That's because Thor makes the exact mistake I speak of, and tries to punch Hulk out in every encounter he has with him. If Thor was someone who regularly made use of his vast versatility, Hulk really has no answer to what Thor could bring.

Hulk's not going to be beating a Thor who makes use of his massive versatility advantage instead of fighting like a dumbass trying to slug it out with him.

So if Thor wasn't Thor he could beat Hulk...hmm...

That's the problem on here, people aren't debating comic characters vs comic characters most of the time. They are debating a made up character with all the abilities of a comic character vs another made up character with all the abilities of another comic character.

@green_skaar: I'm not following your line of logic here. Me noting that if Thor is using his ludicrous versatility advantage over Hulk that he has absolutely no reason to lose isn't tantamount to me debating a made up character. That's just pointing out what he can do if things like morals are thrown out of a window in a fight between him and Hulk.

@green_skaar: No, that's not what @wolverine08 is saying. He's saying something along the lines that if Thor used the wind of a thousand worlds, Godblasts, Anti Force or Mjolnir's other versatile energy attacks, Hulk wouldn't take a majority. Also

Dumbass?!!? You mean fighting like a proud Asgardian warrior who likes to push and test himself in all areas? Characters have special abilities, yes, but they also have personality/drives/style/character. You can't have one w/o the other.

Granted, you can call Thor's approach to combating Hulk to be in character due to how he was raised as an Asgardian, but I do personally find it dumb considering how he can beat Hulk fairly handily if he did utilize said versatility, but that's when something like morals will play a factor in.

@lvenger: Apparently you don't. Because i doubt those 2 esteemed experts on Hulk would share the same opinion as you, so you haven't learned much from them.

Oh boy the same old argument... I know what Thor and Superman should do, they should come here and ask their fanboys on how to fight certain characters, just stay 10 miles up in the air and shoot lazers and godblast all day, because that makes for a badass fight, the only real way to determine who is stronger... pathetic. The reason why i hate Superman like characters and their fanboys.

@wolverine08:

Where is the guarantee that any of what you said would work on the Hulk? Can you guarantee that Godblast, anti-force, wind of a thousand words, etc.. would defeat the strongest versions of Hulk?

You said "...if Thor was someone who regularly made use of his vast versatility..." well he's not, especially against Hulk. So playing this ifs and buts game is kind of pointless. They've fought several times, it's not a mystery how it goes down.

Plus they're not taking into fact that speed and versatility doesn't guarantee a win against a powerful foe. I mean, other than BFR, I don't see any other possible way of defeating powerhouses like Hulk or Doomsday in direct, all-out, physical altercations which is their forte unless its beings of similar power who can mange to stalemate them (which is rare; that's why most of Hulk vs. Thor fights end in a draw).

But, like I said, when someone like Hulk beats someone of Superman/Thor/Martian Manhunter/Silver Surfer class or runs through a team or several teams of heroes... they want to cry PIS, CIS, blame the writer, or something similar. Sounds very hypocritical to me. It's on panel, its cannon, it happened. All I can say to those people is deal with it and move on.

Have a nice day. :)

Oh so if Thor started doing all sorts of out of character things he'd win? Thanks for clearing that up.

If Thor met Hulk in a fight with no plot, or morals holding him back, not seeing why that ludicrous versatility advantage wouldn't get put front and center. That's why we do have battles on the battle forums with no morals anyway.

You're proving my point. Actual comic characters are rarely debated on the battle forums, rather made up characters with all the abilities of a comic character but none of the actual CHARACTER.

Tell it like it is, dude. That's what I like about you. Makes me proud to call you a friend and fellow comic fan. :)

For the record, those two esteemed Hulk experts agree with me that Superman can beat most versions of Hulk. We only disagree on the Green Scar/World Breaker Hulk and even then that version of Hulk has no answer to the speed edge. I've learnt plenty from my reasonable discussions with them, more than I ever could from you that I'm certain of.

Are you seriously calling me a fanboy? Pahahaha, thanks for the chuckle mate, you've shown me your true colours there. Every one of my points has been supported by actual feats and logical reasoning coupled with knowledge of the Hulk's limitations in correlation to the DC characters. Let me give you a very blunt newsflash about the true nature of the battle forums, there's no writer influence here. If Superman has speed blitzed his foes with feats to back it up, he can clearly do it in this battle against the Hulk. If he has feats of decimating Imperiex Probes capable of beating most of Earth's heroes with his versatility, those feats stand as reliable. Hulk may be stronger but only slightly and Superman and the other characters are more powerful and varied in their powers. A word to the wise, if you're going to call me out as a fanboy, don't try and sound like one yourself and don't use such weak, biased points. It doesn't help your case nor does it make you look good. There are several characters I prefer Superman to who he can be beaten by but Hulk is not one of them.

@green_skaar No problems, glad I could help clarify things.

@green_skaar: Not really, that's why things like in character and morals off are often considered in fights. People noting what a character would most likely do without morals holding them back isn't tantamount to debating a made up character. It's tantamount to considering what a character would do when he's coming at you with no moral obligations.

@raynorj@greenscar1990 If you two are what count as true comic book fans, then it would be a disgrace to the comic book industry. Try not to make unsubstantiated claims like that too often hmm? Gang up on me all you want but I'm just telling it like it is.

Yikes, maybe I should elucidate better on my original post so posters can understand my thoughts. In an in character fight between Thor and Savage Hulk, both combatants have a good chance of winning since Thor forgos his considerable versatility due to his personality and morals, and fights Hulk in a fist fight type Hulk style which favors Hulk due to his superior strength. Now, in a morals off fight, Thor is going to be dropping the more esoteric and dangerous abilities he has, and he's going to win. Every single time. Pretty handily at that too.

*sigh* You think you aren't debating up a made up character when you remove their CHARACTER and morality!?!? I guess comic folks are just stats and special abilities! Never mind morality, character, personality, those just get in the way of battles!

And i agree that most versions of Hulk would lose to those characters and i said the biggest and only problem is speed. But like i said you haven't learn from them, you don't have to learn anything from me you should learn from them as they know a lot more but apparently none of that has rubbed off.

I was talking in general it was not directed at you. Did i ever hid my "true colors"? I headbutted with you long ago and i made myself clear that i do not pull my punches nor do i sugar coat anything i tell things like they are but because i called you out before you just tried to play me of as a random Hulk fanboy that doesn't know what he talks until you learned more about me than you changed your song and said i wasn't like green_skaar whatever that means to you. What does annoy me as you playing off as a Hulk fan when you are not which would be no problem whatsoever if you didn't try to play off as one.

You see the problem is you say Superman will always beat Hulk, that's the problem. Neither Superman nor Thor will always beat the Hulk in every circumstance or incarnation. The difference between me and you is that i know Hulk can lose to a lot of characters i know he can even lose to street level characters in certain conditions, but i never guarantee things because that is not the nature of the comics or characters, there are no guarantees.

And for the record i did not call you a fanboy, but i am straight up calling you out on being a fake Hulk fan and i couldn't care less for any excuse you have like he is my 7th fav character, yea yea. I don't pretend to be who i am not and i don't pretend to like characters i don't. I am done.

You are better than this. You have no problem with calling writers STUPID all the time, yet you claim others aren't comic fans or a disgrace. Come on.

Taking away morals doesn't equate to debating a made up character. It's just considering what would happen got into a situation where they threw aside morals.

@

Right on the money. Superman & Thor can beat Hulk, but he can also beat them. The only incarnations I believe that Thor & Superman can overcome most of the time is Fixit. In regards to the more normal power level incarnations, like Savage, it could go either way. Green Scar/Green King & World-Breaker are a different story. It's a vice-versa scenario for the most part. Regardless of versatility of abilities or speed, all three are powerful and are of the same power class. They're the elite, the big guns, the kind of heroes you call together when guys like Thanos or Darkseid and their armies show up to invade the earth.

And I agree that if saying I don't like Waid's writing or the fact that I and many others know that Hulk can beat guys like Superman, Thor, etc. makes comic readers like us a disgrace... then it's apparent that there's a lot of us, wouldn't you say?

Threw aside their morals? Unless that's part of their character, they would be out of character. Character w/o character is just stats/abilities.

And you should know better than to misinterpret the context of what I've been saying. I was being reasonable at first making clear logical points and trying to clarify my position with feats and reasoning but I was rebuked with immature responses and claims of fanboyism along with claims that trying to rage against this plausible logic counts as being a true comic book fan. Now tell me who's better than who and who's being unreasonable here? Don't jump to incorrect conclusions on this matter since that's exactly what you've done.

I was trying to tell you that you are a good person and those sorts of accusations are beneath you. Obviously my point was missed. I'm out of this thread, it's getting way out of hand.

Most of times, that supposed versatility is also referred as BFR.

Well, I guess this is an example of what happens when you say Thor beats Hulk :D

In my opinion Hulk should be beaten by a lot of people if they are smart enough

Throwing Hulk to space is easy if he's not fighting. If he's not fighting then he's just around 1 ton of weight.

A fighting Hulk, however, has far greater force than 1 ton.

Removing an object from the battlefield is not easy when that object is hitting back.

Hulk isn't easy to handle since he not a 1 ton sack of patatoes, he's an energy powerhouse!

Hulk is going to use his power to keep the fight where it suits his style.

Thor in Oakenshield

@lvenger: You know,those are actually good points (and logical ones) as to why characters like Superman,Wonder Woman,MM,etc can beat Hulk. I would almost agree. The versatility and speed argument is very solid. However,I think that you might be underestimating Hulk in terms of the Doomsday thing. I hope I am not the one underestimating Doomsday,though. And the reason the Doomsday situation is different is because of his adaptability and superior durability (if he,you know,adapts to the situation after his death).

However,in terms of Hulk fighting the likes of Wonder Woman,I think that Hulk might win via overpowering her. I also think that he may be able to beat Superman in a fight because of his strength,durability,and healing factor that arguably makes Wolverine jealous (but the versatility and speed argument actually changes my mind,but not really by a majority or landslide).

However,I don't think I can agree with the 'Thor having street leveler speed',if I read you correctly.

Anyway,you guys have brought up great points.

I mean,personally,it's obvious that most versions of Hulk would lose to the likes of Thor,Superman,Wonder Woman,etc but I think that,if he gets to a certain point,that he can beat Superman,but only due to overpowering him if his abilities get amped up to a certain level,do you know what I mean? I think I might be a bit vague. I mean,I don't even think that it would take his strongest version (if he has one),but I only think that it's because he may be able to overpower him at a certain stage. I mean,at his base (which is....Savage Hulk? I think) he's still able to hurt and take on the likes of Superman level characters,but Superman would ultimately win because,at his base and at levels near base-level,Superman is superior in terms of....everything (save for healing factor,but that wouldn't play a huge role for base-level hulk,or any version of the Hulk near base level) and,as you said,speed and versatility play a huge role.

Summary:

Those are great points you brought up,but I think that Hulk (at a certain level) can beat the likes of Wonder Woman,and Superman (however,this will be a LOT harder). I mean,given his feats and physicals,I think that Hulk can beat Superman if he gets to a certain stage (and I believe that,given his powerset and abilities,that he can definitely survive that long). In fact,I think that Savage Hulk (is that his base level?) can go toe-to-toe with Superman,but,because of your points,Superman will win because of the versatility/speed argument against Savage Hulk and,to be frank,most versions of The Hulk (like Grey Hulk,Professor Hulk,etc).

I mean,I think that Hulk is definitely stronger than Superman (and Thor,Wonder Woman,etc) BUT only if he reaches that level. At base or anywhere near (which also means,many versions of the Hulk),Superman and other characters like him (like Captain Marvel or Thor) can overpower him due to being more versatile and because they are too fast for him (and,most versions of the Hulk would be physically overwhelmed by the likes of Thor and Supes).

Ugh,that's an atrocious summary......sorry if you have to read all of that. I commend you if you do.

@peppeyhare: Ssssssshhhh don't tell the battle debaters.

How can you actually determine this with so many incarnations of either? Superman ranges from GA/Byrne up to Lobdell/SA and Hulk ranges from Lee/Grey up to Worldbreaker/Green Skar. The difference between most of them is staggering.

Silver Surfer, the Phoenix force, basically any prominent cosmic entity.

But,you know,I think that there are A LOT more factors in a fight. Yes,physicals are important,but as said,there are other factors involved.

For example,whether you think Hulk is stronger than Superman/Thor/Hyperion/who-the-f*ck-ever or vice versa,they still have enough strength to overcome each other's durability. For example,Blue Marvel is not stronger than Hyperion (clearly. Few people are),but I think that it can be argued that Blue Marvel can win due to other factors that people are leaving out. For example,Ms Marvel is not as strong as Blue Marvel (I think). Clearly. She is not in his strength range,but other factors should be involved. For example,she's arguably more agile and faster in the air and,due to the fact that she can absorb various types of energy,I think that there should be other factors that are involved.

What I mean is (to be more clear,since that example didn't do s*it),if a character is stronger than another or can overpower them,it shouldn't count as the only factor in a fight (especially if the gap in terms of physical abilities isn't overwhelming). For example,Red Hulk is not stronger than Hulk,but:

• He can beat him via energy absorbing and manipulating abilties
• He is arguably more skilled in combat than the Hulk....arguably.
• Even though Hulk is stronger,Red Hulk still has the physicals to go toe-to-toe with the Hulk. Meaning that he can dish out punches and can take them.

Does that make sense? I hope it does.....

Anyway,Hulk should NOT be able to beat characters that are too versatile or fast.

He should not be able to beat Skyfather level characters.

He should not be able to beat omnipotent characters (or omnipotent level characters).

He shouldn't beat Celestial level characters (in my opinion).

This.

But, like I said, versatility and speed don't mean a victory or an definite edge on the Hulk. I'm especially surprised that people are forgetting how fast Hulk is. He's caught Silver Surfer, who was flying full speed, a great distance away. There's many other examples of extreme Hulk speed feats long before Waid started writing the character.

And it also seems that some are also downgrading Hulk's healing factor and his durability a bit. He's extremely durable, just as much as Doomsday (as it usual takes heavy hitters of the same class/caliber or above to actually hurt him, or weapons made from adamantium & virbranium, and powerful mystical beings/weapons of the highest order to pierce through his flesh), adapts just as quickly without having to die numerous times. But, whatever, I'm not going to waste my time on here.

I would say Thor and Beta Ray Bill are the line in the sand. Above them are gods and cosmic beings. Short of that, Hulk is strongest one there is.

Thor

@wolverine08: It's an example of what happens when you say Thor and guys like him ALWAYS beat the Hulk. I would expect you to react in similar way if i told you Hulk ALWAYS will beat Wolverine, because he wont.

Savage Hulk should probably sweep Wolverine after James gets a few good shots in. Any incarnation after Grey Hulk, and Wolverine has started to chew off a little more than he can chew. Besides that, my point wasn't really that Hulk can't beat Thor(Savage can do so in an in character fight), I was just pointing out that in a morals off fight, Thor has too many powers at his disposal that he'll be pulling out for Hulk to properly counter.

But there is no reason to properly counter if you can soak in all the damage and i repeat IF. And some incarnations of Hulk should be able to pull that off. People always think Thor will win because he beat guys like Glory, Gorr or the Serpent etc... but they forget he did those things through tricks and outside amps. The same tricks that wouldn't work on Hulk.

@green_skaar: I'll take full responsibility for that comment and for the thread getting out of hand but I was trying to show a reasonable argument for why people think the speed and versatility of DC powerhouses is too much for Hulk to handle. And then look what happened. This is probably what I should have said before.

Of course! He could beat Galactus with the power of song! Together with the cast from Glee!

Wow, what happened to my thread! It just turned into another Superman v Hulk slagging match!

Well, this Superman AND Hulk fan thinks under the right circumstances Hulk CAN beat Superman (and THOR) and obviously vice versa. Of course he can , Wolverine has beaten Hulk before, or at least stalemated him despite being armed with nothing more than claws, an adamantium skeleton (and healing factor) and being able to lift only a mirco fraction of what Hulk can lift....therefore it is not beyond the realms of possibility that someone with incalculable strength, an awesome healing factor and insane durability could, in the right circumstances beat Superman or Thor, super speed or not...

..but people are entitled to their views, the only thing I wish on here was that people were more respectful of each other, this is comic book stuff after all, its fiction, anything can and usually does happen in the comic book world!!

Yep.

Hulk's power aint no joke.

And low-balling him to make someone else look good isn't honest debate. I'd be interesed in seeing people not base an argument on actually getting the definition of a characters' abilties instead of just downplaying them.

Agree with all the people saying Thor. He needs to club Hulk's ugly green head right off his shoulders and into the sun. People will ask,"why didn't you ever do that before?" Thor:"I was holding back this whole time!"

@vampire_batman: Nope, but that was highly intelligent, thanks for the input.

@raynorj:

Yes I agree, some intelligent input would be nice for a change rather than all this Hulk trolling!!

and to all my fellow DC fans who say Hulk is too slow to lay a finger on the top tier DC heroes, I give you Mongul....basically a brute with no super-speed to speak of, but has tagged most of the Justice Leaguers at some point in the past....

This is a good question. Hopefully we get another epic Hulk run soon, where he can test his limits a little more.