Is the Hulk too Powerful?

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#1 Posted by The Stegman (25960 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been reading a lot of recent Marvel Stuff lately and a lot of Hulk comics and i've noticed that he is really quite freakin' powerful, i mean although he is gamma radiated and anger incarnate, he is, after all still human, should he be able to do things that seem impossible for human physiology? like surviving in space or lifting mountains? i was particularly annoyed while reading ''World War Hulk" where he defeated basically all the main heroes in Marvel with ease, such as the Fantastic Four, Avengers, and some of the X Men. It seems that no matter what the challenge is, Hulk can over come it by simply getting "madder" do you guys think he is too strong? should there perhaps be a limit on his power? 
 

#2 Posted by LONGTIME (923 posts) - - Show Bio

Well he did get humbled by Zeus recently.

#3 Posted by Valtot (4486 posts) - - Show Bio

nah hes a good power level for his character
#4 Posted by Cezar_TheScribe (2615 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people continually ask if a character is "too powerful?"  
 
It's annoying. It's a comic book. Many things in them you will never see in reality. 
 
Just get used to it.

#5 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38789 posts) - - Show Bio

No. He's okay

#6 Posted by cpt_linger (2902 posts) - - Show Bio

Too powerful for who? lol

#7 Posted by Matezoide2 (15999 posts) - - Show Bio

not by a long shot

#8 Posted by Rick475069 (174 posts) - - Show Bio
@LONGTIME: That showing was really pathetic, but the hulk deserved it. He helped Zeus and then he turned on him.
#9 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm quite alright with Hulk's strength and toughness, but,based on his powers and their source, I don't think he should necessarily be able to survive unaided in space.
#10 Posted by HeraldOfGalactus (61 posts) - - Show Bio

Plenty of people can beat him.
#11 Posted by theicon (1795 posts) - - Show Bio

nope he's good

#12 Posted by Wise Son (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

He's fine. 

#13 Posted by Darkerman (504 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope.
#14 Posted by Darren (69 posts) - - Show Bio

I want WWH level to be his norm.

#15 Posted by Dracade102 (8126 posts) - - Show Bio
@Darkerman said:
" Nope. "
@Wise Son said:
" He's fine.  "
@theicon said:
" nope he's good "
@HeraldOfGalactus said:
" Plenty of people can beat him. "
@TheGoldenOne said:
" No. He's okay "
@Valtot said:
" nah hes a good power level for his character "
@TheGoldenOne said:
" No. He's okay "
All QFT
#16 Posted by King Saturn (225038 posts) - - Show Bio
Hulk is not Too Powerful... his level is just right for the type of character he is
Online
#17 Posted by Red_Lightning_Alpha (64 posts) - - Show Bio

he's not to powerful read incredible hulks 622 to find one of the reasons why

#18 Posted by Jacory44Williams (87 posts) - - Show Bio

looks like we're all in agreemnt, he's fine just the way he is
#19 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio

One time he almost beat a lot of people, other times, Dazzler, Captain America, and Doc Sampson knocked him out. If anything, I think he needs a massive power upgrade. Like above Galactus in power. That way any 'fans' of his that want Grep Pak fired because Hulk didn't beat Zeus can stop crying cause Hulk will be able to one shot Galaxies. 

Moderator
#20 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" One time he almost beat a lot of people, other times, Dazzler, Captain America, and Doc Sampson knocked him out. If anything, I think he needs a massive power upgrade. Like above Galactus in power. That way any 'fans' of his that want Grep Pak fired because Hulk didn't beat Zeus can stop crying cause Hulk will be able to one shot Galaxies.  "
Then Ed Norton will show up and do Hulk right. Right before being kicked off the Avengers.
#21 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar said:
" @SC said:
" One time he almost beat a lot of people, other times, Dazzler, Captain America, and Doc Sampson knocked him out. If anything, I think he needs a massive power upgrade. Like above Galactus in power. That way any 'fans' of his that want Grep Pak fired because Hulk didn't beat Zeus can stop crying cause Hulk will be able to one shot Galaxies.  "
Then Ed Norton will show up and do some Charlie Sheen. Right before being kicked in the stomach by Batman. "
 
Ouch, painful cross over memories you have unlocked there with your last statement. 
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#22 Posted by kmiller9959 (34 posts) - - Show Bio

His almost limitless power is what makes him interesting.
#23 Posted by Video_Martian (5562 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cezar_TheScribe said:
"

Why do people continually ask if a character is "too powerful?"  
 
It's annoying. It's a comic book. Many things in them you will never see in reality. 
 
Just get used to it.

"
THANK YOU
#24 Posted by Mumbles (843 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk smash thread.....sure this has already been said

#25 Posted by brc2000 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio

The only way a character is "too powerful", is if there are no threats that he could possibly face that would believably be too much for said character. Luckily, the Marvel Universe has no shortage of such threats.

#26 Posted by Cezar_TheScribe (2615 posts) - - Show Bio
@mr.obvious said:
" @Cezar_TheScribe said:
"

Why do people continually ask if a character is "too powerful?"  
 
It's annoying. It's a comic book. Many things in them you will never see in reality. 
 
Just get used to it.

"
THANK YOU "

You're welcome. 
 
 

 
#27 Posted by DarkBishop (1 posts) - - Show Bio

He's good power wise. i like the hulk when he was a mindless raging powerhouse. now he got some "intelligence" he kinda suck now. Besides NO super being should be able to beat a GOD.Hulk included . If the  hulk NEVER got defeated or OK? Then i can see him giving zeus a challenge. Remember the red hulk did absorbed his gamma power and stop him to change into the hulk ever again. REMEMBER... IN MARVEL? THERE'S ALWAYS SOMBODY WHO CAN KICK YOUR BUTT oh and those who forgot. Hercules and Thor are demi gods.so yeah they can get they butt kick too.

#28 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio

Plus I wanted to add about human physiology, thats not such a... Hulk's physiology is mutated. Anything mutated is going to be essentially have potentially limitless applications. Thats pretty much how broad and strong the mutated term is, plus everything is actually a mutant to a degree. Depending on how broadly you apply the term. Could mean three ears, could mean Molecule Man power. 
 
This question has validity as well. So its a comic book? Does everyone read every comic book ever? No, people have preferences, so to a person asking another poster just to get use to it? Well, try buying every comic? I suppose if preferences don't matter and all comic books threshold for realism is the same or perceived realism, there is to be no discretion. Even the writers ask this question, and the ask the opposite question? Is this character is not powerful enough. Its something which can influence the creative aspects of a story. As well as of course there is discretion as well. So if people can enjoy a comic without caring, that's just dandy. Other peoples care, other peoples enjoy caring. 

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#29 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
That way any 'fans' of his that want Grep Pak fired because Hulk didn't beat Zeus can stop crying cause Hulk will be able to one shot Galaxies. 
Unfortunately, it was stupid that he didn't beat Zeus, what made the latter so special ?
#30 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio

Problem is not exactly that he is overpowered, but how there's just no more depth to his battles, nor to his stories, all Hulk stories are divided into two single trends:
 
1) Hulk saves someone --> misunderstandings ensue --> Thunderbolt Ross appears with a batallion.
 
2) Hulk is living peacefully --> he gets captured or involved in a fight with a supervillain as strong as him --> Supervillain kicks his ass and makes him angrier --> Hulk wins.
 
The Hulk is one of the most brilliant creations in comic books, but people really need to figure out what to do with him.
 
I'm talking to you Greg Pak.

#31 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@Feliciano2040 said:
@SC said:
That way any 'fans' of his that want Grep Pak fired because Hulk didn't beat Zeus can stop crying cause Hulk will be able to one shot Galaxies. 
Unfortunately, it was stupid that he didn't beat Zeus, what made the latter so special ?
 
Why is it stupid? I don't always agree with writers creative decisions, myself, still. Zeus isn't special. Lots of people have beat Hulk. This is fiction. They are fictional characters. Neither character is particularly special, in any way that is exclusive to them. 
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#32 Posted by Thor's hammmer (7162 posts) - - Show Bio

the way he's written Normally isn't that bed. every character has highs ans Lows. his highs are to high and his lows are to low.  but the same goes for every character. Human torch at his lowest can't flame on in the rain. at his highest he can reach Planck temperature. Thats to powerful!
#33 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
Why is it stupid? I don't always agree with writers creative decisions, myself, still. Zeus isn't special. Lots of people have beat Hulk. This is fiction. They are fictional characters. Neither character is particularly special, in any way that is exclusive to them. 
But there has to be some sort of logic to defeats and victories, sure that The Hulk is a WIS machine sometimes, but this fight wasn't one he should've lost, if Zeus is THAT powerful, then he can easily mop the floor with Thor, and that is not going to happen any time soon.
#34 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@Feliciano2040 said:
@SC said:
Why is it stupid? I don't always agree with writers creative decisions, myself, still. Zeus isn't special. Lots of people have beat Hulk. This is fiction. They are fictional characters. Neither character is particularly special, in any way that is exclusive to them. 
But there has to be some sort of logic to defeats and victories, sure that The Hulk is a WIS machine sometimes, but this fight wasn't one he should've lost, if Zeus is THAT powerful, then he can easily mop the floor with Thor, and that is not going to happen any time soon.
 
No, there doesn't have to be any logic at all, because Marvel and the writers aren't selling logic, they aren't selling a science, they are selling entertainment. Your preference appears to slated towards there being some sort of logic, but even then, I would argue its not logic you are looking for. Since your arguments seem based on opinion, interpretation and preference and not logic. 
 
Then no, just because Hulk lost, doesn't mean that Zeus can easily mop the floor with Thor. That's not logical at all. Your train of thought, leading to your conclusion. Not your conclusion. Which is an open answer. Which means Zeus might be able to wipe the floor easily with Thor. Depends. Just because something is not going to happen any time soon, doesn't mean it can't happen. I am not going to eat a Fish Burger anytime soon, but I could go eat one today. So even if my preference is to have tighter logic within the product that I buy, which is a fictional universe, I generally don't criticize the product as far as logic goes, unless my arguments are logic based, instead of preference based. Makes sense right? Well at least as far as your addressing my statement and me addressing yours. 
Moderator
#35 Posted by Thor's hammmer (7162 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
@Feliciano2040 said:
@SC said:
Why is it stupid? I don't always agree with writers creative decisions, myself, still. Zeus isn't special. Lots of people have beat Hulk. This is fiction. They are fictional characters. Neither character is particularly special, in any way that is exclusive to them. 
But there has to be some sort of logic to defeats and victories, sure that The Hulk is a WIS machine sometimes, but this fight wasn't one he should've lost, if Zeus is THAT powerful, then he can easily mop the floor with Thor, and that is not going to happen any time soon.
 No, there doesn't have to be any logic at all, because Marvel and the writers aren't selling logic, they aren't selling a science, they are selling entertainment. Your preference appears to slated towards there being some sort of logic, but even then, I would argue its not logic you are looking for. Since your arguments seem based on opinion, interpretation and preference and not logic.  Then no, just because Hulk lost, doesn't mean that Zeus can easily mop the floor with Thor. That's not logical at all. Your train of thought, leading to your conclusion. Not your conclusion. Which is an open answer. Which means Zeus might be able to wipe the floor easily with Thor. Depends. Just because something is not going to happen any time soon, doesn't mean it can't happen. I am not going to eat a Fish Burger anytime soon, but I could go eat one today. So even if my preference is to have tighter logic within the product that I buy, which is a fictional universe, I generally don't criticize the product as far as logic goes, unless my arguments are logic based, instead of preference based. Makes sense right? Well at least as far as your addressing my statement and me addressing yours. 

 
Given the Fact that Thpor stalemated  Zeus for months and the battle was only ended when they both admitted they couldn't win. and in thir other fight Zeus was in a warriors rage and Thor was cursed and he still gave him a hell of a fight. There is no way Zeus mops the floor with Thor.
#36 Edited by Kallarkz (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@Thor's hammmer said:


Given the Fact that Thpor stalemated  Zeus for months and the battle was only ended when they both admitted they couldn't win. and in thir other fight Zeus was in a warriors rage and Thor was cursed and he still gave him a hell of a fight. There is no way Zeus mops the floor with Thor.

I forget exactly when this occurred. I'm not quite sure that Thor would be able to pull off the same feat today from the different showings we have seen him in recently. Odin and Zeus are considered to be almost at the same level as is Bor and Odin...Thor needed the Odin Force in order to fight Bor (I believe at one point he stated that if he had not had the Odin Force in him while fighting Bor a blow could have killed him. 
 
Thors most recent fights with sky father level characters have not gone so well. He father tossed him around and Thor himself stated that one hit from Bor would have killed him if he had not possessed the Odin Force. I know Thor beat ****** in 1984 and stalemated **** in 1991... I'm simply referring to the most recent show of his abilities against these types of characters and what he himself has stated about the limits of his own abilities. 
 
As far as the topic goes: No.
#37 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:

No, there doesn't have to be any logic at all, because Marvel and the writers aren't selling logic, they aren't selling a science, they are selling entertainment. Your preference appears to slated towards there being some sort of logic, but even then, I would argue its not logic you are looking for. Since your arguments seem based on opinion, interpretation and preference and not logic.

 Obviously it's not logic as the discipline itself, we're obviously not talking about reasonable / unreasonable premises and conclusions.
 
Perhaps a better word is "consistency", it fits better with the continuous (sp) nature of comic books and it's adequate given how comics are broad in their conditions, also because it allows me to define an inconsistent comic as one which doesn't adhere to the norms and conditions previously established by the writers and by their stories.

The rule here, as proven continuously by Marvel, not by me, not by any fan, is that an angry Hulk, at any given time and with any given amount of rage, can overcome any physical fight against most (not all) characters that inhabit the Marvel Universe.
 
So why exactly does Zeus defeat Hulk ? As I said, why is he special ? If there is no condition at all, if it is a physical fight, then he just beat him because that's how the story had to go, it is then what we would call "Plot Induced Stupidity", unless somehow Marvel explained to us (in one way or another) that Zeus was "_________" and therefore we could say "Oh ! So that's why !"
 
Now, given how really angry Hulk can beat Thor, then surely Zeus must mop the floor with Thor, because the only other condition, apart from superhuman strength is physical combat, which would apply to all three characters, UNLESS: a) Mjolnir had some "kryptonitic" effect on Zeus or b) Thor challenged Zeus in some other manner which wasn't physical combat.
#38 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@Feliciano2040 said:
Obviously it's not logic as the discipline itself, we're obviously not talking about reasonable / unreasonable premises and conclusions.
 
Perhaps a better word is "consistency", it fits better with the continuous (sp) nature of comic books and it's adequate given how comics are broad in their conditions, also because it allows me to define an inconsistent comic as one which doesn't adhere to the norms and conditions previously established by the writers and by their stories.

The rule here, as proven continuously by Marvel, not by me, not by any fan, is that an angry Hulk, at any given time and with any given amount of rage, can overcome any physical fight against most (not all) characters that inhabit the Marvel Universe.
 
So why exactly does Zeus defeat Hulk ? As I said, why is he special ? If there is no condition at all, if it is a physical fight, then he just beat him because that's how the story had to go, it is then what we would call "Plot Induced Stupidity", unless somehow Marvel explained to us (in one way or another) that Zeus was "_________" and therefore we could say "Oh ! So that's why !"
 
Now, given how really angry Hulk can beat Thor, then surely Zeus must mop the floor with Thor, because the only other condition, apart from superhuman strength is physical combat, which would apply to all three characters, UNLESS: a) Mjolnir had some "kryptonitic" effect on Zeus or b) Thor challenged Zeus in some other manner which wasn't physical combat.
 
When we are talking of logic, there is no obviously. So again. No. If you want to talk logic? Throw out what's obvious, because to me? I would have thought it was obvious that we both know, that no logic has to be involved with these comic, and characters, and fiction, and yet? Do you understand what I mean? For example, now you are saying perhaps consistency is a better word, well yes, consistency is a better word, but even then, there does not need to be consistency as far as these characters and comics go. Its preferred? Yes, its present to a degree yes? Its rewarded financially by the customers? Yes, but your initial statement even substituting in the word consistency for logic is still false. So again, I don't think we should take anything for granted here as far as what is obvious.  
 
Then again no, there is no rule proven here by Marvel, that's a gross oversimplification and your arguments still lack logic. Any fictional character as proven by real life logic, can at any time, with any amount of circumstance overcome anything, that inhabit the fictional Universe.  
 
I already answered your two questions. Zeus is not special, and Hulk is not special. What trait does Zeus or Hulk have that no other character has? There is always a condition. Hulk is defined by the tories he is in. Marvel doesn't need to explain jack, you can disagree with the narrative, but your argument must be specific, not general, because your basis for arguments are the same general sources. If your arguing from logic as opposed to preference? You should know this.  
 
Actually Hulk's creator supposes that Thor is stronger than Hulk, but if Hulk can get angry enough, its a draw in strength. So that's Hulk's and Thor's origin comparison with strength "Roy: And now I have what Evans and Novak would call on their show, "The Big Question," which the editor requested me to ask you: Which is stronger, Thor or the Hulk? Stan: I would have to guess that Thor is stronger... he'd probably beat the Hulk. But what's interesting with the Hulk is, the more he fights and the more he's beaten, the stronger he gets, so maybe it would be a draw"  
 
Now you can say, you personally, disagree with that creatively, OR that after that, some writers decided to write that Hulk is stronger, well that's inconsistency right there. Forgetting that, you make a very illogical argument but assuming that strength is the most important factor in a fight, and a really angry Aunt May can beat hulk in a fight, because any character can beat any character in a fight, its not if they can, its whether they will, or whether they do, or what a thousand other qualities. So your logic is lacking therefore if you think the only conclusion with a Thor and Zeus fight is that Zeus mops the floor with Thor. No, not sure Zeus must. Nothing surely about anything. Nothing must about anything. This is not a false dilemma. Look that word up, and you will probably find a page on the internet saying that that thinking is flawed logically. So I don't need to address anything else you say from here on, because your arguing from a flawed perspective.  
 
 
My friend, there are arguments and discussions based around objective reasoning and logic, and then there are discussions of preference and opinion. Your arguing preference and opinion here and your examples to support anything more than that, are cherry picked, argued from ignorance filled with false dichotomies and generally other flawed arguments, illogical arguments. I just don't understand why you just stand behind your opinion, instead of trying to present an objective based argument? That's my most important question for you, if you wish to, or choose to answer it. 
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#39 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@Thor's hammmer said:
Given the Fact that Thpor stalemated  Zeus for months and the battle was only ended when they both admitted they couldn't win. and in thir other fight Zeus was in a warriors rage and Thor was cursed and he still gave him a hell of a fight. There is no way Zeus mops the floor with Thor.
 
 
Well, not based from narrative consistency sure, but if Greg Pak wrote a Thor and Zeus clash, maybe he would have Zeus mop the floor with Thor. Its a possibility. Creatively I may disagree, I may have good arguments why it shouldn't happen, but because its fiction, I can't argue that it can't ever happen. 
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#40 Posted by Timandm (3316 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Stegman: I'd like to state for the record that World War Hulk never happened... It was all one big mass illusion....
 
Regarding whether or not the Hulk should be able to do some of the things he does since he is still human...  The same question could be asked of The Flash, Colossus, Storm, or Wonder Woman (who, in spite of being an Amazon, is still basically human.)  Don't you think?
#41 Posted by Timandm (3316 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
One time he almost beat a lot of people, other times, Dazzler, Captain America, and Doc Sampson knocked him out. If anything, I think he needs a massive power upgrade. Like above Galactus in power. That way any 'fans' of his that want Grep Pak fired because Hulk didn't beat Zeus can stop crying cause Hulk will be able to one shot Galaxies. 
Wait... WHAT?  You mean he CAN'T beat Galactus and topple galaxies NOW?  Who the smurf do I complain to about this!!!!!
#42 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@Timandm said:
@SC said:
One time he almost beat a lot of people, other times, Dazzler, Captain America, and Doc Sampson knocked him out. If anything, I think he needs a massive power upgrade. Like above Galactus in power. That way any 'fans' of his that want Grep Pak fired because Hulk didn't beat Zeus can stop crying cause Hulk will be able to one shot Galaxies. 
Wait... WHAT?  You mean he CAN'T beat Galactus and topple galaxies NOW?  Who the smurf do I complain to about this!!!!!
 
Hulk. (he is of the green Smurf variety that almost went extinct because of the genocide attempted by the blue Smurfs)
 
His super hearing allows him to hear your prayers and complaints about his insufficient feats, so take your vitamins brotha, because Hulkmania is about to run wild on you!! 
Moderator
#43 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:


For example, now you are saying perhaps consistency is a better word, well yes, consistency is a better word, but even then, there does not need to be consistency as far as these characters and comics go. Its preferred? Yes, its present to a degree yes? Its rewarded financially by the customers? Yes, but your initial statement even substituting in the word consistency for logic is still false. So again, I don't think we should take anything for granted here as far as what is obvious.

Friend, do you like stupid stories ? Do you like stories where writers disregard continuity and previously established events or actions in favor of a story fueled by the writer's ignorance of the character they are writing ?
 
I feel ridiculous (sp) answering your questions, OBVIOUSLY it is a matter of choice wether or not to have consistency, OBVIOUSLY Marvel can choose or not choose to do such things, but not following with certain conditions, in this case, consistency, then the stories would be simply stupid.
 
What you're saying, basically, is that one shouldn't complain about bad acting in a movie because actors hold the prerogative (sp) to either act bad or not act bad, you're defending an absurd point. 
 

Then again no, there is no rule proven here by Marvel, that's a gross oversimplification and your arguments still lack logic. Any fictional character as proven by real life logic, can at any time, with any amount of circumstance overcome anything, that inhabit the fictional Universe.

What ?! Of course not.
 
Naturally there is nothing set in stone, there is no Marvel Handbook for how to write comic book characters ! But it is implied that there's limits for every character, it would be idiotic that a powerless Gwen Stacy would slap Venom around without any sort of powers, same as Steve Rogers knocking out Galactus with a roundhouse kick, as plenty of other examples.

I already answered your two questions. Zeus is not special, and Hulk is not special. What trait does Zeus or Hulk have that no other character has? There is always a condition. Hulk is defined by the tories he is in. Marvel doesn't need to explain jack, you can disagree with the narrative, but your argument must be specific, not general, because your basis for arguments are the same general sources. If your arguing from logic as opposed to preference? You should know this.

 ........................................
 
First, you didn't answer my questions, attacking my arguments with words I chose to drop long ago, specifically "logic" in this case, is not "answering those questions".
 
Second,  you're defending the same absurd point again.
 
Third, don't push where there is no need, I already recused myself from talking in terms of logic because you pointed out that we really can't speak in those terms, I chose to use the word consistency, so don't base your argument over something we got over, from my side at least.
 
Fourth, how specific do you want me to get ? Do you want me to asses the exact quantity of newtons that Zeus punches carried in comparison to The Hulk's ? You're gonna grow wings by the time that happens.
 

Actually Hulk's creator supposes that Thor is stronger than Hulk, but if Hulk can get angry enough, its a draw in strength. So that's Hulk's and Thor's origin comparison with strength "Roy: And now I have what Evans and Novak would call on their show, "The Big Question," which the editor requested me to ask you: Which is stronger, Thor or the Hulk? Stan: I would have to guess that Thor is stronger... he'd probably beat the Hulk. But what's interesting with the Hulk is, the more he fights and the more he's beaten, the stronger he gets, so maybe it would be a draw" 

If you seriously want to discuss this, then we should perhaps agree on what version of The Hulk we want to talk about, because wether we like it or not, Golden Age Hulk is nowhere near the amount of strenght that Modern Age Hulk is at, therefore, whatever Stan Lee said about the character is flimsy foundation for any argument we both may have about this, depending of course on the version of The Hulk we choose to discuss.
 

Now you can say, you personally, disagree with that creatively, OR that after that, some writers decided to write that Hulk is stronger, well that's inconsistency right there.

Friend, of course it's inconsistency, but we don't disregard it simply because someone chose to ignore it at one point, we deal with it, new generations come and handle it adequately in their own way, for example, NO ONE in their right mind would say Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" sucks because it's inconsistent with the Golden Age representation of Batman.
 

Forgetting that, you make a very illogical argument but assuming that strength is the most important factor in a fight, and a really angry Aunt May can beat hulk in a fight, because any character can beat any character in a fight, its not if they can, its whether they will, or whether they do, or what a thousand other qualities. So your logic is lacking therefore if you think the only conclusion with a Thor and Zeus fight is that Zeus mops the floor with Thor. 

................................................................
 
Are you trolling me ?

Obviously if Aunt May had a "Hulk-killer-pistol" she could win, but when we're having a civilized discussion, with rules, with clarified points and consciously being aware of the conditions of the hypothetical fight, in this case "Zeus Vs. Hulk", then we can come to a reasonable conclusion as to who would win ! I shouldn't have to explain this.


So I don't need to address anything else you say from here on, because your arguing from a flawed perspective.

I have to give it to you, you have absolutely no shame in blatantly using different words to say: "You're wrong, I'm right, so shaddap !".
 

My friend, there are arguments and discussions based around objective reasoning and logic, and then there are discussions of preference and opinion. Your arguing preference and opinion here and your examples to support anything more than that, are cherry picked, argued from ignorance filled with false dichotomies and generally other flawed arguments, illogical arguments. I just don't understand why you just stand behind your opinion, instead of trying to present an objective based argument? That's my most important question for you, if you wish to, or choose to answer it. 

If you would've bothered to read my post instead of making very odd passive-aggressive remarks, you would've noticed that I was trying to initiate such a discussion.
 
Granted, I hadn't clarified important points, but I don't think that merited (sp) you to disregard my argument in that manner.
#44 Edited by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@Feliciano2040:  You appear to be taking this somewhat personally? I am not sure if this is strictly true, you might think this of me, like this for example.  
 
@Feliciano2040 said:

I feel ridiculous (sp) answering your questions, 

 
You feel? Why feel anything? Why not point out the ridiculous nature of my questions, what dies your feelings or my feelings have to do with this?  
 
@Feliciano2040 said:

 Are you trolling me ?

 
No, why would I do that? Do you feel trolled?  
 
@Feliciano2040 said:

 If you would've bothered to read my post instead of making very odd passive-aggressive remarks, you would've noticed that I was trying to initiate such a discussion.  Granted, I hadn't clarified important points, but I don't think that merited (sp) you to disregard my argument in that manner.

 
I did read your posts, I read all of them, so I did bother, and unfortunately no, you can only interpret my remarks as passive aggressive. My remarks as with my intent are not passive aggress, but, if you look at your quotes I have just quoted above, as well as many of your other comments in your last post, I wonder, honestly and genuinely whether you have the capacity to argue logic, and not take things personally. I am sorry, but I am not here to have a personal argument with you and you shouldn't feel personally by me, pointing out your logic is flawed, if I actually explain why and how your logic is flawed.  I'll maintain my focus there if you don't mind instead of what I perceive by you as passive aggressiveness. If your not being passive aggressive, or being emotionally sensitive? Then great, you know, by my word, that I am not being passive aggressive so you can also drop all the side personalized remarks and focus on the logic or our arguments yes? Plus remember you questioned me first. You were trying to initiate some type of discussion, otherwise possibly you should not have addressed me? Now see if I was feeling passive aggressive I would say that you started an argument that you are vastly ill equipped for, and are now realizing that and you are are now resorting to ad hominem attacks, but then that might just be my natural snarkiness coming out and it might actually be true lol
 
@Feliciano2040 said:

Friend, do you like stupid stories ? Do you like stories where writers disregard continuity and previously established events or actions in favor of a story fueled by the writer's ignorance of the character they are writing ? 

 
Depends, are you a professional writer being paid my Marvel? I liked Loeb's Hulk run, and I know he is a professional writer and i know professional writers don't write stories fueled by ignorance of the character they are writing, usually the reason they disregard continuity is because most fans don't care, and prefer entertainment since again, comics are not a science, comics are for entertainment. I am a Hulk and a Thor and a Watcher and a She Hulk and a Silver Surfer fan, so parts where I felt they were mistreated I wasn't fond of, but over all the story was silly and fun and so I liked it alright. I would class that as a stupid story, but its a story that has still sold more than anything I have written, or I guess that you have written, and also stories I have considered better, written by writers who do value continuity more.  
 
Do you like asking oversimplified questions so the simple answers make more sense to you? That's fine, your preference.  
 
@Feliciano2040 said:

I feel ridiculous (sp) answering your questions, OBVIOUSLY it is a matter of choice wether or not to have consistency, OBVIOUSLY Marvel can choose or not choose to do such things, but not following with certain conditions, in this case, consistency, then the stories would be simply stupid.
 
What you're saying, basically, is that one shouldn't complain about bad acting in a movie because actors hold the prerogative (sp) to either act bad or not act bad, you're defending an absurd point.  

  
I'll just address this point about? I have scanned over your post, but just don't feel the need to address any more of it, and I'll explain why with how I address your points here okay? I sincerely apologize, but you do not know, how to make a good structured argument. You use the word obviously again, without addressing my argument for why your use of it makes your arguments illogical.  
 
You set up another false dichotomy.  Its not obviously a matter of choice to have consistency or not, its a matter of choices, plural. Creative choices which grants discretion. Marvel obviously can't choose or not choose. Its going to happen inherently with any action they take. Hence consistency is subjective. Hence for one guy, any inconsistencies from one panel to another panel, or one issue to another issue, or one story to another story, could constitute stupidity. For that individual at least. Except individuals opinions are not objective wide spread facts. Your statement that the stories would be stupid, is ONLY an opinion.  
 
Then no, that's not basically my point at all. That's what your understanding of my point is, which continues to demonstrate that you are not good at understanding critical reasoning or solid logic. Since your argument is now one of a straw man argument. How can you demonstrate my accusations are false? Use what I have written, to prove, that what you say i am basically saying, is what I am saying.  
 
I am saying just to clarify, just for you, that acting can be subjective. Acting can be objective as well. but that requires objective reasoning, not personal opinion. If a serious actor, known for serious performances, is in a comedy, one which by design is intended to be funny and stupid and entertaining for those reasons, and that movie is enjoyed by many and that actor is great in their new, comedic role, that it could be accurate to say that that is a good actor, and they are a good actor, because they have demonstrated range, which is an objective positive quality about being an actor. The ability to play more than one role.  Now, if i personally hate comedy's? I see this movie and hate it? I can't say the actor is a bad actor because I hate stupid movies. I mean, I can say that? That would be a preference and an opinion though, but I am also making some very illogical arguments in demonstrating why an actor would be bad on the basis I didn't like their character. I said or say NOTHING, about complaining about bad acting in a movie, because there is the opinion, that the acting was bad? (I didn't believe the actor was playing a part, they didn't make sense, they kept looking at the camera, they broke the aesthetic distance for me etc) but then there is the objective argument that the acting was bad (similar to above but and whether they were suppose to)  so subjectivity and objectivity are at play here and so i am not defending an absurd point, you can't seem to grasp the point so you judgment if whether a point is absurd or not is extremely flawed. Ironically so. A straw man attack.  
 
Now this is just one point i have made that you can't seem to understand, and so insert your own flawed understanding. How many of your other arguments are the same? I don't have the time, so I will dismiss all of them as flawed, illogical, until at least this point and argument above? I'll wait for you to explain and prove how my point is absurd better that I just deconstructed your argument as flawed, illogical and without logical basis and almost seemingly born out of emotion. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Do you know what a straw man argument is? 
Moderator
#45 Posted by Alexander Anderson (4030 posts) - - Show Bio

He's as he should be.

#46 Posted by Thor's hammmer (7162 posts) - - Show Bio
@Kallarkz said:
@Thor's hammmer said:


Given the Fact that Thpor stalemated  Zeus for months and the battle was only ended when they both admitted they couldn't win. and in thir other fight Zeus was in a warriors rage and Thor was cursed and he still gave him a hell of a fight. There is no way Zeus mops the floor with Thor.

I forget exactly when this occurred. I'm not quite sure that Thor would be able to pull off the same feat today from the different showings we have seen him in recently. Odin and Zeus are considered to be almost at the same level as is Bor and Odin...Thor needed the Odin Force in order to fight Bor (I believe at one point he stated that if he had not had the Odin Force in him while fighting Bor a blow could have killed him.  Thors most recent fights with sky father level characters have not gone so well. He father tossed him around and Thor himself stated that one hit from Bor would have killed him if he had not possessed the Odin Force. I know Thor beat ****** in 1984 and stalemated **** in 1991... I'm simply referring to the most recent show of his abilities against these types of characters and what he himself has stated about the limits of his own abilities.  As far as the topic goes: No.

 
 
well Give the Fact that . 
A) it is never stated that Bor and Odin are equals. 
B) Zeus's father is more powerful than him so it's possible Odin's is as well. 
C) in every fight Odin has had with Thor Odin mops the floor with him. 
D) Odin is so powerful that he can banish and de-power Thor, Loki, Balder and Sif at the same time. 
E) Odin has feats that surpass Odin and many other skyfathers by far.{stealing hell lords souls, busting multiple Galaxies at a time, Shaking the whole multiverse, Stalemating Dormamu, Defeating deth Gods considered=to there skyfather with incredible ease or while weakened(including Banishing Hades Zeus's brother and = with a thought)}  
and finally F) Odin and his brothers are both third generation Gods as are Zeus and his brothers, Zeus and his brothers are supposed to create a trinity and are all roughly equal in power. So are Odin and his Brothers. However all of Zeus's brother still share thir total power 3 ways, both of Odin's brothers died and he absorbed all of their powers making him 3 times the God he used to be. After tghis event there was a war between asgard and olympus that ended in stalemate despite of the fact that Thiere are 3 of the suns of Cronos and only one son of Bor. which would explain why based on feats Odin is atleast 3X>Zeus and why in a fight witch Zeus Thor can hold his own, but in a fight with Odin Thor gets stomped.
#47 Posted by cosmo111687 (1463 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC@Feliciano2040:  I'm sorry if I'm butting in here, but....I've only been on the vine for a month or two and from what I've seen from both of you is that you're both very reasonable people with fair, albeit differing, opinions on things. So it's kind of upsetting seeing this argument explode into something like this because of, as I see it (from a third-party perpsective) just fundamental miscommunication.  
 
I think you both have really valid points to be made about Hulk. On one side, it's best to try to maintain a certain level of internal logic and continuity so that the reader can retain some feeling of suspense when Hulk faces a being who, based upon previous knowledge, would pose a threat to him. It only makes his character stronger by forcing him into tough situations that require more than anger and big, green fists to resolve. However, Hulk is a completely fantastical fictional character who's powers are potentially limitless (alliterations!). And he's basically just about big, green fists and anger. That's who he is and that's what fans of his like to see. So whither a writer decides to write a more grounded Hulk or a more fantastical Hulk is perfectly valid either way. They're just different directions that could be taken with his character and whither he should be taken one way or another is just a matter of preference. 
  
But I think that you've both been offended, intentionally or not, by some things that the other has said.  And so that's kind of made you both Hulk-out a little... 
 
So maybe you guys should just brew some nice, hot tea, find a comfortable place to sit, go on a rampage across the San Fransisco bay area, grunting loudly and crumbling fighter planes between your fingers with nothing on but giant, purple pants, and cool down for a second so you can approach this thing with a bit more of the good old rationality and patience that I've seen from you both in the past and then just agree to disagree and move on....
#48 Posted by Kallarkz (3295 posts) - - Show Bio
@Thor's hammmer said:
@Kallarkz said:
@Thor's hammmer said:


Given the Fact that Thpor stalemated  Zeus for months and the battle was only ended when they both admitted they couldn't win. and in thir other fight Zeus was in a warriors rage and Thor was cursed and he still gave him a hell of a fight. There is no way Zeus mops the floor with Thor.

I forget exactly when this occurred. I'm not quite sure that Thor would be able to pull off the same feat today from the different showings we have seen him in recently. Odin and Zeus are considered to be almost at the same level as is Bor and Odin...Thor needed the Odin Force in order to fight Bor (I believe at one point he stated that if he had not had the Odin Force in him while fighting Bor a blow could have killed him.  Thors most recent fights with sky father level characters have not gone so well. He father tossed him around and Thor himself stated that one hit from Bor would have killed him if he had not possessed the Odin Force. I know Thor beat ****** in 1984 and stalemated **** in 1991... I'm simply referring to the most recent show of his abilities against these types of characters and what he himself has stated about the limits of his own abilities.  As far as the topic goes: No.
  well Give the Fact that . A) it is never stated that Bor and Odin are equals. B) Zeus's father is more powerful than him so it's possible Odin's is as well. C) in every fight Odin has had with Thor Odin mops the floor with him. D) Odin is so powerful that he can banish and de-power Thor, Loki, Balder and Sif at the same time. E) Odin has feats that surpass Odin and many other skyfathers by far.{stealing hell lords souls, busting multiple Galaxies at a time, Shaking the whole multiverse, Stalemating Dormamu, Defeating deth Gods considered=to there skyfather with incredible ease or while weakened(including Banishing Hades Zeus's brother and = with a thought)}  and finally F) Odin and his brothers are both third generation Gods as are Zeus and his brothers, Zeus and his brothers are supposed to create a trinity and are all roughly equal in power. So are Odin and his Brothers. However all of Zeus's brother still share thir total power 3 ways, both of Odin's brothers died and he absorbed all of their powers making him 3 times the God he used to be. After tghis event there was a war between asgard and olympus that ended in stalemate despite of the fact that Thiere are 3 of the suns of Cronos and only one son of Bor. which would explain why based on feats Odin is atleast 3X>Zeus and why in a fight witch Zeus Thor can hold his own, but in a fight with Odin Thor gets stomped.
Odin inherited his fathers powers when he died... and Thor himself stated that if he did not have the Odin power he would have been killed. Where has it been stated that somehow Bor was more powerful than Odin or viceversa? Why are we assuming that there was some power differential between Odin and Bor? I
I have never seen anything to show that Odin is exactly X3 more powerful than Zeus other than assumptions. o.O  Odin I believe does have more feats but never have I heard it said or implied that Odin is vastly most powerful than Zeus.
When was it exactly that the 9 month stalemate fight between Zeus and Thor occur? Because like i said his recent events with characters of his level of power has not gone so well at classic or if he would have been at classic levels.
#49 Posted by SC (13341 posts) - - Show Bio
@cosmo111687 said:
@SC@Feliciano2040:  I'm sorry if I'm butting in here, but....I've only been on the vine for a month or two and from what I've seen from both of you is that you're both very reasonable people with fair, albeit differing, opinions on things. So it's kind of upsetting seeing this argument explode into something like this because of, as I see it (from a third-party perpsective) just fundamental miscommunication.   I think you both have really valid points to be made about Hulk. On one side, it's best to try to maintain a certain level of internal logic and continuity so that the reader can retain some feeling of suspense when Hulk faces a being who, based upon previous knowledge, would pose a threat to him. It only makes his character stronger by forcing him into tough situations that require more than anger and big, green fists to resolve. However, Hulk is a completely fantastical fictional character who's powers are potentially limitless (alliterations!). And he's basically just about big, green fists and anger. That's who he is and that's what fans of his like to see. So whither a writer decides to write a more grounded Hulk or a more fantastical Hulk is perfectly valid either way. They're just different directions that could be taken with his character and whither he should be taken one way or another is just a matter of preference.   But I think that you've both been offended, intentionally or not, by some things that the other has said.  And so that's kind of made you both Hulk-out a little...  So maybe you guys should just brew some nice, hot tea, find a comfortable place to sit, go on a rampage across the San Fransisco bay area, grunting loudly and crumbling fighter planes between your fingers with nothing on but giant, purple pants, and cool down for a second so you can approach this thing with a bit more of the good old rationality and patience that I've seen from you both in the past and then just agree to disagree and move on....
 
No feel free, I appreciate your perspective on all matters generally.  *smile*
 
I can say I am honestly not offended. I can also say I am odd, and I can be stubborn, and I have a funny way of talking to other people lol but never usually to offend, in fact that's why I don't go around and quote other people, if I can help it.  (I am not trying to be offensive either)
 
My personal preference? Is the same as I think the person I am disagreeing here over matters concerning Hulk. I am a huge continuity geek. Good consistency with characters and continuity constitutes a good book to me. My argument, is that I should not dismiss other people, and that includes writers because my preferences are elsewhere? Makes sense? In fact to me, Hulk is not even important to the discussion at hand.  
 
So if my opinion is similar to their opinion? We can't even agree to disagree lol, because we agree. Except I feel okay, pointing out that Greg Pak, being fired? Is a bad thing just because he had Hulk lose. Not just my opinion, i think its bad for the comics industry? For characters, for writers, for fans? If writers started getting fired purely on the basis that they have characters lose. Now I got challenged on that. Some one addressed me with the argument that its "stupid" that Hulk lose to Zeus. I could agree with them that's it stupid, you could agree with it that its stupid, but would you say that it was a fact that it was stupid? Or more opinion? More subjectivity?  
 
So I am not sure why the other poster addresses me. If they feel its a fact that its stupid loses and all that it implies, they can, I have no problem with that either, its when they try to point out my reasons for holding what I believe are absurd, etc. Another poster even actually completely disagreed with one of their assessments and then I even applied my argument to them as well for the sake of consistency. 
 
I thank you for your interjection and your peacemaking abilities. 
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#50 Posted by turoksonofstone (12901 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Hulk too powerful??/ 
Better Question: Is _______(DC hero of your choice) Too Powerful?

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