Iceman the Invincible?

#1 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio
I have seen the  battle threads stating that Bobby Drake could defeat most of Marvels powerhouses such as Hulk, Sentry, Firelord. Some have even stated that Iceman has the ability to take out powerhouses such as Superman and even contend with entire teams. Most of these fights begin and end with statements such as "Bobby freezes his blood" or "Iceman gets shattered but reforms".

To the right is the famous first picture that drove Iceman fans crazy. Now the point of this topic is to put into more clarity the limits of Iceman's limitless powers so that he does not become the new Storm (sorry Storm fans =( of Comicvine). Let it be known though that Iceman was the first mutant right behind Wolverine that I became interested in when I started reading comics so this is not a hate thread nor is the intention of this thread to smear his character rather to get a general idea on how Iceman is considered by the general comic population and see how perhaps his character could be improved.

I have seen weaknesses in Iceman that some ignore such as his inability to control Ice for more than 5 hours before becoming mentally exhausted and also when he is "shattered" it is extremeley taxing on his body and begins to impair his ability to control his powers. 

So what do Comicvine users think of the current Iceman? Is he being written well? Are his abilities as powerful and unchallengeable as some say?

 Freezing Legion
#2 Edited by SC (12709 posts) - - Show Bio

I find Mike Carey writes Iceman best. Iceman has somewhat organically matured with his powers, there is still room for improvement, but he is still powerful, and dangerous, as well as at the same time, not being too over the top. A few of the Children of the Vault could cut him down to size temporarily... but he could still come back and have some awesome moments. I think as far as a direction for the character to be written in, having him be this extremely powerful defensive character that can shatter, but reform, unless experiencing some sort of extreme attack, that disperses him, or some confinement. As opposed to psionically freezing people at will, and being powerful offensively in that sense. Its rare and most writers who write scenes like that don't really understand or seemly care about continuity or what will happen with the character when they need the next villain or hurdle. 

Suffice to say as well, for me, how iceman was written in Nation X one shot, needing the help of a telepath again, and still failing... and Second Coming was luke warn boarding on F ed up (F for err Fraction) 
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#3 Posted by Iron_Lad (315 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman can't die basically, you're right. You can evaporate him, liquefy him, do whatever you need to and he'll always be able to reconstitute himself back together into his physical ice form. Since he meets one of the prerequisites of being an "Omega-Level' mutant, specifically immortality, he is classified as such. I don't think he's classified that way because of his "extreme manipulation of ice",

#4 Posted by Green Skin (2932 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kallarkz said:
I have seen the  battle threads stating that Bobby Drake could defeat most of Marvels powerhouses such as Hulk, Sentry, Firelord. Some have even stated that Iceman has the ability to take out powerhouses such as Superman and even contend with entire teams. Most of these fights begin and end with statements such as "Bobby freezes his blood" or "Iceman gets shattered but reforms".

To the right is the famous first picture that drove Iceman fans crazy. Now the point of this topic is to put into more clarity the limits of Iceman's limitless powers so that he does not become the new Storm (sorry Storm fans =( of Comicvine). Let it be known though that Iceman was the first mutant right behind Wolverine that I became interested in when I started reading comics so this is not a hate thread nor is the intention of this thread to smear his character rather to get a general idea on how Iceman is considered by the general comic population and see how perhaps his character could be improved.

I have seen weaknesses in Iceman that some ignore such as his inability to control Ice for more than 5 hours before becoming mentally exhausted and also when he is "shattered" it is extremeley taxing on his body and begins to impair his ability to control his powers. 

So what do Comicvine users think of the current Iceman? Is he being written well? Are his abilities as powerful and unchallengeable as some say?

Writer inconsistency plays a big part in the confusion.  The other part is that as the character evolves and gains more master over his abilities he moves past some of his limitations.  For example I don't think the underlined section above holds true anymore.  It did at one point, but hes gotten better at reforming himself over the years.  At this point he can evaporate himself and recondense himself.  Not to mention that he can exist in a mist form, and solidify portions of his body while keeping the other portions mist.  After learning to do this kind of stuff reforming from being shattered is a lot easier for him. In the scan below he is shattered by the Hulk and quickly reforms despite the desert environment, and afterwards doesn't seem to suffer any impairment from it.
#5 Edited by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio
Although Iceman has learned to use his abilities in more refined ways he still has to have a limit on for how long he can manipulate ice. Even X-man tires. 

Are the above scans cannon?


Also contrary t popular belief it does seem possible that Iceman can be harmed and even burned while in his Ice Form. The nimrods burned him and forced his ice form to revert back into flesh just like what happens to Colossus when his metal form comes into contact with Vibranium. 
@SC said:     

I find Mike Carey writes Iceman best. Iceman has somewhat organically matured with his powers, there is still room for improvement, but he is still powerful, and dangerous, as well as at the same time, not being too over the top. A few of the Children of the Vault could cut him down to size temporarily... but he could still come back and have some awesome moments. I think as far as a direction for the character to be written in, having him be this extremely powerful defensive character that can shatter, but reform, unless experiencing some sort of extreme attack, that disperses him, or some confinement. As opposed to psionically freezing people at will, and being powerful offensively in that sense. Its rare and most writers who write scenes like that don't really understand or seemly care about continuity or what will happen with the character when they need the next villain or hurdle. 

Suffice to say as well, for me, how iceman was written in Nation X one shot, needing the help of a telepath again, and still failing... and Second Coming was luke warn boarding on F ed up (F for err Fraction) 

True. I think that was becoming to be one of his biggest problems. Writers simply not caring about continuity or future incursions that he would have with other villains. I would like for them to continue using him as a defensive character with powerful offensive abilities. Iceman is a great mutant and I wouldn't want to see him go into the hands of a man like Bendis and begin to challenge SS.
#6 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio
Speak of the devil:
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/blue-beetle-vs-iceman/612825/#19
   
#8 Posted by xerox_kitty (15762 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman has potential, but isn't experienced enough to be "invincible" in battle.  So he can be beaten plenty of times, but he'll still survive.  After all, even Bastion's Nimrods were able to burn him (which has never been explained how that was even possible, but it really did happen).

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#9 Posted by Mercy_ (92607 posts) - - Show Bio
@Kallarkz: It's not necessarily that he can defeat them, it's more like they can't defeat him. 

@xerox-kitty said:
Iceman has potential, but isn't experienced enough to be "invincible" in battle.  So he can be beaten plenty of times, but he'll still survive.  After all, even Bastion's Nimrods were able to burn him (which has never been explained how that was even possible, but it really did happen).
I think it had something to do with the Nimrods being able to scan DNA and discern weaknesses that way? It's been a while since I read Second Coming, so that could be inaccurate. 
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#10 Posted by SC (12709 posts) - - Show Bio
@Kallarkz:  Me too, less using the character as a plot device, and more writing to benefit and enrich the character would be ideal. Equal part consideration for powers, as well as personality as well as character growth! 

@The Dark Huntress:  That sounds about right. I remember they didn't really do a good job of explaining but presumably on top of that explanation, there will be types of plasma that may circumvent Bobby's powers for a bit. He needs to learn how to do a Rockslide. lulz. 
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#11 Posted by joshmightbe (24678 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman has the potential to be one of the most powerful characters in marvel that is if the lazy ass writers would focus on someone aside from wolverine for 5 seconds

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#12 Posted by SpaztikOne (95 posts) - - Show Bio

I think there are a few things to consider in this conversation (and in reading the previous posts, I didn't see anyone else mention them in the same manner I see them).
Confidence - Bobby has always seemed, to me anyways, lacking in confidence. Yes, he's grown over the years, but I think there are still times when he's not as confident as he could be. I believe the times we really see him cut loose with his powers are when he's really upset or others are driving for him. The first time we saw him convert to pure ice instead of applying a layer over him was because of someone else's manipulations of him. Other times he's had no time to consider how to apply his powers and the growth was made as a reaction rather than being proactive.
Immortality - I don't know that he actually is immortal/unable to die. We've seem him reform himself when he'd been damaged in ice form, but there has been no proof that if he was to loose a limb in human form he'd be able to ice up, regrow it and then return to human and have the limb be perfectly functioning.
Writer - I find that there are times he's got uumph, but others not, and it's because the writers keep mucking around with him.
Temperament - he's just not angry enough to be a major player. His life wasn't so dangerous that he had no choice but to take the next step (a la Storm), nor was he possessed by a cosmic entity that maxed his powers (see Jean and Rachel Grey).
I think of all the "Omega-Level" mutants, he's gotten the furthest most naturally. He's a reluctant warrior, not someone bloodthirsty enough to push himself, as he seems most grounded.
As Kallarkz mentioned, Bobby remains more defensive rather than offensive. he has the potential to be offensive - and what weapons he has in his arsenal! -  but I don't think it's necessary to have every major power be aggressive.  Now, that's not to say he can't be in alternate realities...
Just my two cents.

#13 Posted by Squares (4910 posts) - - Show Bio

He certainly has the potential to be somewhere near that powerful. Of note, however, is the fact that he's never really been able to really develop new aspects of his powers without outside help. Despite holding the raw potential nessecary to take down individuals like the Hulk, he's a bit of a slacker, not to mention relatively poor at working with people he doesn't know very well, and lacks the maturity and ingenuity to live up to his full abilities.

#14 Posted by Edamame (27983 posts) - - Show Bio

Regarding the Iceman vs. Nimrod Sentinels scene in Second Coming, I believe it was because the blast from that one Nimrod Sentinel was able to revert Iceman's ice form into human form.  Therefore, his human skin was burned, but once he went back into his ice form later on, the burns were healed. 

#15 Posted by Iron_Lad (315 posts) - - Show Bio

Just once, I'd really like the writers to explore Iceman's powers more in-depth and show us something that make us all go, "Wow! I didn't know Iceman could do that!" I think Iceman deserves it. Instead I think he's being neglected, because he just isn't all that interesting which is a shame.

#16 Posted by IKnowEverything (359 posts) - - Show Bio

i feel like he can be beaten though. Lots of characters can bust his ice form or melt him or whatever. I would bust him up and quickly put him into like an adamantium or adamantine or vibranium container. im sure such a container would be hard to find but this is comics, so thats totally possible. he wouldbt be killed, but he wouldnt be a threat ever again, right? imagine... Iceman defeated by very sturdy bucket. Now there is a comic book title.

#17 Posted by tbone1225 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

He could be that powerful. But he probably never will be. Iceman's problems are all in his head. OK, they're also in the fact that he's really never been written well. But they're also all in his head. That whole first batch of X-Men are pretty messed up mentally.

#18 Posted by Buckshot (18913 posts) - - Show Bio

On the reforming thing, I like the way it was shown recently (don't remember when exactly, but it was one of the more recent examples of him reforming, maybe the most recent) where it was said that like crystal, each piece of him contained the whole so he could rebuild from a single piece of ice. I like that a little more than him coming back from being vaporized like it's nothing. The vaporization thing has been firmly established though so it's not like it can be discarded, but I think I'd personally prefer if that was something that took more time or effort while the rebuilding from shards could be done quickly. That's all defense though. I think busting out absolute zero in a single panel like he did in UXM 541 was a long time coming.

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#19 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

Does he have a weakness to magic?

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