Jason Todd for Secret Six

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#1 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

Just think of the possibilities: Bane chastizing Jason for being sad-sack, Catman and Deadshot good-naturedly ribbing him......,etc. : )
#2 Posted by dieguy (20 posts) - - Show Bio

There is already a thread about this exact same topic but yes I agree.

#3 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio

me too
#4 Posted by RedK (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

definatly

#5 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedK said:
"definatly "
#6 Posted by RedHoodJT (527 posts) - - Show Bio

See I would agree but I have a hard time agreeing. Jason could have a book series on his own. Whereas the rest in the "Secret Six" need one another as supporting characters to have a book about them. A book just with Bane would be too boring. Same for the others. In my opinion anyways. I'm not bashing any of them. I love all of them equally. Well Jason is my favorite DC character so he is above them. But the rest stand at the same spot.

#7 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
"See I would agree but I have a hard time agreeing. Jason could have a book series on his own. Whereas the rest in the "Secret Six" need one another as supporting characters to have a book about them. A book just with Bane would be too boring. Same for the others. In my opinion anyways. I'm not bashing any of them. I love all of them equally. Well Jason is my favorite DC character so he is above them. But the rest stand at the same spot. "
#8 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
"See I would agree but I have a hard time agreeing. Jason could have a book series on his own. Whereas the rest in the "Secret Six" need one another as supporting characters to have a book about them. A book just with Bane would be too boring. Same for the others. In my opinion anyways. I'm not bashing any of them. I love all of them equally. Well Jason is my favorite DC character so he is above them. But the rest stand at the same spot. "

Makes sense. But Jason would make he book even more interesting.
#9 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio

i agree 
#10 Edited by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

He should be on a new team of Outsiders with Connor Hawke, Offspring, Thunder, Ravager, and...Shift [ but a Shift that's actually Rex's kid from the JLE days]

#11 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

No to both. 
 
Jason Todd has no reason to join the Secret Six.  His personal code of ethics don't really put him in line with the Six anyway. 
 
The Outsiders wouldn't have Jason.  Plus, that team needs Geo-Force, Black Lighting or somebody to sell the book.  Connor could do it but not since Winnick destroyed him.
#12 Edited by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom said:

" No to both.  Jason Todd has no reason to join the Secret Six.  His personal code of ethics don't really put him in line with the Six anyway.  The Outsiders wouldn't have Jason.  Plus, that team needs Geo-Force, Black Lighting or somebody to sell the book.  Connor could do it but not since Winnick destroyed him.   

Geo-Force...or Black Lightning...to sell the book....really?  
 
They aren't doing a very good job now. 
 
To my mind, it's about finding a brand for the original plot of Generation Lost, which was 20 something heroes looking a place in the world. They aren't Teen Titans, they aren't JLA. They're Outsiders. Outsiders is a logical brand in need of a drastic, drastic revamp. And with Batman on Inc, his original team lays abandoned and ready for an event decimation that would allow them to rebuild anew at DC. To boot, most of the members would be the kids of former Outsiders, most on the outs with their  "dad".
#13 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't say they were but they're sure a bigger draw (especially under the Outsiders name) than Offspring and Thunder.
#14 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Tell that to Catman and Ragdoll. Things change.

#15 Edited by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:

"Tell that to Catman and Ragdoll. Things change. "


Catman and Ragdoll have a fanbase.  They didn't get their own book, either, until after they were well met in a miniseries (which also had Deathstroke and Deadshot, who already had a following).
 
Thunder is a former Outsider that nobody cares about and Offspring was a Teen Titan for five minutes (and only in a book that wasn't even Titans related) and is based on a character from a miniseries that wasn't well received.  Unlike Catwoman and Ragdoll, Offspring and Thunder don't currently bring in readers.  Connor Hawk and maybe Ravager are the only characters you mentioned that would.  Connor is currently without archery skills or memory (and thus his recognizable role as Green Arrow is a bit out of the question) and Ravager is stuck on the Teen Titans until we get a writer change.
#16 Edited by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Catman and Ragdoll had no fanbases of any consequence til Simone remade them.  Scandal Savage? Was the world screaming for Parademon?  At any point, half the secret six are terribly weak characters that thrive on good writing, and are defined by it. Jeanette, Cheshire, and Black Alice may be the reason the book's worked over the years but never because of some major fanbase. Deadshot and Bane, sure and Bane was a genius move but I think you can make the same argument with the bastard children of Batman, Green Arrow, and Deathstroke.
 
Red Hood, Connor Hawke's Green Arrow, and Ravager have fanbases. Connor  was doing the hero thing as soon as Ollie became a fugitive Robin Hood had there been a change since all this Lady of the Forest crap I'm unaware of?  I'm not arguing for anything other than the same treatment Secret Six got for a new team of Outsiders. You can do the team arises out of a company wide crossover spiel. You can do the 2 miniseries til a series stint.  
  
Connor's all semantics. With all the utter "there can be 2 of any namesake" junk we've done lately, labeling Connor a Green Arrow again for a book's success is not beneath DC. 
 
And to clarify you're also claiming Connor and Rose are assets and Jason is not. Or are you simply dismissing that because you believe it would never happen? Because while it may not have lasted forever, Black Adam was in the JSA, as was Magog. Maybe the new Outsiders need not be so moral as their previous incarnations...to you know, be outsiders.

#17 Edited by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Exactly.  But then came Villains United, which was only a miniseries, and they developed a fanbase.  Being written by Gail Simone helps.  Offspring and Thunder don't have that exposure because Thunder was written by Judd Winnick (who generally sucks) while being overshadowed by more popular characters like Nightwing, Starfire and Arsenal as well as newer, more interesting characters like Grace and Shift.  Offspring just showed up in a page or two every once in awhile in 52.  This isn't to say that they can't have a fanbase but they sure don't have one now and thus are not likely to be called upon to star in a book unless more popular characters are presented in key roles (like Nightwing in Outsiders or Deadshot in Secret Six).
 
Red Hood's fanbase isn't that great.  He's a Jericho, a crazy used for the sake of being crazy.  He was in one decent story like five years back.  Lots of people on comicvine seem to think he's awesome but I have my doubts when it comes to his ability to sell a book unless a great writer takes the character under his wing.  Ravager has pretty much only appeared in Teen Titans and besides the Titans Around the World and Titans East arcs about five years ago, most of her stories have been rather awful since they were written by Wallace, Henderson, Krul and McKeever.  Connor is pretty good, having his own book and several apperances in Morrison's popular JLA book but like I said, he's currently broken. 
 
Calling Connor Green Arrow because there's already a Green Arrow isn't a problem.  Calling Connor Green Arrow is a problem because he can't currently hit the broad side of a barn with a bow.  Now he's an amnesiac martial artist with a healing factor.  Blame Judd Winnick. 
 
I'm not claiming Jason isn't an asset (in terms of powers or sales) so much as he wouldn't want to be on the Outsiders.  He hates Batman and isn't going to join Batman's personal team.  Plus, most of the Outsiders (both current and your purposed team) don't look kindly on murderers.  Just as you aren't going to see Superman on the Teen Titans or Robin on the Fearsome Five, you aren't going to see Jason Todd on the Outsiders.  He just doesn't fit.
#18 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio

Um deadshot,catman and bane respect batman too much. 
There was an issue of secret six showing the reaction of bane and catman towards bruce's apparant death. 
and another written by ostrander showing floyd. 
if he as much as reveals his true agenda ,well lets just say its death in a family all over again. 
and they would have no problem figuring out his real motives since deadshot is both cunning and expereinced,scandal is intelligent,bane is a genius and catman is pretty clever as well.
#19 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason Todd rules
#20 Edited by RedHoodJT (527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom:  So let me get this straight you think that Judd Winick is a horrible writer, and you think that J.T. Krul is too? Wtf is wrong with you? Jason Todd was brought back into the lime light through Winick's Under the Hood story. Which is a damn good story. The Red Hood: The Lost Days mini was also a great story. The Teen Titans that is now written by J.T. Krul is the best Teen Titans story I've ever read. If Winick is so terrible at writing and what not why was his Under the Hood story made into a DC cartoon movie? How many other writers can say that theirs was made into a movie? I can think of two others. I'm going with you like Geoff Johns don't you?
 
And Jason does NOT hate Batman or anyone in the Bat Family. He has, since his return, tried to be accepted by them. Sure he has unorthodox methods of fighting crime but that doesn't change the fact that he is trying to win the affection of a group of people that, before his death, welcomed him with open arms. The only thing he hates about Batman is the fact that he hasn't killed the Joker yet for all the innocents he has killed and for killing him. 
 
And to the rest of you that think that Jason would be a good addition to the Secret Six books I totally see where you are coming from. I for one think that he should be put in an outsiders like team and be the leader of it to clean up or do the dirty work that Batman Inc can't and won't do.
#21 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Judd Winick is actually a decent writer who doesn't do any research on his characters which means that when he's not creating new awesome characters (Shift, Exiles Mimic, Drakon), he's writing awful stories about other people's characters that don't make sense, Jason Todd included.  This isn't anything new.
http://livingbetweenwednesdays.blogspot.com/2006/11/can-we-talk-about-something-else.html 
http://www.titanstower.com/monitor/?p=489 
 http://fanboywonder.blogspot.com/2008/04/character-assassination-winick.html 
I mean, have you read Titans or Green Arrow under Winick's pen?  Those books were freaking awful.
 
 
JT Krul wrote Rise of Arsenal.  Of course he's a horrible writer.  His Green Arrow is okay, though.  Nothing special but not as bad as Rise. 
 
 
Under the Hood was a travesty that should have never been greenlit.  It wasn't that bad of a story (besides retconning Hush into not making sense anymore) but like Denny O'Neil (a man with more talent in his right toe than Winick and Krul have combined) said, it was a sleazy move to bring Jason Todd back.  Under the Hood being made into a cartoon movie (which was better than the comic btw) doesn't make it a good story.  Superman/Batman: Public Enemies was turned into a movie and it still blows chunks, still has plotholes and mischaracterization and Loeb is still a lousy writer.
 
JT's Teen Titans is awful.  It has lame villains, plot holes and it overall just sucks.  I can understand why you would think it would be awesome, though, since Teen Titans hasn't had a decent writer in almost a decade.  Go read some of Johns' or Wolfman's Teen Titans, David's Young Justice or Grayson's Titans.  They blow the stuff Krul is currently producing out of the water. 
 
Jason has tried to kill Dick Grayson (on top of ruining his name by killing people while dressed as Nightwing) and has beaten Tim Drake into unconsciousness while telling him he didn't deserve to be Robin.  If you wanna say that he doesn't hate them?  Fine.  I won't argue the point.  That said, they aren't going to be teaming up because heroes don't team up with people who try to frame them for murder.
#22 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom said:
"
Judd Winick is actually a decent writer who doesn't do any research on his characters which means that when he's not creating new awesome characters (Shift, Exiles Mimic, Drakon), he's writing awful stories about other people's characters that don't make sense, Jason Todd included.  This isn't anything new.
http://livingbetweenwednesdays.blogspot.com/2006/11/can-we-talk-about-something-else.html 
http://www.titanstower.com/monitor/?p=489 
 http://fanboywonder.blogspot.com/2008/04/character-assassination-winick.html 
I mean, have you read Titans or Green Arrow under Winick's pen?  Those books were freaking awful.  JT Krul wrote Rise of Arsenal.  Of course he's a horrible writer.  His Green Arrow is okay, though.  Nothing special but not as bad as Rise.   Under the Hood was a travesty that should have never been greenlit.  It wasn't that bad of a story (besides retconning Hush into not making sense anymore) but like Denny O'Neil (a man with more talent in his right toe than Winick and Krul have combined) said, it was a sleazy move to bring Jason Todd back.  Under the Hood being made into a cartoon movie (which was better than the comic btw) doesn't make it a good story.  Superman/Batman: Public Enemies was turned into a movie and it still blows chunks, still has plotholes and mischaracterization and Loeb is still a lousy writer. JT's Teen Titans is awful.  It has lame villains, plot holes and it overall just sucks.  I can understand why you would think it would be awesome, though, since Teen Titans hasn't had a decent writer in almost a decade.  Go read some of Johns' or Wolfman's Teen Titans, David's Young Justice or Grayson's Titans.  They blow the stuff Krul is currently producing out of the water.  Jason has tried to kill Dick Grayson (on top of ruining his name by killing people while dressed as Nightwing) and has beaten Tim Drake into unconsciousness while telling him he didn't deserve to be Robin.  If you wanna say that he doesn't hate them?  Fine.  I won't argue the point.  That said, they aren't going to be teaming up because heroes don't team up with people who try to frame them for murder. "
This is a very, very well done post. I actually don't mind Winick, but the highlighted portion is so damn correct it also made me want to punch him in the face.
#23 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

1) Grow up.
2) Like current GL or not, Johns' Teen Titans beats the hell out of Krul's and his GL beats the hell out of Winick's.  His sales are higher, his reviews are better and people can mension his stories without rolling their eyes.  Johns only has one run that I'd put in my top 10 (his first Flash run) but he's still miles ahead of the junk your favorite writers produce.
#24 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
" @Zoom:  Some how I knew you would be one of the ones sucking the D of Johns. I can pick you poor saps out of a crowded room if you were all wearing costumes cuz its Halloween. Johns is a hack. Nuff said. His Blackest Night story was decent and I'll admit I enjoyed it but what he is doing now is just making a mockery of the GL universe. Milking this Rainbow Corps shit for all its worth and you poor poor idiots get soaked up in it. God its so lame. With that said I know you could say the same about me with Krul and Winick and that's fine with me. I'm willing to chalk it up to we like who we like and leave it at that. I still like Winick and Krul's writing and no one is gonna change my mind on that.   And its true he did try to sabotage both Tim and Dick. But it was after being rejected by them in the first place. Yea I would've done the same thing. Jason looked up to Dick. Then he got killed and felt abandoned and replaced by Tim. So after realizing they wouldn't let him join their cause he decided to turn against them. "

Hey man,Jason Todd haters are usually Judd Winick haters.And they love to try to bring you down
#25 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

You've got it backwards.  Winick haters are usually Jason Todd haters because they see a story by Denny freaking awesome O'Neil retconned away by Judd can't keep continuity straight to save his life Winick. 
 
#26 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT: One more post like the one I just deleted, and you're banned.
Moderator
#27 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom said:
"You've got it backwards.  Winick haters are usually Jason Todd haters because they see a story by Denny freaking awesome O'Neil retconned away by Judd can't keep continuity straight to save his life Winick.   "

Whatever you say dude.If you haye Jason you should stay wawy from his fourms.At leat thats what I would do
#28 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:
"@Zoom said:
"You've got it backwards.  Winick haters are usually Jason Todd haters because they see a story by Denny freaking awesome O'Neil retconned away by Judd can't keep continuity straight to save his life Winick.   "
Whatever you say dude.If you haye Jason you should stay wawy from his fourms.At leat thats what I would do "

Fortunately, you aren't me.
#29 Posted by daredevil21134 (10928 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zoom said:
"@daredevil21134 said:
"@Zoom said:
"You've got it backwards.  Winick haters are usually Jason Todd haters because they see a story by Denny freaking awesome O'Neil retconned away by Judd can't keep continuity straight to save his life Winick.   "
Whatever you say dude.If you haye Jason you should stay wawy from his fourms.At leat thats what I would do "
Fortunately, you aren't me. "

So you just like fucking with his fans,I get it

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