it took place at all) years from now where the general makeup of the DCU is completely different than it is now, and we in turn couldn't even begin to predict such changes. Hence it again just being a general idea. Of which I only provided a few examples as to how such an idea could work.

@aahz Was unaware of that. Thanks for the info. Just goes to show that team dynamics change.

@linore At this point I think that Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian should all have their own solos. Dick and Damian because both of them already do right now and they're selling well. Tim because he's had one in the past that sold well and I still think him not having one in the New 52 was a dumb move. And Jason because Red Hood/Arsenal and Red Hood and the Outlaws before it was arguably been centered more around him than anyone else and would simply work better than either of the dynamics we've seen so far.

They had for example Nemesis and Nightshade joining the Team. Bronze Tiger stayed on the team after the brainwashuing by the League was undone, Deadshot stayed on the team since he had a deathwish, Enchantres (or er host) joined to get help with her powers and even Barbara Gordon had her first appearance as Oracle in this series and joined the squad for some time.

@nathaniel_christopher: Oh, I figure the Squad is in there too. I was basing it off the time Deathstroke broke in. He fought Squad members but also guards. However The Squad wanted to fight Deathstroke. Roy would have less a chance running into them, I think unless they were just out of their cells for whatever reason, and I feel like Roy would plan for a time that he wouldn't have that be the case.

And you're right, The Titans aren't in Batman and Robin: Eternal. However, they were there for Night of The Owls. And that is how The Titans met The Outlaws and by the end of their adventure together, Roy sort of developed a begrudging respect with them, I feel. Heck, he even commented that Bunker would be a member of The Justice League one day, so he obviously thinks highly of at least him. I find it more than strange that the Titans are rarely seen in these sort of things, but I get it. It's 8 times out of 10 Batfamily only in situations like Eternal and Robin War. However, for a crossover like this, it's not just Batfamily involved by proxy of Arsenal already being involved.

But then, I also understand we're both speaking for (what I believe) what would be best for the story itself and what the writer should do. I take it for your perfect scenario, any rescue attempt would be a bust for any number of reasons. For me, I envision a full-blown event that would see Red Hood just barely escape the clutches of the nefarious Amanda Waller! Obviously that was a bit much, but you kind of get where I'm going.

I am curious though, in your perfect scenario, do you see this strictly being a Red Hood/Arsenal/Suicide Squad deal?

@linore:I understand what you're saying, but I also think there is enough material to make Red Hood/Arsenal a better book, than just scrapping the entire thing, but that's just me because I think there's potential their, and I kind of like that I'm not knowing 100% where the story is going.

What Roy can or can't plan for directly correlates to the time he has to plan and then can't take into account the plans of the other party, such as one of the scenarios I mentioned above where he's expected and a trap is set for him, wherein the entire Squad is prepared.

Being that its still involving Jason Todd, who is a Batman character, it would primarily be Batman Family members involved, as they're the ones who know him and would have any kind of stake in something happening to him. The Titans would likely only be coming along in the event that Tim asked them to or unless Roy met up with the entire group and then they all insisted on coming along. The amount of people that Roy's already asked also plays into the equation as if he say already has himself, Batgirl, Duela, Kori, and Tim the chances of many more people coming along after that is slim because that then crowds the story, especially when the team by that point is pretty much matched with the Squad.

With the point of everything being that Jason's joining the Suicide Squad for a fairly long haul and not just for 3-6 issues then yeah, any rescue attempt (And I more than likely wouldn't have a major one happening at all. I'd probably stick to just Batman and a few other members of the Family) would end in failure in terms of getting Jason away from the Squad.

Nothing I've described is for a Red Hood/Arsenal event at all. It's for Jason to be a part of the Suicide Squad within the confines of said series. Roy plays no part in it beyond the typical cameo or mention that the characters from other properties play in team books that they aren't a part of. So ideally, this wouldn't be happening with the current setup of Jason and Roy being partners even. It'd happen however long after when Jason has his own solo.

@nathaniel_christopher: So Jason would just appear with the Squad for their next adventure with Waller just explaining why?

No. I'd have like a three issue storyline focusing on Jason joining the Squad and he'd then continue to appear there afterwards

I'd say a day or a few hours. If Jason is on the line, I feel like Roy would be in a huge hurry. So you have a point that The Squad may be ready, but then they might not suspect this to happen.

I disagree to an extent. Yes, the Batclan does have an interest, but in his stories, Jason has developed relationships with other characters who would just as easily come to his aid, if not more readily than the Batfamily, who is scattered all over the place from Gotham to wherever Damian is, etc. I was more honestly thinking it would be Roy, Starfire, Crux, Essence, and JD, personally. The Titans were just a very good possibility if they would choose not to use the rest of the Outlaws.

However, I see what you're getting at and it would work for the idea you have.

@scouterv: I only like not knowing what is going to happen if the writing and storytelling is good. In this case its not to me. I cant get on board with this series for it seems like Lodell is writing random crap just to throw it in there. Maybe Jason is fine with Roy maybe not. But what is happening with him now is just not working.

@linore: Sorry but I have to ask, are you actually reading Red Hood/Arsenal? Because while there is not a defined end goal (and why it should be in this series? Is just a story about two buddies having adventures) every story is developing upon the events of earlier ones. Lobdell actually bothered to logically frame the Robin War events into his story unlike other books like Grayson and We Are Robin that simply ignored the previous issue events.

Sounds like you didn't even read any of Robin War. Lobdell struggles to keep track of his own characters' progression. He just falls back on the "woe is me, I'll never be good enough" mantra once again.

@rurgandy: The hell are you talking about? Jason knowing he would never be able to completely fill Dick's shoes has been a thing since RHATO, the fact Jason has been finally able to admit that outloud to Tim is not only a proof of how strong their bond us, but also a huge development for Jason, and one that is perfectly in line with his current characterization.

@dark_tzitzimine: I have been reading it. But Im not getting "it" I suppose or what Lodell is trying to do.I am quite frankly confused about his writing at this point when he started off strong in the beginning before Roy/Arsenal to well this. As said I am confused by both the Big 2's writing and editorial decisions lately. Also dont apologize you asked a question and I am providing my perspective :) just like you. But in return I have a question why are you still on this thread(Not being an ass) you seem like the only person here who loves the series while everyone else doesnt (I suppose you can say). What is standing out to you? Am I missing something? Im curious and I hope this doesnt come off as being condescending I am just curious about what you see.

@linore: I enjoy Lobdell's work with Jason because so far he is the only writer that has bothered to go beyond "Joker killed me, I hate Batman and I'm a lone wolf" stuff and has gone into a different direction with him (just see how different Jason is in the most recent issue of B&R Eternal). The Jason that starred on RHATO 1 is a very different character to the one who starred RHATO 40 or is currently starring RH/A. Jason has put to rest all of his past traumas and has found on Roy's friendship a support he always lacked, allowing him to gain perspective and mature over his previous deeds. I mean, I enjoyed URTH as much as the next guy but that is a characterization that has hit a wall and needed to go.

By the way, I wouldn't put a lot of stock on this thread as sample of people tastes, is pretty much the same five posters every time. On other places like Reddit, CBR and even 4chan the book is well received by a lot of people.

It's also widely hated by people on the same sites. Liking the book is fine and dandy (There are a lot of people that like Batman Hush and just as many people that hate it), but trying to act as if it's a small minority that dislikes it is silly. For every fan you'll find a critic. And as i've said previously, rewiews and sales don't lie and Red Hood/Arsenal has some of the worst out of all the Bat Family titles at the moment. This is a fact.

For me, Lobdell's branched out more than any other writer that's handled Jason previously. That's also a fact (Well not counting Winick, since he's the one that developed the whole Red Hood idea, so as the original creator of said idea it was unique at the time, but was worn out by numerous writers after the fact). But doing something different doesn't instantly make your work good or put it above criticism, hence I still find the series as it currently is to be trash.

@linore To move into the question you asked him (Though you were asking him directly I just wanna make a point lol) it doesn't really matter whether he's the only one that likes the series or not, just as it doesn't matter whether any of us hate the series or not. This is thread for any discussion on Jason Todd. Good or bad and his series naturally falls into that category. So any fan of the character is welcome in the thread and Jason Todd section of the site.

Now if you just plain hate everything about the character and don't like him that's another thing entirely and you really shouldn't be here whatsoever lol that's why I never go to a Harper Row or Duke Thomas thread.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Nope. That would be Catwoman, Gotham Academy, Black Canary (when it actually hit the shelves) and if want to count it as one, Midnighter. RH/A even outsold We Are Robin in November.

It's actually well-hated on Reddit and 4chan. In fact, despite the fact posters on 4chan are anonymous, Tzitzimine gets called out frequently because everyone recognizes his style of shilling. Most on CBR find want Lobdell off the book as well, outside of a few fans who only care about Jason's "super power training".

@nathaniel_christopher: XD I know. I am just curious about his reason liking the current series seeing as it aint my cup of tea currently.Im wondering with the rebirth relaunch where this series get a new writer or not. Probably not. Also why do you hate those characters? XD

@dark_tzitzimine: Thanks for being honest.

@rurgandy: Yeah, the book is really hated in Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/3w1rgg/weekly_discussion_thread_december_9_2015/cxsm34o

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/40q9n4/weekly_discussion_thread_jan_13th_2016/cyw97mx

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/3w69g9/favorite_moment_from_red_hood_and_arsenal_7/

And despite what 4chan wants you to believe, I don't visit it that much outside the week RH/A is released.

Good thing I didn't say it had THE WORST. I said SOME of the worst, which it does. Reading is fundamental.

Outselling We Are Robin doesn't mean a single thing. We Are Robin outsold Red Hood/Arsenal in June, July, August, September, October, and most recently in December. And it's also a series with diminishing sales. So i'm not even sure why you'd mention that at all lol it outsold another series for a month after failing to do so for multiple months and failing again the month afterwards. That's not a good thing. So overall and most recently, We Are Robin is selling better than Red Hood/Arsenal. There's then Grayson, Robin Son of Batman, and Batgirl. From June through November Batman Beyond sold better than Red Hood/Arsenal, with last month being the first time that Red Hood/Arsenal outsold Batman Beyond, which you can attribute to Robin War, seeing as every title involved in that event recieved a boost in sales.

The series isn't anywhere near as universally liked as you seem to think it is. Again, sales and reviews don't lie. To be clear, it's not hated by everyone and i've certainly never implied it is. But the series having fans isn't proof of anything. Catwoman, Gotham Academy, and Black Canary all have fans. Doesn't change anything.

Had a long post, but I cut it down for space. Basically, I think Harper Row and Duke Thomas are the absolute worst kind of pet characters. They have no real purpose within the Batman Family as it currently exists. I've expanded on this in great detail over in the Batman section, but neither of them are necessary. It's like Snyder created them because he wanted a special feeling from using HIS own characters. He then uses and writes them instead of established Bat Family characters. I think its clear he wanted or wants Duke to be the next Robin, but that logically shouldn't happen based off of where Damian is now. Harper Row's more of the same. In a family that has Barbara, Cassandra, and Stephanie to pull from another girl just for the sake of having a girl isn't necessary. Snyder should be working with the characters that were already present in the Batman family at the start of the New 52. Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, and Barbara. Instead he decided it'd be a good idea to create two brand new characters that bring nothing special to the table that the rest of the family can't already bring. It's just silly. The situation is now actually worse than it was previously, because Cassandra and Stephanie are both back and therefore have to be used, making Harper even less essential than she was previously.

And moving on from usefulness and necessity, I think there's something to be said about only having a certain amount of people in the Bat Family. Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara. That's six people as it is (And doesn't count extended family like Batwing and Batwoman). The other four makes it ten. I just don't think you need that many people visiting the cave.

Half the praise in those comments are, "Well, it's not too terrible for Lobdell".

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/4275us/why_is_lobdell_still_getting_jobs/

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/3umaj3/why_does_red_hood_and_the_outlaws_get_so_much_hate/

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/3vhqhw/red_hoodarsenal_7_preview/

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/3umafr/why_does_red_hood_and_the_outlaws_get_so_much_hate/

It's quite telling that even fans of the book admit that Lobdell's writing has many flaws. And even moreso that the people defending Lobdell always jump on the "only SJWs hate it" defense

Heck, it's telling that even many people that like the series acknowledge that it gets a lot of hate. Stuff like that doesn't come from nowhere, despite many diehard fans wanting to believe the opposite. If there's a largescale backlash to something and a lot of people start mention it there's a reason, which is then reflected in sales and reviews and the only reason I ever mention them.

From some of the Reddit threads above:

"Anyone know when Lobdell walk away and hand it over to someone more competent?"

"Dialogue is really bad. The writer tries too hard to have edgy one-liners. Joker's Daughter is particularly cringey, too. And suddenly Jason hates the whole Batfamily except for Tim? Characterization is pretty bad, too. Looks like this is the weak link of Robin War."

"Jason's one of those characters that's better as a guest character than in his own series."

"I enjoyed Lobdell's run on the Outlaws and the beginning of this series, but I think he's off on this. DC should let somebody else take over. Lobdell did a fine job to make me enjoy Jason more, but take a break from it."

LOL this isn't a comicvine thing between 5 people. Everywhere you go you'll find readers that are unsatisfied with the series. Red Hood/Arsenal isn't some critically acclaimed future classic that everyone loves. Let's all just be realistic and honest with ourselves.

@nathaniel_christopher: Synder is another case I appreciate his work but sometimes I too have question. From what I get Harper comes off as meh. Matter of fact shes supposedly better at tech than Tim which has me scratching my head at that. I chalk that up Tim isnt loved enough and its sad. I hope Duke doesnt become Robin and to be frank the We Are Robin comic just seems redundant to me. Also since you brung up Batwoman reminds me of how much I miss her series. But I do agree the Bat fam has enough members as it is so no need to really tack on more.

@rurgandy: This goes back to DC should really look at the fan responses. This is kinda yeah

@nathaniel_christopher: That fourth comment hurt my soul. Like really bad. But that fifth comment is what I have been saying. I just dont know man you hoping for the Rebirth some things will change or naw? LOL thats the only hope.

The thing that really breaks my heart is Jason is a compelling character. But apparently Lodells writing is turning people off to him which unfortunately shows in sales etc. I really hope things brighten up for him

@rurgandy:Reading through those commentaries, there's still a lot of positive opinion about the book (even if half of them is about RHATO and thus unrelated to the RH/A topic) And I don't know why you point people mentioning his writing has flaws, every writer has flaws and at no point I've said Lobdell is perfect. However, is also telling that even about his flaws there's not a definitive consensus since for each people that doesn't like something, there's another that it enjoys it.

@nathaniel_christopher: So? Every series has its supporters and detractors and I never said this was a classic or anything of the sort. Lobdell is writing a fun action driven story of two friends having getting into trouble, very reminicent of 80's action flicks.

So the series has terrible reviews, terrible sales, and in general goes beyond just 5 people disliking it on this site as you implied. And this has been the status quo of the series since dating back to Red Hood and the Outlaws. Plain and simple. I also didn't say you said it was a classic. That was a general statement that wasn't aimed at you in particular. And just to repeat myself, i'm again not arguing that the series doesn't have its fans, because every series does. The point is that a large body of people also dislike it as well, which can't be denied whether you want to look at individual fans, reviews from critics, or just numbers.

Pretty much. Like every time they appear I get the sense that Snyder wants us to see how great Harper and Duke are to the detriment of other characters who could just as easily be used and rightfully should be used. Snyder didn't give Harper the Nightwing moniker like some people predicted and instead made her Bluebird. Ok? What does Bluebird bring to the table that Barbara, Cassandra, and Stephanie don't? The answer is nothing and when you're creating a new character that's the question you need to ask yourself. It's like if he created a new love interest for Bruce Wayne that's a news reporter when you already have Vicki Vale for that purpose. When Jason Todd was created it was because Dick Grayson had finally outgrown the role of Robin, was very clearly an adult, and was ready to move onto the next level. When Tim Drake entered the picture it was because Jason Todd had died and the spot of Robin was open, and after so much time the idea of Batman without a Robin for a long amount of time is somewhat strange. You could argue both ways for Damian, but even had he not come around Tim's time as Robin probably wouldn't have lasted much longer. He was nearing adulthood, was an effective leader, had held his own solo, and there was little doubt that he was ready to move on. None of this applies to Damian, so Duke Thomas exists why? It's just very, very silly to me that in a family as packed as Batman's is already that you'd go and create two new generic characters and then try to push them so heavily. It would be different if this was Superman or Wonder Woman, their families have always been pretty light for the most part, but Batman? When there are already issues with utilizing all the characters effectively? Silly.

And Duke is the same age as Tim, so eve if they make him Robin he will very fast outgrow this role.

For We Are Robin he is fine, but in the Batman series they should give Jason, Tim, Babs and Steph bigger parts (especially Tim could need it), and kick out Duke, Harper and Julia.

And see i'd completely forgotten that Julia's also there now. SMH geez Snyder really is really bad when it comes to handling the Bat Family.

I have a question. Where did this Joker=Jason Todd thing originate from. People are saying that for the movies

@linore: Crazy ass theory based on two things: Arkham Knight's Jason having a J branded in his face, while Leto's Joker has a J tattooed in the same place and people still refusing to accept a Joker with tatoos. From there people started grasping at the straws to find more and more "evidence" to support the idea.

@dark_tzitzimine: Look.. DC is trying to get their foot in the door. If they EVER made that theory true they might as well kiss their future good bye. XD That theory just sounds so ... ugh. Plus I have no problems with the tattoos cause in prison you will get tatted. If people have a problem with the Damaged tattoo in my head Harley probably put that on his head to be spiteful (cause how many times have they separated horribly, Harley getting mad at him and goes back to him?). I do however think Jason may be in the Batman solo flick would be nice seeing as Death in the family happened.

Red Hood/Arsenal 9 was great. Every character gets to show off their skills, and in JD's case, she gets some sorely needed development. As expected, Lobdell used this arc to close the book on her current characterization and now is ready to take her into a new direction. But really, the highlight of the issue is that she finally ditched the idiotic Joker's mask.

Now just ditch the Destro Helmet DC!

The twist about the Iron Rule was pretty damn effective and will serve perfectly to develop Roy's past, and certainly, the meeting with them is going to be very interesting. My only concern is the story being cut short by whatever Rebirth is. I guess we'll know once that May solicits hit.

Fernandez continues to do an astounding job with his art but sadly, the colorist in this issue wasn't quite up to the task. By using some noticeably muter colors, the whole book looks somewhat washed out and takes a lot of the impact. Hopefully either blond returns or Villarubia steps up his game for next issue.

I would also like to add that it's good to see that Jason All Caste training is still relevant, i was hoping he'd popped the blades out again.

I just want Red Hood to get a solo and get that plot and characterization he deserves