its been argued on here many times that Thor is one of the most powerful Marvel characters, someone with huge speed, strength, a wide arrange of powers, in fact someone who is the Marvel equivalent of Superman in many ways. However when he comes up against the Hulk he more often than not seems to end up being a punch bag. I know this hasn't always been the case, but generally he doesn't fare well. Why do people think this is and if Thor didn't hold back should he win?

PS, yes I know Thor v Hulk battles have been done to death, but this is more a genuine attempt to explore why Marvel chooses to allow Hulk to get on top in many battles with a theoretically all round faster and more powerful opponent....

Thor loses to Hulk due to jobbing. Hulk has to keep his "The strongest there is" title, so writers let him beat Thor up. Stan Lee, Thor and Hulk's creator, has said Thor is stronger than Hulk, and meant for it to be that way when he made Thor.

Because Thor usually holds back, and Hulk is stronger physically.....but Thor has a better power output.

In ideal to-the-death battle, Thor should really use Godblast to easily get rid of Hulk.

Thor gets humiliated because the writers make him all brawn and no brain.

Which is stupid really, Thor isn't an idiot.

IIRC Thor holds back because he was raised in a noble fashion in which he has to fight on equal footing with the opponent in respect of them.

If you need scans ask @Thundergodswrath

@wolverine08:

When was that?

Or just look up the Thor vs Iron Man fight, and note the part where he says "I'm not holding back"

And moved to the Hulk forum. Not a battle.

@thedarklordpandamonium: I can't get you a link because I'm on my phone, but just google "Stan Lee Thor Stronger than Hulk". There are a couple of articles and a video with Stan Lee talking about it.

you guys are still living in the 80s. hulk beats thor.

I thought he said he created Thor to make someone more powerful than the Hulk not necessarily stronger

@sufferthorn: that could work too

Yep This

Hulk has only actually defeated Thor maybe once or twice in the comics. Many of their battles end in a draw thanks to something interrupting their fight.

The out of comic reason I would say is due to Hulk being more popular. i think it is because Hulk is easier to relate too and Thor can come across as out of date and corny. Writers have admitted they have trouble understanding him compared to the Hulk. Also, since Thor is Marvel's Superman and a god while the Hulk is originally a mortal human it is part of that desire to surpass the gods and prove humans are the ultimate life form in the universe. If you look at their fights in the beginning Thor was the superior thanks to fighting skill if not in strength. By the eighties Thor needed Mjolnir to fight evenly. The Hulk was generally portrayed as next to impossible to hurt thanks to his invulnerability. Once the healing factor became a major theme the fights were still draws but in the minds of people Hulk could not be defeated thanks to this. Modern days Hulk's healing factor is so high it is almost a joke.

Another large reason is whether or not Thor is portrayed as a competent fighter. In fights where he is portrayed as one he tends to have the advantage. In fights where he is a mere brawler who doesn't bother to doge he is humiliated. It is the same with Hercules. If you review the fights where Hercules bothers to use his fighting skills against the Hulk compare to the ones where he does not he generally fares better in the fight than the Hulk. The Hulk can only last because he is just that tough.

The Hulk vs animated feature showed Wolverine doing well because he bothered to remembered how to fight. Thor did poorly in that feature because if you notice his fighting strategy was running into the Hulk's fist repeatedly. First he laid there on the steps for about ten blows. Then he allowed the Hulk to break his wrist. Then he constantly charged at the Hulk without trying anything else. The second fight Thor remembered someone how to dodge so he did marginally better. Ultimate Avengers was about the same. Hulk: Let the Battle Begin also portrayed Thor as an idiot.

The in-comic reason is Thor holds back out of a sense of honor and wanting to test himself. It would be too easy and perhaps unfair to unleash his full lighting might against a creature with no defense from such an attack. Anyone can win that way. Thor also usually tries not to kill the Hulk. If you notice in most of their fights Thor does not use his other powers except maybe one or two lightning bolts. Whenever he does use his other powers he tends to dominate.

1. Hulk is also one of the most powerful Marvel characters. Since Day One.
2. Though some of their fights are more serious than others generally speaking Thor doesnt hold back against Hulk and vice versa.
3. Thor doesnt have "huge speed" at least in terms of combat and isnt substantially faster than Hulk.
4. Its not really true that "Hulk usually beats Thor".
5. Unless you define being more powerful only as having more powers The idea that Thor is more powerful is very debatable at the least.

That said there does seem to have been a change in recent years. Marvel used to try and do fights that made everyone "feel good" about the outcome and now they dont really care so much. As part of this they seemed to be reluctant to say who was stronger out of Thor and the Hulk.

Nowadays 9 out of 10 times Hulk will look at least a bit stronger. I would theorise that that seems to have steamrolled into a situation where more people are reading and writing stories (both in comics and cartoons, movies) where Hulk is Marvel's premier strongman (sometimes by a lot) and in comicbook fights that counts for a lot. Certainly more than on the Battle forum of this site.

Still a lot of their recent fights havent been clean wins but situations where Hulk smacked Thor around with some kind of mitigating circumstance involved.

From everything written and said by Stan inside and outside the comics I think its quite clear that Stan intended for Hulk to be the stronger of the two. Theres a debate between myself and a poster called SC where we went into this pretty in depth. Basically i think the "pro-Thor" crowd have really miscontrued Stan's words on this subject to make it look like he intended for Thor to be stronger than the Hulk when thats not the case. I may do a blog post on this one day since it comes up soooo often.

@seekquaze said:

Hulk has only actually defeated Thor maybe once or twice in the comics. Many of their battles end in a draw thanks to something interrupting their fight.

The out of comic reason I would say is due to Hulk being more popular. i think it is because Hulk is easier to relate too and Thor can come across as out of date and corny. Writers have admitted they have trouble understanding him compared to the Hulk. Also, since Thor is Marvel's Superman and a god while the Hulk is originally a mortal human it is part of that desire to surpass the gods and prove humans are the ultimate life form in the universe. If you look at their fights in the beginning Thor was the superior thanks to fighting skill if not in strength. By the eighties Thor needed Mjolnir to fight evenly. The Hulk was generally portrayed as next to impossible to hurt thanks to his invulnerability. Once the healing factor became a major theme the fights were still draws but in the minds of people Hulk could not be defeated thanks to this. Modern days Hulk's healing factor is so high it is almost a joke.

I dont think writers have trouble understanding him but i do think a lot of writers havent really seen the appeal. That may change now that Marvel seem to be retooling him as a kind of mix between Hercules and Wolverine. I think the idea that "Thor is Marvel's Superman" is a very lazy comparison, and also a very contentious statement in itself.

While modern Hulk has a crazy healing factor I dont think the healing factor has really been a major theme in any of their fights. Its never really beeen referenced off the top of my head at any rate.

Another large reason is whether or not Thor is portrayed as a competent fighter. In fights where he is portrayed as one he tends to have the advantage. In fights where he is a mere brawler who doesn't bother to doge he is humiliated. It is the same with Hercules. If you review the fights where Hercules bothers to use his fighting skills against the Hulk compare to the ones where he does not he generally fares better in the fight than the Hulk. The Hulk can only last because he is just that tough.

Hulk and Herc have had what - 5 fights? I cant recall any encounters where Herc did better than the Hulk.

1. The first Lee/Kirby? fight. Probably the best for Hercules. He definitely had a large skill edge. Still the fight comes off pretty evenly.
2. Several fights against the Mindless Hulk. I think herc did OK but for the most part this was Hulk vs Hercules and several others at the same time.
3. Mind Controlled Merged Hulk vs Herc by PAD. Theres not much too it but Herc comes off as a bit of a joke here really.
4. Half strength Mortal Hulk vs Heroes reborn era Hulk by PAD. Herc got horribly crushed.
5. Flashback to the Champions vs Hulk. Thinking that Hulk is threatening civilians Herc pounds Hulk in the stomach while Hulk has both arms occupied holding up a car containing a pregnant woman over his head. Even so handicapped, in this brief encounter Hulk comes off at least as well.
6. Mindless Hulk flashback fight by Pak. Hulk looked much, much stronger than Herc. Herc may have gotten a temporary advantage due to the randomness of a column exploding into Hulk's eyes but the fight was interrupted and it would be a brave man who would say the fight was going his way.
7. World War Hulk vs Herc and others by Pak. This ones been talked about to death with all its asterisks but it hardly shows Herc coming out of the fight better than Hulk either.

The Hulk vs animated feature showed Wolverine doing well because he bothered to remembered how to fight. Thor did poorly in that feature because if you notice his fighting strategy was running into the Hulk's fist repeatedly. First he laid there on the steps for about ten blows. Then he allowed the Hulk to break his wrist. Then he constantly charged at the Hulk without trying anything else. The second fight Thor remembered someone how to dodge so he did marginally better. Ultimate Avengers was about the same. Hulk: Let the Battle Begin also portrayed Thor as an idiot.

The in-comic reason is Thor holds back out of a sense of honor and wanting to test himself. It would be too easy and perhaps unfair to unleash his full lighting might against a creature with no defense from such an attack. Anyone can win that way. Thor also usually tries not to kill the Hulk. If you notice in most of their fights Thor does not use his other powers except maybe one or two lightning bolts. Whenever he does use his other powers he tends to dominate.

I dont think thats the in comic reason. Thats one possible in comic reason but an equally valid in comic reason is Hulk is just that strong and tough.

Thor has unleashed his lightning on Hulk several times. Only once did it result in a KO. Generally they were shown as fighting pretty evenly as usual. While the idea that Thor would easily win if he didn't hold back is a hugely popular "meme" (and to be fair a couple of stories have suggested something like that) its again very debatable.

I thought I recalled in one or two interviews writers commenting on how Thor was in some ways so different from other Marvel heroes they had trouble writing him. Maybe it was what you say. It has been a while. I think appeal is a major issue. Unlike most marvel heroes Thor does not have any major personality issues.

And I didn't mean Thor was literally Marvel's version of Superman. The OP referred to him as such and and I was in a hurry so I thought it conveyed the main point. In the MU, when the going gets tough the hero the other heroes call upon is either Thor or the Hulk. Thor is a godlike character with a cape, vast powers, etc.

These were the two fights I was thinking about. The first one Hercules was horrible overpowered, but because he bothered to remember his fighting skills he did better than he would have if he tried to slug it out like he normally does. The second fight is more debatable, but Pak seemed to try to show Hercules's fighting skills though I admit the fight was all too brief. But if we agree that in both cases the Hulk had a significant strength advantage over Hercules and his fighting skills help make up for it one wonders how Herc would fare against another incarnation of the Hulk that he is more even with.

I would say it was both. I remember in some of the early fights Thor tended to regard fighting the Hulk more as a sporting challenge. He very much didn't want to kill the Hulk. A point of Hulk Annual 2001 Thor seemed to be trying to make is he holds back his full power. IIRC, wasn't it only in Hulk #300 and the time Thor was supposedly in Warriors Madness Thor stated outright he was trying to kill the Hulk?

In a pure physical fight I agree the Hulk is a match for Thor. It is the unknown degree to which Thor brings his other powers into a fight that I meant to be questionable. Thor has shown he can greatly vary how powerful his energy attacks are, distance from target, how many at once, etc. How much damage the Hulk can take is another question. You are right that in the comics themselves the healing factor has never been brought up in a fight between the two. But it has become such an important factor to any battle the Hulk is in that on battle boards at least it is a major factor. Of course, what it takes to hurt, ko, or otherwise defeat the Hulk depends on incarnation, rage level, and the writer. I agree it is very debatable whether or not Thor could win if he was out for blood and in a right state of mind. Just like it is debatable whether or not Hulk could hold his ground against a hurricane or how long he could last.

Because Thor forgets to use abilities such as the wind of a thousand worlds, the God Blast or the sort of attacks he reserves for cosmic beings and skyfathers. If both characters went all out, Thor would come out on top IMO.

which it ridiculous really, they make him seem stupid, either he holds back and loses...or they are dead. There is no middle ground? He has little control over his powers that he can't knock someone out, it's either a useless tap or ripping their head off?

Because writers underestimate Thor's abilities and write him like a stupid brawler.Most of the times he tries to use just brute force while he has a pretty big amount of powers he can uses but he doesn't.

He doesn't use the wind of a thousand worlds often enough on tough foes now does he? And that attack was powerful enough to make Glory scream in pain.

@lvenger: Wind of thousand worlds is a hard power to control as a out of control attack can cause massive collateral damage, he tried once as Odin Force Thor against Surtur and it was said if it went out of control it could destroy entire asgard. Its at the end of the day a mystically powered super hurricane. Its understandable that power is rarely used.

@killemall: A fair point and that's why in an in character fight, Thor wouldn't use it. I was more or less referring to an all out fight ie Hulk and Thor both not holding back. If Thor were to use that attack then it would be lights out for Hulk IMO.

This question was asked in wrong way, since Thor has more wins over Hulk than opposite. Thor even killed Hulk in future that is cannon for them as much, as Age of Ultron is cannon for all people from 616. Thor also KOd Nul, which is enough to tell who is more powerfull, considering how big boost Hulk had in that battle. If someone don't belive that "..." means KO in Fraction's comics, then he should read Odin vs Galactus where one of them (Galan IIRC) also said "..." when was KOd. That is the way Fraction is showing that someone is KOd. Hulk won only by buring Thor and in Hulk:LTBB. But bringing H:LTBB is just silly considering that Thor already allowed him to stay down and didn't want to kill him. Ergo, ONLY clear win that Hulk has, is one where Thor showed him MERCY. Thor can and already did finish Hulk with one, simple lightning. I don't see how after that and KOing Nul it can even be debated.
Not, unless someone is biased IMO.

Said by Hulk fan who can't see that Thor one-shotted Hulk with lightning when he didn't want to brawl with him anymore. Hulk is nothing to Thor's power, just a traning. That is why Thor never uses his powers against him. Not because he likes to brawl. Hulk isn't the strongest. I'm not even going to show how crazy this statement is whne we bring Thanos, Classic Drax or Destroyer (considering how he crushed Hulk) to the table.

Hulk won with Thor two times, once he needed Thor's pitty to be able to win. Thor won at least 6 times with Hulk. But, yeah, feel free to say the same thing over and over again.

Hulk doesn't have better strength feats than Thor. Period.

His enemies? He never won with wet Namor, Thor one-shotted him. Besides Mindless Hulk, I don't recall him winning with Wonder Man, while I remember Wonder Man kicking Rulk's @$$, while Rulk > Savage Hulk. I also remember WM fith with Hulk, when Hulk couldn't win with him. So maybe Abomination? Or Iron Man? Abo - one-shotted by Thor. Iron Man - similar with magic lightning and hammer punch.

Hulk isn't in the same level with Thor. Not when Thor wants to put him down.

Time to set things straight.

Overall, in every sense of the word, Hulk and Thor are equals in power.

Thor didn't KO Nul-Hulk, but merely BFR'ed him and collapsed and was then taken to Asgard to be healed while Nul-Hulk continued his rampage unfazed.

And I guess Thor unleashing the power of winds from a thousand worlds inside Glory would hurt! A no kidding/duh moment there! If Hulk would go World-Breaker and unleash a burst of power, it'd have the same result. The Asgardian Destroyer didn't best Hulk, for in fact he done just as well against it as Thor had done, considering Thor's only beaten it by either BFR or defeating its possessor (when not wielding the OdinForce or such). Thanos has stated avoding a confrontation with the Hulk, comparing him to the might of the Power Gem and that of the enraged Champion who wielded it. And just so you know, Professor Hulk knocked a Power Gem wielding Drax on his ass more than twice!

And it's time to set aside that lie that Thor holds back. Let's be honest, when these two evenly matched powerhouses collide, they don't pull any punches. However, both don't wish to destroy the planet either, so they're not going to the extreme either. Hulk can survive anything Thor can dish out and vice versa, including a God Blast.

It should also be taken into circumstance that when Thor does best beings who a way more powerful than him, there's usually a major plot-device. When he used the God Blast on Galactus, for example, the World-Eater was very weak and had been battling Ego for a very long amount of time. When he did the same to Ymir and Surtur, he was also at a distance away as the two battled each other. When he killed Cul he had Odin's enchanted armor and the Odinsword. When he killed Bor, he possessed the OdinForce and Bor was weakened/impaired due to his unexpected resurrection/awakening. If you want to bring up the Celestials, then it should be noted that Thor wasn't a threat and was considered less than nothing to them.

And the biggest point, one that most ignore, is that Mjolnir does the majority of Thor's work for him. Without it, he would not be able to fly nor redirect or channel these blasts at powerful enemies. Besides, does anyone think Hulk is going to allow Thor the chance and the time to power up a God Blast? Not at all.

Bottom line.

Hulk and Thor are equals.

The only real difference is that Thor has more powers/abilities due to Mjolnir.

But to state that that makes him more powerful is extremely debatable at best.

It's time to end this stupid conflict/argument of who's more powerful/strongest.

It all boils down to favoritism between both parties.

I favor the Hulk, but I like Thor as well.

They make better allies than enemies.

Let's get over this and move onward!

Indeed he does.But most of the times when he uses any of his powers he doesn't have a strategy,he just brawls and that is one of the reasons why he loses.And most of the times Marvel just write him as a jobber.

@greenscar1990:

1.No, they aren't. Thor won with more powerfull people, did more impresive things, has more powers and has powerfull weapon under his full contro. And Hulk doesn't have more impresive strength feats.

2.Thor KOd Nul. Here Odin headbutted Galactus:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111117590/3080585-8316048462-Odin%2B.jpg

they both were KOd for period of time, Galactus also has bubble with "..." in it. So it proves that Nul was KOd. Even if You want to argue about that, "..." for sure doesn't prove that Nul wasn't KOd.

3.WB Hulk never survived planet level energy projectino attack, ergo he can't survive Thor's best attacks.

4.Drax wasn't really fighting and Prof didn't KO him. With PG he can't be KOd, yet Thor was able to stalemate in serious battle with him and in another situation even took PG from him.

5.Thor holds back and we know this already thanks to their fight in Hulk's annual. When Thor didn't have a time to test his strength, he just one-shotted Hulk with magic lightning. Thor's weather powers allow him to even create storms that overpowers planet busting beams, so it isn't too suprising for me. IF Thor wouldn't hold back against Hulk, he would drain his energy, KO him with lightning or took his soul,before they would even start a serious battle.

6.Thor without Mjolnir killed Durok with God Blast and it didn't had to be charged... He also controls weather without his hammer... He didn't have it when he KOd Gorr with lightning when he was young.

I just attribute it to CIS (on Thor's behalf) or even WIS in some cases.

THANK YOU!!! IM SICK OF HEARING THIS HULK IS STROGEST THERE IS -.- NO ...JUST STOPIT imo even juggy is stronger

Dumb writing. Hulk should have no chance against a god.

I have a hunch it is down to a number of things:

• Thor has a farm's worth of abilities thanks to his hammer, while Hulk has to made do with two (basically), so while Thor might be more powerful overall, Hulk can (or perhaps should) be allowed to be stronger than the Thunder God (who isn't the God of Strength)
• As others have mentioned, Thor more often than not taking the beatings because he is trying to talk sense into Hulk, whom he (as far as I know) considers a close if dangerous ally. (He even mentioned he would have stood with Hulk during WWH had he been there).
• The catchphrase; "Strongest there is." is something Hulk has a monopoly on and Marvel has pretty much decided it's actually true, regardless of the original ideas behind the creation of Thor.
• It should be noted that Thor is armed with an extremely powerful weapon and rarely goes into a fight without it, while Hulk for most parts only has his hands. So you could ask if Thor would really win a hand to hand fight with Hulk.,

All that said, in a fight where Thor really wanted to get rid of Hulk, he could do that... but only because of his hammer.

@theacidskull: sorry hulk couldn't do it to juggy as wwh savage hulk aint doing ish... and Thors strength feats are simply greater than hulks ..howerver people fail to forget thst no matter how strong u are u CANNOT beat the hulk brawling period... he will keep coming back

I love the Hulk so much but feel if these two were to go full on at each other it could go either way. And decisively at that . What I mean is I could envision a scenario where Hulk floors Thor with a massive blow and proceeds to pound him into paste, leaving him utterly unconscious. And I would not consider that PIS . Thor has been knocked out plenty. I can envision a scenario where Thor evades a Hulk knock out blow and shatters both both knee caps with Mjolnir a literately take half Hulks face and skull off in seconds with a monster blow from his hammer. Hulk would have to heal from that. I mean depending on which incarnation of Hulk he would either be up in seconds or sleep an heal so its very possible.. For one to beat the other on any giving day

@xenomorphzombie:

Do you even know how many "Gods" there are in the Marvel universe? Do you even know how weak some of them actually are? Barely more powerful than some humans the only thing that separates them is immortality. Your logic of "Hulk should have no chance against a god" is ludicrous. I guess Galactus doesn't have a chance against Ares and his 70 ton category because he is a god.

Hulk Is Strongest

Because HUlk is more popular and Thor knows Hulk is a good guy but dumb so he takes it easy on him.

( + )

Never liked the whole "i will never use my full power on mortals" pis. That doesn't mean you have to lose. Like said before, either you're losing, or the city is destroyed in Thor's case. There is no mid ground.

Hercules wins. :)

...

With apologies to reasonable folk like seekquaze - dont any of you guys get sick of this whole "OMG Thor SHOULD win but Marvellz makez him forgett his powerz and hold him back!!!!! blah blah..." It sometimes stuns me just how many people parrot this stuff. "Wind of a 1000 worlds"? Sure, thats a standard Thor ability -_-

Thor does his best against Hulk. Sometimes he has done his best to kill Hulk. Usually their fights end in stalemates. Occasionally something more interesting happens. Hulk has won a couple and Thor has one at least once though there are some debatable circumstances around all of these i suppose and their a bunch of fights that people will disagree over whether they are even part of continuity altogether. Hulk has also racked up a few "wins" recently that clearly dont truly count due to Hulk being on the same side but mind-controlled etc. But 9/10 these guys do their best against each other and come out even. Fact.

And if you really wanted some writer to have Thor pull out the "Wind of a Galahadrian Moon" or something well guess what. Hulk would probably straight tank it. And you would be even more upset. Because Hulk and Thor are two super powerful, pretty evenly matched guys and thats what the vast majority of comic book writers recognise - not that Hulk grabbed energy or went WB in one issue or Thor drained the radiation out of some rock in the 60s. At the end of the day thats just fanboy fluff that 9/10 comic book readers couldnt care less about.

To be brief because i've dealt with this many, many times before - if you look at Stan's words about the idea for Thor in context its pretty clear that he didnt intend him to be stronger than Hulk. In a longer, less ambiguous piece he talks about how he had the strongest guy in the Hulk and the smartest guy in Reed Richards etc and so there really seemed to be nowhere else to go. And thus the idea was to make Thor a God. Unless you think Thor was supposed to be smarter than Reed Richards then i think its clear that the idea to make Thor a God was a solution to the idea of making a new, unique character rather than a way to make a new character stronger/smarter than a previous character (which he could have just done).