Should Jason have died instead?

#1 Edited by Magmaster12 (56 posts) - - Show Bio

Think about it as his final act of being a hero he could have actually done something meaningful and not feel like a complete waste like with Dick and it would have finally made Jason likable for once. Plus the idea of him being an undercover spy would make more sense.

#2 Posted by Erik (32762 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate how some users create a thread with only half an idea of what they want to express posted.

#3 Posted by Magmaster12 (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: What you want me to be more elaborate and waste my time writing a giant wall that most people won't even read!?

#4 Edited by Jayc1324 (12201 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

#5 Posted by Erik (32762 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: What you want me to be more elaborate and waste my time writing a giant wall that most people won't even read!?

If you are going to make a thread, why not make it something WORTH reading?

#6 Posted by Magmaster12 (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: Because I want to see other people thoughts on an idea not amuse people with some with an elaborate fan fic.

#7 Posted by Erik (32762 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: Because I want to see other people thoughts on an idea not amuse people with some with an elaborate fan fic.

OR you were just unable to make a thread worth reading...

#8 Posted by Magmaster12 (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: Yeesh don't be such a snob, I just wanted to see peoples thoughts on a basic idea not create an elaborate theory end of story.

#9 Posted by Justthatkid (3830 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Red Hood but would prefer Jason the spy over Grayson maybe the entire Outlaws group could of been spies..

#10 Posted by Erik (32762 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: Yeesh don't be such a snob, I just wanted to see peoples thoughts on a basic idea not create an elaborate theory end of story.

Your post isn't even a basic idea. It's an idea fragment. There is no arguing the matter, if you put even a pinch of effort into your thread, these thoughts you are seeking from others would also be of similar quality.

If all you are looking for is one-sentence posts on your "idea", then mission accomplished. But would you be interested in reading such replies? It very clearly couldn't have hurt you to at least pretend to be capable of putting thought into a topic and stimulating interesting, noteworthy conversation.

#11 Posted by Slonewolf (21 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like the phrasing of this question but to answer it, that already happened the first time he died heroically. Even after being betrayed by his biological mother to the Joker, he still tried to save her from the exploding warehouse. Though the idea of being a spy probably worked for Jason in a different light for two reasons, IMO:

  • Jason being a spy would have worked in the Pre-New 52, especially after him and his sidekick Scarlet left Gotham. Then whatever organization, like Spyral or Task Force X would have recruited him and he would be able to do what he does without the rest of the Bat-Family getting in his way.
  • Thomas Wayne Jr. (Earth-3 Owlman that is still alive) had an obsession with not wanting to fail the proxy Grayson like he did with his Grayson (Earth-3 Talon) and probably will continue on in the near future. He wouldn't have wasted his time on Jason, or any of the other Batkids since he wasn't emotionally connected to them. He would have killed them on the spot at Arkham, had Jason brought in Zsasz, or in front of all the villains at the fallen Watchtower to illustrate the point of their takeover.

I hope this is the answer you were looking for.

#13 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

#14 Posted by daredevil21134 (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

#15 Edited by Jayc1324 (12201 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134: Yeah Jason was way better in the under the hood animated movie. He's cool now new 52 but still a jerk sometimes but I guess that's his character. He kind of blurs the line between anti hero and hero

#16 Edited by daredevil21134 (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@daredevil21134: Yeah Jason was way better in the under the hood animated movie. He's cool now new 52 but still a jerk sometimes but I guess that's his character. He kind of blurs the line between anti hero and hero

Yes sir. They don't need him to be the nice guy because Grayson does it well already. They only thing I wish they didn't do was give Jason Roy and Kory.I would have much rather Jason have Connor Hawke and somebody else instead

#17 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@jayc1324 said:

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

#18 Posted by daredevil21134 (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@jayc1324 said:

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

Hmmmmm Tim a Spy? Why Tim?

#19 Edited by _Atomikill_ (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope

#20 Posted by Jayc1324 (12201 posts) - - Show Bio

Also I don't think Jason dying wouldn't have as great of an effect. Everyone else would've cared way less than they do about dick dying. It wouldn't be the first time they lost Jason, and he was a jerk anyway.

#21 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@jayc1324 said:

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

Hmmmmm Tim a Spy? Why Tim?

I've always classified them fairly easily. More than any of the others, any member in the family really, Dick thrives in the spotlight. On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument. Damian would be a great assassin, but his personality doesn't really mesh with being a spy. Tim's the guy who's the best at gathering information and connecting pieces of a puzzle , which is why he was such a good detective. (Though i'm also speaking of Pre-Flashpoint Tim. I haven't kept up with him since the beginning of the Reboot, so he could be completely different now)

#22 Posted by daredevil21134 (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@jayc1324 said:

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

Hmmmmm Tim a Spy? Why Tim?

I've always classified them fairly easily. More than any of the others, any member in the family really, Dick thrives in the spotlight. On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument. Damian would be a great assassin, but his personality doesn't really mesh with being a spy. Tim's the guy who's the best at gathering information and connecting pieces of a puzzle , which is why he was such a good detective. (Though i'm also speaking of Pre-Flashpoint Tim. I haven't kept up with him since the beginning of the Reboot, so he could be completely different now)

I actually think Jason under Winick is pretty capable of being a spy

#23 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 I think that any member of the Bat Family has the skills, but that Tim's the best fit all around. Though I again haven't followed in Post-Flashpoint for quite a while, so it may no longer apply.

#24 Posted by daredevil21134 (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 I think that any member of the Bat Family has the skills, but that Tim's the best fit all around. Though I again haven't followed in Post-Flashpoint for quite a while, so it may no longer apply.

Very tru. I heard Tim is a mess in the New 52

#25 Posted by Boss1500 (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason is fine the way he is in the new 52 he just need his own series away from the outlaws

#26 Posted by Aahz (87 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

#27 Posted by daredevil21134 (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@daredevil21134 said:

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

I agree. I think Jason is a perfect candidate for espionage work .Jason's anger is overrated imo. He knew his anger was what helped got him killed so he's a lot more careful with it than he was before.At least under Winick's pen

#28 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@daredevil21134 said:

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

Even the most impatient person can be the exact opposite when called for or in dire circumstances. Even the most controlled person can give himself over to anger and irrationality, which is why I said "On average", as in most consistently. It's not out of the ordinary for Tim to be that way, which is part of why I said out of all the Robin's he'd fit. That doesn't mean that none of the other Robins could be a spy. They're all capable of being one, including most other members of the Bat Family as well, because most of the skills they learn from Bruce or their other teachers can easily be applied to it. I'm saying that Tim's the one I think would fit best.

#29 Posted by daredevil21134 (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@daredevil21134 said:

Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

Even the most impatient person can be the exact opposite when called for or in dire circumstances. Even the most controlled person can give himself over to anger and irrationality, which is why I said "On average", as in most consistently. It's not out of the ordinary for Tim to be that way, which is part of why I said out of all the Robin's he'd fit. That doesn't mean that none of the other Robins could be a spy. They're all capable of being one, including most other members of the Bat Family as well, because most of the skills they learn from Bruce or their other teachers can easily be applied to it. I'm saying that Tim's the one I think would fit best.

Fair Enough

#30 Posted by Aahz (87 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it depends on what kind of spy do you want.

If beeing a spy is just about gathering information, Tim is probably the best. But asfaik he is still a teenager in the new 52 and there for a little bit to young to go undercover.

For assassinations and sabotage i go with Jason.

And for the gentleman/playboy spy with with lots of Bondgirls Dick is probably the best.

#31 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

By definition a spy is "a person who secretly collects and reports information on the activities, movements, and plans of an enemy or competitor."

That's the only type of spy I recognize, one that gathers information and can aptly defend himself to get in and out of situations, because that's a spy's main job. Everything else is extra. James Bond is great, I love his films, i'll probably buy and watch some within the next few days, but he's what I think of as a Hollywood Spy, meant to make it look good and glamorous for the big screen. Now don't get me wrong, sometimes a spy may have to assassinate or kill someone during a mission, because variables change all the time in those situations. That's where Tim's training from Bruce comes in, and why I say any of the Robin's could be Spies, because they've all received the physical training and conditioning to fight, and kill people if need be. Though, given the appearances of all (Dick, Jason, Tim, and probably Damian if we ever see him return and age, and even throw in Terry), the male members of this family could all play the James Bond, smooth, casanova, lady killer role.

And if I wanted solely an assassin i'd probably go with Damian. In terms of cold, ruthless detachment he seems to have that down the best, and won't let his emotions before, during, or after the event get in the way. Again, I believe any of the Robin's could be assassins, but I think Damian's the best suited to having it as his main trade, and of course it helps that he was trained from birth to do that lol if not Damian though it'd be Jason, though I also would expect to see a little more collateral damage from Jason than I would Damian.

#32 Posted by Aahz (87 posts) - - Show Bio

But don't think there is so much difference between a Hollywood Spy and a Comic Book Spy.

Tim and Dick have skills to be assassins but i don't think they would actually kill another person (at least not with some mental breakdown afterwards).

Damien would be imho a horrible Spy, he has the skills but he is not able or willing to act like a normal person.

#34 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

But don't think there is so much difference between a Hollywood Spy and a Comic Book Spy.

Tim and Dick have skills to be assassins but i don't think they would actually kill another person (at least not with some mental breakdown afterwards).

Damien would be imho a horrible Spy, he has the skills but he is not able or willing to act like a normal person.

*shrug* I guess we'll see with Grayson.

Naah as they're currently written neither would kill another, though if you're writing the story it's easy enough to get around that.

#35 Edited by JonnytheWolf (103 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

this.

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