Red Hood and the Outlaws Annual #1

#1 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

WARNING THERE BE SPOILERS!!!

Jason and his crew have gotten their own annual!!!

This is a really big deal for a title, especially one as this. Relatively, Red Hood has been doing pretty ok in sales, and annuals usually go to high selling books. It feels as though DC was going down their line and slowly but surely moving their way to other titles that were selling, and it is finally RHTO's turn. Just in time too, because the next wave of annuals go back to the top selling books.

Here is where many people are worried; the first two issues of James Tynion's run on the Outlaws has drawn a lot of heat from the passionate fans. Frankly this deals with Jason's memory loss and lack of humor. The art has also been on the downside, which makes it harder to enjoy what was good in those issues. But we have an annual coming up, and a fill-in artist who doesn't look half bad.

What I think needs to be said about this series and James, is that I believe that we have entered a very awkward and troubling moment. I am going to say a few things that may get me in trouble, especially since I am a huge fan of the book and most of what Lobdell did. So here it goes.

WHAT NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR:

Scott Lobdell needed to leave the book. Honestly, after he got his gig on Superman, I felt as though he would have to drop one of his books, and the Outlaws seemed the least important to him. Nothing against him, but that is honestly how it feels. A lot of people rant and rave over the series, and though it is a unique book, it had some troubling points. Primarily, the ending of the Untitled arc, the ending of the Space arc, and the dreaded issue 16 of the Death of the Family tie in, where he basically set up Jason in this very emotional situation and didn't even bother to finish it off, leaving it to the stale Tim Drake and his book to finish off Jason's participation in the crossover. Scott left the series on a very high note, mind you, but the way this game works is how well the finish is. James came on in a very sensitive situation, Jason was apparently supposed to get his face burnt off or either lose his memory from Joker's attack, and then literally nothing happened. Jason would later have a reconciliation with Bruce, only later for Damian to die and the effects of his death transition through the other titles. With Lobdell's last issues in the bag, James was already starting an uphill battle, also dealing with the passionate hoodies who would attack at the first sign of trouble, art wise or if someone intruded on what Lobdell did.

WHAT JAMES IS DOING RIGHT:

James took a very unexpected direction by returning to the All-Caste. It is a very nice nod to Lobdell, that a lot of people are overlooking, and also verifies the importance of what Lobdell set up. He also brought back Essence, a character that was sort of discarded for a time. There is a lot to be told of her, and her true intentions, so that really draws people in.

Starfire's memory was a subject of controversy, and James seems to have a firm grasp on it and clarified it. He is also bringing back Roy's past, which is something that Lobdell lightly touched on, and is actually the main focal point of the annual.

Though some may not like it for warranted reasons, James has nonetheless created a new and interesting situation that will put the resolve of the Outlaws to the test, and even put their friendship in jeopardy. This is pure conflict that hasn't been explored before, and is very welcomed.

WHAT JAMES IS DOING WRONG:

Unlike other books when a new team is brought in to shake things up and make the stories and characters interesting again, when a somewhat cult classic or fan based title is tampered with, there will be blowback. Especially if you mess with the core of the title. I am not saying that James shouldn't be doing this, but this feels like a story that he thinks Lobdell wanted told. James does not need to answer to the passionate fans this book has. He needs to establish himself and create his own stories and adventures instead of tinkering with what was left to him. I appreciate his concern and interest in the past of these characters, but this is a story left a little further down the line. Just start off with a short arc, and then transition into this. This gives the reader time to adjust to James, as well as making them prepared for the heavy things to come. James jumped right in the deep end, and the deep end has sharks in it, ready to tear him apart at the sight of trouble.

Jason's memory is the huge problem. It is a nice idea, but creates problems with his involvement with the team. He is now the useless guy on the team, and will most likely appreciate his lot in life. James has to be very careful from this point on, especially with how he handles the memory thing, if he wants my readership for this title.

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THE ANNUAL:

The annual has been said to mainly feature Roy and his past of Green Arrow, something that Lobdell didn't bother to do and the GA Zero Issue failed at. Jason's memory will still be gone, though last issue I felt it was a hindrance, this coming issue seems like it will work to James' advantage.

We should some character interactions we haven't dealt with before, especially Ollie's, as well as some new characters such as Cheshire. There are a lot of things to look forward to, it just is left up to how James will treat it.

GIVE THE ARC A CHANCE:

Lobdell was heavily criticized in beginning of his run, scrutinized for the treatment of a character's origins, and dismissed as a bad writer. I don't believe any of those things, and I am damn sure James deserves a chance. Once the arc is complete, and you feel the same, then you will be entitled to that, but as of now, there is still a lot to be seen. I recommend reading Tynion's work in Batman and Talon, which have both been phenomenal.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM THE ANNUAL?

Is there anything specific you want to see?

Is Cheshire welcomed by the hoodies, and will this mean that Lian has a chance to exist?

Will you give this annual a chance?

Answer below and please be respectful to everyone's opinion.

#2 Edited by Teerack (7069 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree pretty much all of what you said, which is impressive considering the size of your post.

I'll keep reading RHATO for a little bit longer just to make sure the ship is sunk before I stop.

#3 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by thejman1990 (6 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

I disagree pretty much all of what you said, which is impressive considering the size of your post.

I'll keep reading RHATO for a little bit longer just to make sure the ship is sunk before I stop.

- Same here.

- Additionally, Tynion contradicted Lobdell on the subject of Kori's memories. Lobdell said that she didn't remember humans as anything more that sights and smells and that she was not defined by the men in her life. However, now Tynion says that Kori is an alien slut that lives a lie every day of her life because of the men in her life and that she is utterly defined by them. Nice contradiction, isn't it?

- Regardless, i'm going to read the annual and continue to read the series until Tynion is fired or Tynion drives it into the ground. Additionally, i believe that the latter is most likely to happen.

#5 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman1990: Lobdell never said that, Jason said that because that is what Kori told him. Lobdell hinted in interviews that Kori's memory was intact but that she chose to forget. This is what Tynion did. She doesn't live in the past, she lives for the here and now and is not held back by her past because she insisted to Roy that he didn't need to know because it was the past, issue 6 is till canon and meaningful. Also, I think you are pretty much proving my point by being biased against Tynion. Lobdell was hated so badly for what he did in the title, but now that a new guy is on who really doesn't need to continue what Lobdell did, he is being hated by the fans, that is a nice contradiction. James is actually taking what Lobdell created and making a story out of it. Everybody is hating on him now solely because he isn't Lobdell. I honestly believe that James is writing what Lobdell would have wanted. Scott set up the conflcit with Roy in issue 14, where there is a small inner dialogue saying that he might need some help. This could be the bounties on their head, as there are cameos for both Deathstroke and Hugo Strange in issue 16.

I honestly want to hear something besides that James is ruining the title. Give me some legitimate criticisms and stop thinking so close mindedly. Everything that Lobdell did is intact I don't know why everyone keeps saying that James ruined it. I also want to say that I don't think James is perfect, these past two issues were far from perfect and he definitely needs to step it up. issue 19 was ok, but I didn't care for issue 20. I am a fan of what Lobdell did, but also a fan of Tynion and am willing to at least give the guy an arc before I say he is ruining a series.

#6 Posted by daredevil21134 (12115 posts) - - Show Bio

I want a Jason Todd solo.I don't like New 52 Roy Harper.

#7 Posted by JohnDavison (4 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually only started reading because of Tynion, I absolutely love his Talon, Batman and Eighth Seal. And while I think his first two issues of Red Hood have been kinda weak, I enjoyed them. And having just read the annual, I loved that. I really don't understand why people have had such negative reactions to it, saying things like he's destroyed character development (when I'm 100% sure it's ridiculous to say that before the arc is over, so I always ignore people when they say that and move on to the next comment xD). Plus anyone who thinks Jason's memory is going to stay erased has never read comics or maybe any story before (seeing as the beginning is usually where a predicament like this occurs which the characters have to overcome). I'm keeping in mind that I haven't read the issues before James started writing it, but I think fans will change their minds when the arc is over.

#8 Edited by Saren (25900 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the issue that really sold me on Tynion as a RhatO writer. I enjoyed it a great deal.

Moderator
#9 Posted by tjs4759 (42 posts) - - Show Bio

I have mixed feelings about where this book is heading. I enjoyed Cheshire's involvement, and look forward to see where the whole "bounty" concept goes, especially with who we see on the last panel. Plus, Deathstroke is suppose to be making an appearance soon.

However, I'm not sold on the new direction for Jason. One of the reasons he was arguably my favorite Bat-character is because he was the anti-hero, the outcast of the family. He was willing to do what was necessary to get the job done. With the development in this issue, I don't see him continuing to do that.

BTW - 83 Kills? Jason has been doing work!

#10 Posted by God_Spawn (38106 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the issue that really sold me on Tynion as a RhatO writer. I enjoyed it a great deal.

Agreed. The issue was awesome.

"Stop being sexy and fight me, dammit!" made me lol.

Moderator
#11 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually only started reading because of Tynion, I absolutely love his Talon, Batman and Eighth Seal. And while I think his first two issues of Red Hood have been kinda weak, I enjoyed them. And having just read the annual, I loved that. I really don't understand why people have had such negative reactions to it, saying things like he's destroyed character development (when I'm 100% sure it's ridiculous to say that before the arc is over, so I always ignore people when they say that and move on to the next comment xD). Plus anyone who thinks Jason's memory is going to stay erased has never read comics or maybe any story before (seeing as the beginning is usually where a predicament like this occurs which the characters have to overcome). I'm keeping in mind that I haven't read the issues before James started writing it, but I think fans will change their minds when the arc is over.

You and I are going to get along great. I feel the exact same way. He isn't perfect but this was the best of his Red Hood by far. He is dong amazing things on Talon and Batman and hopefully he can find his niche on this title.

#12 Edited by redhood21 (815 posts) - - Show Bio

i have high hopes from tynion although i'd really like jason to get his memories back :/ ...i have a core few titles i read from the new 52 (Red Hood being my favorite) and the only one i dropped was deathstroke (during the liefield issues) then picked it back up after he left.

#13 Posted by Nightstar1 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@thejman1990: Lobdell never said that, Jason said that because that is what Kori told him. Lobdell hinted in interviews that Kori's memory was intact but that she chose to forget. This is what Tynion did. She doesn't live in the past, she lives for the here and now and is not held back by her past because she insisted to Roy that he didn't need to know because it was the past, issue 6 is till canon and meaningful. Also, I think you are pretty much proving my point by being biased against Tynion. Lobdell was hated so badly for what he did in the title, but now that a new guy is on who really doesn't need to continue what Lobdell did, he is being hated by the fans, that is a nice contradiction. James is actually taking what Lobdell created and making a story out of it. Everybody is hating on him now solely because he isn't Lobdell. I honestly believe that James is writing what Lobdell would have wanted. Scott set up the conflcit with Roy in issue 14, where there is a small inner dialogue saying that he might need some help. This could be the bounties on their head, as there are cameos for both Deathstroke and Hugo Strange in issue 16.

I honestly want to hear something besides that James is ruining the title. Give me some legitimate criticisms and stop thinking so close mindedly. Everything that Lobdell did is intact I don't know why everyone keeps saying that James ruined it. I also want to say that I don't think James is perfect, these past two issues were far from perfect and he definitely needs to step it up. issue 19 was ok, but I didn't care for issue 20. I am a fan of what Lobdell did, but also a fan of Tynion and am willing to at least give the guy an arc before I say he is ruining a series.

Not so. Lobdell said in early interviews that Kori's mind didn't work like earthlings. She knows people as sight and scent, blah blah blah...In the first issue, in her inner monologue, Kori said that she could barely tell Roy and Jason apart. Also, Kori's flashback in issue six shows her having happy memories AND STATING that she had good memories of Grayson, but didn't remember who he was. He was SEEN in her flashback, in her bed. Working together with Roy as a team. She was SMILING when she remembered this and was telling Jason about it. She said that when she saw him, she would know him. It wasn't written as something that she didn't want to happen or as something that would destroy her. AND why would somebody live on a deserted island and have a stash of EVERY superhero outfit that the guy who, if you remembered him would destroy you, in her possession. I just see this as a contradiction in writing, plain and simple.

#14 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@thejman1990: Lobdell never said that, Jason said that because that is what Kori told him. Lobdell hinted in interviews that Kori's memory was intact but that she chose to forget. This is what Tynion did. She doesn't live in the past, she lives for the here and now and is not held back by her past because she insisted to Roy that he didn't need to know because it was the past, issue 6 is till canon and meaningful. Also, I think you are pretty much proving my point by being biased against Tynion. Lobdell was hated so badly for what he did in the title, but now that a new guy is on who really doesn't need to continue what Lobdell did, he is being hated by the fans, that is a nice contradiction. James is actually taking what Lobdell created and making a story out of it. Everybody is hating on him now solely because he isn't Lobdell. I honestly believe that James is writing what Lobdell would have wanted. Scott set up the conflcit with Roy in issue 14, where there is a small inner dialogue saying that he might need some help. This could be the bounties on their head, as there are cameos for both Deathstroke and Hugo Strange in issue 16.

I honestly want to hear something besides that James is ruining the title. Give me some legitimate criticisms and stop thinking so close mindedly. Everything that Lobdell did is intact I don't know why everyone keeps saying that James ruined it. I also want to say that I don't think James is perfect, these past two issues were far from perfect and he definitely needs to step it up. issue 19 was ok, but I didn't care for issue 20. I am a fan of what Lobdell did, but also a fan of Tynion and am willing to at least give the guy an arc before I say he is ruining a series.

Not so. Lobdell said in early interviews that Kori's mind didn't work like earthlings. She knows people as sight and scent, blah blah blah...In the first issue, in her inner monologue, Kori said that she could barely tell Roy and Jason apart. Also, Kori's flashback in issue six shows her having happy memories AND STATING that she had good memories of Grayson, but didn't remember who he was. He was SEEN in her flashback, in her bed. Working together with Roy as a team. She was SMILING when she remembered this and was telling Jason about it. She said that when she saw him, she would know him. It wasn't written as something that she didn't want to happen or as something that would destroy her. AND why would somebody live on a deserted island and have a stash of EVERY superhero outfit that the guy who, if you remembered him would destroy you, in her possession. I just see this as a contradiction in writing, plain and simple.

Issue 4, she whispered out his name. The device used on Kori temporarily disabled her powers, but did no permanent damage. Notice I never said that her mind worked the same as humans, it doesn't, but that doesn't mean she is a goldfish. Her mind is complex and sights and sounds do have an impact on her, but she still remembers her past but chooses to forget because of the pain of that moment. She didn't want to live in the past, so it was easy for her to forget something that was painful to her. Why would she refuse to go with Jason in issue 17, right when Jason ran into Dick. She knew he was in there, and she didn't want to be reminded of that pain. It wasn't going to 'destroy' her, it was just simply a time in her life when things were good but the end result was something bad, due to them fighting. Issue 1, Lobdell was hinting that her memory was intact, because she slept with Roy, not out of boredom, but to get his mind of the subject of her past. Sex is different for her species, yes, but she knew full well what she was doing. Issue 6, she was mentioning the happy moments with Dick, but not the bad for a reason. We all knew something happened, because Dick has never mentioned her and Kori never said anything about what had happened. The whole point of issue 20 was bringing up what really happened between Dick and Kori. Yes, they had great times together, just like in pre-continuity, but just like in pre-continuity, something happened. Here, they obviously had a huge falling out, and everyone is bugging out because it shows that the two weren't perfect. Roy wasn't asking her about the good times, he was asking her about what happened between the two that Kori would want to forget. S'aru even said it, your mind is nothing like humans, it is extraordinary. How is this contradicting what Lobdell did? He said that there was more to it than a simple goldfish memory thing, and guess what the new writer is actually following it through.

#15 Edited by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to weigh in on the OP when I have a keyboard, heheh. But I definitely enjoyed the annual, Cheshire, and the potential for awesome that this whole contract situation is building towards.

However if the memory isn't back (or very clearly going to be back) by the end of this arc, I'm not sure I can stand for that.

#16 Edited by dngn4774 (3220 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@johndavison said:

I actually only started reading because of Tynion, I absolutely love his Talon, Batman and Eighth Seal. And while I think his first two issues of Red Hood have been kinda weak, I enjoyed them. And having just read the annual, I loved that. I really don't understand why people have had such negative reactions to it, saying things like he's destroyed character development (when I'm 100% sure it's ridiculous to say that before the arc is over, so I always ignore people when they say that and move on to the next comment xD). Plus anyone who thinks Jason's memory is going to stay erased has never read comics or maybe any story before (seeing as the beginning is usually where a predicament like this occurs which the characters have to overcome). I'm keeping in mind that I haven't read the issues before James started writing it, but I think fans will change their minds when the arc is over.

You and I are going to get along great. I feel the exact same way. He isn't perfect but this was the best of his Red Hood by far. He is dong amazing things on Talon and Batman and hopefully he can find his niche on this title.

This. Tynion is a great writer and everyone's giving him sh!t cause the book isn't awesome in the first 2 issues he's on, that's sickening. Tynion could have easily moved along without making any changes but RHATO fans would have still complained on all of Lobdell's mistakes that he would've been continuing. If you give him time to fix the memory wipe the issue is going to be a great book, the annual just gives me more of a reason to believe that.

Here's what I thought of the annual:

  • Roy and Kori are already being written and utilized better than when Lobdell had control of the book.
  • I liked how Roy's origins were explained in much finer detail. Ollie was cool too but the art didn't do him justice.
  • Cheshire was written beautifully. Plus I really liked her new teleportation power.
  • Jason's starting to get whiny but the plot makes it understandable.
  • The art is better but I still really miss the old art staff.
  • Not really a big fan of how Bronze Tiger is being portrayed. He seems to be too primal. I liked the martial artist in a suit better but I guess this makes more sense considering who his opponents are.
#17 Posted by TakeLuutzen (139 posts) - - Show Bio

But what about the art? I miss the art of Kenneth Rocafort! That is some next level drawing.
I'd picked up Superman when Lobdel took him with him..
The artist right now is not bad, but ordinary..

#18 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@takeluutzen: The book has been through a variety of artists since Rocafort left. I'd agree that his art is spectacular and missed, but I do find it odd how people keep harping on it, since he hasn't been on this book for almost a year.

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