Unnecessary Deaths!!

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Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio

I know I'm probably one of several hundred people blogging about this now, so please bear with me.  

Did Johnny Storm really have to die?  He's probably my favorite FF member.  Did he really have to die?  Now, I don't know anything about the story other than he was saving Thing, Valeria and Franklin from the Negative Zone.  But why do comic book writers insist on killing off their characters?  It could have just been a moment of suspense, a close call, and he could have still escaped death.  

I feel the same way about Bruce Wayne.  I'm not thrilled about Batman, Inc. or Dick Grayson wearing the cowl.  Couldn't Bruce have had another narrow escape, and yet survived to protect Gotham? 
 
Anyway, feel free to voice your opinion on this.

#1 Posted by Green Skin (2918 posts) - - Show Bio

Since you don't know anything about the story maybe you should read it before passing judgment.   Character deaths make for good stories if done correctly.  Would you really want to read comics where no one ever died?

#2 Posted by Nova`Prime` (4165 posts) - - Show Bio

It is an unnecessary death because his death is the one that would affect the team the least. If they should have killed off any of the F4 it should have been either Reed (which is what it seemed like as they built towards the story) or Sue the true glue that holds the team together.

#3 Posted by KenTheProfile (402 posts) - - Show Bio

They would never kill Reed to many people would like that. it would have sucked but if should have been the Thing 
#4 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

 "WHY DOES MARVEL KILL ALL OF ITS GOOD CHARACTERS!?"
#5 Posted by War Killer (20292 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Lyja still in the N-Zone?

#6 Posted by PrinceIMC (5422 posts) - - Show Bio

I blame the Captain America movie. They wanna distance Chris Evans from Johnny Storm since he's gonna be Steve Rogers so they killed off Johnny. Okay not really.
#7 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@PrinceIMC said:
" I blame the Captain America movie. They wanna distance Chris Evans from Johnny Storm since he's gonna be Steve Rogers so they killed off Johnny. Okay not really. "
That actually kinda makes sense O_O
#8 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio

No it doesn't. Don't encourage him.

#9 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
"
 "WHY DOES MARVEL KILL ALL OF ITS GOOD CHARACTERS!?"
"
completely agree Johnny was the last one of them that should have died.
though if they killed Susan they would have been sexists.
If they killed The Thing they would have discriminatory to people of different skin color
and if they killed Reed they would have been the jock beating up the nerd
it sucks, that Marvel can't seem to make the right decision on anything important
#10 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:

" No it doesn't. Don't encourage him. "

Hey, this is the Quesada era, there's no logic behind any decision :P 
 
@hydrabob said:

"completely agree Johnny was the last one of them that should have died. though if they killed Susan they would have been sexists. If they killed The Thing they would have discriminatory to people of different skin color and if they killed Reed they would have been the jock beating up the nerd it sucks, that Marvel can't seem to make the right decision on anything important "

This is an interesting one. Ever since Women In Refrigerators I've found that comic companies rarely kill females because the second they do, they're accused of WIR, even if the general principles behind WIR aren't the facilitating factor behind the death.
#11 Posted by batmanary (790 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @iLLituracy said:

" No it doesn't. Don't encourage him. "

Hey, this is the Quesada era, there's no logic behind any decision :P 
 
@hydrabob said:

"completely agree Johnny was the last one of them that should have died. though if they killed Susan they would have been sexists. If they killed The Thing they would have discriminatory to people of different skin color and if they killed Reed they would have been the jock beating up the nerd it sucks, that Marvel can't seem to make the right decision on anything important "

This is an interesting one. Ever since Women In Refrigerators I've found that comic companies rarely kill females because the second they do, they're accused of WIR, even if the general principles behind WIR aren't the facilitating factor behind the death. "
interesting. My favorite WIR moment was when she showed up in Blackest Night...still IN the fridge. *yikes* o_O
#12 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @iLLituracy said:

" No it doesn't. Don't encourage him. "

Hey, this is the Quesada era, there's no logic behind any decision :P 
 
@hydrabob said:

"completely agree Johnny was the last one of them that should have died. though if they killed Susan they would have been sexists. If they killed The Thing they would have discriminatory to people of different skin color and if they killed Reed they would have been the jock beating up the nerd it sucks, that Marvel can't seem to make the right decision on anything important "

This is an interesting one. Ever since Women In Refrigerators I've found that comic companies rarely kill females because the second they do, they're accused of WIR, even if the general principles behind WIR aren't the facilitating factor behind the death. "
not completely familiar with WIR, i do know that it started because of Kyle Rayner's Girlfriend was killed, and i guess she was stuffed in a fridge.
#13 Posted by batman_is_god (1173 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wolverine0628 said:
"I know I'm probably one of several hundred people blogging about this now, so please bear with me.  Did Johnny Storm really have to die?  He's probably my favorite FF member.  Did he really have to die?  Now, I don't know anything about the story other than he was saving Thing, Valeria and Franklin from the Negative Zone.  But why do comic book writers insist on killing off their characters?  It could have just been a moment of suspense, a close call, and he could have still escaped death.  I feel the same way about Bruce Wayne.  I'm not thrilled about Batman, Inc. or Dick Grayson wearing the cowl.  Couldn't Bruce have had another narrow escape, and yet survived to protect Gotham?  Anyway, feel free to voice your opinion on this. "

Try to name a super hero that has not died. Writers are out of ideas, so they take the cheap way out nd kill characters off.
#14 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @iLLituracy said:

" No it doesn't. Don't encourage him. "

Hey, this is the Quesada era, there's no logic behind any decision :P 
 
@hydrabob said:

"completely agree Johnny was the last one of them that should have died. though if they killed Susan they would have been sexists. If they killed The Thing they would have discriminatory to people of different skin color and if they killed Reed they would have been the jock beating up the nerd it sucks, that Marvel can't seem to make the right decision on anything important "

This is an interesting one. Ever since Women In Refrigerators I've found that comic companies rarely kill females because the second they do, they're accused of WIR, even if the general principles behind WIR aren't the facilitating factor behind the death. "
not completely familiar with WIR, i do know that it started because of Kyle Rayner's Girlfriend was killed, and i guess she was stuffed in a fridge. "
Basically it's the anti-feminist idea that a female character is killed solely for story-purposes, in particular, to strengthen two male character's relationship/rivalry. For example, Alex DeWitt's death was basically just a way to have Kyle hate Major Force. She was killed solely because she was Kyle's gf. WIR applies here. However, WIR does not apply when the death is far more important than merely solidifying a conflict. For example, (though some would argue otherwise) Gwen Stacy's death is not WIR because Gwen herself is still the main focus of the story. Pete's consequent fight with the Goblin still matters less than the actual impact of Gwen's death. Pete doesn't try to kill Osborn every time he appears screaming "this is Gwen!", but at the same time Gwen is always treated with reverence and love by Pete. If that makes sense. Basically, if the only reason for the death is to have a hero hate a villain, it's WIR. If it was a storytelling necessity, or part of a character's arc, the death should not be considered WIR (though it still often is). Jean Grey's first death is probably the best example of a non-WIR female death. 
#15 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt:  ok just found a site that has plenty of terrible things that happen to females in comics, I'm sure that all of these aren't WIR but it is a pretty long list
 
All of Savage Dragon's girlfriends (dead)
Alysande Stuart (dead)
Amethyst (blinded, merged with Gemworld, destroyed in LSH; became a power-hungry witch in Book of Fate)
Apparition (one of her three bodies dead, soul bound to boyfriend)
Aquagirl (dead)
Arisia (dead)
Aurora (Multiple Personality Disorder, depowered)
Batgirl I (paralyzed)
Batwoman (dead)
Betty Banner (abused, changed into a harpy, multiple miscarriages, dead)
Mrs. Brian Banner, Bruce's mother (murdered by her abusive husband)
Black Canary I (dead)
Black Canary II (tortured, made infertile, depowered)
Blink (dead)
Bluebird (dead)
Buf from X-Man (crippled)
Candy Southern (dead)
Captain Marvel II/Photon (depowered, ceded code name to a male hero)
Carol Ferris/Star Sapphire (turned into a villain by the Zamarons, possessed by the Predator)
Celsius (insane, dead, called delusional liar)
Christine Helvin of Troublemakers (victim of date rape, discovered she could never have children because she was no longer human)
Courtney Ross (dead)
Crimson Fox (both sisters dead)
Dart (crippled)
Dawn Allen (dead)
Dawnstar (wings cut off, possessed by another persona)
Diamond Lil (kidnapped, experimented on by own government, developed benign breast tumor)
Domino (kidnapped, tortured)
Dove II (dead)
Dr. Midnight of Infinity, Inc. (dead)
Elasti-Girl (only original Doom Patroller to stay dead)
Electrocute (dead)
Elektra (the real one... dead)
Element Girl (dead)
Enchantress of Suicide Squad - originally a heroine (turned evil, insane, depowered?)
Firebelle (dead)
Firestar (powers were sterilizing her)
Frances Kane/Magenta (stalker complex)
Fury II (child kidnapped, husband killed twice, insane)
Gwen Stacy (dead)
Hawkwoman (depowered)
Hellcat (dead)
Huntress I (dead)
Huntress II (sexually abused)
Ice (dead)
Illyana Rasputin (kidnapped and raised by demons, aged, de-aged, dead)
Invisible Woman (miscarriage of second child)
Jade (lost natural powers)
Jarella (dead)
Jean DeWolff (dead)
Jean Loring Palmer ("nervous breakdown")
Jet of New Guardians (died in battle after contracting HIV)
Jocasta (deactivated - more than once)
Karen Page (addicted to drugs, made porn films, infected with HIV, dead)
Katma Tui (dead)
Kinetix (depowered twice, catatonic)
Kole (dead)
Lady Flash (evil, dead)
Lady Quark (dead)
Laurel Gand (dead)
Laurel Kent (revealed to be an evil robot, dead)
Linda Park (kidnapped, removed from history)
Looker (now a vampire)
Madelyn Pryor (clone, brood mare, demon queen, dead, brought back)
Mantis (child taken away, dead)
Marlo Chandler -- Rick Jones' wife (former prostitute, killed and brought back mindless; got better)
Marrina (insane, dead)
Mentalla of LSH (dead)
Mera (insane, child murdered)
Mirage of Team Titans (impregnated by rape)
Mockingbird (abducted and mind-manipulated into a relationship, dead)
Moira MacTaggert (diseased)
Ms. Marvel I/Warbird (mind-controlled, impregnated by rape, powers and memories stolen, cosmic-powered then depowered, alcoholic - SHEESH!)
Ms. Marvel II (became a monster in Fantastic Four, de-monstered but enslaved by Dr. Doom, depowered)
Mystek of JLTF (dead)
Namorita (revealed to be a clone, reverted to a more primal Atlantean form)
Negative Woman (depowered)
Nightshade (depowered)
Nightwind (dead)
Nova II/Frankie Raye (dead)
Phoenix I (evil-dead-who knows)
Power Girl (depowered, magically impregnated, made vulnerable to unprocessed natural materials... like sharp sticks)
Psylocke (eyes removed, eviscerated, depowered, mind-swapped)
Rachel Summers/Phoenix II (lobotomized)
Raven (sometimes evil, sometimes dead)
Red Guardian II (kidnapped and brainwashed into the love-slave of a super-villain)
Redwing of Team Titans (dead)
Revanche (dead)
Rogue (just plain messed up)
Roulette (dead)
Scarlet Witch (children 'die'/vanish/are lost because they are figments of her imagination)
Serpentine
Shrinking Violet (lost a leg in Giffen's Legion)
Shvaughn Erin (turned into a man)
Silver Sorceress (dead)
Snowbird (child and husband murdered, insane, dead)
Spider-Woman I (dead for a while, depowered)
Starfire (raped, tortured, enslaved; forced into marriage... twice)
Storm (depowered, repowered, periodically crazy to one degree or another)
Supergirl, pre-Crisis (dead)
Supergirl, PAD version (lost her invisibility and most of her shapeshifting)
SW6 Projectra (dead)
Tarot (dead, brought back w/life bound to an evil man)
Threnody (dead)
Tigra (devolved into cat-thing)
Triplicate Girl (one body killed, one presumed dead but revealed to be Glorith's pawn)
Wildcat II (dead)
Wolfsbane (locked in werewolf form for awhile, needs major therapy)
Wonder Girl I/Troia/Darkstar (identity and powers stripped from her multiple times)
Wonder Woman (killed, revived, but lost goddess powers)
Zatanna (powers severely limited)
 
I'm pretty sure that the list for terrible things that have happened to male characters is long too if not longer, was just surprised how many there were
#16 Posted by Green Skin (2918 posts) - - Show Bio
@batman_is_god said:
" @Wolverine0628 said:
"I know I'm probably one of several hundred people blogging about this now, so please bear with me.  Did Johnny Storm really have to die?  He's probably my favorite FF member.  Did he really have to die?  Now, I don't know anything about the story other than he was saving Thing, Valeria and Franklin from the Negative Zone.  But why do comic book writers insist on killing off their characters?  It could have just been a moment of suspense, a close call, and he could have still escaped death.  I feel the same way about Bruce Wayne.  I'm not thrilled about Batman, Inc. or Dick Grayson wearing the cowl.  Couldn't Bruce have had another narrow escape, and yet survived to protect Gotham?  Anyway, feel free to voice your opinion on this. "
Try to name a super hero that has not died. Writers are out of ideas, so they take the cheap way out nd kill characters off. "
Exactly!  It's easier to use a cheap gimmick than it is to write a quality story.  A fact Marvel writers know all to well.
#17 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob: I know, it's insane. Particularly in Alan Moore and Frank Miller books, pretty much every woman has either been raped or abused.
#18 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio
@batmanary:
Yeah, that was very creepy, and well done, I thought.
#19 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @hydrabob: I know, it's insane. Particularly in Alan Moore and Frank Miller books, pretty much every woman has either been raped or abused. "
the first one caught me off guard, All of Savage Dragon's GF have died, i kinda hope he only had two or one
#20 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @hydrabob: I know, it's insane. Particularly in Alan Moore and Frank Miller books, pretty much every woman has either been raped or abused. "
the first one caught me off guard, All of Savage Dragon's GF have died, i kinda hope he only had two or one "
Yeah, I've never read any SD, but that does seem a bit off.
#21 Posted by CellphoneGirl (18764 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
"
 "WHY DOES MARVEL KILL ALL OF ITS GOOD CHARACTERS!?"
"
 If they killed The Thing they would have discriminatory to people of different skin color 
That sounds really stupid, he's a white guy that has rock skin.
#22 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio
@batman_is_god:  
You're right.  It's kind of becoming the next "It's a clone!" or "It's a robot!" type of thing.
#23 Posted by biggkeem89 (1400 posts) - - Show Bio

 I actually cared about Johnny's death. It was the first one I actually cared for since Cap was assassinated. It was heartfelt.  and showed his strength as a character. Let's face it, Johnny really wasn't utilized too well. It was just about always reckless, wild, and brash Johnny. His "death" finally showed that he was much more than his outside appearance. I hadn't actually read the F4 in a while, but I picked up that issue, and it honestly brought a tear to my eye    

#24 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio

@Green Skin said:

"Since you don't know anything about the story maybe you should read it before passing judgment.   Character deaths make for good stories if done correctly.  Would you really want to read comics where no one ever died? "


 

You're right!  I guess it depends on the character they kill.
#25 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@xxCellPhoneGirlxx said:
"That sounds really stupid, he's a white guy that has rock skin. "
I know he is, but look at everyone on the Fantastic Four they are all white and they look white, Ben was white but, now he stands out because of his different physical appearance, and getting rid of him would make the team way to mayonnaise for today's culture.
#26 Posted by CellphoneGirl (18764 posts) - - Show Bio
@biggkeem89: I felt the same way about Johnny's death. 
 
@hydrabob: I see what you mean, but if they did they could just get She Hulk to replace him :P
#27 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@xxCellPhoneGirlxx said:
"@hydrabob: I see what you mean, but if they did they could just get She Hulk to replace him :P "
still see Johnny as the only one they could get away without angering non comic book fans, and by killing him they made a lot of (or maybe just me) pretty angry, kinda hate the idea of them bringing in a replacement that quickly doesn't really seem right.
#28 Posted by CellphoneGirl (18764 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob: Since the series will be called Fantastic Three, i don't see them bringing in a replacement any time soon :P lol
#29 Posted by Gambit1024 (9843 posts) - - Show Bio

Instead of killing Johnny off, they should have just developed his character. I mean, let's face it: Johnny has always been the cool dude who dated all the girls and loved his cars. Not one writer I can think of actually sat down and said "I'm gonna make Johnny Storm matter." I think by killing him off, they lost a HUGE opportunity for incredible stories. If Reed had died, you could see the kids struggle without a daddy (as if they haven't struggled anyway), Namor try to swoop in on Sue, Doom's thoughts, etc. If it were Sue, the team would fall apart, Reed would have to actually be a father, and he'd probably go to war with Namor. Had it been Ben, the whole Marvel U would've cried. With Johnny gone, the only real story that could come off of it is a heartfelt speech by Spider-Man to Franklin about how much it sucks to loose an Uncle.  
 
Bottom line; writers were scared to improve the character, so by killing him off, you think about how much he actually meant to you. Only now am I realizing the only reason I kept reading FF was because of the comic relief Johnny brought. It's a shame his flame had to burn out so soon. 

#30 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@xxCellPhoneGirlxx said:
" @hydrabob: Since the series will be called Fantastic Three, i don't see them bringing in a replacement any time soon :P lol "
not sure i'm doing this right but, nln
#31 Posted by CellphoneGirl (18764 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob: nln?
#32 Posted by Darkmount1 (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe it's time comic creators established a comic book death clause-"An important character deemed to be killed off must be returned to life in a span of two years max."
#33 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio
@xxCellPhoneGirlxx said:
" @hydrabob: nln? "
yeah i thought i did it wrong
#34 Edited by SC (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

Unnecessary what now? This is comics, everything is unnecessary but we don't want them to grind to a halt do we? Stories that have a character death in them, can attract people to the story and add an extra layer of drama, in a pretty well used and effective way. The way it affects other characters can be used for a bunch of different new tories, even how it effects the character when they return eventually. They can attract people to the character as well, they think about the character more, they talk about the character more. The character returns, and under a good writer can capitalize on this.  Oh and deaths still build huge publicity and sales. Anything that does that will be used frequently despite how unnatural it may be compared to real life (Arguably more natural until they spring up again)
 
I don't think its a question of necessary vs unnecessary, its about good deaths vs bad deaths. Also the reasons behind the deaths as well and their validity. Then how its used subsequently. The logic behind Nightcrawler's death to be was poor, his execution perfect, the aftermath, mostly subpar. Also Nightcrawler's death felt bigger to me among comic people, but mainstream? Johnny's death seems quite big really. Marvel really pushed it. Oh, and sorry a favorite of yours died. 

Moderator
#35 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC:
Yeah, good deaths vs. bad deaths makes more sense.  I just wish it wouldn't be such big characters.

#36 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio
@Darkmount1 said:
"Maybe it's time comic creators established a comic book death clause-"An important character deemed to be killed off must be returned to life in a span of two years max." "

Yeah, that would be perfect!
#37 Posted by Silver Knight75 (1131 posts) - - Show Bio

   I haven't read many Marvel Comics lately because I don't think they have any idea what the fans want or  what they are doing and just killing characters off.

#38 Posted by SC (13396 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:
" Instead of killing Johnny off, they should have just developed his character. I mean, let's face it: Johnny has always been the cool dude who dated all the girls and loved his cars. Not one writer I can think of actually sat down and said "I'm gonna make Johnny Storm matter." I think by killing him off, they lost a HUGE opportunity for incredible stories. If Reed had died, you could see the kids struggle without a daddy (as if they haven't struggled anyway), Namor try to swoop in on Sue, Doom's thoughts, etc. If it were Sue, the team would fall apart, Reed would have to actually be a father, and he'd probably go to war with Namor. Had it been Ben, the whole Marvel U would've cried. With Johnny gone, the only real story that could come off of it is a heartfelt speech by Spider-Man to Franklin about how much it sucks to loose an Uncle.   Bottom line; writers were scared to improve the character, so by killing him off, you think about how much he actually meant to you. Only now am I realizing the only reason I kept reading FF was because of the comic relief Johnny brought. It's a shame his flame had to burn out so soon.  "
 
I think its worth noting, that Fantastic Four is like the anti Invincible, hell, its not even near X-Men and Avengers when it comes to development. Fantastic Four is like Superman. Its foundations are built on them both being iconic. They are going to develop really slowly and tend to regress often, if the status quo does change. They are grounded by the family dynamic, the relationships that are fixed. To an extent how many characters are on their team, and lots more things. Its no coincidence that most of the greatest FF stories center on them involved with other characters. Galactus trilogy etc 
 
I feel your thoughts are somewhat contradictory in nature as well. They have huge opportunities either way, generally hinged on how creative they are, and this could trigger a lot of growth with Johnny's character, and stories that could be told by his death, aren't just limited to a Spider-man speech. I agree with your overall sentiment though and he seems like your favorite FF4 character so that sucks. I wanted Reed to die, could have let Johnny step up to be leader and demonstrate that Sue is actually suppose to be über smart herself. 
Moderator
#39 Posted by SC (13396 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wolverine0628 said:
"@SC: Yeah, good deaths vs. bad deaths makes more sense.  I just wish it wouldn't be such big characters."
 
Its funny, because your opinions seem to echo mine, and I am usually arguing against the comic fans, that wish death was always permanent. I think with big characters it can work. I mean, many times, revived characters come back with extra fans, and as a fan of some smaller characters, I would be happy, if I knew, they would die, and definitely would be revived. One of my favorite characters Thor, is in the best position of his character life after dying. 
Moderator
#40 Posted by Gambit1024 (9843 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @Gambit1024 said:
" Instead of killing Johnny off, they should have just developed his character. I mean, let's face it: Johnny has always been the cool dude who dated all the girls and loved his cars. Not one writer I can think of actually sat down and said "I'm gonna make Johnny Storm matter." I think by killing him off, they lost a HUGE opportunity for incredible stories. If Reed had died, you could see the kids struggle without a daddy (as if they haven't struggled anyway), Namor try to swoop in on Sue, Doom's thoughts, etc. If it were Sue, the team would fall apart, Reed would have to actually be a father, and he'd probably go to war with Namor. Had it been Ben, the whole Marvel U would've cried. With Johnny gone, the only real story that could come off of it is a heartfelt speech by Spider-Man to Franklin about how much it sucks to loose an Uncle.   Bottom line; writers were scared to improve the character, so by killing him off, you think about how much he actually meant to you. Only now am I realizing the only reason I kept reading FF was because of the comic relief Johnny brought. It's a shame his flame had to burn out so soon.  "
 I think its worth noting, that Fantastic Four is like the anti Invincible, hell, its not even near X-Men and Avengers when it comes to development. Fantastic Four is like Superman. Its foundations are built on them both being iconic. They are going to develop really slowly and tend to regress often, if the status quo does change. They are grounded by the family dynamic, the relationships that are fixed. To an extent how many characters are on their team, and lots more things. Its no coincidence that most of the greatest FF stories center on them involved with other characters. Galactus trilogy etc  I feel your thoughts are somewhat contradictory in nature as well. They have huge opportunities either way, generally hinged on how creative they are, and this could trigger a lot of growth with Johnny's character, and stories that could be told by his death, aren't just limited to a Spider-man speech. I agree with your overall sentiment though and he seems like your favorite FF4 character so that sucks. I wanted Reed to die, could have let Johnny step up to be leader and demonstrate that Sue is actually suppose to be über smart herself.  "
My apologies. Death seems to scatter my thoughts, so the way I wrote it is a little different on how I said it in my head, lol. What I meant was, yeah, you're gonna have a story either way, but by killing off Johnny, they missed an opportunity to write  "the story of the decade" or so to speak. I mean, I don't think I'm the only one who would've read a story where Reed went to war with Namor over Sue's death (just an example, but you get the idea). I could be wrong and they could be writing the greatest story now as we speak (or in this case... type), but we'll just have to wait and see. Johnny is my favorite FF character and it does suck, but hey, he's the only one on the team who hasn't died, so it was bound to happen sometime. It'd be pretty cool to see Johnny step up and be the leader though. I don't think Ben would take orders from him pretty well though, lol
#41 Posted by SC (13396 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024:  Oh no, thats perfectly alright. Tis a good thing really. When Black Bolt died, I took an oath of silence for a week, and sello taped a fork to my head, we all do unusual things when our favorites die. Oh, and I agree, I think, I thought Hickman was building up for Reed to die. Valerie, Sue, Johnny would have all benefited greatly, and others potentially too. Your example is good too. As soon as Marvel revealed his death and with the whole media thing, I felt kind of cynical, the angle worked. Torch is one of those characters that is actually in the general conscious of the mainstream. More so than many actual characters in Marvel who are actually more important than him. This is a great way to get some publicity without actually upsetting the overall Marvel status quo too much.  
 
Have you read Fantastic Four the End? I love that Johnny is the Avengers leader.  (its not a big spoiler or anything, it picks up there)
Moderator
#42 Posted by Gambit1024 (9843 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: And I thought lighting myself on fire in memory of the Torch was weird 0_o 
 
When you put it like that, Johnny's death did make sense. Do I approve? No, because I'm a bratty Torch fanboy =P. All things aside, I hope Marvel knows what they're doing and Johnny's comeback (cause we all know it's coming) won't be some bull$hit story (glances at Steve Rogers).  
 
I've never read Fantastic Four: The End. Is it worth the buy?
#43 Posted by SC (13396 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024:  Hmmn, I think so. It was decent enough. Lots of cool big moments, and fun. Had an interesting premise and didn't involve some characters as much as I thought would feature or be involved. I don't want to spoiler anything, but maybe later if you start a thread for it, I can throw some light spoilers up there or heavy if thats more helpful. I liked it more than Marvel The End. 
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#44 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @Wolverine0628 said:
"@SC: Yeah, good deaths vs. bad deaths makes more sense.  I just wish it wouldn't be such big characters."
 Its funny, because your opinions seem to echo mine, and I am usually arguing against the comic fans, that wish death was always permanent. I think with big characters it can work. I mean, many times, revived characters come back with extra fans, and as a fan of some smaller characters, I would be happy, if I knew, they would die, and definitely would be revived. One of my favorite characters Thor, is in the best position of his character life after dying.  "

Yeah.  As long as the big characters come back at some point, I guess I'm okay with that.
#45 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to say that, out of the four I would've liked to have seen Reed be the one that died. Johnny was my favorite. Everything about the "Fantastic" Four that was well fantastic was, to me, because of Johnny. I can honestly say that I will have to continue reading FF now because I want to see how Johnny's death impacts the rest of the team as well as the Marvel Universe. 
 
And as for the whole Alex Dewitt death. It actually did serve a purpose. It was organized by Sinestro so that Kyle would bring out his full power and use it to not only defeat Major Force but also realize just how much good he could do in the world by actually using the new powers he was given. It also shows you just how much she meant to him. And she was brought back in Blackest Night to show the one thing he fears most in life...losing another loved one because of the power fo being a GL.

#46 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

#47 Posted by mewmdude77 (960 posts) - - Show Bio
 @Nova`Prime` said:
" It is an unnecessary death because his death is the one that would affect the team the least. If they should have killed off any of the F4 it should have been either Reed (which is what it seemed like as they built towards the story) or Sue the true glue that holds the team together. "
It wasn't unnecessary, because it shows Johnny is a more mature character and it makes him more serious instead of being just a comic relief character. His death effected everyone as it shows in the new issue. Everyone comes to mourn him and they mourn for 30 whole days!!  If Reed died( I wish he had though, I hate Reed) then too much of an impact would have been made and everything in the MU would fall even more to crap since Reed was on of the most important geniuses. If the Thing had died, then that would screw up everyone emotionally and with the Thing's example of pulling through adversity and hatred, everyone would give up. If Sue had died, Reed would have went into a suicidal rage against Namor, and might of gotten himself and Namor killed, not to mention the millions who would be effected by the devastating effects of a Namor's army trying to kill all the humans on Earth. 
As much as I don't like Johnny dying myself, It was the way it had to go.
#48 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio
@mewmdude77:
You're right.  If someone had to die, it had to be Johnny.  I'm not a big Reed fan either, and I've never really liked Namor, but I guess if Namor attacked Earth that could be.... well, bad.
#49 Posted by mewmdude77 (960 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wolverine0628: Namor attacking= end of the world! I haven't really ever liked Reed, because he always bottled his emotions and my distaste for him was confirmed by Marvel Zombies. Namor is ok, maybe a little too stalkery. I always like the rest of the Fantastic Four though. Johnny's death makes me sad since he is my favorite Fantastic Four member, but it is needed. 
#50 Posted by Wolverine0628 (369 posts) - - Show Bio
@mewmdude77:
Johnny was my favorite too, but I guess they couldn't have killed off anyone else.   I haven't read Marvel Zombies; I just think Reed is kind of boring.

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