'Failure' of a Robin... Why?

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#1 Posted by Meinos Kaen (39 posts) - - Show Bio

I take a little rant of opportunity here.  I've been a fan of Jason Todd since his resurecction, which led me to document myself on him, and recently, I noticed something... What the hell is with the decades-long 'failed recless disobedient Robin' thing? Did any writer after his death bother to read A death in the family or any comic featuring him? OR ANY COMIC FEATURING DICK AS ROBIN?! Literal quote from the boy wonder himself: 'I made a career out of disobeying orders.' It's like they all focus on Jason dieing and translate: dieing on duty=not good enough. How the hell is that fair? Superman died. That means he's not good enough?

It's like everyone forgets three little facts: 1. Jason didn't run in head first to attack the Joker, he sneaked in to warn his BIOLOGICAL MOTHER HE HAD NEVER SEEN AND JUST SAW FOR THE FIRST TIME of danger; 2. His OWN MOTHER sold him out to the Joker, leading him purposely into a trap; 3. In the end, he still tried to save the person who had sold him out, shielding her with her own body, symbolized by the fact that she survived him a few minutes.

So resuming, he died trying to warn his mother of a mortal danger, who led him into a trap and still he tried to save them both and shielded her with his own body. But he's a failure because he died. Hmmm... guess Donna Troy, Aqualad, Aquaman, Batman, Superman, Maxima, Tedd Kord, Hal Jordan, Green Arrow...

That's probably what I love about Winick's stories and take on the character. He focuses on the fact that Jason was angry and had a mean streak, and that I can understand, it's comprehensible and it's what makes him fascinating in the first place, but he's always put an emphasis on the fact that he's been trained by the Batman himself. Even when he was Robin, he was good. Now that he's back from the dead, he's even better.

#2 Posted by Jayso4201 (595 posts) - - Show Bio

Great Post. I agree to an extent, while Jason Todd has never been one of my favorite characters he's also been an important one. Its been a long time since I've read A Death in the Family, but I believe Bruce told him to stay put and they would go get his mother when he got there.  Jason didn't do that, the thing is when he was Robin he didn't follow orders and eventually got himself killed for it. I'm not sitting here saying Dick and Tim didn't do similar things, but not to the extent that Jason did. Fact of the matter is the fans didn't like him when he was Robin or he's still be here, and that dislike has carried over into his adult life. It wasn't like anybody told Supes not to fight Doomsday or Bats to not find out what was going on in FC, they were grown super-heroes not sidekicks, and it would have been irresponsible for them not to do their jobs.
#3 Posted by theincrediblezero (100 posts) - - Show Bio

But it really is DC and fans who don't like Todd that give him the bad "reckless and disobedient" rap.  I don't think Bruce could ever think him reckless for going in to warn his mother. If Bruce could have prevented his mother's death, he absolutely would, no matter who told him. In GK arc about Jason, he breaks down in tears and gives the most honest explanation for his death. that Bruce had allowed Jason to hope for his mother. For instance, there's one issue of Detective (I think, but it might be Batman) where on the anniversary of Todd's death, Joker has a little girl kidnapped, and she actually makes it out alive.  Joker's explains that Batman never dares to hope hostages are alive, and that with this he will never be able to be certain they're already dead.  It really was Bruce's fault, not only for not keeping a close enough eye on him (really, who let's their adopted kid make it onto a freaking plane? Especially when you're the GODDAMN BATMAN) but for also allowing him to hope in Africa instead of looking for his mother himself and sending Jason home.

#4 Posted by Jayso4201 (595 posts) - - Show Bio

True story.
#5 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio


well I think the problem is in the fact that Jasons story exists for the formation of Bruces character! hes just not important his death was used to take bruce to whole new level. I dont think Todd was a failure at all In fact I have always felt that Jason should have killed joker in cold blood and basically allowed bruce to know that he was the failure for never killing the clown.

 

I have often thought of a story where jason Kills off in assination style all the bat villans and he then in turns basically ends batman for there is no need for Bruce.

 

I like jason hes really on that line of bad guy and a good guy in a way that punisher is not Punisher is punisher he kills villans thats it nothing more nothing less. Todd is much more complex he kills villans but is almost a villan him self but then can side with heroes if he chooses hes a total loose cannon more so than anyother character I can think of

#6 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

It really amounts to the heavy handed stuff that came with A Death In The Family. There are instances, though I don't know I'd call them good examples of his disobeying orders meant to keep him safe. He jumps the gun in a drug lab raid and Nightwing backs him up in their first meeting, tackles Scarecrow alone when he was told only to track him, and goes to the showdown between Batman and Felipe Garzonas' father, when the drug dealer wanted revenge against Robin over the death of his son, after it being forbidden. It wasn't until ADITF that they started all the "he dove into those thugs like someone looking to die" crap and  him spouting the "all life's a game" & "near-misses don't count" schtick.


I suppose you could count him letting his emotions get to him over the death of his father, and how he went after Two-Face half-cocked but I never really faulted him for that one.



#7 Posted by theincrediblezero (100 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with Den. I went through all 20 issues of Post-Crisis Jason, and the only time a hated him was the whole "Life's a game" moment. He just came off like an asshole. But it really was Starlin at the core of that. He publicly declared his hatred for the Boy Wonder and wanted him dead. He didn't let that get to him in Cult (which is actually really awesome), but when time came of him to put Robin back into the Batman series, he just couldn't get over his despising of the character. Go back and read Ten Nights, which got Starlin his job as Batman writer. Robin has hardly any lines. I would rather have waited for a new writer to come around and put Jason back in. But instead, we got DitF, which got Starlin fired. Honestly, he's a very talented writer, but I hate most of his stuff simply because he's a hitman for the companies and characters they don't like.

#8 Posted by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason Todd IS the man. One of the main reasons why he was killed surprisingly wasn't because people DIDN'T like him , but because people wanted to see a death. They felt that the story couldn't end well UNLESS it ended with somethin' BIG. Most of the people who talk about Jason's death always say that they wouldn't have cared if it were a story based around Dick, Tim, or even Stephanie...they just wanted it to end in a harsh way that scarred Bruce.

What people really don't ever think about is that even back when his death was put out for a poll...thousands of people voted, but the poll for him to die only won by 70 somthin' votes. So he wasn't ever disliked as mouch as people think he was...he was just one of those wrong story...wrong time type of things.

As of ME personally, I've NEVER looked at Jason as a failure. He's the only person in the Batman family who understands that...

.................."You can't just beat people up, and expect them to change their ways. Sometimes you HAVE to kill them.".......................

Look at all of the villains that Batman has...do you think that crime in Gotham would still be goin' if Bruce actually DID kill these people? Some people like the Joker just want to cause destruction, so what do you gain by lettin' them live? He'll never change, he'll just keep killin', so why NOT kill him? But the biggest question to ask is...If you think Jason is a failure, and he constantly kick the shit out of Tim's ass...What does that make Tim?

#9 Posted by FortressoftheMoon (678 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not saying that he is a failure but I can understand the arguement.


 

 


 

.

#10 Edited by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio
@FortressoftheMoon said:
"

I'm not saying that he is a failure but I can understand the arguement.


 


 

.

"

Ahhh...that's good old fashion child abuse.
#11 Posted by FortressoftheMoon (678 posts) - - Show Bio

@Darcstorm:  So true my friend but it still filed and listed under Robin Fail.
#12 Posted by georgethecat (65 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Posted by katanalauncher (937 posts) - - Show Bio

It's the 90's, comics have to be dark.

#14 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

You know, but there's something to "All Life's A Game" because, and this is something they don't really touch in Batman, is that ego would probably make some of these folks have an attitude like they're invincible. And it's an attitude most certainly the youngins should have, until they get beaten with a baseball bat by Twoface, or crowbarred or crippled by the Joker. They should be so used to kicking ass that when reality crashes down, it crashes down hard. I didn't mind "All life's a game". I liked the bravado of "Gonna do what I was trained to do. Gonna kick some tail!". Not that gel-ed with the past issues, but I liked it. 


And it plays into thing an evolution on some level. That at some point when they nobody can kick your ass, you almost do go looking for it. Or if they wanted to take it to depressed boy wonder place, first you're taking your rage out on people, and pretty soon you're looking for them to end your pain. But that's if they'd gone there in depth and in a well told manner.  Had Jason had more than 3 pages of inner dialogue in the entire run but they didn't really bother.
#15 Posted by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand the whole "Failure of a Robin" thing either. There are just some people who don't like him...(but instead like Tim which I believe your character conception is FLAWED)...so they say that he was a failure of a Robin. Some people even believe that his anger is the reason that he was a failed Robin. But then there are the ones that say that he was a failure because he was reckless, didn't listen, and had uncontrollable anger problems...which I disagree with because those are the characteristics that separate him from the other Robin's, and help make him the awesomeness that he is.

#16 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12583 posts) - - Show Bio

he was a horrible robin but not a bad person or a bad character.

#17 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarcStorm:
I had a feeling you'd bring up Tim.I agree that the whole vote system was bogus.As for ending crime in Gotham,kill Joker and you'd get Flamingo.Jason has experienced both and he'll tell you who's worse.
#18 Posted by daredevil21134 (10931 posts) - - Show Bio

He would say Joker@entropy_aegis said:

" @DarcStorm: I had a feeling you'd bring up Tim.I agree that the whole vote system was bogus.As for ending crime in Gotham,kill Joker and you'd get Flamingo.Jason has experienced both and he'll tell you who's worse. "
#19 Edited by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: How'd you know I'd say somethin' about Tim? Anywho, If killin' the Joker would bring on Flamingo...then I'd go for it. The less villains you leave alive, the more hero's you'd have to help you with the remainin' villains.

@daredevil21134 said:
" He would say Joker
Jea. 'cause one of them just TRIED to kill him...the other actually DID.

#20 Posted by daredevil21134 (10931 posts) - - Show Bio

Last Time I checked Jason crushed Flamingo.Flamingo is not even close the Joker.Not to mention Flamingo got Jason when he was completely off guard

#21 Edited by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134: That's what I was sayin'. Joker KILLED Jason...Flamingo just tried to.
#22 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:
"Last Time I checked Jason crushed Flamingo.Flamingo is not even close the Joker.Not to mention Flamingo got Jason when he was completely off guard "

He got his ass kicked,Dick was the one who distracted him long enough for Jason to do something,and Flamingo escaped .
#23 Posted by daredevil21134 (10931 posts) - - Show Bio

Comparing Flamingo to the Joker is a JOKE,I rather deal with Flamingo instead of the Joker any day
#24 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134:
No Joker is good in scheming,Flamingo would tear him apart in a fist fight.
#25 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarcStorm:
Tim and you have some history together.
#26 Posted by daredevil21134 (10931 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:
" @daredevil21134: No Joker is good in scheming,Flamingo would tear him apart in a fist fight. "
Of course he would but I still rather deal with Flamingo then the Joker all around
#27 Posted by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually...Killin' Flamingo wouldn't be that hard now that Jason knows about him. Flamingo had researched Jason before their fight, while Jason knew nothin' of Flamingo beforehand. Joker on the other hand WANTS to die. He wants a hero, any hero (mostly Batman) to kill him. So by killin' Joker he still ruins their life, which is the BIGGEST punchline for him. But Jason wouldn't have that problem, so killin' both of these men wouldn't prove difficult for Jason at all.

#28 Edited by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Flamingo was an assassin that was brought in merely because Jason went after organized crime-organized, even if it was Hurt. It was your basic retelling of the Society coming in in UTH. The Dark Knight showed the difference between someone like Flamingo and the Joker in the same scenario, what happens when the mob asks them to solve a vigilante problem. Flamingo kills a problem and moves on. Joker will kill babies for a laugh.
Joker's a genocide, a mini Hitler. No comparison.

Flamingo is nothing but warner bros cartoon metaphor villain for the vigilante who kills. Drop him off a cliff, he comes back.

#29 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarcStorm:
You don't get it,Someone will replace Joker.Flamingo is just an example.Maybe we'll get a Joker who knows martial arts.
#30 Posted by daredevil21134 (10931 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodsDen said:
" Flamingo was an assassin that was brought in merely because Jason went after organized crime-organized, even if it was Hurt. It was your basic retelling of the Society coming in in UTH. The Dark Knight showed the difference between someone like Flamingo and the Joker in the same scenario, what happens when the mob asks them to solve a vigilante problem. Flamingo kills a problem and moves on. Joker will kill babies for a laugh. Joker's a genocide, a mini Hitler. No comparison. Flamingo is nothing but warner bros cartoon metaphor villain for the vigilante who kills. Drop him off a cliff, he comes back. "
Yes the Joker is far worse
#31 Posted by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:
" @DarcStorm: Tim and you have some history together. "
Jea, he blows, and I hate him...but HOW did you know that? Also, Joker doesn't scheme...he's just great at strategisin' on an impulse. He creates a possibility out of the most unuseful things, which makes him as great, and dangerous as he is.
#32 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarcStorm said:
" @entropy_aegis said:
" @DarcStorm: Tim and you have some history together. "
Jea, he blows, and I hate him...but HOW did you know that? Also, Joker doesn't scheme...he's just great at strategisin' on an impulse. He creates a possibility out of the most unuseful things, which makes him as great, and dangerous as he is. "

Easy,you never hide your hate for Tim.That's Morrison's Joker you're referring to.Winick's Joker  whom Jason has faced twice and dropped with ease is just a pansy in comparision.
#33 Edited by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

" @DarcStorm said:

" @entropy_aegis said:

" @DarcStorm: Tim and you have some history together. "
Jea, he blows, and I hate him...but HOW did you know that? Also, Joker doesn't scheme...he's just great at strategisin' on an impulse. He creates a possibility out of the most unuseful things, which makes him as great, and dangerous as he is. "
Easy,you never hide your hate for Tim.That's Morrison's Joker you're referring to.Winick's Joker  whom Jason has faced twice and dropped with ease is just a pansy in comparision. "
What's NOT to hate about Tim "Bitch-Made" Drake? But that's because Jason KNOWS all about Joker now. Jason had just met Flamingo when he was attacked by him. He knew nothin' about him, and was fightin' him off of what he learned about him in their fight. In the end he beat him (doesn't matter how...he DID). It's only a matter of time that Jason learns everything about Flamingo now, so it would get easier for Jason to beat Flamingo in every of their next encounters . Then he'll be doin' the same to Flamingo that he does to Joker.
#34 Posted by Meinos Kaen (39 posts) - - Show Bio

Uuuuuhm, maybe I will get flames for this... But what the hell makes the Joker so dangerous? In a fight, I mean. He fights dirty and has gadgets, but so does every single villain who's more of a thug that Batman has faced. When compared to Bane or Killer Croc... Seriously, what makes the Joker so 'scary' to fight if he's alone?

What makes the Joker scary is his ruthlessness and psychosis. He's scary because you never know what he's gonna do, when he's gonna stop, if he's gonna stop at all. We're talking about someone who shot a bomb at point-blank range to die for the lulz. But if we're talking about fisticuff dangerous, I don't see him being that much of a challenge. In all the stories where Batman faces the Joker, the former has never had problems with beating him up. It's everything else before he lays a hand on him that he's had problems with.

#35 Posted by theincrediblezero (100 posts) - - Show Bio

In a fair fight, Jason's probably stronger than both of them.  But with people like Joker and Flamingo, you're never gonna see a fair fight, cause that's what they do as villains.

#36 Posted by danhimself (22302 posts) - - Show Bio

because he was reckless and careless and dumb....he had access to the World's Greatest Detective and one of the world's greatest fighters but instead of running anything past Batman he went out on his own and got killed

#37 Edited by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:
" because he was reckless and careless and dumb....he had access to the World's Greatest Detective and one of the world's greatest fighters but instead of running anything past Batman he went out on his own and got killed "

Does your mother know you'd leave her in a room with the Joker til Batman came back from camping because he said so, Dan?

I'm always amazed when people begrudge Jason wrapping his hands around TwoFace's throat for killing his father, and risking his life to save his mother.

@entropy_aegis said: 

He got his ass kicked,Dick was the one who distracted him long enough for Jason to do something,and Flamingo escaped . "

Distracted, how? By also getting his ass kicked and thrown off a construction site, dangling for his life? Let's not pretend the arc didn't end with a Robin crippled by Flamingo. Flamingo was fucking Death Incarnate. He very likely would've wasted allllllllll of them one on one, or two on two. Jason only got shot in the head twice before the fight began from afar by a high powered rifle. The sheer fact it took a bulldozer to stop Flamingo was the point of how much of a bad-ass Morrison was making him. Stop him, not even kill him. Because again, that harkens back to the whole road runner-wiley e. coyote thing Morrison was doing there.

The Flamingo fight is so moot on so many levels.
#38 Posted by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio

Flamingo vs Jason is just like Bane vs Bruce. The first time Bruce fought Bane, he got his back broken and was forced into early retirement. But now when Bruce fights Bane, there's NO competition...Bruce kicks his ass with ease. That's the way it's gonna be with Jason and Flamingo. Jason may have had a very hard time beatin' Flamingo, but he knew nothin' about him when they fought. Now that Jason knows of his existence, Jason can learn more about him and kick his ass with ease as well. 

#39 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarcStorm said:
"Flamingo vs Jason is just like Bane vs Bruce. The first time Bruce fought Bane, he got his back broken and was forced into early retirement. But now when Bruce fights Bane, there's NO competition...Bruce kicks his ass with ease. That's the way it's gonna be with Jason and Flamingo. Jason may have had a very hard time beatin' Flamingo, but he knew nothin' about him when they fought. Now that Jason knows of his existence, Jason can learn more about him and kick his ass with ease as well.  "


BWHAHAHAHA.When did Bruce last fight Bane?Bane and Flamingo are nothing alike.Bruce never kicked Bane's ass,unless you count the stupid movies and games where for some reason Bane always ends up having his tubes rigged.

Flamingo is an unkillable death machine whom Jason can never beat unless he has the power of plot oops i meant prep.Bane and Bruce have a completly different relationship,and yes Batman>Bane obviously but the comparision between them and Flamingo/Jason does'nt hold up.

#40 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio

...*sigh*

#41 Posted by daredevil21134 (10931 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
" ...*sigh* "
Exactly lol
#42 Edited by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis:  The comparison was what I was talkin' about. When Bruce first fought Bane, he got his ass kicked because he knew nothin' about Bane beforehand.

Which CAN be compared to

When Jason first fought Flamingo, he got his ass kicked because he knew nothin' about Flamingo beforehand.

It is safe to say that any member of the Bat-family can learn MORE about their enemies between encounters. I'm not takin' anything away from Flamingo, I'm just sayin' that...The more you know about somethin', the easier it is to deal with.
#43 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
"...*sigh* "

BAH
#44 Posted by entropy_aegis (14459 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarcStorm said:
"@entropy_aegis:  The comparison was what I was talkin' about. When Bruce first fought Bane, he got his ass kicked because he knew nothin' about Bane beforehand.

Which CAN be compared to

When Jason first fought Flamingo, he got his ass kicked because he knew nothin' about Flamingo beforehand.

It is safe to say that any member of the Bat-family can learn MORE about their enemies between encounters. I'm not takin' anything away from Flamingo, I'm just sayin' that...The more you know about somethin', the easier it is to deal with. "


I'm just sayin that Bane did'nt need to exhaust Bruce,he was at his strongest,had Bird,Zombie and Trogg for backup(they're all pretty good )and Bruce then was weaker than he's today.The comparision just does'nt hold up.


 

#45 Posted by Rudyftw (987 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason Todd is pretty cool, but I think what separates him from all the other dead guys is that he was voted by The Fans to die..... That's like a double kick in the balls.

#46 Posted by DarcStorm (244 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis:  And you DON'T think Jason will become better? The comparison STILL holds up...even if YOU can't understand it.
#47 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarcStorm: Flamingo can't even process thoughts more complex than "kill" or "hungry". How exactly would he have researched Jason?
#48 Posted by daredevil21134 (10931 posts) - - Show Bio
@VampireSelektor said:
" @DarcStorm: Flamingo can't even process thoughts more complex than "kill" or "hungry". How exactly would he have researched Jason? "
lol
#49 Posted by RedHoodJT (527 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis:  Everything that you are saying in a way holds true. But Darcstorm is right about the comparison to Bane fighting Bruce. Jason knew nothing about Flamingo and got his ass whooped. Bruce knew nothing of Bane he got his ass whooped. Batman researched and studied Bane and then found a way to take him out. Jason can do the same thing with the pink little fairy. Its that simple. Its like playing a video game and it taking you hours to play one level or one mission cuz you die  s**t load of times. Then you go back and play that same thing after you've beaten the game and it took you a whole 10 minutes as apposed to several hours or tries.

@DarcStorm: I feel where you are coming too. But no matter what you say Entropy is going to disagree with you. He and I go back and forth for days on things. Its just how he is. You're wasting your time. You can't argue with some one that KNOWS their right.
#50 Posted by RedHoodsDen (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Meantime, the most substantive thread on the DCO consists of people saying "their love of Dick is rock hard"

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