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    Jason Todd

    Character » Jason Todd appears in 1742 issues.

    Jason Todd was the second Robin, until he was brutally murdered by the Joker. After he was resurrected, Jason learned Batman didn't avenge his death. Anguished and seeking vengeance, he initially turned against his mentor and father figure and took on the Clown Prince's former identity: the Red Hood. He eventually returned to the Bat-Family and assembled a team of anti-heroes known as the Outlaws.

    Should Jason have died instead?

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    Magmaster12

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    #1  Edited By Magmaster12

    Think about it as his final act of being a hero he could have actually done something meaningful and not feel like a complete waste like with Dick and it would have finally made Jason likable for once. Plus the idea of him being an undercover spy would make more sense.

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    Erik

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    I hate how some users create a thread with only half an idea of what they want to express posted.

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    Magmaster12

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    @erik: What you want me to be more elaborate and waste my time writing a giant wall that most people won't even read!?

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

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    Erik

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    @erik: What you want me to be more elaborate and waste my time writing a giant wall that most people won't even read!?

    If you are going to make a thread, why not make it something WORTH reading?

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    Magmaster12

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    @erik: Because I want to see other people thoughts on an idea not amuse people with some with an elaborate fan fic.

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    Erik

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    @erik: Because I want to see other people thoughts on an idea not amuse people with some with an elaborate fan fic.

    OR you were just unable to make a thread worth reading...

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    Magmaster12

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    @erik: Yeesh don't be such a snob, I just wanted to see peoples thoughts on a basic idea not create an elaborate theory end of story.

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    Erik

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    @erik: Yeesh don't be such a snob, I just wanted to see peoples thoughts on a basic idea not create an elaborate theory end of story.

    Your post isn't even a basic idea. It's an idea fragment. There is no arguing the matter, if you put even a pinch of effort into your thread, these thoughts you are seeking from others would also be of similar quality.

    If all you are looking for is one-sentence posts on your "idea", then mission accomplished. But would you be interested in reading such replies? It very clearly couldn't have hurt you to at least pretend to be capable of putting thought into a topic and stimulating interesting, noteworthy conversation.

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    Slonewolf

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    I don't like the phrasing of this question but to answer it, that already happened the first time he died heroically. Even after being betrayed by his biological mother to the Joker, he still tried to save her from the exploding warehouse. Though the idea of being a spy probably worked for Jason in a different light for two reasons, IMO:

    • Jason being a spy would have worked in the Pre-New 52, especially after him and his sidekick Scarlet left Gotham. Then whatever organization, like Spyral or Task Force X would have recruited him and he would be able to do what he does without the rest of the Bat-Family getting in his way.
    • Thomas Wayne Jr. (Earth-3 Owlman that is still alive) had an obsession with not wanting to fail the proxy Grayson like he did with his Grayson (Earth-3 Talon) and probably will continue on in the near future. He wouldn't have wasted his time on Jason, or any of the other Batkids since he wasn't emotionally connected to them. He would have killed them on the spot at Arkham, had Jason brought in Zsasz, or in front of all the villains at the fallen Watchtower to illustrate the point of their takeover.

    I hope this is the answer you were looking for.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @jayc1324 said:

    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

    Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

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    daredevil21134

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    @jayc1324 said:

    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

    Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @daredevil21134: Yeah Jason was way better in the under the hood animated movie. He's cool now new 52 but still a jerk sometimes but I guess that's his character. He kind of blurs the line between anti hero and hero

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    daredevil21134

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    #16  Edited By daredevil21134

    @jayc1324 said:

    @daredevil21134: Yeah Jason was way better in the under the hood animated movie. He's cool now new 52 but still a jerk sometimes but I guess that's his character. He kind of blurs the line between anti hero and hero

    Yes sir. They don't need him to be the nice guy because Grayson does it well already. They only thing I wish they didn't do was give Jason Roy and Kory.I would have much rather Jason have Connor Hawke and somebody else instead

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @jayc1324 said:

    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

    Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

    In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

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    daredevil21134

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    @daredevil21134 said:

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @jayc1324 said:

    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

    Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

    In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

    Hmmmmm Tim a Spy? Why Tim?

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    _Atomikill_

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    #19  Edited By _Atomikill_

    Nope

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    Also I don't think Jason dying wouldn't have as great of an effect. Everyone else would've cared way less than they do about dick dying. It wouldn't be the first time they lost Jason, and he was a jerk anyway.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @daredevil21134 said:

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @jayc1324 said:

    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

    Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

    In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

    Hmmmmm Tim a Spy? Why Tim?

    I've always classified them fairly easily. More than any of the others, any member in the family really, Dick thrives in the spotlight. On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument. Damian would be a great assassin, but his personality doesn't really mesh with being a spy. Tim's the guy who's the best at gathering information and connecting pieces of a puzzle , which is why he was such a good detective. (Though i'm also speaking of Pre-Flashpoint Tim. I haven't kept up with him since the beginning of the Reboot, so he could be completely different now)

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    daredevil21134

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    @daredevil21134 said:

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @daredevil21134 said:

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    @jayc1324 said:

    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

    Bingo, though, Under the Hood was a good, solid story. It was all downhill after that however.

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    You're right. He could've been better, but he wasn't. I also agree that now, after much failure, they've found a good place for the character though.

    In terms of the thread question, I don't much like the idea of Dick Grayson as a spy, much less Jason Todd. If anything, I think Tim Drake fits that role better than any of Bruce's "sons"

    Hmmmmm Tim a Spy? Why Tim?

    I've always classified them fairly easily. More than any of the others, any member in the family really, Dick thrives in the spotlight. On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument. Damian would be a great assassin, but his personality doesn't really mesh with being a spy. Tim's the guy who's the best at gathering information and connecting pieces of a puzzle , which is why he was such a good detective. (Though i'm also speaking of Pre-Flashpoint Tim. I haven't kept up with him since the beginning of the Reboot, so he could be completely different now)

    I actually think Jason under Winick is pretty capable of being a spy

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @daredevil21134 I think that any member of the Bat Family has the skills, but that Tim's the best fit all around. Though I again haven't followed in Post-Flashpoint for quite a while, so it may no longer apply.

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    daredevil21134

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    @daredevil21134 I think that any member of the Bat Family has the skills, but that Tim's the best fit all around. Though I again haven't followed in Post-Flashpoint for quite a while, so it may no longer apply.

    Very tru. I heard Tim is a mess in the New 52

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    deactivated-5dba458f4f4e8

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    Jason is fine the way he is in the new 52 he just need his own series away from the outlaws

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    Aahz

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    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

    On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

    In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

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    daredevil21134

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    @aahz said:

    @daredevil21134 said:

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

    In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

    I agree. I think Jason is a perfect candidate for espionage work .Jason's anger is overrated imo. He knew his anger was what helped got him killed so he's a lot more careful with it than he was before.At least under Winick's pen

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @aahz said:

    @daredevil21134 said:

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

    In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

    Even the most impatient person can be the exact opposite when called for or in dire circumstances. Even the most controlled person can give himself over to anger and irrationality, which is why I said "On average", as in most consistently. It's not out of the ordinary for Tim to be that way, which is part of why I said out of all the Robin's he'd fit. That doesn't mean that none of the other Robins could be a spy. They're all capable of being one, including most other members of the Bat Family as well, because most of the skills they learn from Bruce or their other teachers can easily be applied to it. I'm saying that Tim's the one I think would fit best.

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    daredevil21134

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    @aahz said:

    @daredevil21134 said:

    Jason Todd is fine the way he is now and could have been better pre 52 if DC knew how to handle anti heroes better but rather than have Jason call Batman out on his failed justice system they turned him into a complete waste and stripped him from everything cool

    The problem with Jason pre 52 was in my opinion, that his goal was to kill of the most dangerous Batman villains. But since these guys are fare to important for the franchise he could only kill some nameless drug dealers. In Under the Hood he could have easily killed Black Mask and the Joker, but didn't do it, and even Captain Nazi somehow survived.

    @nathaniel_christopher said:

    On average, Jason's not subtle enough to be a spy, more like a blunt instrument.

    In Red Hood the Lost Days he is basicly undercover in several criminal organisations, so he is able to be subtle if he wants to and he is able to kill if it is necessary.

    Even the most impatient person can be the exact opposite when called for or in dire circumstances. Even the most controlled person can give himself over to anger and irrationality, which is why I said "On average", as in most consistently. It's not out of the ordinary for Tim to be that way, which is part of why I said out of all the Robin's he'd fit. That doesn't mean that none of the other Robins could be a spy. They're all capable of being one, including most other members of the Bat Family as well, because most of the skills they learn from Bruce or their other teachers can easily be applied to it. I'm saying that Tim's the one I think would fit best.

    Fair Enough

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    Aahz

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    I think it depends on what kind of spy do you want.

    If beeing a spy is just about gathering information, Tim is probably the best. But asfaik he is still a teenager in the new 52 and there for a little bit to young to go undercover.

    For assassinations and sabotage i go with Jason.

    And for the gentleman/playboy spy with with lots of Bondgirls Dick is probably the best.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    By definition a spy is "a person who secretly collects and reports information on the activities, movements, and plans of an enemy or competitor."

    That's the only type of spy I recognize, one that gathers information and can aptly defend himself to get in and out of situations, because that's a spy's main job. Everything else is extra. James Bond is great, I love his films, i'll probably buy and watch some within the next few days, but he's what I think of as a Hollywood Spy, meant to make it look good and glamorous for the big screen. Now don't get me wrong, sometimes a spy may have to assassinate or kill someone during a mission, because variables change all the time in those situations. That's where Tim's training from Bruce comes in, and why I say any of the Robin's could be Spies, because they've all received the physical training and conditioning to fight, and kill people if need be. Though, given the appearances of all (Dick, Jason, Tim, and probably Damian if we ever see him return and age, and even throw in Terry), the male members of this family could all play the James Bond, smooth, casanova, lady killer role.

    And if I wanted solely an assassin i'd probably go with Damian. In terms of cold, ruthless detachment he seems to have that down the best, and won't let his emotions before, during, or after the event get in the way. Again, I believe any of the Robin's could be assassins, but I think Damian's the best suited to having it as his main trade, and of course it helps that he was trained from birth to do that lol if not Damian though it'd be Jason, though I also would expect to see a little more collateral damage from Jason than I would Damian.

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    Aahz

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    But don't think there is so much difference between a Hollywood Spy and a Comic Book Spy.

    Tim and Dick have skills to be assassins but i don't think they would actually kill another person (at least not with some mental breakdown afterwards).

    Damien would be imho a horrible Spy, he has the skills but he is not able or willing to act like a normal person.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @aahz said:

    But don't think there is so much difference between a Hollywood Spy and a Comic Book Spy.

    Tim and Dick have skills to be assassins but i don't think they would actually kill another person (at least not with some mental breakdown afterwards).

    Damien would be imho a horrible Spy, he has the skills but he is not able or willing to act like a normal person.

    *shrug* I guess we'll see with Grayson.

    Naah as they're currently written neither would kill another, though if you're writing the story it's easy enough to get around that.

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    JonnytheWolf

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    #35  Edited By JonnytheWolf

    @jayc1324 said:

    Jason should have stayed dead from 1988. He's done nothing except be a nuisance since then. He was more important and had more a legacy being dead than he does being alive now.

    this.

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    flying_fish

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    Interestingly enough, Jason right now exhibits pretty much the same traits that got him killed in the first place. He's whiny, unsympathetic, and comes across as "try-hard" edgy, and he just keeps inviting unfavorable comparisons to Dick Grayson. Seems like after Under the Red Hood, no one (except probably Morrison) knew what to do with him.

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    Aahz

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    Interestingly enough, Jason right now exhibits pretty much the same traits that got him killed in the first place. He's whiny, unsympathetic, and comes across as "try-hard" edgy, and he just keeps inviting unfavorable comparisons to Dick Grayson. Seems like after Under the Red Hood, no one (except probably Morrison) knew what to do with him.

    In Batman Eternal yes, in his own series (and his original comics) not. And Morrisons got the character completely wrong.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    Interestingly enough, Jason right now exhibits pretty much the same traits that got him killed in the first place. He's whiny, unsympathetic, and comes across as "try-hard" edgy, and he just keeps inviting unfavorable comparisons to Dick Grayson. Seems like after Under the Red Hood, no one (except probably Morrison) knew what to do with him.

    Morrison? Grant Morrison? As in the guy that gave us this abomination?

    No Caption Provided

    lol come on now. Besides that atrocious outfit and the ridiculous idea that Jason's Todd's hair has apparently always been red, the rest of what Morrison did was nothing special. Though I will be fair and say that Batman and Robin at least was just continuing with the trend that was started by Battle for the Cowl, and arguably even Under the Hood.

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    flying_fish

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    The outfit is over-the-top, but that's Morrison for you. And he actually gave Jason a unique role, as opposed to right now, where Jason's just the 3rd/4th most interesting Robin. Jason doesn't need to be some writer's inner fantasy, like Lobdell (and Winick later on) make him out to be.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @flying_fish said:

    The outfit is over-the-top, but that's Morrison for you. And he actually gave Jason a unique role, as opposed to right now, where Jason's just the 3rd/4th most interesting Robin. Jason doesn't need to be some writer's inner fantasy, like Lobdell (and Winick later on) make him out to be.

    Honestly, when Morrison was writing Jason, he had a set role yes, but he didn't come off to me as much different than he is now. I in fact felt really bad for him and that he was kind of pathetic to have fallen so, so far. (I'm speaking of considering his fall by this point to be even further than dying and further than he'd fallen in Under the Hood) This was the point, and writing wise it again kept in touch with the events of Under the Hood and Battle for the Cowl, where Jason really seemed to be going insane to me, as if he just wasn't all there and was well and truly damaged. If anything, I think that was around the time that the character should've been killed off again. And really all those events, one after the other, didn't make him the 3rd or 4th most interesting Robin as you say he is now, but they just made him the one that you feel sorry for and just want his pain to end, which I don't think is any better.

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    oompers

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    I think the big difference is the Morrison's Jason was a villain who still earned just a smidge of sympathy. Not enough to forgive him for what he did, but just enough to see where he's coming from.

    Scott Lobdell, on the other hand, expects readers to treat Jason like a hero despite being even less sympathetic than Morrison's crazed and murderous take. Lobdell's Jason just kind of whines and acts like he's "misunderstood", and it doesn't help the Lobdell writes the Batfamily extremely out-of-character to support that. I'd say he's the worst written character in the Batfamily, but that'd be a lie when you consider Lobdell's Tim Drake. Honestly, Harper Row feels like a more complete character from her one-shot in Snyder's Batman than either Tim or Jason.

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    Aahz

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    #42  Edited By Aahz

    @oompers said:

    Scott Lobdell, on the other hand, expects readers to treat Jason like a hero despite being even less sympathetic than Morrison's crazed and murderous take. Lobdell's Jason just kind of whines and acts like he's "misunderstood", and it doesn't help the Lobdell writes the Batfamily extremely out-of-character to support that.

    Examples?

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    Yeah, I'd like to see those examples too. I mean, the batfamily has only showed up once through all of RHATO.

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    oompers

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    Tim being used as a prop who somehow doesn't mind that Jason has tried to kill him (which Jason even references) because "oh you were just angry". Bruce randomly letting Jason hang around and brushing off his past crimes and his dependency on guns as merely "not agreeing with [his] methods", even though Jason's "methods" completely go against everything that Bruce stands for. And then there's Roy bickering with Damian because apparently Roy's a ten year old.

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    @oompers:

    Tim being used as a prop who somehow doesn't mind that Jason has tried to kill him (which Jason even references) because "oh you were just angry".

    You're mixing stuff here. Jason only admitted wanting to kill Dick and that was on RHATO's issue 1, said statement was a consequence of editorial not knowing yet how handle the Batman timeline on the N52 and thus just carrying over Jason's actions from the Pre Flashpoint line. Thi has been retconned over time and has never been brought again for any writer (is the same reason the TT were mentioned on the first printing for several books, but then removed on TPBs).

    For Tim, Jason only says and I quote "I wasn't always the nicest guy to you either, Drake" An allusion to Jason wanting to kill him is nowhere to be found and Tim idolizing Jason's tenure as Robin is a huge part of his N52 characterization. You might not like it but is in character for them.

    Bruce randomly letting Jason hang around and brushing off his past crimes and his dependency on guns as merely "not agreeing with [his] methods", even though Jason's "methods" completely go against everything that Bruce stands for.

    So? Alfred is fond of using as well and he enjoys the same leniency as Jason. Plus on the N52 Bruce has always been written as more willing to get Jason back in the fold as his dream sequence during DOTF or Jason's cameo on JL 19 shows.

    And then there's Roy bickering with Damian because apparently Roy's a ten year old.

    I dunno why you mention Roy since he isn't part of the batfamily but Roy it IS pretty childish and getting into a pissing contest with Damian is expected of him

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    oompers

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    @dark_tzitzimine:

    For Tim, Jason only says and I quote "I wasn't always the nicest guy to you either, Drake" An allusion to Jason wanting to kill him is nowhere to be found and Tim idolizing Jason's tenure as Robin is a huge part of his N52 characterization. You might not like it but is in character for them.

    Then that's a worthless line. A writer needs to choose his words carefully and deliberately (granted, we're talking about Lobdell here). Lobdell fails to properly establish Jason and Tim's history in New 52 universe. Because of that, the audience is forced to draw their own conclusions. A reader who is familiar with pre-Flashpoint Jason will assume that he's alluding to Battle for the Cowl. A reader who has only been reading RHATO will deduce that, based on Jason's comments about Dick in #1 and his flashback of attacking Bruce, that Jason also attacked Tim at some point. Lobdell needs to choose his words more carefully, as "wasn't exactly nice to you" sounds a lot worse than Jason not picking up Tim for soccer practice.

    So? Alfred is fond of using as well and he enjoys the same leniency as Jason. Plus on the N52 Bruce has always been written as more willing to get Jason back in the fold as his dream sequence during DOTF or Jason's cameo on JL 19 shows.

    Alfred isn't a trained vigilante running around the streets firing off guns on a regular basis. There's a reason why the Batfamily specifically trains in combat that doesn't utilize guns. That stuff in DOTF and JL came after the editorial decision to fold Jason back into the family, to use him in tie-ins. Even then, Lobdell's execution of that scene could have been much better than just handwaving Bruce's principles.

    I dunno why you mention Roy since he isn't part of the batfamily but Roy it IS pretty childish and getting into a pissing contest with Damian is expected of him

    There's a point when a character trait stops being a character trait, and just becomes a point of caricature from that character's own writer.

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    @oompers: Then that's a worthless line. A writer needs to choose his words carefully and deliberately (granted, we're talking about Lobdell here). Lobdell fails to properly establish Jason and Tim's history in New 52 universe. Because of that, the audience is forced to draw their own conclusions. A reader who is familiar with pre-Flashpoint Jason will assume that he's alluding to Battle for the Cowl. A reader who has only been reading RHATO will deduce that, based on Jason's comments about Dick in #1 and his flashback of attacking Bruce, that Jason also attacked Tim at some point. Lobdell needs to choose his words more carefully, as "wasn't exactly nice to you" sounds a lot worse than Jason not picking up Tim for soccer practice.

    Or you know, people will think of the time Jason sneak into the Titans towers and beat Tim up. And that is hardly Lobdell's fault, there's a TON of stuff we don't know how it happened on the N52 (Knightfall, the Killing Joke, all the boys tenure as Robin...) plus Lobdell keeps ellaborating on those issues every chance he has.

    Alfred isn't a trained vigilante running around the streets firing off guns on a regular basis. There's a reason why the Batfamily specifically trains in combat that doesn't utilize guns. That stuff in DOTF and JL came after the editorial decision to fold Jason back into the family, to use him in tie-ins. Even then, Lobdell's execution of that scene could have been much better than just handwaving Bruce's principles.

    We don't know for sure what kind of training the batfamily has on the N52 (Dick knows how to use a gun for starters) In fact, there's not even an example of Bruce disaproving the use of guns on the N52, while Death of the Family stablished that Bruce has entertained the idea of Killing the Joker but he doesn't goes through (until Endgame that is) because he's afraid of bringing something worse on Gotham. Oh and Bruce's dream sequence with Jason was on Batman's 15 while Bruce's scene with Jason was on RHATO 17, two months later. In any case Lobdell did a much better job that Morrison did when he used Jason as Wingman without giving a valid reason for that.

    There's a point when a character trait stops being a character trait, and just becomes a point of caricature from that character's own writer.

    You are aware that N52 Roy has always been written as one playing the role of a bufoon, right?

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    Aahz

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    @oompers: And the Batfamily worked before with guys that were willing to kill and were using lethal weapons, and tried to reform ex-teamates that became evil.

    And the decision that Jason is now a part of the Batfamily was probably not made by Lobdell alone, he just somehow had to write it. And by the time Jason hung around in the Batcave in RHatO, Morrsion had him allready used as part of Batman Inc. Before he just help in Court of Owls after Tim asked him (what was probably the solution to explain his appearance in the storyline), without any other interaction with the Batfamily.

    And im still would like to have examples that he is whiny.

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    flying_fish

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    I think people need to stop treating Scott Lobdell as the JRR Tolkien of Jason Todd.

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