Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain

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#1 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

I know I've said multiple times that Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain are my favorite DC comics pairin'. But for all who doubt it, just read this...

http://m.fanfiction.net/s/3307577/1/Traitors_Bond

It's one of the best stories I've read with Jason bein' paired off with anyone. And furthers my belief that Jason and Cassandra would be one of the best DC comic couples EVER!!

#2 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

Gail Simone's original proposition for the Cassandra Batgirl was to have her rescue a sincerely faithful Christian preacher to Gotham's homeless population from a mugging and be converted by his sincere, strong faith in forgiveness and the teachings of the Bible. Taking up a new, white-colored costume, and devoting herself to the most vulnerable of Gotham's residents — the mentally ill, the homeless, runaways and immigrants — she would become known as the Angel of the Bat and, for the first time ever, would be genuinely happy.

#3 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: I tweeted her to see if we'd ever see that and the response was "unlikely, sorry!"

@Rabbit_May_Cry: And I don't like any pairings of the ex-Robins with Cass because I see them all as siblings.

#4 Edited by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@DeathpooltheT1000: I tweeted her to see if we'd ever see that and the response was "unlikely, sorry!"

@Rabbit_May_Cry: And I don't like any pairings of the ex-Robins with Cass because I see them all as siblings.

No good guys can be Religious, only Daredevil, it looks people cant understand tha fact that Atheist, Liberals and Gays could be bad guys and Religious, Conservatives and Heterosexuals could be good guys.

Because that how thing work in real life(Sarcasm).

#5 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@fodigg said:

@DeathpooltheT1000: I tweeted her to see if we'd ever see that and the response was "unlikely, sorry!"

@Rabbit_May_Cry: And I don't like any pairings of the ex-Robins with Cass because I see them all as siblings.

No good guys can be Religious, only Daredevil, it looks people cant understand tha fact that Atheist, Liberals and Gays could be bad guys and Religious, Conservatives and Heterosexuals could be good guys.

Because that how thing work in real life(Sarcasm).

Well, I think you'd be hard pressed to make the argument that gays are too often portrayed as the good guys in media. It's actually quite the opposite and the "yay gays" trend on TV right now is a pretty recent phenomenon. The "gay villain" has been a long-standing stereotype (see Depraved Homosexual, Sissy Villain, and Creepy Crossdresser), especially in hollywood. Used even more frequently than the "albino villain," and that's depressingly impressive.

However I do agree that there's a liberal bent in the comic book industry (despite what Alan Moore seems to think) and that all too often religious thought is talked down to or portrayed as deluded. And I say that as a liberal atheist.

I think I can count on one hand the authors that stand out as very conservative. Frank Miller, Bill Willingham, uh ... Chuck Dixon? Marv Wolfman maybe? As far as pro-religious authors/books, I think they've often seen as unappetizing in a "Christian rock" kind of way. For example, I've seen Seraph, Lance Briggs' new book, dismissed outright as "too preachy."

#6 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: Most of evil gay guys, look to be evil for the fact they were abused that anything else.

What is getting boring that most of bad guys arent bad, just people that was abused, also the reason why the Joker is awesome is the fact there is no way the abused thing ever happened, since the guy dont have a past.

What would the world do, without Frank Miller and Allan Moore crazyness?

2012 is the year they are going to die and that would cause the end of the world.

Is amazing that people get mad when some one talks about religion on his comic books, but when is about talking politic and try to covert you to a side, people look to have no problem, even when they try to convert you to liberal or conservative.

One of the main problem with movies, tv and comic books, is the fact people dont know politics dont work.

also all that crazy tolerance bullcrap, even when many times thing are more intolerant in other way.

Allan Moore says that only the last poster is real, the rest are conservative religious rigth wing propaganda to branwash the kids.

Later he sends his Pokemons to kill me.

#7 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Most of evil gay guys, look to be evil for the fact they were abused that anything else.

That's the explanation for some of them, except that doesn't change the trend that you have gay villain after gay villain and that "gayness" becomes a villainous trait, like a black hat. It also has the negative implication that being gay is the result of abuse, which is incorrect and offensive.

What is getting boring that most of bad guys arent bad, just people that was abused, also the reason why the Joker is awesome is the fact there is no way the abused thing ever happened, since the guy dont have a past.

I think realistic motivations can add depth and complexity to a book. I think more nuanced villains—sympathetic villains even—can be very interesting (although sometimes this can lead to fans inappropriately cheering for the villain or claiming that the villain is the real hero). However I don't claim that the traditional cackling villains are bad by any means! I think fiction needs variety in villains so writers would do well to alternate.

I'm not sure we're getting exclusively one or the other however. There's still a lot of out-and-out villains in comics. If you find these villains so forgettable, however, then I think that explains right there why authors feel the need to try and round out villains' characters a little more.

Is amazing that people get mad when some one talks about religion on his comic books, but when is about talking politic and try to covert you to a side, people look to have no problem, even when they try to convert you to liberal or conservative.

Well, I view superhero stories as a variant of "sci-fi," and I'm a big proponent of using science fiction to explore various philosophical and political perspectives. However, this can be done well or this can be done as mere masturbatory propaganda. I'd put forward Superman: Red Son as a good example of the former and Holy Terror as the latter (which Miller even proclaims as "propaganda" proudly).

One of the main problem with movies, tv and comic books, is the fact people dont know politics dont work.

Hmm. See, and as a liberal that's setting off my "conservative meme" radar. "The government doesn't work, so let's slash the government! See, the government is useless in it's slashed form, so let's slash it again! No, don't go out and vote, because the government is useless and voting is pointless and also we almost always do better when voting levels are down!" I know you're not from the States and I'm not sure if it's the same dynamic for Mexican politics, but that certainly seems to be a big slogan of conservatism up here.

Government is a tool, and like any tool it can be good or bad. Often it's both at the same time in different ways. These general claims that "politics doesn't work" or "government is bad" are just an attempt to get people to opt out and let someone else make their decisions for them.

also all that crazy tolerance bullcrap, even when many times thing are more intolerant in other way.

What? How so? You mean because they don't tolerate bigotry that's being intolerant? That's not how it works.

#8 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:people say you have to be tolerant to some thing, but fail at notice that work in everything, many people that have problems with religious people and say is becuase they are intolerant, what is bizarre to me, since i usually tolerate everybody, until they decide to pick it on me.

I am pretty intolerant with durg user and alcohol user, but i control myself .

I belive goverment works, politics is just the idea that the goverment, needs help from people that most of the time dont know what are they doing.

Goverment works, since the universe hates chaos and likes control, the problem with goverment is that is not as natural as it should be, also that people dont like the idea of living with other people and being too selfish to even notice, that some time people have to do the thing that helps the most.

Character need a past, a background but is getting boring that, most of them look to have a generic background.

The Riddler used to have this origin that explain he was so common and normal that he haves a need to be notice, sure it happens to be becuase of his parents, but still made him less generic.

Many characters look to have the origin, my daddy punch me in the face and that is why i decide to use a suit.

#9 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@fodigg:people say you have to be tolerant to some thing, but fail at notice that work in everything, many people that have problems with religious people and say is becuase they are intolerant, what is bizarre to me, since i usually tolerate everybody, until they decide to pick it on me.

I am pretty intolerant with durg user and alcohol user, but i control myself .

I would hardly say "religiousness" is being targeted. It's everywhere. However, I don't like the idea that you're setting up religion as the opposite of human rights. You can be religious and still be tolerant toward minorities. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I belive goverment works, politics is just the idea that the goverment, needs help from people that most of the time dont know what are they doing.
Goverment works, since the universe hates chaos and likes control, the problem with goverment is that is not as natural as it should be, also that people dont like the idea of living with other people and being too selfish to even notice, that some time people have to do the thing that helps the most.

So you're basically saying, yes, you'd prefer people stay at home and not vote and that those whose "business" it is to run the government to rule unquestioned? I might be exaggerating your position a bit here but that certainly sounds to me like a form of fascism.

Character need a past, a background but is getting boring that, most of them look to have a generic background.
The Riddler used to have this origin that explain he was so common and normal that he haves a need to be notice, sure it happens to be becuase of his parents, but still made him less generic.
Many characters look to have the origin, my daddy punch me in the face and that is why i decide to use a suit.

Criminals come out of violent homes quite often. The Riddler did as well. If you can see how the Riddler's backstory can take that concept and make it original I'm sure you can see how other characters could do the same. I do agree, however, that variety is a good thing.

#10 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: Most of the times i belive people dont know what they want, also the fact most of people vote for the wrong reasons and dont care about what is going to happen next.

Many people people belives that religions is like a bad thing, i still dont understand why people have problem with religion.

Also i dont want to keep talking about it, this was about Jason Todd and Casandra Cain.

#11 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: I was just about to ask what any of that has to do with Jason and Cassandra? For the most part, I would've liked to see Cassandra go down that Angel of the Bat road. Because that's is all the more reason for her to want to help Jason. Thus causin' the start of their relationship...with doubt that it may never last long because of their beliefs.

#12 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@DeathpooltheT1000: I was just about to ask what any of that has to do with Jason and Cassandra? For the most part, I would've liked to see Cassandra go down that Angel of the Bat road. Because that's is all the more reason for her to want to help Jason. Thus causin' the start of their relationship...with doubt that it may never last long because of their beliefs.

If i remember well Jason Todd is actually Catholic, also in flashpoint he was a priest.

To be honest, Jason need redemption for himself and without a help, also not all paths to redemption are not violent.

Also i find hard to belive he would let himself get any help from a memeber of the Batfamily.

#13 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the problem with the Angel of the Bat idea is that the basic premise goes against established characterization for Cass.

So the basic idea is that Cass saves a minister who has been beaten badly and she strikes out against his attackers but the minister asks her to stop. The minister forgives his attackers and Cass doesn't understand why, which sets her on the road to conversion. But Cass completely understands forgiveness. There were several Batgirl stories that were all about redemption. Heck, redemption is Cassandra Cain's life. Cass was already doing much of what Gail described without any religious inspiration.

If they were to have Cass go through a religious conversion, it would make more sense to have it result from losing her faith in Batman or the Bat symbol and drifting back to a directionless life.

#14 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@fodigg: Most of the times i belive people dont know what they want, also the fact most of people vote for the wrong reasons and dont care about what is going to happen next.

Even if I take that as a given, the answer to voter apathy is not "don't vote."

Many people people belives that religions is like a bad thing, i still dont understand why people have problem with religion.

I don't have a problem with religion, but I do have a problem with some forms of religious activism that promote intolerance (e.g., anti-gay) and ignorance (e.g, anti-science). And with the general erosion of the separation of church and state, which is intended to protect both institutions and is worrying.

But general religious thought? No, I have no problem with someone being religious. One can be an atheist--can actively promote secular/skeptic thought even--without being anti-religion. I can't speak for anyone else, however.

Also i dont want to keep talking about it, this was about Jason Todd and Casandra Cain.

Okay, that's fair, but I feel compelled to remind you that you brought these general topics up in the first place. :)

@KingofMadCows said:

I think the problem with the Angel of the Bat idea is that the basic premise goes against established characterization for Cass.

So the basic idea is that Cass saves a minister who has been beaten badly and she strikes out against his attackers but the minister asks her to stop. The minister forgives his attackers and Cass doesn't understand why, which sets her on the road to conversion. But Cass completely understands forgiveness. There were several Batgirl stories that were all about redemption. Heck, redemption is Cassandra Cain's life. Cass was already doing much of what Gail described without any religious inspiration.

If they were to have Cass go through a religious conversion, it would make more sense to have it result from losing her faith in Batman or the Bat symbol and drifting back to a directionless life.

I think that's a valid point, but you also have to keep in mind when this proposal was penned and that it never went through a formal process. Cass has gone through a lot since then, including the whole "master of the league of assassins and murderer" thing. Her redemption arc after that horrible misstep in direction covered a lot of the ground that this proposal would have. But you certainly make a good case for why the arc is no longer applicable, or at least 'as applicable,' as it would have been.

---

As for Jason's redemption arc, I actually hope that the direction he's going--distancing himself from Bruce even though he wears the bat on his chest--continues. That as he drops some of his joy from that time (e.g., unloading his happiest memory with Bruce) so too go his feelings of betrayal and grief. That letting go of all of it can lead to some closure and growth.

As for Cass, hey man, any way they can confirm her in the new 52. Even if they reboot her back to square one and somebody--Bruce, Barbara, Jason, anyone--finds a mute half-Asian assassin girl wandering the streets of Gotham next issue, I'd be happy.

#15 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: I don't think the proposal was ever applicable. Cass sacrificed her life to save two assassins in the second to last issue of her run of Batgirl. It wouldn't have made any sense for Gail's proposed arc to take place after that. Since the whole turning evil thing was ill conceived and not well thought out, the arc wouldn't have worked there either since they never gave a good reason for why she turned evil. After Cass turned good again, she was basically back to her old self, more or less, so there would be no reason to have that arc either.

While Gail Simone certainly knows more about Cassandra Cain than Beechan, like the fact that Cass is illiterate, I don't think she understands Cass very well.

#16 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually DC cant notice that at this point, could make Jason go to redemption and Cassandra into a hell hole.

Making thing working for Jason, even getting back at the Batfamily and Cassandra the evil member, that could be funny.

#17 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows: Even if Cass has shown mercy, I think that's different from feeling truly redeemed and fulfilled, which was the core of Gail's proposal. That she was already on the path did not, in my opinion, preclude what Gail was proposing at that time going forward. Also, what I find most compelling about Gail's proposal, however, was how it centers on someone who struggles to read finding peace in a book, and at that time she was still at a place where that made sense. After they made her a villain and gave her a magically huge and villainous vocabulary, that didn't work anymore.

#18 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: But Cass has done much more than just show mercy. She has repeated shown a deeply held belief in redemption. She honestly believes that bad people can become good. There were several stories that centered on that belief. She tried to help Mad Dog, who was basically an animal who only knew how to kill. She sacrificed her life to protect two assassins.

Sure the premise of what Gail proposed sounds interesting but that path should not begin with such a big inconsistency. The fact is that Cass would not be surprised by someone showing forgiveness when she herself holds no ill will against the people who have tried to kill her and has tried to help redeem some very bad people in the past. Heck, she's practically forgiven her father before the One Year Later disaster.

Also, I never understood why they didn't try to teach her sign language as a bridge to teaching her reading and writing.

#19 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

If you think about it, so far, Robin's have been with Batgirls in the past. Grayson/Barbra...Grayson/Helena...and Tim/Stephanie. So what would be so bad about Jason and Cassandra? They ARE the deadliest of the groups...as in they're the most likely to kill.

@fodigg: I totally agree with you about Cassandra gettin' into the new DCnU in any way...'cause I know I'm not the only person that misses her. But I just love the entire Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain couple. There are so many possibilities that can bring them together...and so many ways that they would stay together. I love the new road that Jason is goin' on, tryin' to show that he is just as capable as the rest of the Bat-Family. And tryin' to distance himself from them to gain some closure on what happened to him. But Cassandra isn't part of that problem, as he's never met her before. So there is absolutely no way that Jason would have a problem bein' around Cassandra...(not sayin' you said that). I just feel that their personalities, wants, and goals are both common and different enough to keep the both of them interested in each other for a long goin' time. And would help make their relationship one of the best in the DCU/DCnU.

@Everyone: Why do people keep sayin' that Jason needs a road to redemption? In order to achieve redemption, you need to try to redeem yourself. But what does Jason need to redeem himself for?...Nothin'!! Sure he kills, but he only kills those who would've killed many. That, to me is a hero. The wimpy way Bruce and the rest of the Bat-Family try to be heros only causes more problems for others down the road. Most of the time Bruce would stop someone from killin' 18 people, and put them in jail...only for them to break free, and kill 50 people. By not killin' the person to begin with, Bruce just got 32 MORE people killed for stupidity of a moral code.

Jason saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family makin' him the better hero, so he has nothin' to redeem himself for. Certainly not for the puss tight-wearers that feel he's just a thug murderer.

#20 Posted by entropy_aegis (15456 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

If you think about it, so far, Robin's have been with Batgirls in the past. Grayson/Barbra...Grayson/Helena...and Tim/Stephanie. So what would be so bad about Jason and Cassandra? They ARE the deadliest of the groups...as in they're the most likely to kill.

@fodigg: I totally agree with you about Cassandra gettin' into the new DCnU in any way...'cause I know I'm not the only person that misses her. But I just love the entire Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain couple. There are so many possibilities that can bring them together...and so many ways that they would stay together. I love the new road that Jason is goin' on, tryin' to show that he is just as capable as the rest of the Bat-Family. And tryin' to distance himself from them to gain some closure on what happened to him. But Cassandra isn't part of that problem, as he's never met her before. So there is absolutely no way that Jason would have a problem bein' around Cassandra...(not sayin' you said that). I just feel that their personalities, wants, and goals are both common and different enough to keep the both of them interested in each other for a long goin' time. And would help make their relationship one of the best in the DCU/DCnU.

@Everyone: Why do people keep sayin' that Jason needs a road to redemption? In order to achieve redemption, you need to try to redeem yourself. But what does Jason need to redeem himself for?...Nothin'!! Sure he kills, but he only kills those who would've killed many. That, to me is a hero. The wimpy way Bruce and the rest of the Bat-Family try to be heros only causes more problems for others down the road. Most of the time Bruce would stop someone from killin' 18 people, and put them in jail...only for them to break free, and kill 50 people. By not killin' the person to begin with, Bruce just got 32 MORE people killed for stupidity of a moral code.

Jason saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family makin' him the better hero, so he has nothin' to redeem himself for. Certainly not for the puss tight-wearers that feel he's just a thug murderer.

Jason planted bombs on a railway track, hero my A$$.Cassandra does'nt kill what part of that is so difficult to understand?why do you think her fans complained about her treatment at Beechen's hands?

Who has Jason saved directly? for whom has he been a source of inspiration apart from Scarlet(LOL),I have seen villains inspire people to do good more so than Jason and that's sad IMO.

#21 Posted by Shotgun (900 posts) - - Show Bio

This fanfiction is beautiful. It would've worked so well pre-52. Sadly, it wouldn't work out with the reboot as Jason doesn't want Bruce's approval, he's left Gotham, is now much more self-reliant/confident and Cassie, my favorite batgirl, is stuck in limbo.

#22 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

If you think about it, so far, Robin's have been with Batgirls in the past. Grayson/Barbra...Grayson/Helena...and Tim/Stephanie. So what would be so bad about Jason and Cassandra? They ARE the deadliest of the groups...as in they're the most likely to kill.

@fodigg: I totally agree with you about Cassandra gettin' into the new DCnU in any way...'cause I know I'm not the only person that misses her. But I just love the entire Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain couple. There are so many possibilities that can bring them together...and so many ways that they would stay together. I love the new road that Jason is goin' on, tryin' to show that he is just as capable as the rest of the Bat-Family. And tryin' to distance himself from them to gain some closure on what happened to him. But Cassandra isn't part of that problem, as he's never met her before. So there is absolutely no way that Jason would have a problem bein' around Cassandra...(not sayin' you said that). I just feel that their personalities, wants, and goals are both common and different enough to keep the both of them interested in each other for a long goin' time. And would help make their relationship one of the best in the DCU/DCnU.

@Everyone: Why do people keep sayin' that Jason needs a road to redemption? In order to achieve redemption, you need to try to redeem yourself. But what does Jason need to redeem himself for?...Nothin'!! Sure he kills, but he only kills those who would've killed many. That, to me is a hero. The wimpy way Bruce and the rest of the Bat-Family try to be heros only causes more problems for others down the road. Most of the time Bruce would stop someone from killin' 18 people, and put them in jail...only for them to break free, and kill 50 people. By not killin' the person to begin with, Bruce just got 32 MORE people killed for stupidity of a moral code.

Jason saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family makin' him the better hero, so he has nothin' to redeem himself for. Certainly not for the puss tight-wearers that feel he's just a thug murderer.

Jason planted bombs on a railway track, hero my A$$.Cassandra does'nt kill what part of that is so difficult to understand?why do you think her fans complained about her treatment at Beechen's hands?

Who has Jason saved directly? for whom has he been a source of inspiration apart from Scarlet(LOL),I have seen villains inspire people to do good more so than Jason and that's sad IMO.

I didn't say Cassandra kills, now did I? Look at yourself...missquotin' me. I said She's more likely to kill, as in if someone were to fight Barbra, Stephanie, and/or Cassandra...which one is more LIKELY to kill them?...Cassandra!! Makin' her the Batgirl most likely to kill.

And you still didn't take anything any from Jason bein' the better hero because he saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family. Hell, bein' a vigilante is against the law anyway. So to inspire more people to be like them...is to inspire more people to break the law. Which only makes Jason look even more like the better hero. Because Jason stops criminals permanently, saves more lives, and keeps more people from breakin' the law than the rest of the Bat-Family does.

So what if he kills...he has nothin' to redeem himself for. He's a better hero...IMO.

#23 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry: Cassandra is not more likely to kill than Stephanie or Barbara. She's more likely to use physical force but she's not more likely to kill.

As for Jason, his method is not more effective than Batman's because of what Gordon mentioned at the end of Batman Begins, escalation. The harder Jason tries to put criminals down, the harder the criminals will strike back. While there may be a limit to how far things can go in the real world, there are no limits in a comic book universe. Criminals in comic books can gain access to weapons that can destroy entire cities. Heck, when criminal organizations get desperate enough, they'll be able to get the backing of galaxy conquering aliens. Jason may eventually be able to put down the small time drug dealers and gangs but in the end he'll be facing criminals armed with Apokalyptic technology with an army of demons and war mechs at their disposal.

#24 Posted by daredevil21134 (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: Cassandra is not more likely to kill than Stephanie or Barbara. She's more likely to use physical force but she's not more likely to kill.

As for Jason, his method is not more effective than Batman's because of what Gordon mentioned at the end of Batman Begins, escalation. The harder Jason tries to put criminals down, the harder the criminals will strike back. While there may be a limit to how far things can go in the real world, there are no limits in a comic book universe. Criminals in comic books can gain access to weapons that can destroy entire cities. Heck, when criminal organizations get desperate enough, they'll be able to get the backing of galaxy conquering aliens. Jason may eventually be able to put down the small time drug dealers and gangs but by in the end he'll be facing criminals armed with Apokalyptic technology with an army of demons and war mechs at their disposal.

Well said

#25 Posted by entropy_aegis (15456 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

If you think about it, so far, Robin's have been with Batgirls in the past. Grayson/Barbra...Grayson/Helena...and Tim/Stephanie. So what would be so bad about Jason and Cassandra? They ARE the deadliest of the groups...as in they're the most likely to kill.

@fodigg: I totally agree with you about Cassandra gettin' into the new DCnU in any way...'cause I know I'm not the only person that misses her. But I just love the entire Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain couple. There are so many possibilities that can bring them together...and so many ways that they would stay together. I love the new road that Jason is goin' on, tryin' to show that he is just as capable as the rest of the Bat-Family. And tryin' to distance himself from them to gain some closure on what happened to him. But Cassandra isn't part of that problem, as he's never met her before. So there is absolutely no way that Jason would have a problem bein' around Cassandra...(not sayin' you said that). I just feel that their personalities, wants, and goals are both common and different enough to keep the both of them interested in each other for a long goin' time. And would help make their relationship one of the best in the DCU/DCnU.

@Everyone: Why do people keep sayin' that Jason needs a road to redemption? In order to achieve redemption, you need to try to redeem yourself. But what does Jason need to redeem himself for?...Nothin'!! Sure he kills, but he only kills those who would've killed many. That, to me is a hero. The wimpy way Bruce and the rest of the Bat-Family try to be heros only causes more problems for others down the road. Most of the time Bruce would stop someone from killin' 18 people, and put them in jail...only for them to break free, and kill 50 people. By not killin' the person to begin with, Bruce just got 32 MORE people killed for stupidity of a moral code.

Jason saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family makin' him the better hero, so he has nothin' to redeem himself for. Certainly not for the puss tight-wearers that feel he's just a thug murderer.

Jason planted bombs on a railway track, hero my A$$.Cassandra does'nt kill what part of that is so difficult to understand?why do you think her fans complained about her treatment at Beechen's hands?

Who has Jason saved directly? for whom has he been a source of inspiration apart from Scarlet(LOL),I have seen villains inspire people to do good more so than Jason and that's sad IMO.

I didn't say Cassandra kills, now did I? Look at yourself...missquotin' me. I said She's more likely to kill, as in if someone were to fight Barbra, Stephanie, and/or Cassandra...which one is more LIKELY to kill them?...Cassandra!! Makin' her the Batgirl most likely to kill.

And you still didn't take anything any from Jason bein' the better hero because he saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family. Hell, bein' a vigilante is against the law anyway. So to inspire more people to be like them...is to inspire more people to break the law. Which only makes Jason look even more like the better hero. Because Jason stops criminals permanently, saves more lives, and keeps more people from breakin' the law than the rest of the Bat-Family does.

So what if he kills...he has nothin' to redeem himself for. He's a better hero...IMO.

Never misquoted you,Cassandra is no more likely to kill than Tim.Infact I'd say Steph and Babs are actually more likely to kill(desperation,accident etc) Cass is unlikely to be ever put in such a situation.

Whose lives has Jason saved?he has killed random canon fodder,incase you did'nt notice those guys are endless in the world of fiction.You kill them or toss them in to prison,it makes no difference.

#26 Posted by daredevil21134 (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

#27 Posted by entropy_aegis (15456 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

#28 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

It should be noted that after the revamp we're uncertain exactly what Todd did during his villainous run. We don't know how violent, how noble, or how vicious he was until they confirm it in the new 52. Personally, I think that's a good thing. Whatever they settle on, at least it will be consistent, unlike how he was treated after his return.

#29 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry: That sound like if you say, that war on terror solves thing, all those criminals have families, friends and people that care and loves them, if you go around killing like if you were nuts, you would create more villains and peope would get more violent, because they see violence like the only way out.

Jason need redemption becuase he is making things worst and is hurting himself, even if he dont wanted to notice it.

#30 Edited by ComicStooge (13420 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd like to see nothing more then Cassandra Cain cave Jason's head in with her fist... Also, Jason Todd was adopted by Bruce, yeah? Well, it's illegal to have relations with your adopted siblings.

#31 Posted by DeadJester (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComicStooge said:

I'd like to see nothing more then Cassandra Cain cave Jason's head in with her fist... Also, Jason Todd was adopted by Bruce, yeah? Well, it's illegal to have relations with your adopted siblings.

ok. im sorry to nitpick at this, but considering all of the laws they break while being vigilantes, i doubt that THAT law would stop them should they choose to pursue it. and idk where youre from, but in the US, it is not a national or blanket law. some states actually allow it just as if they were two people with no relation, adopted or otherwise. and i can see where people might find it weird if they were actually raised together, but they have never actually met to my knowledge so its not really much of a brother-sister relationship even if technically are relatives by law. but thats just my observation. id like to see them hint at it like neither are in disguise and meet on the street and you can tell they are attracted. they could even date that way and find out who the other is while both meet chasing the same bad guy. good drama for jason to get pissed for a little while when he first finds out even if she didnt know. could be the first true test of any relationship that may arise of the two meeting. but theyd have to stand each other long enough to get their stories out which i find very difficult to believe. maybe one could save the other and realize or find out who they are while nursing them back to health. not much action, but could lead toa great storyline eventually...

#32 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeadJester said:

@ComicStooge said:

ok. im sorry to nitpick at this, but consid

I'd like to see nothing more then Cassandra Cain cave Jason's head in with her fist... Also, Jason Todd was adopted by Bruce, yeah? Well, it's illegal to have relations with your adopted siblings.

ering all of the laws they break while being vigilantes, i doubt that THAT law would stop them should they choose to pursue it. and idk where youre from, but in the US, it is not a national or blanket law. some states actually allow it just as if they were two people with no relation, adopted or otherwise. and i can see where people might find it weird if they were actually raised together, but they have never actually met to my knowledge so its not really much of a brother-sister relationship even if technically are relatives by law. but thats just my observation. id like to see them hint at it like neither are in disguise and meet on the street and you can tell they are attracted. they could even date that way and find out who the other is while both meet chasing the same bad guy. good drama for jason to get pissed for a little while when he first finds out even if she didnt know. could be the first true test of any relationship that may arise of the two meeting. but theyd have to stand each other long enough to get their stories out which i find very difficult to believe. maybe one could save the other and realize or find out who they are while nursing them back to health. not much action, but could lead toa great storyline eventually...

Some people cant just understand a joke!!!!

#33 Posted by DeadJester (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: i posted mine because ive seen people post comments like its illegal, its gross, theyre related, etc. i realize he was being sarcastic, or at least seemed to me to be, but ive seen it enough to have a slight annoyance with those arguments. but thats just me, sorry if it upset you? but i kinda liked the idea of those two and as i posted before, it could work. the only other current character i could see him with is ravager. now if they write a new one for him....

#34 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

For the love of god...Cassandra was NEVER adopted by Bruce!! He SAID that he would adopt her...but "died" before he could. Then when he came back...he STILL didn't do it because to Bruce, it's more important to start a gang of Batman, than to uphold a promise.

Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain are NOT related in ANY way. A broken promise does NOT count.

#35 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

For the love of god...Cassandra was NEVER adopted by Bruce!! He SAID that he would adopt her...but "died" before he could. Then when he came back...he STILL didn't do it because to Bruce, it's more important to start a gang of Batman, than to uphold a promise.

Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain are NOT related in ANY way. A broken promise does NOT count.

Again, some people cant understand a joke!!!!

#36 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

For the love of god...Cassandra was NEVER adopted by Bruce!! He SAID that he would adopt her...but "died" before he could. Then when he came back...he STILL didn't do it because to Bruce, it's more important to start a gang of Batman, than to uphold a promise.

Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain are NOT related in ANY way. A broken promise does NOT count.

Again, some people cant understand a joke!!!!

Well if it was a joke...it SUCKED.

#37 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome. 
#38 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

The whole adoption thing was a pretty stupid idea. Cassandra has never been involved in Bruce Wayne's life. She has only ever known Batman. She has never shown any interest in Bruce's life outside of Batman. It was just such lazy writing. Instead of developing a real relationship between Cass and Bruce, they just pulled a quick and easy emotionally manipulative stunt.

#39 Posted by daredevil21134 (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome.

You mean your Trolls

#40 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (11468 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

For the love of god...Cassandra was NEVER adopted by Bruce!! He SAID that he would adopt her...but "died" before he could. Then when he came back...he STILL didn't do it because to Bruce, it's more important to start a gang of Batman, than to uphold a promise.

Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain are NOT related in ANY way. A broken promise does NOT count.

Again, some people cant understand a joke!!!!

Well if it was a joke...it SUCKED.

That what you get in a wolrd where people belive South Park and Modern Family are funny.

#41 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

For the love of god...Cassandra was NEVER adopted by Bruce!! He SAID that he would adopt her...but "died" before he could. Then when he came back...he STILL didn't do it because to Bruce, it's more important to start a gang of Batman, than to uphold a promise.

Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain are NOT related in ANY way. A broken promise does NOT count.

Again, some people cant understand a joke!!!!

Well if it was a joke...it SUCKED.

That what you get in a wolrd where people belive South Park and Modern Family are funny.

That's because...THEY ARE.

#42 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome.

You mean your Trolls

No, we're not. We have valid points every time we post. Just because we're right and we disagree with you, doesn't make us trolls. 
#43 Posted by DeadJester (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: actually where i could see the troll part coming in is that you guys are known to be jason todd haters and yet you HAVE to comment on every Jason Todd thread it seems. I'm not a fan of batman really so I don't comment on his threads unless they have to do with Jason Todd. That, not meant to offend, but is an act of trolling.

#44 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@DeadJester: Looking at the top 7-8 threads on the Jason board, I commented in two of them. Hardly seems like EVERY thread. 
#45 Posted by daredevil21134 (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome.

You mean your Trolls

No, we're not. We have valid points every time we post. Just because we're right and we disagree with you, doesn't make us trolls.

You guys come here just to trash the character.You never say anything positive about him its the same thing all the time.At least with you

#46 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome.

You mean your Trolls

No, we're not. We have valid points every time we post. Just because we're right and we disagree with you, doesn't make us trolls.

You guys come here just to trash the character.You never say anything positive about him its the same thing all the time.At least with you

Except that that's not the case. I've said multiple times that I liked Morrison's Jason, and that my main gripe is with Judd Winick's handling of the character. 
#47 Posted by entropy_aegis (15456 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome.

You mean your Trolls

No, we're not. We have valid points every time we post. Just because we're right and we disagree with you, doesn't make us trolls.

You guys come here just to trash the character.You never say anything positive about him its the same thing all the time.At least with you

Jason's blood group is positive.

#48 Posted by daredevil21134 (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome.

You mean your Trolls

No, we're not. We have valid points every time we post. Just because we're right and we disagree with you, doesn't make us trolls.

You guys come here just to trash the character.You never say anything positive about him its the same thing all the time.At least with you

Except that that's not the case. I've said multiple times that I liked Morrison's Jason, and that my main gripe is with Judd Winick's handling of the character.

Whatever.There is not much to like about Morrison Jason, he wrote him for 3 issues but if you coming on Jason Todd forum makes you sleep better by thrashing him about the same crap repeatedly then go ahead.I actually like you as a user but your starting to sound like a broken record.Anyways i'm ending this little argument now

#49 Posted by daredevil21134 (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry: You gotta love Entropy he's one of the biggest Jason Todd haters along with FadeToBlackbolt.Lol don't trip

GREATNESS.

Yup, we're awesome.

You mean your Trolls

No, we're not. We have valid points every time we post. Just because we're right and we disagree with you, doesn't make us trolls.

You guys come here just to trash the character.You never say anything positive about him its the same thing all the time.At least with you

Jason's blood group is positive.

Was that supposed to be funny?

#50 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

If you think about it, so far, Robin's have been with Batgirls in the past. Grayson/Barbra...Grayson/Helena...and Tim/Stephanie. So what would be so bad about Jason and Cassandra? They ARE the deadliest of the groups...as in they're the most likely to kill.

@fodigg: I totally agree with you about Cassandra gettin' into the new DCnU in any way...'cause I know I'm not the only person that misses her. But I just love the entire Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain couple. There are so many possibilities that can bring them together...and so many ways that they would stay together. I love the new road that Jason is goin' on, tryin' to show that he is just as capable as the rest of the Bat-Family. And tryin' to distance himself from them to gain some closure on what happened to him. But Cassandra isn't part of that problem, as he's never met her before. So there is absolutely no way that Jason would have a problem bein' around Cassandra...(not sayin' you said that). I just feel that their personalities, wants, and goals are both common and different enough to keep the both of them interested in each other for a long goin' time. And would help make their relationship one of the best in the DCU/DCnU.

@Everyone: Why do people keep sayin' that Jason needs a road to redemption? In order to achieve redemption, you need to try to redeem yourself. But what does Jason need to redeem himself for?...Nothin'!! Sure he kills, but he only kills those who would've killed many. That, to me is a hero. The wimpy way Bruce and the rest of the Bat-Family try to be heros only causes more problems for others down the road. Most of the time Bruce would stop someone from killin' 18 people, and put them in jail...only for them to break free, and kill 50 people. By not killin' the person to begin with, Bruce just got 32 MORE people killed for stupidity of a moral code.

Jason saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family makin' him the better hero, so he has nothin' to redeem himself for. Certainly not for the puss tight-wearers that feel he's just a thug murderer.

Jason planted bombs on a railway track, hero my A$$.Cassandra does'nt kill what part of that is so difficult to understand?why do you think her fans complained about her treatment at Beechen's hands?

Who has Jason saved directly? for whom has he been a source of inspiration apart from Scarlet(LOL),I have seen villains inspire people to do good more so than Jason and that's sad IMO.

I didn't say Cassandra kills, now did I? Look at yourself...missquotin' me. I said She's more likely to kill, as in if someone were to fight Barbra, Stephanie, and/or Cassandra...which one is more LIKELY to kill them?...Cassandra!! Makin' her the Batgirl most likely to kill.

And you still didn't take anything any from Jason bein' the better hero because he saves more lives than the rest of the Bat-Family. Hell, bein' a vigilante is against the law anyway. So to inspire more people to be like them...is to inspire more people to break the law. Which only makes Jason look even more like the better hero. Because Jason stops criminals permanently, saves more lives, and keeps more people from breakin' the law than the rest of the Bat-Family does.

So what if he kills...he has nothin' to redeem himself for. He's a better hero...IMO.

Never misquoted you,Cassandra is no more likely to kill than Tim.Infact I'd say Steph and Babs are actually more likely to kill(desperation,accident etc) Cass is unlikely to be ever put in such a situation.

Whose lives has Jason saved?he has killed random canon fodder,incase you did'nt notice those guys are endless in the world of fiction.You kill them or toss them in to prison,it makes no difference.

There was no reply to this. What a shame, I was interested in seeing where it was going. 
 
Saying that Jason is a better hero and has saved more lives than the rest of the Bat Family is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this site.

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