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    Homosexuality

    Concept » Homosexuality appears in 890 issues.

    Previously a rarity in comics, modern times have since seen an increase in openly gay characters to reflect a more modern and accurate portrayal of society.

    The Seduction of the Innocent and Homosexuality in Comics

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    RazzaTazz

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    Edited By RazzaTazz

    I don’t think anyone who knows anything about history and anything about comics is at all surprised to know that Frederic Wertham’s book “The Seduction of the Innocent” came out around the same time as McCarthyism was prevalent in America (this wasn’t as bad here in Canada, but still getting labelled a commie was bad news for anyone in North America those days.)    The general level of xenophobia to the other or to something new literally terrified people, and in this ripe ground onto the public stage stepped Wertham.   To be fair in those days people still believed that psychologist were almost like magicians.   They knew secrets about the human brain and using tricks could make humans do whatever they wanted.   Of course 60 years later with such failed concepts as electroshock therapy behind them the discipline is becoming a bit more respectable, and I don’t think anyone these days thinks it is possible to brainwash people (at least not in the Manchurian Candidate kind of way.)   But back to the 1950s this was indeed the case, and its not surprising considering how recently some respected scientists had worked in the academic fields of craniometry or eugenics.  

    At this time there was also a lot of change going on in society.   For instance women had joined the workforce and with increasing professional power came more social power.   Hemlines rose and necklines dropped.   People seeking more traditional roles and norms fought back against these new forces in society, but as with most people fighting change in history they were losing.   And so along comes the psychologist, with the supposedly omnipotent power to understand the human brain who decries that comic books are corrupting our youth.   And what does he come up with?   Basically just meaningless drivel, a lot of it aimed against homosexuals, presumably with the ridiculous concept that it is possible to corrupt someone into being gay.   Wonder Woman was identified by Wertham as a lesbian and Batman and Robin were insinuated to be gay lovers.   Along with other accusations which leaves one shaking their heads these days (like that Superman was an anti-American fascist) the book took off and had a hand in leading to the establishment of the Comic Books Code.  

    I personally never liked the comic book code, if for no other reason that I didn’t like seeing a little postage stamp like thing on the cover of old comics.   Even though I didn’t know what it was at the time I was still sceptical as to what it was doing there.   The thing about Wertham and his claims about homosexual influence in comic books is that he was right, but not in the way that you might think.   In the 1980s and before the internet, my mom was a big fan of mail order catalogues (just as today she is addicted to EBay and Amazon.)   If you leafed through the book related catalogues you would find a substantial amount of gay literature, books on the photography of naked men and so on.   What’s the point?   That’s its not easy in life to be something which the entire society which you grew up in has a problem with.   Even in the 1980s it took a lot of courage to walk into a bookstore and look at the gay literature section (I think it still takes some courage to do so today).   It was a lot easier to order it by mail and enjoy your anonymity.   So back in the 1950s and before Barnes and Nobles catalogues I am sure a lot of want-to-be anonymous people found some outlet in the relationship between Bruce and Dick or in Diana’s adventures, but that doesn’t make the characters gay.   Even this statement does a great disservice to fans who may have been homosexual.  They were infinitely more likely to be picking up the book for themselves or their kids for the entertainment value.  The influence of Wertham though was successful to keep a lot of themes out of comics.   Not just homosexuality but also a lot of other ones.  This led to a few small changes (Alfred was replaced with Aunt Harriet – I think that was her name) but in the end had no real effect on the overall readership of comics.   More so I would argue that the attempts to push any type of quasi-accepted behaviour back into the shadows only creates a ticking time bomb, and with rampant censorship and recrimnation in the years after the Second World War, the gay movement finally broke out during protests, rebellions and even riots in the late 1960s.   In a comic book sense, those who identified themselves as “other” for whatever reason, found a home in the resurgence of Marvel Comics.   Here Spider-Man and the X-Men were heroes who knew what it meant like to feel like on the outside, and all fans who were outsiders found characters to relate to, regardless of their sexual orientation.       

    This brings us to the modern age.   First I should say that my personal belief is that it is not possible to convert someone to becoming a homosexual, but for those who do believe they are usually among the same crowd as those who believe it is possible to convert homosexuals to being straight.   Someone’s sexual orientation is a part of them which is unchangeable.   Despite the comic books code (which companies don’t really adhere to anymore anyway) there are more homosexuals in comics these days, but I don’t generally agree with how they are presented.   All too often a character just “becomes gay” as a plot device (in fact the powers that be at Comic vine should add this to the quest set for “Comic Book Cliches”).   My knowledge of Marvel or other companies is not as deep as for DC, but I know Tasmanian Devil, Icemaiden and Obsidian all stated their homosexuality for mostly no other reason than it was added lazy and convenient way to a bit of depth to their character.   Maybe writers think that by the characters declaring their homosexuality are automatically more interesting.   In the first two cases I listed the characters expressed an interest in their own gender and then no reference was ever made to it again.   For me this is a fairly important point in someone’s life to continually overlook.   For me though seeing Obsidian (who is consistently written as being gay) profess his interest in men is even worse.   It is about as interesting as if Hal claimed to be dating a member of yet another alien race.    My main point is this -  “WHO CARES?”   I don’t care what gender, species, shape (etc.) the character I am reading about is dating, just make the story interesting and I will enjoy reading it (this is true for me even if the relationship is one I don’t want to see, like when Selena had her baby with someone other than Bruce.)   If it is a hollow relationship as most of these revelatory homosexual proclamations are which are just meant to sort of shock the reader while also making the comic book company look avant garde, then I think they would get a lot farther with something like a redesign of Wonder Woman’s bracelets.  

    Have the companies tried to introduce something a bit more realistic?   I would say they are getting there.   The Batwoman/Question relationship for me is heading in the right direction.   A lot of people might complain and say it is not realistic to depict in the media that all lesbians are lipstick lesbians and that this represents a safe avenue for male fans because both of the characters are attractive and thus seeing them together doesn’t conjure negative images.   Its not a good argument though.   Bruce Wayne with his seemingly sculpted muscles and Selena Kyle with her more than perfect hourglass figure present such an equally unlikely couple as well.   Comic book characters are just generally attractive, and this wouldn’t change just because they are gay.   What is missing is a major gay male character in either of the main two companies.   Is it coming?   Probably.   Will his relationships be depicted as something real and not just a gay stereotype?   I hope so.  

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    Primmaster64

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    #1  Edited By Primmaster64

    O_O

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    VIZION2011

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    #2  Edited By VIZION2011

    WOW DUDE WOW !!!!! THIS IS SOOOO WELL PUT, i'm but and I so agree with every word you so artfully trped. THIS IS FREAKIN AWSOME!!!!!

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    Doctor!!!!!

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    #3  Edited By Doctor!!!!!

    Ooooooooooooo Wow....That came from the heart!
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    InnerVenom123

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    #4  Edited By InnerVenom123

    Nice post, totally agreed 100%. 

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    TheCrusader

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    #6  Edited By TheCrusader

    I have always suspected that portions of the comic book industry are/were/always have been, havens for pedophiles and sexual deviants.
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    Shadowdoggy

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    #7  Edited By Shadowdoggy
    @RazzaTazz:
    wow that was a really good read 
    very well stated  
    I am in full agreement 
    I think it's great that there are as many gay characters as there are now in comics 
    sure, it's still not that many, and no, I don't usually see lesbian couples that look like Kate and Renee, but it's good for kids of all kinds to have a broaders sense of how diverse the world really is 
    there were no gay superheros when I was a kid 
    no gay tv shows (except for Matt on melroes place....) 
    and no readily available internet 
    I honestly had never met another gay person until I was 15 or 16 
    so I think it's great to have them for gay kids to look up to 
    and for ALL kids to get to know so that (hopefully) one day we have a society where no one can feel as if they have never been exposed to the wealth of different people there are in the world
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    RazzaTazz

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    #8  Edited By RazzaTazz
    @aztek the lost: I didnt think this would be such a common theme around here.  I am just new though so what do I know.   
     
    @TheCrusader: I am not sure you got the point.  Anyway there are just as many of those two groups of people here as there are in any church. 
     
    @Shadowdoggy: To Shadowdoggy and to all really, thanks for the feedback.  
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    Primmaster64

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    #9  Edited By Primmaster64

    I always thought that censoring nudity was stupid and that violence and gore is more accepted...what kind of hypocrasy is that?

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    hydrabob--defunct

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    i'm sure what everyone else said here is true, but i don't have the attention span to read all of that, any chance i can get the cliff notes?

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    Shadow_Thief

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    #11  Edited By Shadow_Thief

    I salute you.

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    Shadowdoggy

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    #12  Edited By Shadowdoggy
    @Primmaster64:
    violence = good 
    nudity = bad 
    it's the American way!!!! 
    for some odd reason
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    InnerVenom123

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    #13  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @hydrabob said:
    " i'm sure what everyone else said here is true, but i don't have the attention span to read all of that, any chance i can get the cliff notes? "
    Hopefully there will be a gay character that isn't a stereotype. Also Wertham sucks.
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    hydrabob--defunct

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    @InnerVenom123 said:
    " @hydrabob said:
    " i'm sure what everyone else said here is true, but i don't have the attention span to read all of that, any chance i can get the cliff notes? "
    Hopefully there will be a gay character that isn't a stereotype. Also Wertham sucks. "
    wow it took that much typing to say that, think i coulda done that a lot faster
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    InnerVenom123

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    #15  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @hydrabob said:
    " @InnerVenom123 said:
    " @hydrabob said:
    " i'm sure what everyone else said here is true, but i don't have the attention span to read all of that, any chance i can get the cliff notes? "
    Hopefully there will be a gay character that isn't a stereotype. Also Wertham sucks. "
    wow it took that much typing to say that, think i coulda done that a lot faster "
    I enjoyed the length of the blog. :p It was fun to read.
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    Primmaster64

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    #16  Edited By Primmaster64
    @Shadowdoggy said:
    " @Primmaster64: violence = good nudity = bad it's the American way!!!! for some odd reason "
    Yes, that's always been like a WTF to me. Really shows how f-uped society is today.
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    hydrabob--defunct

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    @InnerVenom123:  i'll have to bookmark it and read it sometime
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    Shadowdoggy

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    #18  Edited By Shadowdoggy
    @Primmaster64:
    yeah, it's like Bristol Palin going on a tour to promote abstinence only education 
    you know, because it worked so well for her 
    o_O
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    InnerVenom123

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    #19  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @Shadowdoggy said:
    " @Primmaster64: yeah, it's like Bristol Palin going on a tour to promote abstinence only education you know, because it worked so well for her o_O "
    LMFAO!!!!!!
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    SC

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    #20  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @hydrabob said:
    " @InnerVenom123:  i'll have to bookmark it and read it sometime "
     
    The journey here is as interesting and insightful as the points it raises and makes. 
     
    Man, you need to stop going to Battles, my friend, your intellectual gifts and ability to process logic would be better suited to these sorts of threads ^_^
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    hydrabob--defunct

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    @SC said:
    " @hydrabob said:
    " @InnerVenom123:  i'll have to bookmark it and read it sometime "
     The journey here is as interesting and insightful as the points it raises and makes.  Man, you need to stop going to Battles, my friend, your intellectual gifts and ability to process logic would be better suited to these sorts of threads ^_^ "
    well thank you, but the battles were the thing that drew me to comicvine, i've found other interesting things while i've been here, but the battles are the most fun.
    also i haven't read enough comics to really know about things like this, for the battle forums i just find scans that support my suggestions, and use common logic, but maybe i should try and branch out a bit.
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    SC

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    #22  Edited By SC  Moderator

    I am going to rep Rictor as well. Best all around example of a character thats homosexual in comics in my humble but undeniable and objectively factual opinion. Possibly helps that he has been around for so long and had interaction with other characters prior to his reveal, that his wealth of material to draw from for characterization and plot points is large. Still. He is the earth character to Shatterstar's air, no pun intended... well a little pun intended. Is still quite a flawed character, flawed in the good, relatable way, rather than a Gary Sue. Possibly his current understated look helps. 

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    TheCrusader

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    #23  Edited By TheCrusader
    @RazzaTazz said:
      @TheCrusader: I am not sure you got the point.  Anyway there are just as many of those two groups of people here as there are in any church. 
     

    I got the point. I was simply making a point of my own. And i agree there are just as many pedophiles and deviants in the comics industry as there are in any church. They are both rife with them. Organizations that target/deal with children are their hunting grounds.
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    RazzaTazz

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    #24  Edited By RazzaTazz
    @TheCrusader:
     No I am still not sure that you do get the point.  The point here is that gay people are represented poorly in both comics and society.  There is no connection between being gay and sexual deviance or pedophilia.  There are many many more straight people who do those.  Referring to those two in a post about homosexuality misses the point
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    shatterstar

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    #25  Edited By shatterstar  Moderator
    @aztek the lost said:
    " my theory is if people don't push the issue, it'll happen on its own...as you said, it's a marketing ploy...so if people keep begging for gay characters and couples, the Big Two will keep making cheap attempts at them...but if it's just left to sit, it can happen naturally and properly...until then, hundreds of comics on the topic of homosexuality get published by other publishers and most of them are better than any mainstream ones ever will be anyways  but that's just my two cents (which I sort of bring up again and again every few weeks with the newest edition of this popular thread topic) "
    This. 
     
    Homosexuality is still used by the big two as a way to get some headlines, get some hype sales to books that would otherwise be lagging, and/or as a plot point. It takes characters like Midnighter/Apollo to help break the mold. That said, new and significant characters in those universes are few and far between so I'd imagine for a gay character to have mainstream impact it'd have to be a mantle character like Flash/GL. That'd go a long way to unraveling what Wertham helped set in place but I honestly don't see that happening anytime soon.  
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    Mercy_

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    #26  Edited By Mercy_

    Oh wow. Very well done. 

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    nefarious

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    #27  Edited By nefarious

    You can't be serious....

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    RazzaTazz

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    #28  Edited By RazzaTazz
    @The Dark Huntress:
    Thanks DH and to all those who liked the post. 
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    Mercy_

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    #29  Edited By Mercy_
    @Shadowdoggy said:
    " @Primmaster64: violence = good nudity = bad it's the American way!!!! for some odd reason "
    THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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    InnerVenom123

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    #30  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @Nefarious said:
    " You can't be serious.... "
    Funny. The blog seems serious to me.
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    RedheadedAtrocitus

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    @RazzaTazz: 

     I do like how you put into historical context the Code and issues of the day that led to the Code.  Fact of the matter was, like you said, the 50s put the US smack dab in the middle of Cold War crisis where there was fear of not only losing ground on the international scene to the Soviet Union and Red China but worry that they, they meaning the Reds, were among us (an altogether not entirely unfounded worry if one considers acknowledged historical materials such as the famed Venona Project Cables, for instance).  So Wertham in truth, while basing all his accusations on entirely ridiculous and subjective hearsay knowledge, was merely pandering to the Cold War rhetoric of his day.  In truth it almost makes one wonder if J. Edgar Hoover himself may have been in talks with Dr. Wertham about his proposed research, an entirely funny and hypocritical thing that could happen if there ever was one!  In truth then, homosexuality was as much a part of the purpoted "Red Agenda" as was subjugation and propagandistic infiltration.  Nowadays, the issue of homosexuality just isn't that much of a taboo subject anymore, at least in my opinion.  I do like the points you make in your little treatise, especially about what is missing with a major DC/Marvel character being gay.  So long as there is no issue of it becoming a heated political issue (i.e. "Tea Baggers" reference in Marvel), then I say its high time that it did happen. Although...wasn't Clark questionably gay for a moment or something with that whole pink kryptonite deal? I dont even remember now, for its been quite a while.
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    nefarious

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    #32  Edited By nefarious
    @InnerVenom123: So, this message is supposed to ban comic production? 
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    InnerVenom123

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    #33  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @Nefarious said:
    " @InnerVenom123: So, this message is supposed ban comic production?  "
    Um.... no.... it's about getting a gay character that isn't a stereotype or a gimmick... what blog were you reading?
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    nefarious

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    #34  Edited By nefarious
    @InnerVenom123: Eh, never-mind. I'll play along with this topic.
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    InnerVenom123

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    #35  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @Nefarious: I don't understand how you could have come to your earlier conclusion... but okay....
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    Mercy_

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    #36  Edited By Mercy_

    O_o

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    InnerVenom123

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    #37  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @The Dark Huntress: That was my reaction, yeah.
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    nefarious

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    #38  Edited By nefarious
    @InnerVenom123: It's complicated..
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    InnerVenom123

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    #39  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @Nefarious: I um.... I can see that, yeah.
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    RazzaTazz

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    #40  Edited By RazzaTazz
    @RedheadedAtrocitus: Strange that you mention the Teabaggers in Marvel because my idea for my next blog post was going to be politically motivated.  
     
    @Nefarious:  
    I think your concern over the banning of comics though incorrect is interesting.  After all many comic fans in the 1950s worried about the same thing.  But no I don't believe in banning comics or most other forms of media for that matter. 
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    nefarious

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    #41  Edited By nefarious
    @InnerVenom123: Reaction to what? I mean, I agree with the seduction of the innocent but....homosexuality...that is just normal. 
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    InnerVenom123

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    #42  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @Nefarious: ... okay now you've totally lost me. I don't even get what you mean when you include Seduction Of The Innocent in your post.
     
    What about Seduction Of The Innocent do you agree with?
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    nefarious

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    #43  Edited By nefarious
    @InnerVenom123: I'll have to think about this. This topic is pretty deep. 
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    InnerVenom123

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    #44  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @Nefarious: Uh. Cool. Maybe you could make a blog post about it, haha.
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    RazzaTazz

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    #45  Edited By RazzaTazz
    @Nefarious: @InnerVenom123:  
     
    My point was that in the 1950s that there must have been a few comic fans who blamed homosexuals, pornographers or others with interest in what was considered deviant behaviour, for ruining their fun.  But I am too tired to figure who means what at this point.
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    InnerVenom123

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    #46  Edited By InnerVenom123
    @RazzaTazz: Yeah, same here. Exhaustion.
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    nefarious

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    #47  Edited By nefarious
    @RazzaTazz: Ohh, now I undertstand. But, then again..there was a lot of ignorance and homophobia during those times. People used many scapegoats as answers to the causes of problems. But, using homosexuals and pornographers, and probably religious groups to blame for ruining comic book moments....that is pure ignorance and stupidity. I mean, this is just like what occurred in Nazi Germany where the Jewish people were blamed for the economic crisis and all of the other issues...nothing changes. Same crap. Different day. 
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    #48  Edited By nefarious
    @InnerVenom123: lol no one would probably answer.
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    Backflip

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    #49  Edited By Backflip

    Superb post by the OP.

    This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

    Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

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