@slapfish812: I wouldn't say he's less skilled because it was like that pre flashpoint. now he's been shown to go toe to toe with several people who couldn't have been easy to take down. for example Ra's Al Guhl and the untitled and if you've read rhath #0 you'd know that he ad a lot of potential even before he became robin according to Talia.

about the atletics you're right but almost no one's on Dick's level wgen it comes to that and that doesn't mean Jason doesn't know at least basic atletics probably even a lot more.

the intelligence again isn't true, I don't know how someone who isn't at least quite smart would know so many languages like portugese (which isn't an easy one to learn) and even though I don't know any other direct example I can't think of any for Dick either so you show me those first.

I would actually say they are kind of equals, not yet on Bruce's level but not all that far behind either.

I dpn't know enough about Kate to say anything about her but I'm fairly certain Jason would be able to defeat Tim and Damian when he's not exhausted like he was in b&r.

I don't know why you think about Jason like that except if you're only source would be batman eternal and then I would recomment you to read a bit more before judging.

Damian winning against Jason in B&R was complete nonsense, Damian got just one issue before a beating from Tim and Jason is definatly better than Tim. To win this fight Damain would have needed a few more tricks than just a crowbar.

And by the way Damian said at the beginning of this arc that he would beat every ex-Robin in something where he is the strongest and it was Jason that he attacked in an actuall fight.

@slapfish812: There was iirc only one fight between Dick and Jason that Dick won and that was in Battle for the Cowl. It was no easy victory, and Dick basically won by pissing him of so got sloppy. And i can't recall Jason ever shooting a gun whan figthing against Dick.

Kate Kane is ranked that high based on what? I fully admit from the jump that I have barely followed her whatsoever since her induction into the canon and have zero interest in her as a character, but I haven't seen or heard anything about her to imply she should be ranked that high. Based on my knowledge she had basic combat training at West Pointe and then trained further, under who knows how many teacher, when she travelled around the world. Dick Grayson I know was once able to recognize that she used multiple different styles. That's all well and good, but you can literally say the same things for every single member of the Bat Family: That they've received training in multiple styles of martial arts, minus Harper and Steph at the moment. Basically what i'm asking is what feats does she have to make you place her that far above Damian, Jason and the others? That's in turn also placing Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne a long way above the others as well. A gap of that magnitude honestly implies that Damian and anyone past him couldn't challenge the first three people in a fight whatsoever, which seems wrong.

I'd say the scale is Bruce>Dick>Jason>Tim>Damian>Barbara, and Harper and Steph are simply irrelevant at the moment due to an extreme lack of training, and i'm tempted to say that Damian would take Tim. I then can't place Kate logically since I again don't know any of her major feats (Whatever they may be)

Bruce is obviously at the top of the scale and always will be. That really just goes without saying. Both Jason and Dick then have times where they've fought with him and done well (Though Jason's as far as the New 52 goes has only been partially glimpsed in a flashback, but it ended with Bruce on the ground with a gun to his head) The timeline's still fuzzy, but there's the possibility that Dick and Jason have then fought eachother previously around 2-3 times, which if they were kept in line with the previous continuity would've ended with more wins for Dick than Jason. And the same can be said for Jason fighting Tim, with more wins for Jason than Tim. Since the reboot Jason's also had further training under the All Caste, with solid skills in swordsmanship especially being added. Though this also assumes that Dick doesn't have the swordsmanship training he had Pre-Flashpoint (And Damian at least should still retain his skill with the blade, seeing as he was still raised by the League. Damian might in fact have the best weapons training in terms of overall variety.) Though Dickin turn has his own Escrima Sticks which Jason has never been shown to use either. The point i'm making however is that they're both skilled, and then happen to have their own unique skills as well, so you could say both are less skilled than the other in certain areas. (Jason also has his firearms for example and Dick at the moment has the Hypnos implant)

Damian is below the others mostly due to a lack of experience and his size, yet he's leagues beyond where any of the others were at that age. I'm also assuming in terms of how he'd fair against Tim, as from the little i've seen the two of them don't seem to have moved at all since the reboot.

And while Jason is less athletic than Dick like I stated previously, I wouldn't say that any of the Robins are more or less intelligent to any extent that it really matters in terms of a fight. They're all quick on their feet, creative, and able to come up with plans on the fly. This is literally what they do. They're all highly intelligent individuals (And in terms of natural intelligence i'd actually say that Damian is probably the smartest)

But you should add that in most of this figths Jason didn't wan't to take down Dick, in UtRH he just wanted to get away and in the Outsiders and iirc Nightwing he just wanted to talk with Dick.

They are all probaly trained in lot of weapons that they are not using on panel. Dick for example is also e very good mask man (as shown in Grayson) even if he doesn't like to use fire arms, and Jason was for example using escrima sticks in his fight with Damian.

Since the other started all as Robin a much higher age in the new 52 (a change I don't like), it's no wonder that he is higher skilled than them at this age. But Tim was still able to take him in a fight (in Batman and Robin 10 iirc).

But to behonest I cant really take Damians skills in the new 52 serious. Some of his showings are completly over the top (like his win against Talia in his #0 issue).He seems to be overall even more skilled than Bruce and thats despite the fact that he is now articficcaly aged and technically at best 5 years old.

Dick is more acrobatic than Jason but I wouldn't be sure if he is more athletic. And Tim is probably more academic that Dick and Jason and physically a little bit weaker.

@aahz Yeah in those 3 instances he was just messing around for different reasons. Dick and Jason didn't even really fight in Under the Hood. Battle for the Cowl he was straight up trying to kill Dick as well as Tim, same with Dick and Damian in Batman and Robin.

Agreed. We'll probably never know just how skilled any of them are with every single weapon, but you can take a solid guess that they're each better than the others with what they choose to use most often, just due to simple experience. So Jason has firearms, Dick has the Escrima, etc.

Also agreed. Some of the ways Damian moves seem to be completely unnatural, even for a comic book, but that I honestly just chalk up to him being genetically enhanced anyways. That seems to be what the entire purpose for that plot thread was anyways, to make it plausible for a ten year old boy to consistently be taking on and defeating fully grown adults in the modern day DCU.

Already explained on the previous page why I place Dick as the most athletic. And Post-Flashpoint i'd also say that Tim is more athletic than Jason as well. Of the three Jason is just some random kid off the street, who when underwent years of martial arts training. The other two were actually taking part in high level athletic activity previously, making them more used to it. Dick Grayson from a fairly young age as he still grew up training to become an acrobat as his profession, a field that requires a level of skill, coordination, flexibility, and agility far above the norm. You then enhance that with the same types of training that Jason receives. Post-Flashpoint i'd rank Tim as the better athlete than Jason for the same reason. Bruce says it outright about the three at the start of the reboot.

"Dick was a classically trained athlete from a long line of acrobats. Jason let his rage and frustration fuel his physical training. Tim was different...Tim pushed himself because he wanted to be the best. The best gymnast."

With the explanation that he was then close to olympic level.

@nathaniel_christopher: yes, you said it yourself that tim wanted to be the best it's never said that he is actually the best. his phisique is however a lot better than it was pre flashpoint

Right, but it is said that he's close to olympic level and has been training as a gymnast for many years. Which as you point out is a vast improvement from Pre-Flashpoint, where he was somewhat lacking in the physical field when compared to the others.

@nathaniel_christopher: Jason was also said to be at the level of an olympic athlete, so I don't think there is such a big difference between them.

And I still don't think Jason was that random, in both continuities he was shown (or said) to be a good fighter even before his Robin training. And after so many years and the training he had since he became Robin, the initial lack of formal training shouldn't be such a big factor any more.

@Tim skills: In his original origin story he was also said to be nearly as good as a gymnast than Dick, it was later retconned that Tim had more problems with the physical training than Dick and Jason.

I'd assume after years of training under Batman, which is again different from Dick and Tim.

He's shown to be able to survive against random thugs on the street. That's little better than the average mook that Batman and his family take on all the time. Plus in terms of physical condition living on the street isn't going to allow a child/teen to be in the best of shape, once more compared to Dick and Tim who are in fields from the start where they actually HAVE to stay in good shape and have their entire lives.

As I also said on the previous page, EVERY single member of the Bat Family is an excellent athlete, as you would have to be to do what they do. But similar to how Tim Drake Pre-Flashpoint was better at computers than Dick Grayson, Dick and Tim would just be better athletes than Jason due to having actually been taking part in high level athletics for longer than him.

@slapfish812: If have no idea about the LA Clippers, but this 3 fights were not about Jason trying to to kill Dick or to proof that he is better than Dick. And all this fights ended actually in Jason favour since Dick didn't manage to bring him in.

The only real full out fights were happend in Batlle for the Cowl and Batman and Robin. And Jason was written completely out of character in this issues.

@nathaniel_christopher: true but in rhato #0 Jason's shown to be able to fight by duplicating moves he saw in movies, a way to punch Talia shows him and then that movement to expell the powers of the untittled also only shown and he does all of them right which I think means that he's a really fast learner even if he has less experience with in high level athletics.

Which i'd agree with. They all have different skills, which is what I was trying to point out before. You have Jason being able to duplicate that move, Dick running across moving trains before he ever even started training with Bruce, Damian learning over a hundred ways to kill somebody from the League, Tim was damn near a genius, etc. And then on top of their own unique skills they all have training from Batman as well.

@--essence--: That was rhato #25 and not #0, and unfortunately was this ability never used again. It's a little bit like Tims new gymnastic skill, that was also never mentioned outside of his origin stories.

@aahz: oops and yeah it's too bad but maybe we get to see some of the new dynamics of all the robins in batman & robin eternal

@--essence--: I don't have high hopes for that since it is written mostly by the same guys who wrote "Batman Eternal", where they didn't made any good use of Jason and I still think that he and other characters like Tim, Batwoman, el Gaucho and Luke Fox were only in the series because the writers had to use them and not because they wanted to, and so they ended up as support characters (for Barbara and Harper Row of all people) in pointless side plots or just got a cameo.

And when I look at the interviews about "Batman & Robin Eternal" I don't have the impression that it is different this time.

But I would be loved to be proven wrong and get a comic were they make Dick, Jason and Tim work as a team of roughly equal power full characters with unique skill sets.

New 52 jason is superior to dick, add the all-caste combos and it's easy to find the winner... but purely on skill, new 52, just h2h, it's jason in a close fight

some folks here just cling to the past a lot, pre-52 dick was better... new 52 we need to take some great drugs to say dick is still better... jason has MORE AND BETTER training than Dick, he uses his all-caste moves and dick is dead, sorry but the timeline has changed

Times have changed. I wish Dick was still the 2nd best in the Bat Family but Jason is way too skilled now.

I think it really depends on the writers and the series, Dick is much stronger in "Grayson" than he was in "Nightwing" and Jasons didn't had any impressive showings in the last time (and in Eternal he was really almost a joke).

That just sounds like wish fulfillment. There's nothing to suggest that Jason is anywhere as competent as Dick, considering that all of Dick's old history is, for all intents and purposes, still considered canon. Most writers that matter consider Dick as Batman's peer and equal, whereas Jason is essentially a subordinate to both. Jason's All-Caste stuff comes across as forgotten fanfiction that really has no impact on how he's portrayed going forward.

Not really, Teen Titans, Blüdhave, Outsiders thats all erased from canon as afaik.

Unfortunately many writers don't really have a good grip on Jasons Character (especially the guys who wrote Eternal). And Dick as "Batman's peer and equal" is imo also only a thing since "Grayson" (and doesn't say much about Jasons martial arts skills).

Teen Titans history is being restored via Titans Hunt. And the Bat writers have long dropped the five year timeline and have started referring to the past as "several years ago". Both Snyder's and Tomasi's works have portrayed Bruce as having a deep respect for Dick, well above the rest of the Batfamily. Jason's stuff in Red Hood and the Outlaws has been rendered inconsequential and irrelevant even by books in the same editorial group. For all intents and purposes, he's a Bat sidekick.

@rurgandy: I don't think that they will the Titans history with Titans Hunt, afaik they will reunite the new 52 versions of most of the old Titans, but they will not restore the history. And Dicks time as cop in Blüdhaven is also sofar not canon in the new 52.

And since Bruce had hardly any interaction with the rest of the Batfamily it's hard to say how he sees them and respect doesn't necessary equals martial arts skill. With Jasons pasts and methods it's no wonder that Bruce trust Dick more.

But there's no narrative reason for Jason to be some godly Mary Sue that some fans think he should be. Pre-New52, he was powerful, because he needed to be a credible threat who had a fighting chance against Batman or Nightwing. Now, he's just a Bat sidekick, and one that undeveloped compared to the others. Dick's role will always be as Batman's peer, and the "one thing he did right", so it's natural for writers to play up his skill. Jason's role will always be as a peer to Tim or Roy.

Under the Hood is still canon, and in the new 52 he had more martial arts training (and less training in other areas) than pre flashpoint, so why should he be suddenly weaker? And I don't think he should be able to stomp Dick in hand-to-hand combat but they should be on the same level.

Tim and Roy are definitely smarter than Dick in the new 52, so why shouldn't Jason be his equal in fighting? And Cass is/was a better fighter than Dick and was still more Tims peer than Dicks.

Under the Hood was nothing more than a brief flashback. Nothing in he does in his present day storyline requires him to be as capable as Batman or Nightwing. And his "additional training" adds no narrative value. He still just runs around with his guns out.

@rurgandy:It has the Narrative value of making him a relevant member of the Batfamily who could work as Dick's "Lancer", and not a secondrate Character. And Bringing back the All-Cast-Stuff would make him probably the family member that is best suited to fight supernatural threads what would give him a niche in the family.

Using him and Tim just "those two guys" makes them hardly appealing characters and is hardly a good idea if DC wants to sell comics with them as protagonist (the last Batfamily events were in my opinion a huge disservice for both characters).

And most Jason fans like him because of Under the Red Hood, I doub't that stories like "Battle for the Cowl", Morrisons "Batman and Robin" or "Batman Eternal" created any new fans for him.

@rurgandy: it´s CANON, wishfull thinking is saying the all caste stuff did not happened because "i talk with DC people twice a week"... agioan read both characters stories in the new 52 and jason is ABOVE grayson... if it's hard to take just don´t think about it, but canon is canon... books trump fan opinion

Did Jason now just defeat Cass in b&r eternal 2 because to me that doesn't seem realistic. Make no mistake I love Jason and everything but I always thought Cass would wipe the floor with him.

??? No. Their fight hasn't even started yet.

@nathaniel_christopher: She was on the ground with his gun to her head, to me that seems like they at least fought a bit.

She's kneeling, with no cuts, scrapes, or bruises to be seen, and Jason is pointing a gun at her. Seems to me more like he happened to see/spot her right as she got there, and therefore has his gun pointed at her, leaving things on a clear cliff hanger to be resolved next issue.

@nathaniel_christopher: Yeah, I guess you could be right but there's also some collateral damage around them, though maybe that could be explained by Cass's entrance or something, and you only see Cass's back so any damage to her front would be concealed but I guess Jason would sport some injuries too if they really fought so I suppose you're right in saying that they didn't fight yet.

More likely that she was fighting Orphan, and Jason interrupted.

@rurgandy: that's something I didn't even think about but yes that's an a lot more plausible explanation of what they're doing in a bar in full costume.

Cass probaly just smashed some how into the room and Jason had his gun out before she could do anything. And I wouldn't be surprised (but not very happy) if we see Cass dodging his bullets in the beginning of the next issue.

And I really doubt that they would Jason take her down off panel.

If this All-Caste training is still canon it wouldn't be impossible. It was for example shown that Jason is even blinded still a top level fighter. Cass on the other hand is (at least pre new 52) very dependent her body reading ability and therefore on seeing. He needs just a flash or smoke grenade (or a Blackout Bomb) and Cass would be in trouble.

@aahz: True and I guess we'll see if they fight next issue (not sure because Dick will probably tell Jason she isn't the assassin) but even if they don't fight each other we'll probably see enough of her fighting skills in the rest eternal but it would be cool if he took her down and I sincerely hope the all-caste is still canon because I really liked that.

This is an obvious Red Hood win, for people commenting otherwise, provide scans to back up what you're saying. It literally took me 30 mins to make a Red Hood appreciation post that showed way better feats for Hood post New 52. Here's a link to that thread. http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/red-hood-appreciation-post-1791487/. Obviously I think Pre New 52 Nightwing would wreck Jason, but considering every current feat, Dick doesn't stand a chance. Jason's feats are ridiculous in the New 52.

@admiralbuttz: lol Jason's had his ass handed to him by nearly everyone in the Batfamily. Damian stomped him without breaking a sweat. And Dick's fought and won against much tougher enemies (Midnighter, Lincoln March, Azrael, Mother who one-shotted Jason). Hell, Dick had to rescue Jason countless times from teenage assassins.

@oompers: Yet you've provided no scans? Obviously speaking from common sense of who could beat who, Jason stomps Tim and Damian. Writers for either one of these characters rather poorly make it seem like they're on his level when they aren't. If we were just considering current feats alone like I had stated before, Jason would literally wreck everyone in the bat family except Batman. That in of itself is even highly debatable considering New 52 Jason casually uses magic while Batman has nothing to do with it. His current feats are ridiculous and are at least on Bruce's level or more. And that's without exaggeration comparing both pre an New 52 feats.

Everyone in the Batfamily has fought magic. It's no big deal. From a common sense standpoint, Jason doesn't stand a chance against any of the Batfamily members who are better trained, more experienced, and smarter than him. And most of these "writers" you throw tantrums at are far better than Scott Lobdell.

Nearly dying to a random Talon:

Completely manhandled by Damian:

One-shotted by Mother, who is easily defeated by Dick:

Gets taken out by a mind-controlled Harper Row, then later needs Dick to save him from teenagers: http://imgur.com/a/m7vKH

The conclusion of his UTRH flashback (failing and needing to be rescued by Batman): http://imgur.com/WiavB7F

1. You're taking scans out of context to prove a ridiculous argument saying that Damian, someone who hasn't had nearly the training or experience can beat Todd. 2. It's far more likely in the comics where Damian has supposedly "won" that Jason wasn't actually trying to hurt him or the writers had some bias for Damian. 3. Anyone on comic vine could tell you common sense wise it goes Dick<Jason<Tim<Damian. Don't believe me?

Pre New 52

Damian gets demolished by Tim. What I like even more about this scan is how blatant it is that Tim isn't seriously trying to hurt Damian. Tim destroys him essentially without even trying.

Jason beats Tim multiple times. The obvious being that Jason is above Tim

Jason literally shoots Damian in this scan, if he was soo damn good, how come he always looses against the other Robins?

New 52.

Jason one-shots Lady Shiva.

Here's Nightwing getting decimated by Shiva in an earlier fight.

Here's Jason casually taking out a giant fucking monster. Note that Starfire and Roy were both having problems taking out these creatures.

Jason speed blitz 30+ armed guard before they can react.

Jason breaks out of Kara's hold several times. She goes out of her way to comment how this would be impossible for any normal human, he even clashes blades with her later. Granted I don't think she was going full strength but it's still extremely impressive.

Jason fights meta humans with ease.

The League of Assassins respects him. Jesus dude, each member makes it abundantly clear they don't think they'd be a match for him one on one.

Jason flips a 600 lbs woman like it's nothing. Again proving his strength boosts.

Oh yeah, and you post a scan with Talon cracking Hood's helmet acting like he was in serious danger of loosing that fight even though i'm not convinced of that at all. Hood could've killed Talon right here. He stalemates Mr. Freeze and Talon in one panel. It's far more likely that he let Talon stab his helmet because he wasn't concerned that Talon's knife could pierce it. Your scan even proves this. Hood wasn't concerned at all, he had some trouble with one Talon sure, but consider that Nightwing barely defeated a Talon one on one, and Hood didn't even really have to fight him.

Dick barely wins with severe injuries.

Do I need to keep going?The New 52 has been broken from the beginning and obviously if we're just going by feats alone, which we should. Damian doesn't have shit even close to Todd's level pre or post 52. Not only that considering all current feats, I really don't think it would be a hard pressed assumption to say Dick would lose to Jason. That's just my opinion, but consider all current feats of each character.

nightwing

@admiralbuttz: All of my scans are very much in context, and most of them come from books that are far better written than Lobdell's fanfiction. The truth is that your self-insert character isn't magical super fighter you wish he was, and he'll get his ass handed to him when things get tough. Most of your scans are actually out of context. Dick was heavily injured in his fight against Shiva, and Jason admits that he could never take Shiva in a one-on-one fight.

And here's Jason getting beaten soundly by a nameless Orphan: http://imgur.com/a/urn6e. He has to be rescued later by Midnighter.

Jason continuing to lose to Damian again and again:

Getting crushed against Bane without venom. Bane later gets taken out by Azrael.

Jason and Tim struggling against Azrael 2-on-1, while Dick handles him 1-on-1: http://imgur.com/a/eeK9j

And he admits he'll never be as good as Dick:

@oompers: Again, you post out of context scans with little to no evidence backing up what you're saying. So, i'll say this again. Post Damian or Dick feats that are even close to Jason's level, then we'll talk. Until then you've got nothing but shit posting that proves nothing. You comment how Dick was severely injured in his fight with Shiva, yet this shouldn't have been a deciding factor in the fight considering Dick has fought injured before. He wasn't even severely injured! No matter what fight you post between Jason and Damian, Jason wasn't trying to hurt him. What is soo hard to understand about this? I've posted numerous scans showing Damian getting destroyed by Tim pre New 52 and Tim getting destroyed by Jason pre New 52. It's really not that hard to put two and two together. I've posted better scans with better context to back them up

Use actual feats written by non-bias writers. You go out of your way to show scans with bad context and horrible writers to illustrate a poor argument.

Most of the scene admiralbuttz showed are not from Lobdell but from other writers like Tynion. And btw. if Lobdell who actually shows Jason struggeling to win in fights in fanfic, what are Grayson and Damians series?

The new 52 in general and and especially Batman and Robin Eternal is super inconsistent when it comes to power levels. You have for example Damian being beaten up by Tim in one issue and in the next he is suddenly able to taking down Jason.

Or Mother how gets her ass kicked by Harper Row and a few pages later she is able to one shot Jason, Tim and Damian.

You have Orphans that are to power full for Jason, Black Canary, Katana and Robobatman, but Spoiler can take down 3 of the simultaneously with a taser.

You have a Bane who gets on Venom his ass kicked by Batman and Killer Croc, but is without Venom to powerfull for Tim and Jason.

Or a Jason that hold his own in a fight against Cassandra Cain and has no problems to kill her. But is suddenly to slow to dodge Bane and refuses to use weapons against him.

Btw. even if I really hate Morrisons take on Jason, his version on how a fight between Damian and Jason looks like makes much more sense then the ones in "Batman and Robin" and "Robin War".

@aahz: I agree, a lot of feats between different characters here are inconsistent. But I feel you agree with me in saying that Jason is at least above Tim and Damian. And like I said, if we're considering all current feats, he's done ridiculous stuff as far as the New 52 is concerned

In my opinion (which is not based on actual feats or things that are explicitly said in the comics) Jason should be the best fighter of the Robins, better than Tim and Damian, and equal or slightly better than Dick, since that seems pretty much the most fitting role in the family for him. The other thing he should excel at is stealth, due to his past as thief and his assassins training, but that's also something the writes tend to ignore.

Feats from the comics are imo not a good measurement, who wins a fight and has often less to do with the characters but more with the plot or which characters the writers want to give a cool scene. And it also depends very much on the tone of a book. In something that is supposed to be a fun action adventure charters will win fights far easier and against more powerfull villains, than in something that is supposed darker or more street level. Damian does for example in his book stuff that is even above stuff Batman is doing.

Talons a great example for how much things depend on the writer. In most Tie Ins the main character was somehow able to take down his Talon on his own, but the Birds of Prey had enormous problems handling one of them as a team. Despite having with Black Canary and Katana two top fighters (with powers) on the team.