Icon is the superhero persona of Arnus aka Augustus Freeman, and member of the Terminan alien race. He crash-landed on Earth in the American South in 1839; Raised as a slave, but escaped through the Underground Railroad. Following a series of events, Augustus decides to become a Superhero, and eventually joins the Justice League, after being drafted by Superman.
Several things give him the potential to be an A-Lister.
1) His Superman/Flash/GL tier power levels make him an asset to every team. 2)He has an interesting history that can be flushed out with better writing. 3) He's a Black hero with a with a strong personality, non-racist name, and good looks. You may ask why this is important. Well, DC's heroes are supposed to look perfect and have great strength. They are our personal aspirations. Growing up, I didn't want to be Black Lightning because of his name or Cyborg because of his half-face. I really like John Stewart, but he's been shoved into the background due to DC's focus on Hal. Icon isn't a legacy or replacement, so we wouldn't have to worry about fanboys trying to replace him with a previous iteration.
" Several things give him the potential to be an A-Lister. 1) His Superman/Flash/GL tier power levels make him an asset to every team.2)He has an interesting history that can be flushed out with better writing. 3) He's a Black hero with a with a strong personality, non-racist name, and good looks. You may ask why this is important. Well, DC's heroes are supposed to look perfect and have great strength. They are our personal aspirations. Growing up, I didn't want to be Black Lightning because of his name or Cyborg because of his half-face. I really like John Stewart, but he's been shoved into the background due to DC's focus on Hal. Icon isn't a legacy or replacement, so we wouldn't have to worry about fanboys trying to replace him with a previous iteration. "
That's the thing his powers aren't unique. His history is the thing that bothers me "lol I'm immune from Oan law noob" Diversity is always a good thing, but Icon is very meh in my opinion.
Having a unique power assortment (or lack there of ) shouldn't limit ICON's potential to be used as a prominent character. His positives far outweigh that one perceived negative. In addition ICON's own legacy should warrant him usage . The character has a built n fan base clamoring for more appearances.
I seriously look forward to the character receiving a brighter spotlight as its warranted. There really is no reason NOT to use the character . As Captain13 mentioned he isnt a replacement of an established character (and stands on his own quite well as a character).
" Having a unique power assortment (or lack there of ) shouldn't limit ICON's potential to be used as a prominent character. His positives far outweigh that one perceived negative. In addition ICON's own legacy should warrant him usage .The character has a built n fan base clamoring for more appearances. I seriously look forward to the character receiving a brighter spotlight as its warranted. There really is no reason NOT to use the character . As Captain13 mentioned he isnt a replacement of an established character (and stands on his own quite well as a character). "
Name them.
From what I can tell his fanbase consists of 5 or 6 people.
He's antagonistic to other heroes for the sake of being antagonistic and it's done really poorly. This Cooperative he's a part of is actually a clash with establish lore of DCU that states that outside the 3600 Green Lantern sectors the Universe is dangerous chaotic and at war. Look at Thangar and Rand, hell look at the Rand Thangar War. Most likely an oversight by the author that used him after the merger of the two universes.
If he stood quite well on his own, he would've existed beyond JLA. He doesn't stand quite well on his own, he's pretty much a poor attempt at a black Superman.
I don't get people's attachment to Dakotaverse, there are a lot better heroes out there.
I'll assume the comment re: ICON , a cornerstone if not THE cornerstone character of the Milestone Comics company , having a fan base of 5 or 6 people is exquisite hyperbole :) At the very least i'd suggest a google search to dissuade you from that belief. I'd venture to say that an established company like DC assumed more than "5 or 6 people" might be interested in ICON which is why he was in the run of JLA comics that he was.
Re: his being antagonistic towards other heroes for the sake of being antagonistic im genuinely curious as to where something like that has taken place (seriously..i am)? Are you referring to his Milestone comics solo title run? His Justice League appearances?
With regard to the Cooperative i agree that it may have been an oversight by the author when they decided to include it in his back and forth with Green lantern John Stewart OR DC simply plans on tapping into the fertile soil of the unknown which is the essence of story telling. No clue but im open to any of those answers.
To suggest that the character cant stand on his own (the character had his own solo title. Theres nothing to prove there) because DC hasnt used them often strikes me as inaccurate. Im sure you can think of several characters over your lifetime of reading who had potential but didnt receive an adequate opportunity to showcase that potential with storyline opportunities, a quality writer and artist. "Character assassination" , and i use the description loosely, has little to do with a fictional character and quite a bit to do with the direction a company or creator chooses to take the character (or NOT take them for that matter). A great and silly example of this is the live action fictional storytelling of "Professional Wrestling" . Yesterdays "face" can be tomorrows " heel" and vice versa. Its the WRITERS that dictate the direction of a fictional character. As it stands there is a fan base that wants to see ICON depicted as he was created to be - a strong character physically and mentally. Its up to DC to deliver that. If they dont...it isnt the fault of the fictional character whose already had a solo title.
And i've heard the Black Superman moniker tossed about before. It strikes me as a very much North American perspective of the character. Heroes are heroes.
By that logic anyone with powers that are predated by another character with the same powers is automatically a copy of the original. *i realize the below examples dont accurately represent characters that originally had these powers Anyone with super speed = a clone of The Flash (Quicksilver?) Anyone with super strength = a clone of The Hulk (The Thing) Anyone with flight = a clone of the first character with flight heh Anyone with telekinesis = a clone of Professor X Green Arrow - Hawkeye - Red Arrow - Speedy
Is Moonknight , a character that i like visually, a clone of Batman or does his mental instability (a characteristic written for the character) let him off of the hook? Outside of their powers ...what is similar about Superman when compared to ICON? How super is super strength and when is it dissimilar i.e. If character A is class 10 strength and character B is class 9 strength but they can both lift a building do they have the same level of super strength just because they are both strong and therefore one is a clone of the other? Of course not.
I could go on and on. Power sets dont define characters. Writing defines characters.
ICON is a character that needs to be pushed (like other characters ) . Whether or not it will happen remains to be seen. I know i'll support the character if he is used the way that companies notice - with my dollars.
Note: i didnt answer your question re: ICONS positives due to the OP covering some nice points and also because likes and dislikes are subjective. The things i like about ICON i like about other characters that i find worthwhile . The things you dislike about ICON im sure might apply to other characters you dislike as well. Its a matter of taste.
His Justice League appearances is what I mean when I say he's antagonistic.
He stood on his own with Milestone Media, from what I've seen its sole purpose was to sell minority superheroes to the public, the publication seemed to have merged with DC and we see nothing of Icon, because lets face it, he's a black superman.
I gotta thank Clark for these glasses! Powerset aside, his personality is a carbon copy of Superman. He's a Black Superman.
The fact of the matter is his original creator wrote him poorly. I've had the misfortune of reading a few of his original exploits and they're just bad.
If you want to argue he deserves a retcon and a total rebuild, I might be swayed to that, but I will have to counter by pointing out there are characters with better origins and larger fan-bases that deserve it more. Martian Manhunter for instance, Steel, the Blackhawks(Modern Blackhawks would rock!), I could go on.
What specifically was antagonistic regarding ICON and Superman's arrangement to deceive their teammates? Its was arranged subterfuge in order for the characters ICON and Superman to achieve their unified goal. Outside of that i would need another example to understand your perspective.
I wont claim to be an expert on Milestone Medias history but from what i recall their goal wasnt to sell "minority superheroes" to the public as there already were superheroes of color in media and comics in both large (Marvel and DC) and independent smaller comic companies . What Milestone was trying to do is provide a diversity of character representation in "minorities" as opposed to stock archetypes and cliches (i.e. not reformed criminals who were cheated by the "Man", former criminals or drug delaers / users, angry black men trying to counter the system of injustice that was supposedly against them). All people of color...not just african americans (not that you claimed that).
Your statement that his personality is a carbon copy of Supermans suggest you either havent read the ICON series or didnt read it thoroughly. ICON's personality was written to be far more akin to a modern day Rush Limbaugh if you can believe that ( HA!) or any other Right Wing personality (like Michael Savage for example). Clark Kent has always been written as the "big boy scout" who looked out for the down trodden and the common man. The uber good guy that was sticking up for the little guy and morals.
That was absolutely NOT ICON.
ICON was living as an elitist in a mansion and despite taking on the look of an african american did not hold political or social views that are stereotypically associated with that voting block historically. Again...either you didnt read the ICON series or you didnt read it thoroughly. No one who has read it would suggest Clark Kent / Superman the newspaper guy has a similar personality compared to ICONs alter ego who was a rich elitist. At all. If Superman was ever written that way he'd lose fans heh.
So if they arent similar in personality...and powers dont dictate character as many are shared across the comics medium...what are the similarities between the 2? That ICON has a short haircut? That he wears glasses? That he wears a suit? That he is male? Well built? Ultimately the "white this or black that or latino this" is a predominantly North American creation i.e. looking at things through the lense of ethnicity as opposed to content.
I dont think ICON needs a retcon . In fact i think that would get complicated. If anything Milestone properties should have simply been expanded upon while still remaining separate from the main DC universe but even thats debatable and i wouldnt endorse . ICON is a strong willed character with a nice standard power set package that isnt tied down with any historical or emotional (read FANBOY ANGST) baggage. All DC has to do is put a writer "on him" and make him "work" and reach out to the people that want to read this character.
If people are uncomfortable with him being a black character that has a strong personality with no stereotypical characteristic flaws then that group of people simply needs to get over it. To write the character as anything other than what he is would be dishonest fan service to a minority group.
I will agree with you re: Steel and the Blackhawks (not Matian Manhunter who seems to get plenty of opportunities to shine and has for years). The Blackhawks if expanded upon would be AWESOME. I hate to do this but a commercial property like the 1980's GI JOE is an example of what the Blackhawks could be and , yes , to me that would be great. Adventures on land sea and air :D
I digress...
Steel definitely needs more of an opportunity to shine and expand but in my opinion he is saddled with historical baggage (he is tied to an established character so he will always be the "other " or "black superman") and bad film starring Shaquille Oneal was released based upon the character. 2 strikes already. ICON has none of that baggae. He doesnt need to be tied to any established character as he is strong enough to stand on his own. The character simply doesnt need a crutch. He just needs a shot and a writer that has the chops.
Still , Steel is a character that needs to have a chance to shine as he has a nice "power set" .
@Customizer: I agree with many of the things you say but I do wonder about one thing not sure if you pick up Batman Inc. but there several people in the world who emulate Batman, possible that many years with Superman like power use him as an example after all if you had that many power what stopping you from having bad day and just lashing out. Which I guess mean you see Superman as your inspiration and idol, doing so any character from any race could hold a the title of superman.
Personally I'm Latino and see so far most Hispanic characters are all super-dumb or just cover in classic ideas so I understand the need for character that equally and fairly represent your race
They need to change his costume color scheme. Greens and oranges are terrible together (and i am not a fan of either separately or in conjunction with other colors unless it's black).
But if written well, and given a better looking costume with a better color scheme, I agree, he has the potential to be a very popular character.
I like him as a character and wouldnt mind him taking a spot on the JLA but i would like to see them separate his character from Superman's a little more.
I would be happy to see him again as long as they dont make him like 'SHAFT' or Black Lightning
I want to see more of ICON's relationship with his wife Estelle. I know she died back in '79, but they could bring her back to life. I feel that Estelle represents the strong points of Milestone comics, that most of the male super heroes had a strong female present to help them become what they are. So if it wasn't for Rocket convincing Agustus to be superhero, Echoing the same ideas that his dead wife Estelle use to tell him, than he wouldn't have become ICON. Same thing for another character Hardware. If it wasn't for close friend Barraki, whom had told him what he needed to hear at certain times, then he would led down to a path of self-destruction.
I want him to be used again by DC and I want the many other Milestone characters to be used as well. I feel that Icon is a great character and I would love to see him with his own series and as a member of the JLA.
DC would really have to separate him from Superman for me to really like the guy. Its been said before and I agree that he's really just a black Superman and not to well written. I think the issue with him not really being on any teams is the fact that they either already have Superman or a character very much like him (supergirl/superboy) or on par power wise (marvel/black marvel family) or other Superman-esque people. The Dakota heroes have been a bit stale for me since they were brought over but for Icon I think if they made him a borderline villain or anti hero for a while and gave him a few slugfest issues with some of the other incredibly strong people then it could help build his character and reputation. They should also build up his rogue gallery a bit more the only one I know is Holocaust and he seemed much more at home as a Superboy villain from the brief fight he had with Conner in TT.
Its been said before and I agree that he's really just a black Superman and not to well written. I think the issue with him not really being on any teams is the fact that they either already have Superman or a character very much like him (supergirl/superboy) or on par power wise (marvel/black marvel family) or other Superman-esque people.
I would love to see more of ICON. Clark Kent wouldn't be able to look Augustus Freeman IV in the eyes, and I'm sure any woman (including Lois) would find an intelligent, confidant, and well spoken man like Augustus more appealing than a clumsy, stuttering oaf like Clark Kent.
His Justice League appearances is what I mean when I say he's antagonistic.
He stood on his own with Milestone Media, from what I've seen its sole purpose was to sell minority superheroes to the public, the publication seemed to have merged with DC and we see nothing of Icon, because lets face it, he's a black superman.
I gotta thank Clark for these glasses! Powerset aside, his personality is a carbon copy of Superman. He's a Black Superman. The fact of the matter is his original creator wrote him poorly. I've had the misfortune of reading a few of his original exploits and they're just bad. If you want to argue he deserves a retcon and a total rebuild, I might be swayed to that, but I will have to counter by pointing out there are characters with better origins and larger fan-bases that deserve it more. Martian Manhunter for instance, Steel, the Blackhawks(Modern Blackhawks would rock!), I could go on.
Why is it in every online discussion about ICON, someone has to compare him to Superman? If you actually read the comic, you would know that In ICON #16, they pretty much already settled that dispute.
Why is it in every online discussion about ICON, someone has to compare him to Superman? If you actually read the comic, you would know that In ICON #16, they pretty much already settled that dispute.
The fact that you expect me to remember a comicbook fight from 1994. Especially of a hero I clearly dislike is rather humorous. My god...even his cape is bigger.And this really just accents his comparison to Superman. He's a boring Superman. Get over it.
Why is it in every online discussion about ICON, someone has to compare him to Superman? If you actually read the comic, you would know that In ICON #16, they pretty much already settled that dispute.
The fact that you expect me to remember a comicbook fight from 1994. Especially of a hero I clearly dislike is rather humorous. My god...even his cape is bigger.And this really just accents his comparison to Superman. He's a boring Superman. Get over it.
"ICON is that rarest of creatures-- a well told adventure story that achieves genuine depth. Highly recommended."ALAN MOORE
"Raised by slaves in the pre-cicil war south, Augustus Freeman has lived as an African-American for over 150 years, carefully hiding his true nature even as he develops an ironclad creed of self-reliance--- and amasses a fortune.
...When he crosses paths with a young girl whose inner-city environment threatens to crush her dreams as it has with so many others, she inspires him to step out of the shadows and use his extraordinary powers for good."
He has his similarities, and his differences. You don't like him, fine. Why come here with it.
Oh, and your "Even his cape is bigger" comment was in very poor taste and very juvenile. We are enjoying and celebrating this character. You have voiced your opinion, why continue to persist?
Youd think as there trying to make the DCU more diverse they would have in there some where
Being that Hardware is mentoring Static Shock from a far in Dakata (Yes, it still exists in the New 52), there is no telling. ICON, The Blood Syndicate, Xombie, etcetera might show up.
Why is it in every online discussion about ICON, someone has to compare him to Superman? If you actually read the comic, you would know that In ICON #16, they pretty much already settled that dispute.
The fact that you expect me to remember a comicbook fight from 1994. Especially of a hero I clearly dislike is rather humorous. My god...even his cape is bigger.And this really just accents his comparison to Superman. He's a boring Superman. Get over it.
"ICON is that rarest of creatures-- a well told adventure story that achieves genuine depth. Highly recommended."ALAN MOORE "Raised by slaves in the pre-cicil war south, Augustus Freeman has lived as an African-American for over 150 years, carefully hiding his true nature even as he develops an ironclad creed of self-reliance--- and amasses a fortune. ...When he crosses paths with a young girl whose inner-city environment threatens to crush her dreams as it has with so many others, she inspires him to step out of the shadows and use his extraordinary powers for good." He has his similarities, and his differences. You don't like him, fine. Why come here with it. Oh, and your "Even his cape is bigger" comment was in very poor taste and very juvenile. We are enjoying and celebrating this character. You have voiced your opinion, why continue to persist?
You do know when someone quotes you it sends you a PM. I actually let the matter settle on "Different Strokes for Different Folks" until I was responded to. As this is a forum and someone responded to my statement, I in turn responded to their's. It's how a forum works. That's why.
As to his back story, it's interesting yes, maybe you can blame it on it being a 90's baby(Comics that were created/written in the 90's), I found the series itself trite. His inclusion into the DCU was nothing short of a bad joke. If he's different in the reboot great, but what I read of him, when he had his own series it was nothing special.
As for Alan Moore's comment on Icon. It bears little on MY opinion of Icon. Actually that's a lie, it doesn't have any weight with me.
Now onto the joke (the caption), it's a joke. Get over it. Fridgeraider mentioned that specific issue as an attempt to quell the comparison he has to Superman. It's a Verus's comic. Seriously, that's the worst way to attempt to quell a comparison. If you don't believe me go check out the "speshul-ness" we call the Battle Forum.
Why is it in every online discussion about ICON, someone has to compare him to Superman? If you actually read the comic, you would know that In ICON #16, they pretty much already settled that dispute.
The fact that you expect me to remember a comicbook fight from 1994. Especially of a hero I clearly dislike is rather humorous. My god...even his cape is bigger.And this really just accents his comparison to Superman. He's a boring Superman. Get over it.
"ICON is that rarest of creatures-- a well told adventure story that achieves genuine depth. Highly recommended."ALAN MOORE "Raised by slaves in the pre-cicil war south, Augustus Freeman has lived as an African-American for over 150 years, carefully hiding his true nature even as he develops an ironclad creed of self-reliance--- and amasses a fortune. ...When he crosses paths with a young girl whose inner-city environment threatens to crush her dreams as it has with so many others, she inspires him to step out of the shadows and use his extraordinary powers for good." He has his similarities, and his differences. You don't like him, fine. Why come here with it. Oh, and your "Even his cape is bigger" comment was in very poor taste and very juvenile. We are enjoying and celebrating this character. You have voiced your opinion, why continue to persist?
You do know when someone quotes you it sends you a PM. I actually let the matter settle on "Different Strokes for Different Folks" until I was responded to. As this is a forum and someone responded to my statement, I in turn responded to their's. It's how a forum works. That's why. As to his back story, it's interesting yes, maybe you can blame it on it being a 90's baby(Comics that were created/written in the 90's), I found the series itself trite. His inclusion into the DCU was nothing short of a bad joke. If he's different in the reboot great, but what I read of him, when he had his own series it was nothing special. As for Alan Moore's comment on Icon. It bears little on MY opinion of Icon. Actually that's a lie, it doesn't have any weight with me. Now onto the joke (the caption), it's a joke. Get over it. Fridgeraider mentioned that specific issue as an attempt to quell the comparison he has to Superman. It's a Verus's comic. Seriously, that's the worst way to attempt to quell a comparison. If you don't believe me go check out the "speshul-ness" we call the Battle Forum.
Get over your humor being tasteless and juvenile? Hey, already there. The whole "it's a joke" thing only works when it's actually funny. Who writes your material, Rush Limbaugh??
And I'll take Alan Moore's endorsement over yours any day of the week.
Get over your humor being tasteless and juvenile? Hey, already there. The whole "it's a joke" thing only works when it's actually funny. Who writes your material, Rush Limbaugh?? And I'll take Alan Moore's endorsement over yours any day of the week.
Great. If you were actually over it, you would stop talking about it.
Great, what was the point in quoting him at all though?
Why is it in every online discussion about ICON, someone has to compare him to Superman? If you actually read the comic, you would know that In ICON #16, they pretty much already settled that dispute.
The fact that you expect me to remember a comicbook fight from 1994. Especially of a hero I clearly dislike is rather humorous. My god...even his cape is bigger.And this really just accents his comparison to Superman. He's a boring Superman. Get over it.
"ICON is that rarest of creatures-- a well told adventure story that achieves genuine depth. Highly recommended."ALAN MOORE"Raised by slaves in the pre-cicil war south, Augustus Freeman has lived as an African-American for over 150 years, carefully hiding his true nature even as he develops an ironclad creed of self-reliance--- and amasses a fortune. ...When he crosses paths with a young girl whose inner-city environment threatens to crush her dreams as it has with so many others, she inspires him to step out of the shadows and use his extraordinary powers for good." He has his similarities, and his differences. You don't like him, fine. Why come here with it. Oh, and your "Even his cape is bigger" comment was in very poor taste and very juvenile. We are enjoying and celebrating this character. You have voiced your opinion, why continue to persist?
You do know when someone quotes you it sends you a PM. I actually let the matter settle on "Different Strokes for Different Folks" until I was responded to. As this is a forum and someone responded to my statement, I in turn responded to their's. It's how a forum works. That's why. As to his back story, it's interesting yes, maybe you can blame it on it being a 90's baby(Comics that were created/written in the 90's), I found the series itself trite. His inclusion into the DCU was nothing short of a bad joke. If he's different in the reboot great, but what I read of him, when he had his own series it was nothing special. As for Alan Moore's comment on Icon. It bears little on MY opinion of Icon. Actually that's a lie, it doesn't have any weight with me. Now onto the joke (the caption), it's a joke. Get over it. Fridgeraider mentioned that specific issue as an attempt to quell the comparison he has to Superman. It's a Verus's comic. Seriously, that's the worst way to attempt to quell a comparison. If you don't believe me go check out the "speshul-ness" we call the Battle Forum.
Get over your humor being tasteless and juvenile? Hey, already there. The whole "it's a joke" thing only works when it's actually funny. Who writes your material, Rush Limbaugh?? And I'll take Alan Moore's endorsement over yours any day of the week.
This book was just simply not for him my friend.
@TheCrowbar: Your comments as well as others in this thread on ICON are a bit offensive to me. People seldom ever point out the white superheroes who have similar powers to superman, but whenever it's a black hero there is always some guy who cannot wait to point that out. I mean if you didn't like his books or the art that's your prerogative, that was my issue with Milestone I could not get into the art and the stories were ok but they needed more time to expand. However the emphasis on him being a black male with a background and powers somewhat similar to Superman is almost racist to me, especially when there are so many other aliens who have the same template. Martian Manhunter, Supreme, Thor(He isn't of our world so to me that classifies him as an alien), half of the DC/Marvel universe is filled with hero's who were born on other planets but ended up on another planet with super strength and flight. Nobody ever says "Hey Martian Manhunter is DC's attempt at making a green superman?" Or "Hey Majestic is wildstorms attempt at making an over powered superman." Soon as it's a black guy like say Hancock , He get's trashed immediately just because his powers aren't unique and he's black.
Maybe or maybe not, but it Blue Marvel catches on and becomes popular for Marvel - you can be sure DC will try to duplicate that success and it will most likely be by using Icon.
@Postacrat: If you don't see people comparing other heroes against Superman, you're an idiot then or willfully ignorant of actual comparison debates. Apollo is a superman copy and people called it and creators agreed. Mr.Majestic is a superman copy. Captain Marvel is the oldest Superman copy(Or Superman is a copy of him not really sure as they both compete against eachother in the early 20th century.) Sentry is a Superman copy. Martian Manhunter was used as a Superman substitute when the Justice League was first formed. No really:
During the character's initial few years as a member of the Justice League, he was often used as a substitute for Superman in stories (just as Green Arrow was, for Batman) as DC Comics were worried about using their flagship characters too often in Justice League stories because of fears of overexposure.
This argument has been used for white and black characters. If you haven't seen it then you're not looking at the debates when a comparison is proposed between the two.
Oh by the way, I'm offended you thought I was being racist. Very offended in fact.
I'm not an Idiot nor am I ignorant, I saw something that touched my nerve and I simply responded to it. I've been reading comics for over 24 years especially Superman, these characters who have similar powers have totally different characteristics from him. I'm well aware of people who compare the characters you have referenced to superman, I am the one who originally stated that fact in my comment. The only difference in what I actually said was it is seldom ever pointed out, what I should have said was it is seldom ever pointed out in a derogatory manner. The fact that these characters have powers and stories like superman is rarely used as a means to discredit them, until the character is black. People took shot's at Blue Marvel the same way, and for the same reason. My apologies for offending you, however I just felt your statements were a bit offensive. I also mentioned you were not the only one, you were just the one I replied to.
I'm not an Idiot nor am I ignorant, I saw something that touched my nerve and I simply responded to it. I've been reading comics for over 24 years especially Superman, these characters who have similar powers have totally different characteristics from him. I'm well aware of people who compare the characters you have referenced to superman, I am the one who originally stated that fact in my comment. The only difference in what I actually said was it is seldom ever pointed out, what I should have said was it is seldom ever pointed out in a derogatory manner. The fact that these characters have powers and stories like superman is rarely used as a means to discredit them, until the character is black. People took shot's at Blue Marvel the same way, and for the same reason. My apologies for offending you, however I just felt your statements were a bit offensive. I also mentioned you were not the only one, you were just the one I replied to.
The bold is completely untrue. Captain Marvel was criticized for it very often until DC actually brought the comparison into the story and made them rivals( of a sort)
Jim Lee was criticized for making such a Superman analogue with Mr. Majestic.
The 90's were rife with terrible Superman clones that are easily forgettable.
Edit: Icon is one of the terrible Superman clones. Just in case I haven't made that point clear.
I'm not an Idiot nor am I ignorant, I saw something that touched my nerve and I simply responded to it. I've been reading comics for over 24 years especially Superman, these characters who have similar powers have totally different characteristics from him. I'm well aware of people who compare the characters you have referenced to superman, I am the one who originally stated that fact in my comment. The only difference in what I actually said was it is seldom ever pointed out, what I should have said was it is seldom ever pointed out in a derogatory manner. The fact that these characters have powers and stories like superman is rarely used as a means to discredit them, until the character is black. People took shot's at Blue Marvel the same way, and for the same reason. My apologies for offending you, however I just felt your statements were a bit offensive. I also mentioned you were not the only one, you were just the one I replied to.
The bold is completely untrue. 1.Captain Marvel was criticized for it very often until DC actually brought the comparison into the story and made them rivals( of a sort) 2. Jim Lee was criticized for making such a Superman analogue with Mr. Majestic. 3.The 90's were rife with terrible Superman clones that are easily forgettable. Edit: Icon is one of the terrible Superman clones. Just in case I haven't made that point clear.
1. Rarely, Anybody who read the books clearly knew Captain Marvel was a little boy Billy Bateson who could become a magical being Shazaam, nothing at all like Superman just similar in basic power. He just got type cast for similarities between their basic powers, again I did say Seldom these things are pointed out. Also he's still never criticized in a derogatory way.
2. Another fan based criticism at best Mr Majestic is clearly a different kind of character, I more so hear a lot of good feed back about him. Again he just flies and has super strength at the base, and some people do point that out but they also point out how he can do so much more. His whole premise is nothing at all like Superman. He also is still never referred to in a derogatory way.
3. That may be the case and it's the opinion you are entitled to. I just hate the "Black" thing it bug's me. I don't care for Icon that much myself, I read his books and I liked his origin and his abilities but the book art and the story kind of killed it for me until they started crossing over to DC. Milestone's pencils sucked to me at the time.
1. The "Black" Attachment to it for starters. I mean there are plenty of reasons not to like milestone comic's, but to dislike them because you regard them as "black versions" of more of the same based off of basic template is derogatory. Granted because they are "Black" does not make them exempt from being bad comics, but I don't see enough critique in that area more than I see "Black" comments. I even recall another guy on comic vine referring to it as "Affirmative Action" for comics, what an asinine comment.
2. A good deal enough of it is, his basic template was an easy target for fan's and non-fan's of superman alike. His basic powers are similar to Superman's yes, but his personality is not. He was an attempt to create a character with great power like Superman who was not afraid to use it. His dealings with the wildcat's and him being a Kherubim High Lord, create a totally different experience when you read a book concerning him. Outside of his basic power set (because he has powers superman doesn't) he is nothing like Supes.
1. The "Black" Attachment to it for starters. I mean there are plenty of reasons not to like milestone comic's, but to dislike them because you regard them as "black versions" of more of the same based off of basic template is derogatory. Granted because they are "Black" does not make them exempt from being bad comics, but I don't see enough critique in that area more than I see "Black" comments. I even recall another guy on comic vine referring to it as "Affirmative Action" for comics, what an asinine comment.
2. A good deal enough of it is, his basic template was an easy target for fan's and non-fan's of superman alike. His basic powers are similar to Superman's yes, but his personality is not. He was an attempt to create a character with great power like Superman who was not afraid to use it. His dealings with the wildcat's and him being a Kherubim High Lord, create a totally different experience when you read a book concerning him. Outside of his basic power set (because he has powers superman doesn't) he is nothing like Supes.
3. I agree my friend.
1.) Is it derogatory to call Martian Manhunter, a green superman clone, or Apollo a gay superman clone or Mr. Majestic a grittier superman clone? And I didn't say I disliked Milestone Comics, just Icon. 2.) He was an attempt to make a grittier Superman. Hell Jim Lee even said so. Superman was in mind when Mr. Majestic was created.
1. The "Black" Attachment to it for starters. I mean there are plenty of reasons not to like milestone comic's, but to dislike them because you regard them as "black versions" of more of the same based off of basic template is derogatory. Granted because they are "Black" does not make them exempt from being bad comics, but I don't see enough critique in that area more than I see "Black" comments. I even recall another guy on comic vine referring to it as "Affirmative Action" for comics, what an asinine comment.
2. A good deal enough of it is, his basic template was an easy target for fan's and non-fan's of superman alike. His basic powers are similar to Superman's yes, but his personality is not. He was an attempt to create a character with great power like Superman who was not afraid to use it. His dealings with the wildcat's and him being a Kherubim High Lord, create a totally different experience when you read a book concerning him. Outside of his basic power set (because he has powers superman doesn't) he is nothing like Supes.
3. I agree my friend.
1.) Is it derogatory to call Martian Manhunter, a green superman clone, or Apollo a gay superman clone or Mr. Majestic a grittier superman clone? And I didn't say I disliked Milestone Comics, just Icon.2.) He was an attempt to make a grittier Superman. Hell Jim Lee even said so. Superman was in mind when Mr. Majestic was created.
No it wouldn't be because green people don't exist but if they did it would be derogatory. Calling someone a gay superman clone in a general sense no, but using it as a main basis to refer to an actual "Gay" character and then using it further as a means to discredit the existence of a character is derogatory. However it's irrelevant since these characters are never referred to in these ways anyway, but "Black Supermen" always are. Affirmative Action statements definitely rank as derogatory...
2. what I said was exactly what Jim Lee explained friend, my point is that he mainly used the Superman-like template as a basis for a completely different character. Superman was more of an example, like telling someone hey imagine superman kind of power with less restrictions. That is only the premise of his character, but when you get into Majestic you see he's nothing like Superman outside of some of his power set, and silhouettes.
@Postacrat: 1.) I haven't mentioned Affirmative Action, and the notion of Affirmative Action in a comic is hilariously stupid.
Martian Manhunter was often referred to as the Green Superman. Apollo as well is referred to as a Gay Superman. Why? Because that's their most differentiating feature. What's Icon's most differentiating feature compared to Superman? He's black, and therefore he's a Black Superman. See how that works. If you're offended by it, that sucks but that's how language works, there's not about to be a change because you feel saying Icon is a Black Superman is derogatory. It is no more derogatory than calling Apollo a Gay Superman or Manhunter a green Superman.
2.)
So you agree that Superman was the basis of Mr. Majestic?
1. just an example of derogatory statements I've encountered, I know you didn't say that.
2. I wasn't the only person that felt your comments were offensive and engaged you for them, why don't you just say you don't care who you offend? why should you care, it's not your race that's constantly being tread upon direct or indirectly. Besides the hero template comparison's to superman that you keep referencing are a non factor because they have no racial connotation and being gay is an Innate preference not a race. I am well versed in literature and English and I am well aware of how words should and should not be used in certain instances, especially about race. It's delicate, and regardless of rather you agree or not, your statements would have been completely plausible if they lacked the emphasis on him being black. I could understand most of the things you said but that "He's just a BLACK superman" part, struck out at me and not just with you again you were just the one I replied to.
3. Superman's kind of power yes, so in a sense yes.
4. I'm not trying to change the world, I saw something worth responding to so I responded. This was not meant to change anyone's mind or views. I just see that reference a lot, and It annoys me is all.
@Postacrat: 1.) Then it's irrelevant to this discussion. 2.) The fact that you're offended, I don't care about one little bit. The fact that you think you have a right to be offended by my words irks me. "It's not your race" comment suggests I have racially centered world view, which is again rather offensive. You want to change the language for a specific race, yours, so you don't feel offended. The majority doesn't bend to the minorities wishes in a free society. If you can come up with a clear reason why it should be changed other than "I find it offensive" I'd be more than willing to hear it, beyond that it's an issue used to illicit an emotional response and by that nature unreasonable.
How does the fact that gay isn't a race make it any less offensive to call Apollo, a gay superman, compared to calling Icon, a Black Superman? Again, no one here mentioned he's black, therefore he's a bad superman copy. He's a black superman, black being the largest and easily noticeable differentiation between him and Superman. Just as Green is the largest for Manhunter, Gay is the largest for Apollo, mentally unstable is the largest differentation between Superman and Sentry. It's categorization, not discrimination. The difference being no said, "he's Black therefore he can't be a good Superman copy", he's boring and a borderline asshole. When someone says "Oh he's just a Black Superman," it's suggesting the character is unoriginal and uninspiring.
1. It is relevant to me it does not have to be relevant to you. It was also used as an EXAMPLE of derogatory statements in regards to minorities on comic books, so to state my case it is relevant.
2. Like I said before just say you do not care who you offend. I personally didn't think I was being offensive by speaking out on a statement I felt was derogatory from a racial stand point , that still didn't stop me from considering your feeling towards what I may have said in my point of defense and apologizing if I may have offended you or anyone else. Yet you take a rather Callus and smug approach as if your gun rules, just because you feel like you have a knowledgeable aptitude for how society works. I said your comment was a bit offensive I never once called you a racist. I never "wished" for anything I simply pointed out a stickler that annoys me, I never said it had to change, I think I made that clear on # 4 of my last reply.......@Postacrat said:
4. I'm not trying to change the world, I saw something worth responding to so I responded. This was not meant to change anyone's mind or views. I just see that reference a lot, and It annoys me is all.
Like you say Majority does not have to bend to the minorities wishes in a free society, that does not mean the minority cannot stand up for the way they feel about it. Being none offensive has nothing to do with bending to anyones wishes.
4. Did I not point out how the Green and Gay statements could be considered Racist two replies ago? I did not say they were less offensive, I said they were offensive in different ways. This is a discussion of race not crayon colors and sexual preferences. Also If I may point out again those references to Martian Manhunter are rare at best, I hear more praise about him then discord. I am very aware of what the milestone books lacked, I'm black and didn't care that much for them. I just like to hear constructive criticism and I did hear that from you but it was foreshadowed by things I found offensive. but again.....
4. I'm not trying to change the world, I saw something worth responding to so I responded. This was not meant to change anyone's mind or views. I just see that reference a lot, and It annoys me is all.
@Postacrat: You know what, I think we're going in circles. I see your view and I understand your points. I just don't agree with the conclusion. This thread is specifically towards Icon's return. And I'm adamantly against it. Beyond that, I think we can only agree to disagree.
@TheCrowbar: I can live with that. it's always enjoyable for me to lock horns with another intellectual. In truth I very much see your points as well. We may not have found a common ground at the conclusion, but where we ended up was enough. I didn't care for milestone because of the art and boring story telling but I will say that if handled correctly Icon could be a much better character. He should be that more of a martial law kind of hero, you know the kind that means well but he goes beyond boundaries in his quest for justice. This would put him in a position to be a hero on one end and a villain/antihero on another. Those stories would have to be pretty good though, or else....flop city.
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