Batman and Robin #20 aka Batman and Red Hood

#1 Edited by dngn4774 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

I just wanted to ask you guys how you felt about this issue. Some of you probably haven't read it yet but I think this issue is a must-read for all Red Hood fans (since it explains what happened to Jason between Red Hood 18 and 19). I won't spoil it, but IMHO I think the best summary of this story was one step forward and two steps back. Do you think that what Bruce did to Jason destroyed all of the the progress they've made in the aftermath of DotF or is there still hope that Bruce can salvage his relationship with Jason?

#2 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

I just wanted to ask you guys how you felt about this issue. Some of you probably haven't read it yet but I think this issue is a must-read for all Red Hood fans (since it explains what happened to Jason between Red Hood 18 and 19). I won't spoil it, but IMHO I think the best summary of this story was one step forward and two steps back. Do you think that what Bruce did to Jason destroyed all of the the progress they've made in the aftermath of DotF or is there still hope that Bruce can salvage his relationship with Jason?

- It was simply splendid for Tomasi to ruin all of the recent character development that has occurred between Jason and Bruce.

- Tomasi, you can **** off and go to hell. I'm probably dropping this book as well.

#3 Posted by dngn4774 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

I just wanted to ask you guys how you felt about this issue. Some of you probably haven't read it yet but I think this issue is a must-read for all Red Hood fans (since it explains what happened to Jason between Red Hood 18 and 19). I won't spoil it, but IMHO I think the best summary of this story was one step forward and two steps back. Do you think that what Bruce did to Jason destroyed all of the the progress they've made in the aftermath of DotF or is there still hope that Bruce can salvage his relationship with Jason?

- It was simply splendid for Tomasi to ruin all of the recent character development that has occurred between Jason and Bruce.

- Tomasi, you can **** off and go to hell. I'm probably dropping this book as well.

Then again this does explain why Jason made such an extreme decision in RHATO 19, so it makes Tynion's story seem more solid. Personally, I think Jason was getting too heroish (I like Red Hood to stay in that grey area that keeps him as an anti hero.) so I'm not to upset about the end result, I just didn't like the means to that end. It was sort of the victory me and @daredevil21134 have been waiting for after RHATO 18. Of course there aren't any guarantees what will happen to Jason's morality after he regains his memory but I think that Tynion is setting Jason up for his largest character development yet. Once Roy and Kori save him he will have to come to the conclusion that he can never escape his past and will finally have to embrace it. This is my theory at least. What do you think?

#4 Edited by daredevil21134 (11921 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@thejman251 said:

@dngn4774 said:

I just wanted to ask you guys how you felt about this issue. Some of you probably haven't read it yet but I think this issue is a must-read for all Red Hood fans (since it explains what happened to Jason between Red Hood 18 and 19). I won't spoil it, but IMHO I think the best summary of this story was one step forward and two steps back. Do you think that what Bruce did to Jason destroyed all of the the progress they've made in the aftermath of DotF or is there still hope that Bruce can salvage his relationship with Jason?

- It was simply splendid for Tomasi to ruin all of the recent character development that has occurred between Jason and Bruce.

- Tomasi, you can **** off and go to hell. I'm probably dropping this book as well.

Then again this does explain why Jason made such an extreme decision in RHATO 19, so it makes Tynion's story seem more solid. Personally, I think Jason was getting too heroish (I like Red Hood to stay in that grey area that keeps him as an anti hero.) so I'm not to upset about the end result, I just didn't like the means to that end. It was sort of the victory me and @daredevil21134 have been waiting for after RHATO 18. Of course there aren't any guarantees what will happen to Jason's morality after he regains his memory but I think that Tynion is setting Jason up for his largest character development yet. Once Roy and Kori save him he will have to come to the conclusion that he can never escape his past and will finally have to embrace it. This is my theory at least. What do you think?

If you're theory is right I like that idea

#5 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@thejman251 said:

@dngn4774 said:

I just wanted to ask you guys how you felt about this issue. Some of you probably haven't read it yet but I think this issue is a must-read for all Red Hood fans (since it explains what happened to Jason between Red Hood 18 and 19). I won't spoil it, but IMHO I think the best summary of this story was one step forward and two steps back. Do you think that what Bruce did to Jason destroyed all of the the progress they've made in the aftermath of DotF or is there still hope that Bruce can salvage his relationship with Jason?

- It was simply splendid for Tomasi to ruin all of the recent character development that has occurred between Jason and Bruce.

- Tomasi, you can **** off and go to hell. I'm probably dropping this book as well.

Then again this does explain why Jason made such an extreme decision in RHATO 19, so it makes Tynion's story seem more solid. Personally, I think Jason was getting too heroish (I like Red Hood to stay in that grey area that keeps him as an anti hero.) so I'm not to upset about the end result, I just didn't like the means to that end. It was sort of the victory me and @daredevil21134 have been waiting for after RHATO 18. Of course there aren't any guarantees what will happen to Jason's morality after he regains his memory but I think that Tynion is setting Jason up for his largest character development yet. Once Roy and Kori save him he will have to come to the conclusion that he can never escape his past and will finally have to embrace it. This is my theory at least. What do you think?

- I think that Jason will end up back in the same "Grrr, i'm mad!!" boat that he has been in since his resurrection, thus making Lobdell's character development trivial and irrelevant.

- Hey, i guess we can't mess with the status quo right? Because things always have to stay the same, right DC?.

#6 Posted by daredevil21134 (11921 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: @dngn4774: Personally i'm not a fan of Jason and Batman/Bat family teaming up but that doesn't mean I wanna see Jason just be a walking ball of anger and rage.I just don't understand why Jason's story can't move forward without Batman being involved in it someway.

#7 Edited by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@thejman251: @dngn4774: Personally i'm not a fan of Jason and Batman/Bat family teaming up but that doesn't mean I wanna see Jason just be a walking ball of anger and rage.I just don't understand why Jason's story can't move forward without Batman being involved in it someway.

- The thing is that Batman was part of a key event in his past, so he's most likely going to be involved in Jason's "development" , if DC even knows what that means, in some way.

- However, as it stands right now, it appears that we will be returning to the old, drawn out, ever so precious, status quo as DC appears to have a problem with change.

#8 Edited by dngn4774 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

All I really want is for Jason to remain a bad ass anti hero (sort of like the punisher of the dc universe) without bitching about how Bruce doesn't care about him every issue. Is that really so hard to ask?

#9 Posted by daredevil21134 (11921 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

All I really want is for Jason to remain a bad ass anti hero (sort of like the punisher of the dc universe) without bitching about how Bruce doesn't care about him every issue. Is that really so hard to ask?

EXACTLY!

#10 Edited by TDK_1997 (14900 posts) - - Show Bio

THe issue was pretty interesting and entertaining in the end but after Damian's death you can feel the fall of this title.The writing of Tomasi is good as always but he clearly had other plans for the characters than this.

#11 Edited by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

I just wanted to ask you guys how you felt about this issue. Some of you probably haven't read it yet but I think this issue is a must-read for all Red Hood fans (since it explains what happened to Jason between Red Hood 18 and 19). I won't spoil it, but IMHO I think the best summary of this story was one step forward and two steps back. Do you think that what Bruce did to Jason destroyed all of the the progress they've made in the aftermath of DotF or is there still hope that Bruce can salvage his relationship with Jason?

Yes.

I thought RHAtO 18 was incredible, and such a good way to conclude Lobdell's run. I read 19 and was furious and utterly confused. Reading this issue definitely deals with the confusion, but not so much with the anger. Tynion has done well with other stuff for the last year so I am not going to drop this book, but the memory swipe bit dropped it from top of my list to instant probation, because I do not want to read a book in which everything I have been reading for almost two years suddenly becomes irrelevant to the titular character.

Anyhow, they just introduced the new Cheshire and she will be in this book, apparently having had a past with Jason, so Jason will need to remember a past for that to make sense, which is why the notion that this will be undone by the end of the arc makes sense to me. If somehow it doesn't, well... like I said, it put the book on probation for me.

#12 Edited by RedX17 (75 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree it's a must read, but i just hate Bruce in this! Jason was finally ready to come home!

#13 Posted by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, I didn't think that this "ruined" the newfound relationship between Bruce and Jason. It was just a bad moment in which you have a desperate Batman and a furious (and rightfully so) Red Hood. Just look at the history between Bruce and Dick. It was a roller coaster with tons of conflicts and resolutions, but right now we see that the two of them have a really strong, familial bond. I see that happening with Jason right now. Batman may still give warnings, but at least he accepts Jason using firearms now. At least he's willing to ask Jason for help with personal matters. So they had a fight... it happens with family. I highly doubt that a grown, mature character such as Jason Todd will hold a grudge because of the events that transpired in this issue.

In fact, I think we might (possibly) be looking at more arguments/fights between Batman and the family as this series progresses. Like I said, Bruce is desperate and his emotions are obviously clouding his decisions.

#14 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1668 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't say it completely ruined things, but it was a fairly awful moment, where a father intentionally puts his child through a large amount of emotional anguish. Really, really hard to side with Bruce on this one, because the loss of one son doesn't give you the right to treat another like shit, and I was happy to see Jason call him out on it, makes perfect sense why he had something of a breakdown and chose the path he did. Much better than "Oh Joker messed me up, let me throw away all my memories". Bruce is probably the most important figure in Jason's life at the end of the day, and to have him basically show that he cares about Damian more than any other "son", would wreck Jason emotionally. Very interested to see what part Bruce will play in all this once he learns what Jason did after their little father son talk.

#15 Posted by Kid_Nacho (52 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774: Definitely gotta agree with the "One step forward, two steps back" result of this issue, especially when combined with Red Hood #19.

I personally felt like shoe horning a relationship as complex as Bruce and Jason's into one issue was a bad decision, as this may of benefitted from a greater build up to Bruce eventually revealing his ulterior motive.

One step forward would be the Bruce and Jason pledging allegiance to each other in the heat of battle

Step Back No 1 would be the bust up and the words exchanged

No 2 would be Jason wiping his mind.

It was a good issue all in all, but considering the characters involved and the subject matter, it may of benefitted from another issue or two of build

#16 Posted by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hope that things don't shift towards the past status quo. Jason is still tempered and after his own story in RHTO, we might see something new completely. Tomasi writes Batman's character terribly. He is the reason why i made the post about whether or not Bruce cares about Jason. This new grief stricken Bruce is the biggest dick bag

#17 Posted by dngn4774 (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

I really hope that things don't shift towards the past status quo. Jason is still tempered and after his own story in RHTO, we might see something new completely. Tomasi writes Batman's character terribly. He is the reason why i made the post about whether or not Bruce cares about Jason. This new grief stricken Bruce is the biggest dick bag

Since Jason spent the beginning of the book ignoring his past then spent the recent issue running away from his past, if he were to get his memories back, it seems the only thing he can do is find acceptance and finally become the fully developed character that we want him to be.

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