Why isn't Hercules the strongest?

#1 Edited by Wolfrazer (7435 posts) - - Show Bio

Simple question why? He was the strongest even before Hulk was thought of, I just don't understand it. In all sorts, Hercules should be the strongest hero of all he didn't just get his power from some accident he was born with his power. His name literally means strength 
 
Also called Alcides Classical myth a hero noted for his great strength, courage, and for the performance of twelve immense labours 

2. a man of outstanding strength or size 
 

her·cu·les /ˈhərkyəˌlēz/

  1. A hero of superhuman strength and courage who performed twelve immense tasks or “labors.”.
  2. A man of exceptional strength.
 
 
He is a demi-god/god, hes held up the weight of the heavens and the world. So why, why, WHY is he not stronger then Hulk? This seriously annoys me so bad, reading of Hercules of all his feats of strength how he is the son of Zeus, saving the world countless times....its just not right that he isn't the strongest of them all.  
 
How does gamma radiation + anger= Better then god power from which, someone is born with and their name means? 
 
Don't get me wrong, I like Hulk but all points...he shouldn't be stronger then Hercules the man who was the first before him. All the writers really need to do is just swap the limitless strength to Hercules, and give Hulk a strength limit,  
  
 Or at the very least give Hercules limitless strength as well. Because there is NO reason, why Hercules of all heroes should have a limit on his strength NO LIMIT that is just wrong. That is the least, the writers could do.
#2 Posted by thestarguy (359 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think that you are going to get a lot of disagreements here. The problem is most likely political (both political and corporate), in the Marvel universe, both Hulk and Thor are "marquee" properties, but Hercules is not. By definition he should have no peers.

#3 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm fine with him just being a heavy hitter. When you start adding labels like strongest "aka over powered" I think it hurts the character.

#4 Posted by Cosmic_Hobo (60 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk being stronger makes sense to me. If you go with the idea that comics book characters are just a continuation of characters of legendary heroes like Hercules etc,then in many ways the super heroes are the new gods of the marvel world (er, not as in The New Gods from dc, i simply mean mythologically).

Hercules may have been the strongest there is in ancient Greece, but time has moved on, sciences sway has increased while religion's fades, so the concept of strength now has a more scientific avatar in The Hulk.

I mostly just pulled that our of my ass, but it feels right:P

Besides, Hercules is already the pimpin'est one there is, and the most awesome partier there is, he doesn't need any more accolades:)

#5 Edited by TheAcidSkull (18306 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

Hulk being stronger makes sense to me. If you go with the idea that comics book characters are just a continuation of characters of legendary heroes like Hercules etc,then in many ways the super heroes are the new gods of the marvel world (er, not as in The New Gods from dc, i simply mean mythologically).

Hercules may have been the strongest there is in ancient Greece, but time has moved on, sciences sway has increased while religion's fades, so the concept of strength now has a more scientific avatar in The Hulk.

I mostly just pulled that our of my ass, but it feels right:P

Besides, Hercules is already the pimpin'est one there is, and the most awesome partier there is, he doesn't need any more accolades:)

i kind of agree

Online
#6 Posted by KainScion (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer: hercules or heracles means glory to hera not power. ironic.

#7 Posted by henryarguelles5 (366 posts) - - Show Bio

I have no problem with the Hulk being stronger - I do have a problem with him being significantly stronger. The Hulk is Marvel's strongest physically - that's his role, and that's fine. But Hercules should be able to hang with effort, instead of being completely outclassed when the Hulk gets angry.

#8 Posted by Cosmic_Hobo (60 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read some of the more recent Herc stuff fairly sporadically, but I've never actually seen him fight the Hulk. Is he really that outclassed? I ki9nd of assumed her could hold his own for a while?

That said, I do seem to remember She-Hulk being stronger than him in her own series a whole back. Although that was the same arc that had her being stronger than the Champion and stuff, which never felt right. I didn't actually get to the end of that story though, so maybe it was all explained eventually

#9 Posted by Agent9149 (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

it makes terrible writing, you see characters have to have limits that will allow them to struggle to create a better and more dynamic story

#10 Edited by Wolfrazer (7435 posts) - - Show Bio
@Agent9149 said:

it makes terrible writing, you see characters have to have limits that will allow them to struggle to create a better and more dynamic story


Hulk doesn't have a limit to his strength, you just make him madder and madder and he'll get stronger and stronger. At the very least, the writers should give Herc limitless strength, doesn't make sense for him to have limited strength while Hulk doesn't. 
 
Kinda off topic: But is there a site or somewhere, where I can ask questions/suggestions to Marvel? Yes it has irked me that much.
#11 Posted by gravitypress (2069 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc's real strength lies in his character.His personality is pretty unique in comics.

#12 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8901 posts) - - Show Bio

If gods were portrayed canonically in Marvel Thor, Hercules and the other true gods would walk all over the likes of Hulk, then take his women. All of them. But marvel hates it's godly characters.

#13 Posted by seekquaze (619 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

I've read some of the more recent Herc stuff fairly sporadically, but I've never actually seen him fight the Hulk. Is he really that outclassed? I ki9nd of assumed her could hold his own for a while?

That said, I do seem to remember She-Hulk being stronger than him in her own series a whole back. Although that was the same arc that had her being stronger than the Champion and stuff, which never felt right. I didn't actually get to the end of that story though, so maybe it was all explained eventually

In most of their fights the battles have ended in stalemates. Something interrupts the fight with no real winner. The only definitive win Hulk has over Herc is when Herc was depowered as a demigod and stated to be physically less strong and durable. However, recently with the manhandlings Hulk has given Thor and Pak implying/stating at the end of his run that one of Hulk's punches was equal to several of Herc's than Hercules is supposedly really outclassed by the Hulk even if Herc was immortal.

IIRC, the She-Hulk thing has two issues to take into consideration. One, Jennifer developed her muscles in her human form which increased her strength in her She-Hulk form. Second, I think Hercules was still mortal at the time. Dan Abbot was also messing up the history of the infinity gems and the Elders of the Universe and in that story the gem was the source of most of Champion's power. This was later satirized in another story arc.

@Wolfrazer said:

Hulk doesn't have a limit to his strength, you just make him madder and madder and he'll get stronger and stronger. At the very least, the writers should give Herc limitless strength, doesn't make sense for him to have limited strength while Hulk doesn't. Kinda off topic: But is there a site or somewhere, where I can ask questions/suggestions to Marvel? Yes it has irked me that much.

Almost all Hulk fans I've talked to admit there is a limiting factor to the Hulk's strength. All but the most die hard admit that while the Hulk's capacity for strength is unlimited the motivation to get him angry enough to say...thunderclap a galaxy or punch out Eternity does not exist.

As for your other, there used to on Marvel's website you could email them, but I don't think they were ever very responsive. One or two writers still include letter pages in the comics. Your best bet is to go to forumspring. Many writers and I know Tom Breevort maintain an accounts and frequently answer questions. I should warn you that Tom tends to not take topics involving stats or who can beat who that seriously since he is bombarded with those a lot and often by rude fanboys complaining just because there character had a single bad showing. Many of his answers come across more as his personal opinion than Marvel's official stance. If you want your questions taken seriously its best to be polite and not sound like you are some fanboy complaining about Hercules not being the strongest there.

@Crom-Cruach said:

If gods were portrayed canonically in Marvel Thor, Hercules and the other true gods would walk all over the likes of Hulk, then take his women. All of them. But marvel hates it's godly characters.

I call it the Captain American syndrome. You have to have the threat be Captain America can either punch or is not totally ineffective against. A god who can twitch their nose and turn Cap into a mouse tends to prevent that. The gods can only be gods when their are aloof beings acting from a distance or battling other god-level beings. Even then a large part of it is the writer and how well they can convey a feeling of epicness and use other powers. Incredible Hercules was overall a good series, but one serious flaw Pak and Lente seemed to have was being creative with god powers and thinking outside of "Punch it!" Look at how they depowered Neptune, the power of Zeus that Hera supposedly possessed, Kly'bn, mistletoe bullets against Hebe, and Hercules' lack of creativity against the Chaos King.

#14 Edited by Wolfrazer (7435 posts) - - Show Bio
@seekquaze said: 

@Wolfrazer said:

Hulk doesn't have a limit to his strength, you just make him madder and madder and he'll get stronger and stronger. At the very least, the writers should give Herc limitless strength, doesn't make sense for him to have limited strength while Hulk doesn't. Kinda off topic: But is there a site or somewhere, where I can ask questions/suggestions to Marvel? Yes it has irked me that much.

Almost all Hulk fans I've talked to admit there is a limiting factor to the Hulk's strength. All but the most die hard admit that while the Hulk's capacity for strength is unlimited the motivation to get him angry enough to say...thunderclap a galaxy or punch out Eternity does not exist.

As for your other, there used to on Marvel's website you could email them, but I don't think they were ever very responsive. One or two writers still include letter pages in the comics. Your best bet is to go to forumspring. Many writers and I know Tom Breevort maintain an accounts and frequently answer questions. I should warn you that Tom tends to not take topics involving stats or who can beat who that seriously since he is bombarded with those a lot and often by rude fanboys complaining just because there character had a single bad showing. Many of his answers come across more as his personal opinion than Marvel's official stance. If you want your questions taken seriously its best to be polite and not sound like you are some fanboy complaining about Hercules not being the strongest there.


Well not really a fanboy of Hercules really I just don't see any logic in it, and it wouldn't really be complaining it would really just be ask why is all. Moreover why does he have a strength limit really. Out of everyone, he would be the last guy I expect to have a limitation on strength. Am now curious though, you say Hulk has a limit on his strength what is it?
#15 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8901 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

I call it the Captain American syndrome. You have to have the threat be Captain America can either punch or is not totally ineffective against. A god who can twitch their nose and turn Cap into a mouse tends to prevent that. The gods can only be gods when their are aloof beings acting from a distance or battling other god-level beings.

I'm sorry but that's just b*llshit. Read Norse mythology and Polynesian mythology. It's a bunch of badasses beating giants, monsters, drinking wenching and starting a murderous rampage because they can. There's nothing aloof or distant in their methods (except Loki and Odin). They were fierce barbaric gods of war and the elements. The right way to write a god is to show him fighting enemies at his level at accomplishing feats worthy of him. Have Thor create new mountain ranges with a single blow of his hammer. Have Ra block out the fun by closing his eyes. Have Marduk fight the queen of Chaos and Huiziptochli single handedly fighting off the demons from behind the moon or don't claim that it's the character you're writing (unless you have a really good and interesting reason why they can't do that anymore)

Gods don't get defeated by mortals. Gods grind mortal armies under their boot heels to dust then drink godly win from the left over skulls.

#16 Posted by Fifthchild (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer said:

Simple question why?

A couple of reasons IMO.

Firstly the Hulk is an original Stan/Jack/Marvel creation. Marvel Hercules is just a mythical character with a Marvel spin on him. Hulk became a bigger name and seems to have been settled upon very early in the game, if not from the beginning as being Marvel's premiere strong guy. If someone has to be it i don't see why Marvel wouldn't want to promote their wholly own character over someone with origins outside the company.

Secondly this is the superhero genre. Some weedy little nerd getting hit by a gamma bomb and becoming an impossibly strong creature who throws "Gods" around is much more in the spirit of the genre and arguably more appealing to most people than some God coming down to tell us how fantastic he is. Superhero stories usually have power fantasies for ordinary people as a recurring motif rather than reinforcing the idea that humans are lowly garbage compared to more fortunate Celestial beings.

Thirdly for whatever reason people often get carried away with the "God" thing IMO. The Christian concept of God is of an omnipotent, omniscient entity. Gods like Hercules however were just really powerful guys more or less, and certainly had their limits. Theres no particular reason that Hercules should be stronger than any other superhero because of his Godhood.

In 100 years maybe Marvel's Hercules will be much more popular than Hulk and Marvel might feel compelled to transfer their blessings to him. Until then however the Hulk is as good a beneficiary of the "strongest" mantle as anyone else. Obviously if you don't like the Hulk or really like Hercules you might feel differently.

#17 Posted by JonSmith (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer said:

Well not really a fanboy of Hercules really I just don't see any logic in it, and it wouldn't really be complaining it would really just be ask why is all. Moreover why does he have a strength limit really. Out of everyone, he would be the last guy I expect to have a limitation on strength. Am now curious though, you say Hulk has a limit on his strength what is it?

He's not saying he has a limit on his strength per say. Hulk's strength is POTENTIALLY limitless. As long as he's angry enough, he will infinitely gain strength. The problem is that psychologically, he really can only get so angry before topping out. Like during World War Hulk, he'd finally found a happy life and had it taken away from him, which made him WAY angrier than being hunted by the military or anything else had ever made him before. At the end, he discovered one of his most trusted allies was the cause instead, which put him in a whole other level. That's probably the functional max of Hulk's strength. It's highly unlikely he'll ever get that angry again, meaning it's just as unlikely he'll ever be that strong again. So while his strength is POTENTIALLY infinite, if there's nothing to MAKE him that angry, he won't get that strong.

#18 Posted by Cosmic_Hobo (60 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach: Mythologically maybe, but in the same myths the gods were responsible for creating the earth\life etc.

In the Marvel universe this is not that case,, Gods are powerful beings, yes, but they are clearly not capable of the feats you describe, so the legends around them are most likely exaggeration. Or, if you subscribe to the idea that Gods gain their powerful from worship and belief, then they have far fewer worshippers in modern times, and their strength has been reduced as a result.

#19 Posted by seekquaze (619 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

He's not saying he has a limit on his strength per say. Hulk's strength is POTENTIALLY limitless. As long as he's angry enough, he will infinitely gain strength. The problem is that psychologically, he really can only get so angry before topping out. Like during World War Hulk, he'd finally found a happy life and had it taken away from him, which made him WAY angrier than being hunted by the military or anything else had ever made him before. At the end, he discovered one of his most trusted allies was the cause instead, which put him in a whole other level. That's probably the functional max of Hulk's strength. It's highly unlikely he'll ever get that angry again, meaning it's just as unlikely he'll ever be that strong again. So while his strength is POTENTIALLY infinite, if there's nothing to MAKE him that angry, he won't get that strong.

Exactly

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

In the Marvel universe this is not that case,, Gods are powerful beings, yes, but they are clearly not capable of the feats you describe, so the legends around them are most likely exaggeration. Or, if you subscribe to the idea that Gods gain their powerful from worship and belief, then they have far fewer worshippers in modern times, and their strength has been reduced as a result.

Honestly, it depends on how the writer is depicting the gods. In some stories, mainly the older ones, gods were shown to be that powerful. At one point in time if Zeus had ever unleashed Ares on Earth with the armies of Olympus Earth would be doomed. Hera in one story was easily turning mortals into all sorts of shapes. Many of the myths, save perhaps the creation ones, have been implied or stated outright to be true. The gods were shown using a combination of advanced technology and magic much like the New Gods. It is only in the last ten years or so that gods were being shown as stupid barbaric immortal bricks.

#20 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

@Crom-Cruach: Mythologically maybe, but in the same myths the gods were responsible for creating the earth\life etc.

Like in the myths is how they should be depicted in Marvel, unless you have a very good reason. Marvel has failed to come up with one so far.

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

In the Marvel universe this is not that case,, Gods are powerful beings, yes, but they are clearly not capable of the feats you describe, so the legends around them are most likely exaggeration.

Which is something that I find to be a constant examples of poor writing present in marvel.

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

Or, if you subscribe to the idea that Gods gain their powerful from worship and belief, then they have far fewer worshippers in modern times, and their strength has been reduced as a result.

I donèt subscribe to this because it's a creation of modern writers that has no basis whatsoever in mythology and serves as convenient example of enforcing the "humanity f*ck yeah mentality" which I absolutely loathe.

#21 Posted by Fifthchild (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

@Crom-Cruach: Mythologically maybe, but in the same myths the gods were responsible for creating the earth\life etc.

Like in the myths is how they should be depicted in Marvel, unless you have a very good reason. Marvel has failed to come up with one so far.

Marvel don't have to come up with a reason. They aren't publishing "Mythology Monthly". They are publishing superhero comics.

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

In the Marvel universe this is not that case,, Gods are powerful beings, yes, but they are clearly not capable of the feats you describe, so the legends around them are most likely exaggeration.

Which is something that I find to be a constant examples of poor writing present in marvel.

Its not poor writing when your favourite characters are not shown to be as powerful as you would like.

@Cosmic_Hobo said:

Or, if you subscribe to the idea that Gods gain their powerful from worship and belief, then they have far fewer worshippers in modern times, and their strength has been reduced as a result.

I donèt subscribe to this because it's a creation of modern writers that has no basis whatsoever in mythology and serves as convenient example of enforcing the "humanity f*ck yeah mentality" which I absolutely loathe.

I honestly find it a little hard to envisage how anything resembling modern humanity could survive in the world you propose where there are hundreds of bloodthirsty rampaging Gods from dozens of Pantheons who "don't get defeated by mortals" running around blocking out the sun and reshaping the planet at a whim.

#22 Edited by seekquaze (619 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fifthchild said:

I honestly find it a little hard to envisage how anything resembling modern humanity could survive in the world you propose where there are hundreds of bloodthirsty rampaging Gods from dozens of Pantheons who "don't get defeated by mortals" running around blocking out the sun and reshaping the planet at a whim.

To be perfectly fair in mythology the vast majority of gods were not like that at all even if they were never defeated by mortals. The Norse gods tended to spend their time in other worlds in most of their stories and keep the monsters away from Earth. They also didn't rampage all of the time or at all. The Greek gods did not sit on their mountain thinking of ways to make humans miserable. Yeah, the occasional human would piss them off, but they spent a fair amount of time helping humans. Zeus, who while rightly deserving a bad wrap is overblown in modern stories, would not allow gods to run wild like that. Zeus was a bringer of order. Ra and the other good Egyptian gods were upholders of Ma'at or cosmic order. This meant everything has its place and doing things the correct way. Ra would continue his cycle of sun travel on schedule to uphold Ma'at.

Situations where gods mess with the cosmic order or reshape the planet on a whim tends to be the exception more than the rule. It is like what Anthony Quinn's Zeus said in one of those Hercules: TLJ films when Herc asked him to reverse time: "The other gods would go crazy if I went around changing time whenever I felt like it. Not to mention the stars and planets..." In the story of Phanteon Zeus restored the cosmic order by killing Phanteon with a lightingbolt due to the threat it poses to the Earth.

On the other hand, I don't go for the idea of "human faith empowers gods." If writers would write gods as more than one-dimensional caricatures this would not be needed.

#23 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@henryarguelles5 said:

I have no problem with the Hulk being stronger - I do have a problem with him being significantly stronger. The Hulk is Marvel's strongest physically - that's his role, and that's fine. But Hercules should be able to hang with effort, instead of being completely outclassed when the Hulk gets angry.

I do not know why people think this. Hulk is far from being physically the strongest and never has been so. Back in the day he had juggernaut, then Drax the Destroyer, then there are guys like Magog and Kurse (Specially Kurse) i dont think anyone would say Hulk is stronger than Kurse. Not to mention Thanos has always looked stronger than Hulk.

Hulk is awesome, i love Hulk I am a big fan but he sure as hell isnt marvel's strongest. That's just the catch-phase, much like the Invincible Iron Man, i dont think anyone would agree that Iron Man is invincible.

#24 Posted by henryarguelles5 (366 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: People think this because it's the way Marvel has set it up. He IS Marvel's strongest superhero. It's the limitless rage/strength factor. I fully agree that other heroes can come close, and I think everyone you mentioned should be able to beat Hulk, but in the comics, Hulk is the strongest.

#25 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@henryarguelles5 said:

@Killemall: People think this because it's the way Marvel has set it up. He IS Marvel's strongest superhero. It's the limitless rage/strength factor. I fully agree that other heroes can come close, and I think everyone you mentioned should be able to beat Hulk, but in the comics, Hulk is the strongest.

I dont know what you are talking about, comics clearly puts Hulk as strong as Thor given the fact that they stalemated in a hr of arm wrestle, and Kurse is 8 times stronger than Thor. There shouldnt even be a contest. Its a strong guy (hulk) vs a much much much more strong guy (Kurse) and no marvel has never actually put it like Hulk is the strongest character apart from the catch phase. Stan Lee think they are both similar in strength, Tom thinks the same, if writers themselves have said they are comparable how did you put a label on hulk being the strongest?

#26 Posted by henryarguelles5 (366 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Again, they are comparable, but once the Hulk's rage kicks in, he surpasses them all in terms of strength - look at World War Hulk, look at Maestro manhandle Thor and BFR him, look at Thanos state that he's avoided needlessly engaging the Hulk because of his strength. This is a forum about Hercules - not Hulk. And the fact is, Marvel has always written Hulk to be stronger. Stronger than Hercules, than Thor, than any other hero - strong enough to defy physics and shake the Earth when he walks. That does not make them less powerful, or greater, but that is the reason why Hulk is the strongest, and not Hercules.

No, there should not be a contest, but the Hulk's feats make him the strongest...and those feats come from writers that him supporting mountains and punching out cosmic beings.

And again, this is not intended as a slight against Hercules, or any other fictional character. Especially Hercules, who gets no respect, even though he's a better archer than Hawkeye and is the only character to ever get Galactus drunk.

#27 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fifthchild said:

Marvel don't have to come up with a reason. They aren't publishing "Mythology Monthly". They are publishing superhero comics.

Featuring characters which are supposed to be the gods of mythology as some of the prominent protagonists and characters. The first rule of good writing is to have a good reason why everything is as is. Otherwise your narration falls apart.

@Fifthchild said:

Its not poor writing when your favourite characters are not shown to be as powerful as you would like.

They aren't my favorite characters. So you have no leg to stand on for this useless statement. I'm talking about writing and research. Consistency in general, which is always the problem with the vast majority of stories featuring divine beings, none of their alledged divine characters feel anything close to divine and are constantly shown loosing to mortals they should rightfully be able to crush without effort

@Fifthchild said:

I honestly find it a little hard to envisage how anything resembling modern humanity could survive in the world you propose where there are hundreds of bloodthirsty rampaging Gods from dozens of Pantheons who "don't get defeated by mortals" running around blocking out the sun and reshaping the planet at a whim.

Then you don't know much about mythology. In mythology, the reason humans reach civilization is because gods teach them the basics to make it happen. And the reason the world isn't constantly being reshaped by gods is because there's a reason why it's structured as it is and because the gods have better things to do. Like preventing the Fire giants from burning down the world or duties like fighting the Serpent of Darkness in the underworld to prevent him from swallowing the world.

#28 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk simply has more fans, if both of them had a book and Hercules outsold Hulk 3 to 1, he would be established as the strongest within a year, tops. Herc just loses in the popularity contest.

#29 Posted by Fifthchild (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

@Fifthchild said:

Marvel don't have to come up with a reason. They aren't publishing "Mythology Monthly". They are publishing superhero comics.

Featuring characters which are supposed to be the gods of mythology as some of the prominent protagonists and characters. The first rule of good writing is to have a good reason why everything is as is. Otherwise your narration falls apart.

Thats not the first rule of good writing. Marvel doesn't have to justify whatever power level they decide to assign their versions of the Gods anymore than Garth Ennis had to have to come up with some sort of justification for why he portrayed the Christian God as he did in Preacher. Did they ever give a good reason why Thor can shoot "Anti-Force" from his hammer?

@Fifthchild said:

Its not poor writing when your favourite characters are not shown to be as powerful as you would like.

They aren't my favorite characters. So you have no leg to stand on for this useless statement.

Replace "your favourite" with "some" in that sentence and its just as true. Its not poor writing when someone makes an artistic choice that you wouldn't make any more than its evidence of poor officiating or corruption if my least favourite team wins an NBA championship.

I'm talking about writing and research. Consistency in general, which is always the problem with the vast majority of stories featuring divine beings, none of their alledged divine characters feel anything close to divine and are constantly shown loosing to mortals they should rightfully be able to crush without effort

Why should they rightfully be able to crush "any mortal" as you said before? Gods aren't the only powerful characters in the modern mythology of American superhero comics. Theres nothing intrinsic to the definition of a God that says they should be able to beat Superman in a fight. All i am getting from you is that you don't like it and you wish Gods were at the top of the food chain.

@Fifthchild said:

I honestly find it a little hard to envisage how anything resembling modern humanity could survive in the world you propose where there are hundreds of bloodthirsty rampaging Gods from dozens of Pantheons who "don't get defeated by mortals" running around blocking out the sun and reshaping the planet at a whim.

Then you don't know much about mythology. In mythology, the reason humans reach civilization is because gods teach them the basics to make it happen. And the reason the world isn't constantly being reshaped by gods is because there's a reason why it's structured as it is and because the gods have better things to do. Like preventing the Fire giants from burning down the world or duties like fighting the Serpent of Darkness in the underworld to prevent him from swallowing the world.

This is very different from what you were advocating half a page ago when you were arguing that Gods shouldn't be aloof or distant and that they should be stomping around the world "starting a murderous rampage because they can" and grinding "mortal armies under their boot heels".

#30 Posted by ntb1124 (949 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk is stronger because Hulk has more fans, end of story....

Just because a character has a basis in mythology does not mean they should be stronger in another fictional universe. I would love to see Herc as a more prominent role in the Marvel Universe, but Hulk is just more popular. Hercules comics are usually more entertaining to me though...

#31 Edited by Vitality (1769 posts) - - Show Bio

I look at "Gods" and "Superheroes" as labels for certain beings depending on their time. Much like Charlize Therons character in Hancock...how she says something like...they used to call us gods and angels, now they call us superheroes. They are one in the same to me. Just because a being is labeled a "god" doesn't mean they should automatically have greater power than a being labeled a "superhero"...in my opinion.

#32 Edited by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@henryarguelles5 said:

No, there should not be a contest, but the Hulk's feats make him the strongest...and those feats come from writers that him supporting mountains and punching out cosmic beings.

Ok leave the rest of the point, i agree to neither of them but thats besides the point. Show me 1 strength feat from Hulk that puts him 8 times stronger than Thor? feat by feat Thor has better strength feats than Hulk. I have no idea what you are talking about, can you back it with any scans or anything coz i have read most , if not all of Hulk issue. Supporting a mountain vs being able to move the world tree, overpower midguard serpent who was about the crush the earth, being able to resist the pull of a neutron star, nope dont see how hulk has better strength feats.

If you are comparing Hulk with Thor they have been shown to be equal and neither stronger. They have been in an armlock for an hour and neither could win, and that was savage hulk. Even after this if you want to argue about his ability to grow stronger i am inclined to agree Hulk can get stronger than Thor, however the character i am talking about is Kurse who's far out of both hulk's and Thor's league.

Rage is NOT limitless, nor does he have any feat to prove so.

And i do understand what i am saying is NOT relevant to the topic but i replied to YOU and asked you one simple question what makes you think Hulk is physically strongest in marvel universe when there have been so many others who have consistently portrayed to be stronger.

Also have you actually read about Kurse (coz i understand he's not a very popular character)? Unlike Thor he doesnt have extra powers he's just strong, but far stronger than Thor or BRB he humilated BRB when they met.

I love Hulk, i love Hercules too, and strength put Hulk above Hercules, but nothing that Hulk has done make him the strongest there is. Hulk got beat up by Drax when they met, rather handily at that and apart from strength Drax got nothing else. Hulk got beat up in hell against Thor where Thor wasnt using his hammer.

#33 Posted by Fifthchild (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@henryarguelles5 said:

No, there should not be a contest, but the Hulk's feats make him the strongest...and those feats come from writers that him supporting mountains and punching out cosmic beings.

Ok leave the rest of the point, i agree to neither of them but thats besides the point. Show me 1 strength feat from Hulk that puts him 8 times stronger than Thor? feat by feat Thor has better strength feats than Hulk. I have no idea what you are talking about, can you back it with any scans or anything coz i have read most , if not all of Hulk issue. Supporting a mountain vs being able to move the world tree, overpower midguard serpent who was about the crush the earth, being able to resist the pull of a neutron star, nope dont see how hulk has better strength feats.

Thor in no way or shape has better strength feats than Hulk. The Midgard Serpent thing is nice if a little mystical but Hulk has planetary stuff to compare or better it. The neutron star feat is good but if you look at it its more of a mountain style feat than a planet one. Hulk also has ridiculous stuff like destroying a dimension with a thunderclap and a depth and quality to his feats that Thor just can't match.

For a direct comparison in terms of feats - when Hulk was beneath that mountain range in Secret Wars Thor's "mightiest blows" with Mjolnir were perceived by the heroes as "tapping sounds".

Thor: "My mightiest blows--? Tapping? You were buried deep, indeed!"

And that was a Hulk who couldn't really get stronger with anger properly.

If you are comparing Hulk with Thor they have been shown to be equal and neither stronger. They have been in an armlock for an hour and neither could win, and that was savage hulk. Even after this if you want to argue about his ability to grow stronger i am inclined to agree Hulk can get stronger than Thor, however the character i am talking about is Kurse who's far out of both hulk's and Thor's league.

Rage is NOT limitless, nor does he have any feat to prove so.

In the real world sure - rage is not limitless. In comics its a different matter and IIRC there have been some pretty explicit quotes over the years about Hulks rage having no limit.

And i do understand what i am saying is NOT relevant to the topic but i replied to YOU and asked you one simple question what makes you think Hulk is physically strongest in marvel universe when there have been so many others who have consistently portrayed to be stronger.

Its hard for any character to be consistently portrayed as stronger than the Hulk when the Hulks claim to fame in terms of being the strongest is clearly his dynamic strength and his ability to get stronger and stronger. Of course Hulk vs SuperCosmic types is always going to be debatable but i dont think there is anyone like Kurse or Mangog who has definitely been shown to be stronger than what Hulk can become.

Also have you actually read about Kurse (coz i understand he's not a very popular character)? Unlike Thor he doesnt have extra powers he's just strong, but far stronger than Thor or BRB he humilated BRB when they met.

Kurse is very strong but he would get crushed by an upper end Hulk IMO. Kurse is somewhere around 2 to 4 times as strong as Hulk/Thor. The Savage Hulk pretty easily overpowered the twice as strong Galaxy Master powered up Abomination when he got mad and his dialogue indicated it wasn't much of a stretch for him.

I love Hulk, i love Hercules too, and strength put Hulk above Hercules, but nothing that Hulk has done make him the strongest there is. Hulk got beat up by Drax when they met, rather handily at that and apart from strength Drax got nothing else. Hulk got beat up in hell against Thor where Thor wasnt using his hammer.

Hulk didn't get beaten up by Drax. The Merged Hulk had an encounter when Drax had the Power Gem where Merged Hulk perhaps came off a little worse but he was explicitly holding back because he didn't want to get blamed for the damage resulting from their fight. At the end of the story when he was ready to cut loose Moondragon showed up and psychically shut him down.

#34 Posted by henryarguelles5 (366 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fifthchild: Yep.

#35 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34295 posts) - - Show Bio

People put far to much stock in the term "god" on this site

#36 Posted by PowerHerc (85153 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer said:

Simple question why? He was the strongest even before Hulk was thought of, I just don't understand it. In all sorts, Hercules should be the strongest hero of all he didn't just get his power from some accident he was born with his power. His name literally means strength

Also called Alcides Classical myth a hero noted for his great strength, courage, and for the performance of twelve immense labours

2. a man of outstanding strength or size

her·cu·les /ˈhərkyəˌlēz/

  1. A hero of superhuman strength and courage who performed twelve immense tasks or “labors.”.
  2. A man of exceptional strength.


He is a demi-god/god, hes held up the weight of the heavens and the world. So why, why, WHY is he not stronger then Hulk? This seriously annoys me so bad, reading of Hercules of all his feats of strength how he is the son of Zeus, saving the world countless times....its just not right that he isn't the strongest of them all.

How does gamma radiation + anger= Better then god power from which, someone is born with and their name means?

Don't get me wrong, I like Hulk but all points...he shouldn't be stronger then Hercules the man who was the first before him. All the writers really need to do is just swap the limitless strength to Hercules, and give Hulk a strength limit,

Or at the very least give Hercules limitless strength as well. Because there is NO reason, why Hercules of all heroes should have a limit on his strength NO LIMIT that is just wrong. That is the least, the writers could do.

I agree 100%.

It is my opinion that Hercules should start out stronger (at his base strength level) than any other character and also be able to increase his strength to any level he chooses which would give him truly limitless physical strength. Because he is the Olympian God of Strength, it would make perfect sense and be absolutely logical for Hercules to stronger than anybody else and be able to further increase his strength. I would LOVE it if Hercules was Marvel's strongest character and had the ability to increase his strength.

The fact that Marvel's Hercules doesn't have this ability and the Hulk does is because the Hulk is clearly and wholly a Marvel-owned property while Hercules, though known and renowned all over the world for his strength, is a character in the public domain. This means anyone or any company can create his/hers/their own version of him. Marvel has created their own version of Hercules but many other versions also exist. These many different versions of Hercules could confuse casual readers, lessen his uniqueness or lead to the other versions of Hercules gaining popularity due to copying his more likeable traits/qualities or by simply being misassociated with him. This is not the case with the Hulk. Marvel owns the Hulk and is the only company that can create or publish him or more characters of the same name.

Marvel gets all the benefit/profit from the success of their own original character, the Hulk, but with Hercules they wouldn't automatically or necessarily do the same, hence they've made and they will always keep their own original character their strongest character. Whether it makes sense for a gamma-powered, anger-driven monster to be stronger than the original strongman and god of strength ( whose very name is synonymous with strength ) is a matter of opinion and debate. From a corporate perspective keeping the Hulk stronger than Hercules is sound business.

#37 Edited by Wolfrazer (7435 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc:  I suppose, I just find it more insulting(other then what was said before) that they put a limit on him. Of all heroes...he is the very last hero I would expect to have a limit.
#38 Posted by PowerHerc (85153 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer:

Yes, I agree, it is an insult to Hercules. One of many Marvel has heaped upon him.

#39 Posted by Enyalios (142 posts) - - Show Bio

Every outright strength contest these characters have had have always placed them as a tie. Hercules and Thor have always been equals in terms of strength (sorry PowerHerc, here is the one point you and I disagree with lol) and that's how it should be. Even if you want to go back to mythology and try to cite anything there, its right. Thor was the strongest of the Asgardians, Hercules was implied to be (never stated as) the strongest of the Olympians. When the Romans learned of Thor, they either equated him to Zeus or equated him to Hercules. Before Thor hammer pendants were popular, Hercules club pendants were worn. Everything in mythology equates these two, the comics should not be any different. And every contest between Thor and Hercules in terms of strength has ended in a stalemate.

Hulk and Thor have always tied in strength contests. The flat out best example is the Defenders issue where they both stalemate eachother for over an hour. Anyone can sit there and argue that that was old Hulk or that that he has grown stronger now or any other story you want to tell yourself, but the fact remains they tied. This means one of two things:

- 1) Thor's strength rises to the occasion. Thor has always been said to hold back, and no real upper limit has ever been set for it. So in essense, as Hulk got stronger, so did Thor to compensate. Or...

- 2) Hulk's strength does have a limit, and its Thor's regular strength.

Either way, these two always tie. And don't bring up the Hulk smashes books or any other nonesense like that where Hulk beat Thor with his own Hammer. Seriously, Galactus could appear in that title and he's getting his ass kicked, but those who know better will ignore it as crap from a crap writer who doesn't know what he's talking about. On top of that, Hulk used a tactic and logic first made famous by Rulk so in reality, Hulk had to immitate his immitater to come close to a victory.

And while Hulk and Hercules have never had, to my knowledge, a physical contest of the sort, its pretty well implied that it would be about the same. The best instance of this one would be WWH when Hercules tried to help him. Everyone cites this as the strongest the Hulk has ever been. Hercules stood there and took every hit the Hulk gave him, was bloodied as hell, but still stood there. Didn't go flying away, didn't stagger, didn't take a knee, just stood there and took it, essentially letting the Hulk take out all his anger and frustration out on him. And stood there and took it. The one blow Hercules gave, which was done to protect Cho and his other teammates, knocked Hulk on his ass. So yeah, anyone with any common sense can reason they are equal.

So, Hulk=Thor=Hercules in terms of sheer physical strength. Let the hatemail begin.

#40 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

Because he's not in the Avengers movie.

#41 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wolfrazer said:

@Agent9149 said:

it makes terrible writing, you see characters have to have limits that will allow them to struggle to create a better and more dynamic story

Hulk doesn't have a limit to his strength, you just make him madder and madder and he'll get stronger and stronger. At the very least, the writers should give Herc limitless strength, doesn't make sense for him to have limited strength while Hulk doesn't. Kinda off topic: But is there a site or somewhere, where I can ask questions/suggestions to Marvel? Yes it has irked me that much.

If it makes you feel better Hulk at his strongest had to actually fight Sentry while Herc beat him like a red-headed step child. Also he was not trying to fight Hulk during WWH.

#42 Posted by Fifthchild (623 posts) - - Show Bio
@Enyalios

Hulk and Thor have always tied in strength contests. The flat out best example is the Defenders issue where they both stalemate eachother for over an hour. Anyone can sit there and argue that that was old Hulk or that that he has grown stronger now or any other story you want to tell yourself, but the fact remains they tied. This means one of two things:

- 1) Thor's strength rises to the occasion. Thor has always been said to hold back, and no real upper limit has ever been set for it. So in essense, as Hulk got stronger, so did Thor to compensate. Or...

- 2) Hulk's strength does have a limit, and its Thor's regular strength.

...or it was one story from 40 years ago thats been contradicted by pretty much everything else that's ever been written about them. The Hulks dynamic strength is notable by its absence - it's never mentioned anywhere in the story. 

Either way, these two always tie. And don't bring up the Hulk smashes books or any other nonesense like that where Hulk beat Thor with his own Hammer. Seriously, Galactus could appear in that title and he's getting his ass kicked, but those who know better will ignore it as crap from a crap writer who doesn't know what he's talking about. On top of that, Hulk used a tactic and logic first made famous by Rulk so in reality, Hulk had to immitate his immitater to come close to a victory.

And while Hulk and Hercules have never had, to my knowledge, a physical contest of the sort, its pretty well implied that it would be about the same. The best instance of this one would be WWH when Hercules tried to help him. Everyone cites this as the strongest the Hulk has ever been. 

It's not the strongest he's ever been. He got much,much stronger in the same story. Still he was consistently at a high level.  

Hercules stood there and took every hit the Hulk gave him, was bloodied as hell, but still stood there. Didn't go flying away, didn't stagger, didn't take a knee, just stood there and took it, essentially letting the Hulk take out all his anger and frustration out on him.

You might want to retread this fight. Hulk hit Herc three times. The first time knocked Herc down. His teammates occupied Hulk while he picked himself up and delivered a two handed strike to Hulks chin. Hulk then hit him twice more. After which Herc apparently couldn't stand up anymore because we next see him lying on the ground at Hulks feet. 

 And stood there and took it. The one blow Hercules gave, which was done to protect Cho and his other teammates, knocked Hulk on his ass. So yeah, anyone with any common sense can reason they are equal.
So, Hulk=Thor=Hercules in terms of sheer physical strength.
Indeed....but only before Hulk gets angry ;-)
#43 Posted by Walker696 (984 posts) - - Show Bio

I've had the same issue in my mind for a while (more so with Thor who was created to be more powerful then Hulk). Everybody gives good reasons but I'm going to touch on one that many forget. US Agent brought up once a long time ago that he doesn't believe that the Patheon's in marvel aren't really gods because of beings like Hulk, Sentry, Molecule Man etc being on there level and some being greater. Back in there time they were considered godly but really think about this, if Spider-man was alive a few thousand years ago I promise he would be considered a god too (matter of fact somebody used Spider-man as a reference to how strong and tough Asgardians are, see Dark Siege). So I think its less about them being gods and more about them being considered gods. We have seen recently that there are beings now that can hold there own against the likes of Thor, Herc, and Ares through science and technology. We may not like it but as the books go on I see this happening more and more, because while they are gods, they are written with limits while the other heroes and villains continue to improve and get stronger and more powerful.

#44 Posted by OldSparky (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Tales to Astonish featured Hulk and Hercules' first battle that I am aware of. Hulk killed Dr. Zaxon, who was using a device to drain his strength, and then fled the scene when the military arrived. Chased down by jets, Hulk lands near some railroad tracks and rips them up to hurl at the planes. The oncoming train just happened to have Hercules as a passenger on his way to Hollywood with some jerk who believed him to be his golden ticket. Herc, angry that his journey was halted, exited the train to investigate. The two titans clashed in what could only be described as Hulk giving everything he had and Hercules shrugging off his best efforts. After the two trade blows and Hercules realizes how powerful the Hulk is, Hulk grabs him from behind in a bear hug. The dialog itself is pretty telling.

Hercules: Verily, tis beyond belief! You think to subdue Hercules with naught but a bear hug??!!

Hercules: Now, for thine insolence alone must thou be punished!

Hulk: You-- can't-- break-- free!!

With some effort, Hercules escapes the Hulk's hold and then thrashes him around before depositing him into a stony hole and sealing it up. Hulk breaks free with ease, and hurls a huge boulder. Hercules catches it with ease, but before he can decide what to do with it, the military starts blasting with giant artillery shells. Hulk suddenly becomes worried and flees the scene. Neither has triumphed over the other, but the narration following up the fight clearly shows that Marvel did not show any favoritism to Hulk back in the day.

"Strange indeed are the workings of fate! Having displayed his power before an awestruck assemblage, Hercules is hailed as the greatest of heroes... And yet, after displaying his power, we find the Hulk fleeing for his life like a beast at bay!"

"Hulk is strongest one there is!" has almost always been old Jade Jaws' battlecry, but somewhere along the lines writers started treating it like gospel. The word of a raging behemoth with the mind of an intellectually and emotionally stunted crying out at a world he deems unfair because of the persecution and bullets and endless plots to get him somehow becomes truth. I know, some of you might say that Hulk was weakened for the fight. Clearly the scientist who created the strength-draining weapon had no clue when he thinks to himself, "His eyes!! The fury in his face! It-- It isn't possible-- and yet-- he's stronger than ever!!" His weapon clearly failed. But Hulk fans take heart, he didn't lose to the world's greatest hero... he was only chased off. My point is that raging Hulk was intended to be on par with Hercules on any given day.

While the Hulk's strength feats over the years have been varied and occasionally strange, some of them are not quite what they appear. The oft-referred to 250 million ton mountain range that Hulk held aloft? He merely braced a small portion of the mountain range --not held the weight of the entire mountain range itself aloft. Meanwhile, Hercules has moved the island of Manhatten, lifted and hurled back the rampaging Godzilla, and --in what has to be the most epic feat of strength ever-- shouldered the burden of Atlas, who is strength personified, for three hours without tiring before tricking Atlas into resuming his duty.

#45 Posted by seekquaze (619 posts) - - Show Bio

@Walker696 said:

I've had the same issue in my mind for a while (more so with Thor who was created to be more powerful then Hulk). Everybody gives good reasons but I'm going to touch on one that many forget. US Agent brought up once a long time ago that he doesn't believe that the Patheon's in marvel aren't really gods because of beings like Hulk, Sentry, Molecule Man etc being on there level and some being greater. Back in there time they were considered godly but really think about this, if Spider-man was alive a few thousand years ago I promise he would be considered a god too (matter of fact somebody used Spider-man as a reference to how strong and tough Asgardians are, see Dark Siege). So I think its less about them being gods and more about them being considered gods. We have seen recently that there are beings now that can hold there own against the likes of Thor, Herc, and Ares through science and technology. We may not like it but as the books go on I see this happening more and more, because while they are gods, they are written with limits while the other heroes and villains continue to improve and get stronger and more powerful.

Technically speaking, most writers that bother to address it do treat gods like a specific class of beings that are defined by more than just worship. There is a mystical component to it. So USAgent is wrong in that regard. He is right in that there are powers that can surpass them. To the ancient Greeks Spider-Man might have been considered a god. He might have been viewed as a demigod, monster, daimon, or some other broad supernatural term. Gods were usually gods because they were the most powerful beings who were worshipped.

Part of the recent trend is man with science can equal or surpass the gods. Another is in Asgard, the term god applies to nearly every Asgardian while the term on Olympus tends to refer more often than not to the more powerful ones. Another trend unfortunately is Marvel often has to write down the gods so they are someone Captain America can compete with. Not much fun is a god can snap his fingers and turn Cap into a toad.

Look at Ares. In his earliest appearances he was truly a god with vast powers (I think he created an island or continent out of nothing) that Namor could barely handle under water and only defeat with the aid of Venus another god. Later stories he was watered down, but it still took the likes of Thor or Hercules to defeat him, Ares still had some magical abilities such as possessing humans and walking invisible and could travel between worlds with ease. Were Zeus ever to truly unleash him it would be the end of the world. Nowadays, he is a class 70 brick who grunts like a caveman, swings his giant ax around, has no magic, and gets his butt kicked by everything and everyone.

#46 Posted by D3athstroke (4083 posts) - - Show Bio

He is

#47 Posted by PowerHerc (85153 posts) - - Show Bio

@D3athstroke said:

He is

I LOVE the sentiment!!!!

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.