Tony Stark - Why wasn't he numbered among Marvel's smartest?

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#1 Posted by Alpha (7329 posts) - - Show Bio

During the Fall of Hulk saga the story was built around the Marvel seven smartest. T'Challa, Banner, Richards, Pym, McCoy,, Doom and Choi. I'm curious why Stark named isnt mentioned with these great minds. He has made technological advances that not even Doom can surpass. Is it that his expertise lay in one certain area? Isn't it the same for Banner for radiation or McCoy for biology? They are the leading experts in their fields. I would think Stark's IQ would be higi enough to be counted amoung them.

#2 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm guessing that it was an error. I think Pym has recognized that Tony is smarter than him. To be honest that isn't the 7 smartest characters in the Marvel Universe but w\e.

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#3 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

It was 8, not 7. Stark just wasn't in the series, probably due to his brain damage or whatever.  
 
Tony would probably be #4; 

  1. Reed
  2. Doom
  3. Pym
  4. Tony
#4 Posted by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
It was 8, not 7. Stark just wasn't in the series, probably due to his brain damage or whatever.  
 
Tony would probably be #4; 
  1. Reed
  2. Doom
  3. Pym
  4. Tony
I think it ends at 7 because Cho was there and he's (in all his bios) stated as the 7th smartest person in the world. However they never say who the 7 in front of him are.
#5 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain Danvers said:
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
It was 8, not 7. Stark just wasn't in the series, probably due to his brain damage or whatever.  
 
Tony would probably be #4; 
  1. Reed
  2. Doom
  3. Pym
  4. Tony
I think it ends at 7 because Cho was there and he's (in all his bios) stated as the 7th smartest person in the world. However they never say who the 7 in front of him are.
He was the 7th, then Pym came back and he was bumped down to 8. The bios were written before Secret Invasion and Pym's return.  
 
  1. Reed
  2. Doom
  3. Pym
  4. Tony
  5. Bruce Banner
  6. Hank McCoy
  7. Black Panther
  8. Amadeus Cho
#6 Posted by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
He was the 7th, then Pym came back and he was bumped down to 8. The bios were written before Secret Invasion and Pym's return.  
Doesn't make sense. Pym was always considered one of the great minds in the Marvel Universe. So why would his return change where Cho ranks? DOA he's still a top level genius.I don't know whether it's Hank or Black Panther but one of them isn't smarter than Cho.
#7 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain Danvers said:
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
He was the 7th, then Pym came back and he was bumped down to 8. The bios were written before Secret Invasion and Pym's return.  
Doesn't make sense. Pym was always considered one of the great minds in the Marvel Universe. So why would his return change where Cho ranks? DOA he's still a top level genius.I don't know whether it's Hank or Black Panther but one of them isn't smarter than Cho.
You don't count dead people when you're counting the smartest people on Earth. They're all smarter than Cho. He's eighth.  
 

 
#8 Posted by SC (12951 posts) - - Show Bio

Its because he is fictional, and sometimes writers have flawed understandings of what constitutes intelligence and how or should or even could be ranked, and so this was probably just natural writer bias at play. Then generally some writers will reference other writers list and sort of becomes a consistent theme, you might have some other writers that disagree but thankfully things haven't quite evolved into how they get over strength and power yet... actually you know, it might be indicative of our society unfortunately that its not. Oh well, its not like if the characters were actually that smart they would think intelligence could be so easily ranked so neatly. 

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#9 Edited by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:

You don't count dead people when you're counting the smartest people on Earth. They're all smarter than Cho. He's eighth.  

Pym wasn't dead when it was first stated but ok....
#10 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: Black Panther is the eigth smartest person I believe, according to his most recent series. I'll check it, but I believe Parker "asked" him if he was 9th and he said he was 8th.

#11 Posted by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@FadeToBlackBolt: Black Panther is the eigth smartest person I believe, according to his most recent series. I'll check it, but I believe Parker "asked" him if he was 9th and he said he was 8th.

To be perfectly honest I think Parker is smarter than T'Challa.
#12 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain Danvers said:

@ReVamp said:

@FadeToBlackBolt: Black Panther is the eigth smartest person I believe, according to his most recent series. I'll check it, but I believe Parker "asked" him if he was 9th and he said he was 8th.

To be perfectly honest I think Parker is smarter than T'Challa.

Not with the feats provided. T'Challa can go to the super market and use components from there to create a power disabling thingy. Parker rarely uses his smarts.

#13 Posted by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

Not with the feats provided. T'Challa can go to the super market and use components from there to create a power disabling thingy. 

I don't believe that's out of Parker's range. 
 
@ReVamp said:

Parker rarely uses his smarts.

I disagree.
#14 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain Danvers said:

@ReVamp said:

Not with the feats provided. T'Challa can go to the super market and use components from there to create a power disabling thingy.

I don't believe that's out of Parker's range.

@ReVamp said:

Parker rarely uses his smarts.

I disagree.

It doesn't have to do with being within Parker's range or not, it has to do with the fact Parker rarely does anything with his smarts. He only started to recently, and even then, it isn't anything impressive. Still, you're entitled to your opinion.

#15 Posted by dadaism (227 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

Its because he is fictional, and sometimes writers have flawed understandings of what constitutes intelligence and how or should or even could be ranked, and so this was probably just natural writer bias at play. Then generally some writers will reference other writers list and sort of becomes a consistent theme, you might have some other writers that disagree but thankfully things haven't quite evolved into how they get over strength and power yet... actually you know, it might be indicative of our society unfortunately that its not. Oh well, its not like if the characters were actually that smart they would think intelligence could be so easily ranked so neatly.

I unfortunately have to agree :(, writers depending on who is their favorite characters will invent ways to by pass what ever pass's for cannon anymore. Besides just look how out dated and antiquated a intelligence test is & you will understand how impossible it is to measure creativity

#16 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

If you count villains it becomes very difficult to rank the smartest marvel characters because so many villains are the "evil mastermind." So I'm ignoring them.

In no particular order, those in the running for "smartest Marvel hero" would be (IMO):

  • Reed Richards
  • Hank Pym
  • Tony Stark (he does what Forge and Jeffries do without powers)
  • Hank McCoy
  • Peter Parker
  • T'challa
  • Amadeus Cho
  • Bruce Banner

Those are all the big name "science heroes" I could think of. I'm sure I'm missing some. An equivalent villain list would be much longer I suspect.

#17 Posted by Alpha (7329 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: But the series didn't list Stark as one of the seven smartest. Pym coming back did bump Choi back to 8th but that just made Pym one of the seven. Stark wasn't listed or mentioned.

#18 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
@Alpha said:

Pym coming back did bump Choi back to.

Cho

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#19 Edited by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Prodigy at full potential would have been on the list

#20 Posted by PrinceIMC (5421 posts) - - Show Bio

In most stats and even mentioned in the comics Stark is usually ranked above Pym if only just barely. As for the standing of the smartest 7 minds Cho's title as seventh smartest person was given to him by a website after filling out an IQ test so it can hardly be considered conclusive, even if it was Athena who was behind it.

#21 Posted by Loki9876 (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

... he was.

#22 Posted by WarMachineMarkV (1214 posts) - - Show Bio

1 - Stark was in the process of becoming the world's sexiest vegetable

2 - Greg Pak constantly made Banner and Cho look good at Starks expense.

- The list of the smartest characters is very hard to order because many while we have been told that certain characters are great minds, only some of them have we really been shown it consistently.

- It is obvious that the writers are trying to justify a lot of names on the list but the amount of great feats that some of the names on the list have had that have come out of nowhere, or outside their main fields of study.

- Based off of all of their intellectual and technical feats, from the perspective of a long time reader, I would rate them (Heroes Only)

1 - Reed Richards

2 - Tony Stark

3 - Hank Pym

4 - Bruce Banner

5 - Hank McCoy

Black Panther - While we are told, we rarely see why he belongs on this list, writers tend to focus on his physical traits far more

Amadeus Cho - Came out of nowhere and with no experience was shown to perform feat after feat to try to make him important.

- If Marvel wants to push certain characters up or down the list, I really don't care, just show the feats to warrant it. I really hate it when they tell you things that are never supported in the books themselves, its lazy.

#23 Posted by MrUnknown (1700 posts) - - Show Bio

He wasn't included because that Hulk ran around the same time as the end of World's Most Wanted and Stark was forgetting everything he knew in order to destroy the Superhuman Registration Database.

#24 Posted by yumyumbubblegum (618 posts) - - Show Bio

Doom and Richards are a given for the 1st and 2nd spot, but I always thought it would be Banner he would round out the top 3. As big a threat the Hulk is, the gamma bomb that created him was to save the world from Banner. IMO

  1. Reed Richards
  2. Victor von Doom
  3. Bruce Banner
  4. Hank Pym
  5. Tony Stark (arguable #4)
#25 Posted by batkevin74 (10587 posts) - - Show Bio

So where would say the Mad Thinker rank? Sure he's mad, but that's just a title. Also how about the Fixer (Paul Ebersol)? Or Mendel Stromm? Or the Wizard or other members of the Intelligencia? How come the good guys seem to automatically rank higher than the bad guys...the bad guys come up with the death ray, evil plots, killer robots and mutant viruses which require geniune smarts, before the curve thinking and intelligence.

Then there's Dr Strange who has got to be wicked smart coz 1) He's an actual doctor! and 2) He's this dimension's (DIMENSION, that's like an entire PLANE OF EXISTENCE) sorceror supreme which means he has to wrap his mind around transmutations and speak dead/ancient/forgotten/unpronoucable languages

Also Thena of the Eternals should be up there because 3000+yrs of knowledge from the world's greatest minds from actual history, constant collaborations inside the Uni-Mind which and I Wiki-quote "it has an immeasurable intellect, and the composite knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience of all its constituent beings" so she's possibly smarter than anyone!

Also there's the High Evolutionary and Mr Sinister

So honestly, we need to work out the list proper like I believe

#26 Posted by WarMachineMarkV (1214 posts) - - Show Bio

@batkevin74 said:

So where would say the Mad Thinker rank? Sure he's mad, but that's just a title. Also how about the Fixer (Paul Ebersol)? Or Mendel Stromm? Or the Wizard or other members of the Intelligencia? How come the good guys seem to automatically rank higher than the bad guys...the bad guys come up with the death ray, evil plots, killer robots and mutant viruses which require geniune smarts, before the curve thinking and intelligence.

Then there's Dr Strange who has got to be wicked smart coz 1) He's an actual doctor! and 2) He's this dimension's (DIMENSION, that's like an entire PLANE OF EXISTENCE) sorceror supreme which means he has to wrap his mind around transmutations and speak dead/ancient/forgotten/unpronoucable languages

Also Thena of the Eternals should be up there because 3000+yrs of knowledge from the world's greatest minds from actual history, constant collaborations inside the Uni-Mind which and I Wiki-quote "it has an immeasurable intellect, and the composite knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience of all its constituent beings" so she's possibly smarter than anyone!

Also there's the High Evolutionary and Mr Sinister

So honestly, we need to work out the list proper like I believe

- Making a list of all heroes and villains is pretty difficult considering most of the genius villains have nowhere near the screen time to justify their positions. Even if you disqualify all the cosmics and gods, it will be near impossible to make a top 10 that anyone can justify and agree on.

- Dr Strange is very intelligent in comparison to the normal person in the Marvel U, but not to anyone on this list, he is a specialist.

- Thena accessing an external source (no pun intended) does not really count, that would be like saying Tony Stark is smarter than Reed because he could have used Extremis to tap into every data source on earth. It has to be personal ability, and not just knowledge but the ability to apply it.

#27 Edited by DEGRAAF (7876 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it was actually mentioned even that he would have been in the list if he hadn't caused himself brain damage at that time.

#28 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
@yumyumbubblegum said:

Doom and Richards are a given for the 1st and 2nd spot, but I always thought it would be Banner he would round out the top 3. As big a threat the Hulk is, the gamma bomb that created him was to save the world from Banner. IMO

  1. Reed Richards
  2. Victor von Doom
  3. Bruce Banner
  4. Hank Pym
  5. Tony Stark (arguable #4)
Really don't see how anyone believes Banner is smarter than Stark.
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#29 Posted by WarMachineMarkV (1214 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@yumyumbubblegum said:

Doom and Richards are a given for the 1st and 2nd spot, but I always thought it would be Banner he would round out the top 3. As big a threat the Hulk is, the gamma bomb that created him was to save the world from Banner. IMO

  1. Reed Richards
  2. Victor von Doom
  3. Bruce Banner
  4. Hank Pym
  5. Tony Stark (arguable #4)
Really don't see how anyone believes Banner is smarter than Stark.

- Banner and Pym have been given epic feats lately, depending on how long the reader has been into comics I can see how they would think this. From my POV as a long term reader I also do not see it.

- After reading Pak's run during the Hulk events where Banner and Cho made chumps of everyone and both have feats from out of nowhere...

#30 Posted by venomyak (1443 posts) - - Show Bio

As I understand it the eight smartest marvel characters are Mr. Fantastic, Dr. Doom, Bruce Banner, T,Challa, Amadeus Cho, Beast, Hank Pym, Tony Stark. They are never given any order except Pym and Cho who appear to be competing for 7 & 8.

#31 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@venomyak said:

As I understand it the eight smartest marvel characters are Mr. Fantastic, Dr. Doom, Bruce Banner, T,Challa, Amadeus Cho, Beast, Hank Pym, Tony Stark. They are never given any order except Pym and Cho who appear to be competing for 7 & 8.

That's not accurate. Pym's top 4. 
#32 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Where would Valeria Richards fall into this? She's only, like, 3 and she seems like she could be in the top 10. She's definitely smarter than Parker, imo.

#33 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:

Where would Valeria Richards fall into this? She's only, like, 3 and she seems like she could be in the top 10. She's definitely smarter than Parker, imo.

Unfortunately, in-context Word of God says she's number 1. 
#34 Posted by SKRULLCATEXE (10 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't recall the Intelligencia's list ever being ranked, just in order and persons of key interest to their plans. Noting that none of the Intelligencia themselves where on the list, not even M.O.D.O.K. Noting that Beast himself had a similar go to list of people he rated well above himself during Endangered Species, which included his own doppleganger Dark Beast, who is actually smarter than himself and proven so. It also included the High Evolutionary, Pandemic, Sinister, Arnim Zola, ect. You can take that a step farther and analyze the characters present Council Of Doom, in X-Club, and so on and make arguments for where they rate here. in the I think people read way to into stuff like this, and comical humor in statements made by characters as much as they do things like Omega levels in mutants, Spider-man making a sarcastic joke about Sentry and Galactus. Think about this, if you can name characters that actually exceed any on this list, then you know that because Marvel knows that, and if they do then what you saw there isn't what your assuming it to be. In short, this is not, and was not an actual list of the smartest characters on Marvel 616 Earth, so the point is moot.

#35 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
@WarMachineMarkV said:

- Banner and Pym have been given epic feats lately, depending on how long the reader has been into comics I can see how they would think this. From my POV as a long term reader I also do not see it.

- After reading Pak's run during the Hulk events where Banner and Cho made chumps of everyone and both have feats from out of nowhere...

Feats like what?
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#36 Posted by LP (675 posts) - - Show Bio

@WarMachineMarkV said:

- If Marvel wants to push certain characters up or down the list, I really don't care, just show the feats to warrant it. I really hate it when they tell you things that are never supported in the books themselves, its lazy.

Exactly.

#37 Posted by Wise Son (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain Danvers said:

@ReVamp said:

@FadeToBlackBolt: Black Panther is the eigth smartest person I believe, according to his most recent series. I'll check it, but I believe Parker "asked" him if he was 9th and he said he was 8th.

To be perfectly honest I think Parker is smarter than T'Challa.

I disagree. What has Parker done? I have been out of the ol' Webhead's loop for a while.I'm talking early 2000s.

@spiderbat87 said:

I think Prodigy at full potential would have been on the list

Powered Prodigy in the same room with these guys then it's no contest.

#38 Posted by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wise Son said:

I disagree. What has Parker done? I have been out of the ol' Webhead's loop for a while.I'm talking early 2000s.

For starters he created those web-shooters he uses every day.
#39 Posted by Wise Son (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain Danvers said:

@Wise Son said:

I disagree. What has Parker done? I have been out of the ol' Webhead's loop for a while.I'm talking early 2000s.

For starters he created those web-shooters he uses every day.

Wow, because no one else on this list could do that. Any more feats?

#40 Posted by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wise Son said:

Wow, because no one else on this list could do that. Any more feats?

We're not talking about everyone else on this list..we're talking about T'Challa.....That's Parker's lightwork.
#41 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

The numbering of "smartest characters" in the Marvel Universe is stupid. I don't think we can say that half of these characters are any smarter than each other, this also excludes alot of villains and cosmics with a vast intellect.Is Hank McCoy any smarter than Sinister? Hasn't Maya Hensen (creator of the Extremis Virus) proven she is smarter than Stark or at least on his level? What about Valeria Richards? Norman Osborn? High Evolutionary? MODOK? Leader? Eff Marvel and their punk ass list. 

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#42 Edited by Wise Son (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain Danvers: T'Challa made an inertia robbing forcefield out of common household items in his current series. Much more complex than web shooters. Again, got any more feats?

#43 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
  Hasn't Maya Hensen (creator of the Extremis Virus) proven she is smarter than Stark or at least on his level?
Aside from Tony saying she's smarter than he is in a caption, no, she hasn't. At the end of that storyline Tony outsmarts her, anyway.
 
Agreed about Valeria and HE though, the omissions are glaring, but one could argue that for Valeria, she is not nearly as well known as the others for the Intelligencia to rank her.
 
By the by, I am quite sure MODOK and the Leader did comment about Tony Stark's status and I could have sworn he was one of the eight or nine, or whatever. I'll try to dig it up.
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#44 Edited by Captain Danvers (149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wise Son said:

T'Challa made an inertia robbing forcefield out of common household items in his current series. Much more complex than web shooters. Again, got any more feats?

Peter Parker is alot younger than most on the list, accept Cho but his accolades from that of other great minds makes it evident that he's probably smarter than T'Challa. For starters he created web tracers when he was a teenager. When Hank Pym first analyzed them he was amazed that Spider-Man could create a device that locks into the frequency of his own Spider-Sense when it took him years to do something similar with his helmet with a much more mature intellect. Spider-Man produced in minutes what took years for Pym.Also Parker took an I.Q. test and his scores were equal to that of Reed Richards when Reed Richards was that age.
#45 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
Three of eight.
 
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#46 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
Three of eight.
 
Nice. 
 
 
@Morpheus_ said:
@Vance Astro said:
  Hasn't Maya Hensen (creator of the Extremis Virus) proven she is smarter than Stark or at least on his level?
Aside from Tony saying she's smarter than he is in a caption, no, she hasn't. At the end of that storyline Tony outsmarts her, anyway.
 
Agreed about Valeria and HE though, the omissions are glaring, but one could argue that for Valeria, she is not nearly as well known as the others for the Intelligencia to rank her.
 
By the by, I am quite sure MODOK and the Leader did comment about Tony Stark's status and I could have sworn he was one of the eight or nine, or whatever. I'll try to dig it up.
I don't remember much about that story arc. I think the Iron Manual though gave Maya an intellect rank of Level 6 though which I believe is above what characters like T'Challa & Beast are ranked.
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#47 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: Yeah, both Beast and T'Challa are given generic 5s, but I haven't seen an updated entry for T'Challa in particular in a long time. And yes, the Iron Manual did give Maya a 6, but aside from creating Extremis she hasn't really done anything.
 
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#48 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
@Vance Astro: Yeah, both Beast and T'Challa are given generic 5s, but I haven't seen an updated entry for T'Challa in particular in a long time. And yes, the Iron Manual did give Maya a 6, but aside from creating Extremis she hasn't really done anything.
 
Extremis isn't enough? :)
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#49 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

@WarMachineMarkV said:

Stark was in the process of becoming the world's sexiest vegetable

You win the internet.

#50 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
@Morpheus_ said:
@Vance Astro: Yeah, both Beast and T'Challa are given generic 5s, but I haven't seen an updated entry for T'Challa in particular in a long time. And yes, the Iron Manual did give Maya a 6, but aside from creating Extremis she hasn't really done anything.
 
Extremis isn't enough? :)
Given some of the things Tony has done, nope. :p
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