How is hercules arrogant

#1 Posted by moneyshotz (141 posts) - - Show Bio

how is he arrogant i think he is selfless and brave
#2 Posted by JonSmith (4010 posts) - - Show Bio

Bad people tend to think if you can benchpress a building, and do so to save innocent lives, you're flaunting your power to BENCHPRESS BUILDINGS over the weaker man.

Don't listen to the bad people.

#3 Edited by moneyshotz (141 posts) - - Show Bio

But is he arrogant if so how is it cause he thinks he is the best i think he can be a little narcisstic and sometimes all about the fame but he does seem to be selfless most of all.
#4 Posted by boob (363 posts) - - Show Bio
 He knows how to crack his knuckles for a long time
 He knows nothing about women, but they still love him.
 He knows fashion
 He acts like a drunk Irishman
 Even pigs love him!!!
#5 Posted by Rumble Man (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

Arrogant?

More like confident

#6 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

Arrogant?

More like confident

definitely this

#7 Posted by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules is arrogant. He is constantly boasting about how great he is or what he has done to anyone who will listen. I admit a lot of this is deserved given who he is and what he has accomplished, but he has sometimes crossed the line into arrogance at least in the older Marvel stories. If someone else starts to take attention away from himself he would pick a fight with them because they took attention away from Hercules or were considered somehow "better" than him by other people. IIRC, in the older stories he would not always listen to mortals or obey orders when on the Avengers because he considered himself better than everyone else. He thought nothing could rival him in strength for no other reason than the fact he is Hercules.

The best example of his arrogance was the Avengers: Under Siege story. He refused to listen to the Wasp because she was a "woman." The villains got him partially drunk when he returned to the mansion. Both Captain America and Wasp tried to warn him about the villains but he refused to listen and got the crap beat out of him as a result. Athena later stated Hercules had a long history of such blunders.

So yes, Hercules at least in the past was arrogant. He thought he was unbeatable and above everyone else save perhaps Zeus. Make no mistake. He has always been selfless and brave, but it does not take away this fact.

#8 Posted by joshmightbe (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

Its not arrogance, its an accurate assumption of his own abilities. He's literally the most famous hero in the history of human kind, he doesn't have any reason not to think highly of himself.

#9 Posted by KnightRise (4762 posts) - - Show Bio

At any given moment he is either greater than or equal to (but with definite similarities) to a hypothetical boss.

#10 Posted by joshmightbe (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

When your name is an actual synonym for powerful you get to be a little cocky.

#11 Edited by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

Its not arrogance, its an accurate assumption of his own abilities. He's literally the most famous hero in the history of human kind, he doesn't have any reason not to think highly of himself.

There is a difference between thinking highly of yourself and overestimating your own abilities. Like I said Hercules has every right to think highly of himself based on his accomplishments. However, that does not mean he is invincible or automatically better than everyone else including fellow gods. His belief in his own invincibility and that no mortal or group of mortals could be a threat to him nearly got him killed during Avengers: Under Siege. IIRC, in Thor: Blood Oath one reason Zeus did not intervene in Herc's match against Thor was Hercules's own arrogance had become unbearable to Zeus so by having him fight Thor who was his equal in overall battle and how Hercules's drunken lifestyle had diminished his battle abilities it would cut Hercules down a peg or two. In Chaos War Hercules constantly accused the other gods of arrogance when every decision he made being the wrong one despite being literally all-knowing. One of the running themes in Bob Layton's Hercules minis was Zeus had to exile Herc due to his arrogance and how Herc had to teach the lesson to his own son. Hercules' arrogance combined with his narcissism often led to trouble for him. How many fights has he started or people hurt over the years do to some insult real or imaginary? Arrogance tends to be a bit of a more of a theme in older Hercules stories, but it is there.

A person can be brave, selfless, confident, and arrogant all at the same time. Hercules is one of those.

#12 Posted by joshmightbe (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: Zeus saying someone needs to be humble is like the Punisher calling someone too violent, or the Hulk saying someone needs to calm down.

#13 Posted by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@seekquaze: Zeus saying someone needs to be humble is like the Punisher calling someone too violent, or the Hulk saying someone needs to calm down.

Zeus is an arrogant jerk and in this case it is the pot calling the kettle black, but it does not mean Zeus is wrong especially given the other evidence.

#14 Posted by thestarguy (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

Its not arrogance, its an accurate assumption of his own abilities. He's literally the most famous hero in the history of human kind, he doesn't have any reason not to think highly of himself.

It's confidence, coupled with 3000 years of observing mortals and realizing that, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Hercules still focuses primarily upon living a mortal life style, even after achieving his full Godhood so long ago. He enjoys human pleasures, seeks out human companionship and champions human safety. He also naturally feels that he is entitled to the human perks of being Mankind's eternal champion, hence his endless desire and enjoyment of food, drink, and women. His self-image is that of a champion and protector of men, and that is still how he sees himself. The Forgotten One had similar issues, which was why Zuras exiled him also. But it is not arrogance, it is simply an inability to deviate from his own self-image, which is something most of us share.

#15 Posted by SC (13352 posts) - - Show Bio

Nothing wrong with a bit of arrogance. Depends how you use the term. I would say that Hercules is playfully arrogant. I'd also say he is actually pretty humble too. Hercules is great like that.

Moderator
#16 Posted by joshmightbe (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

Its only arrogance if you can't back it up

#17 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@seekquaze: Zeus saying someone needs to be humble is like the Punisher calling someone too violent, or the Hulk saying someone needs to calm down.

True, oh how true! Great point.

#18 Edited by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@thestarguy said:

It's confidence, coupled with 3000 years of observing mortals and realizing that, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Hercules still focuses primarily upon living a mortal life style, even after achieving his full Godhood so long ago. He enjoys human pleasures, seeks out human companionship and champions human safety. He also naturally feels that he is entitled to the human perks of being Mankind's eternal champion, hence his endless desire and enjoyment of food, drink, and women. His self-image is that of a champion and protector of men, and that is still how he sees himself. The Forgotten One had similar issues, which was why Zuras exiled him also. But it is not arrogance, it is simply an inability to deviate from his own self-image, which is something most of us share.

Then Hercules's self-image incorporates arrogance. Thinking you can take on a slew of proven strong enemies while half-drunk and against the advice of a skilled tactician is arrogance. Thinking you can defeat someone who is in battle your equal while drunk is arrogance. Attacking anyone who takes away any attention from your or for laying a hand on you when you are in the wrong is arrogance. Hercules has done all these things in the past. How then, is it not arrogance?

@SC said:

Nothing wrong with a bit of arrogance. Depends how you use the term. I would say that Hercules is playfully arrogant. I'd also say he is actually pretty humble too. Hercules is great like that.

Hercules is usually playfully arrogant, but sometimes he has taken it too far.

@joshmightbe said:

Its only arrogance if you can't back it up

Then in Avengers: Under Siege Hercules could not back it up. And even if you can bench press mountains does that make you so important than you can disobey the orders of your king or attack others for not immediately thinking of you as the greatest ever or taking attention from you for one moment?

@PowerHerc said:

@joshmightbe said:

@seekquaze: Zeus saying someone needs to be humble is like the Punisher calling someone too violent, or the Hulk saying someone needs to calm down.

True, oh how true! Great point.

Yet, in the cases I mentioned how was Zeus wrong?

Don't get me wrong. Hercules is a great guy and usually it is all in good fun. He can usually back up what he says and is entitled to his high-degree of confidence. But sometimes over the years he has taken it too far.

#19 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

Zeus saying someone needs to be humble is like the Punisher calling someone too violent, or the Hulk saying someone needs to calm down.

True, oh how true! Great point.

Yet, in the cases I mentioned how was Zeus wrong?

Don't get me wrong. Hercules is a great guy and usually it is all in good fun. He can usually back up what he says and is entitled to his high-degree of confidence. But sometimes over the years he has taken it too far.

You are right in the cases you mentioned but it was you who mentioned them, not Zeus so isn't a question of Zeus being right or wrong in those cases.

The point of my post agreeing with joshmightbe is how much of a hypocrite Zeus is when it comes to arrogance.

Hercules is definitely arrogant at times. There's no question about that. You cited Hercules' drunkeness being a reason for Zeus wanting him to get his comeuppance in "'Thor: Blood Oath" but, ironically, when Hercules fought Thor he'd already had possession of Dionysus' pig for an extended period of time and was drunk. Despite this, Hercules battled Thor evenly and had him on the brink of defeat before Thor resorted to his elemental powers to avoid defeat.

Hercules practically had Thor beat while drunk. Fighting Thor while drunk could be considered arrogant and if so Hercules did back his arrogance up. Either way, in this instance Zeus' desire for Hercules to gain some humility would seem to fall short due to how Thor managed to avoid being clearly defeated.

#20 Posted by joshmightbe (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: So you're saying a few errors in judgement negate everything he's done that is deserving of praise? Herc ain't the humble kind, never has been. Even in the oldest myths of him he was always boisterous.

#21 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (956 posts) - - Show Bio

He is not near as arrogant as some other older gods, Zeus is far more arrogant.

#22 Edited by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

@seekquaze said:

Zeus saying someone needs to be humble is like the Punisher calling someone too violent, or the Hulk saying someone needs to calm down.

True, oh how true! Great point.

Yet, in the cases I mentioned how was Zeus wrong?

Don't get me wrong. Hercules is a great guy and usually it is all in good fun. He can usually back up what he says and is entitled to his high-degree of confidence. But sometimes over the years he has taken it too far.

You are right in the cases you mentioned but it was you who mentioned them, not Zeus so isn't a question of Zeus being right or wrong in those cases.

The point of my post agreeing with joshmightbe is how much of a hypocrite Zeus is when it comes to arrogance.

Hercules is definitely arrogant at times. There's no question about that. You cited Hercules' drunkeness being a reason for Zeus wanting him to get his comeuppance in "'Thor: Blood Oath" but, ironically, when Hercules fought Thor he'd already had possession of Dionysus' pig for an extended period of time and was drunk. Despite this, Hercules battled Thor evenly and had him on the brink of defeat before Thor resorted to his elemental powers to avoid defeat.

Hercules practically had Thor beat while drunk. Fighting Thor while drunk could be considered arrogant and if so Hercules did back his arrogance up. Either way, in this instance Zeus' desire for Hercules to gain some humility would seem to fall short due to how Thor managed to avoid being clearly defeated.

Bob Layton's Hercules minis were one of the instances where Zeus called Herc out on his arrogance so he banished him. In Blood Oath Hercules was able to back up what he said after Thor somewhat humiliated him by twirling him around. Herc was so full of self-importance that he bullied Dionysus out of his pig, forgot who Thor was, and assumed he could defeat him with ease. Herc was able to gain a advantage of Thor this time around. It could have easily gone the other way. Thor and Hercules are even enough Hercules cannot mess around when fighting him if he expects to win. I think Zeus's point was made by how the battle initially went. The other gods did comment on how twirling Hercules was undignified.

I do agree with you that Zeus is a hypocrite when it comes to arrogance. Zeus is a hypocrite when it comes to a lot of things regarding nobility.

@joshmightbe said:

@seekquaze: So you're saying a few errors in judgement negate everything he's done that is deserving of praise? Herc ain't the humble kind, never has been. Even in the oldest myths of him he was always boisterous.

Where did I ever say this? Where?

The original post was asking if Hercules was arrogant and if so how. You have stated Hercules was not arrogant, but confident. Based on your posts it sounds like you think Hercules has never been arrogant. My point was that Hercules has a history of being arrogant. Like I have stated, Hercules is entitled to his reputation as a great warrior and the honors he receives. I admit at times it is difficult to tell the difference between confidence and arrogance. However, this does not change the fact that Hercules has had a problem with his pride at times. Some of his more disturbing character moments have been linked to it. These moments are generally rare and overshadowed by his heroism, but they are still there.

I do not intend to take anything away from Hercules. He is deserving of the praise he receives. But I will not white wash Hercules's flaws or character moments. I try not to do that for any character. Sometimes on other boards posters treat Odin like he is a god of evil. I defend Odin's reputation and decisions, but at the same time I fully admit Odin has more his fair share of moments of being a manipulative arrogant jerk.

#23 Posted by joshmightbe (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: He has had his moments of arrogance but that doesn't mean he's an arrogant person.

#24 Posted by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@Epicbeast3000 said:

He is not near as arrogant as some other older gods, Zeus is far more arrogant.

Very true. When Thor went back in time to Troy and fought Zeus Athena stated Thor was more noble than any Olympian save Zeus. I would always place Marvel's Hercules as far more noble than Zeus and in his own way up there with Thor, but if the Zeus is the standard you measure nobility by then the standard for nobility on Olympus then that standard is mediocre at best.

#25 Posted by joshmightbe (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: Also picking fights with people you can't beat isn't exactly an uncommon thing. Drunk and Bad decisions go hand in hand.

#26 Posted by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@seekquaze: He has had his moments of arrogance but that doesn't mean he's an arrogant person.

I admit the line is blurry between confidence and arrogance. A lot of Hercules's arrogant moments come not from battle, but from his behavior around others. I think SC described it best as a form of playful arrogance. I think you have to be to a degree to talk about yourself to the extent Hercules tends to. So I would say to a certain degree he is. It is only truly dangerous in those rare instances where he takes it too far. I also admit there are cultural differneces to consider.

#27 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

Bob Layton's Hercules minis were one of the instances where Zeus called Herc out on his arrogance so he banished him. In Blood Oath Hercules was able to back up what he said after Thor somewhat humiliated him by twirling him around. Herc was so full of self-importance that he bullied Dionysus out of his pig, forgot who Thor was, and assumed he could defeat him with ease. Herc was able to gain a advantage of Thor this time around. It could have easily gone the other way. Thor and Hercules are even enough Hercules cannot mess around when fighting him if he expects to win. I think Zeus's point was made by how the battle initially went. The other gods did comment on how twirling Hercules was undignified.

I do agree with you that Zeus is a hypocrite when it comes to arrogance. Zeus is a hypocrite when it comes to a lot of things regarding nobility.

I disagree about the twirling thing being humiliation, it was just another move/tactic in an evenly matched battle, but undignified; yes. In his drunken state Hercules did forget who Thor was, I agree. You say this battle could have easily gone the other way but I disagree - nothing was easy about this battle. Not for Hercules. Not for Thor. Still, and this is the point you seem to be missing, Hercules fought and essentially beat Thor (on a purely physical level) while drunk while Zeus and the other gods looked on.

Considering he would have clearly won (despite being drunk) if Thor hadn't used his elemental powers, it's quite unlikely that Hercules would decide, based on this fight, that it's unwise for him to engage in battle while drunk. In fact, this is the kind of occurrence which might actually serve to inflate Hercules' ego and sense of invincibility. This is not the kind of thing that would tend to humble Hercules' enormous ego.

#28 Edited by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

I disagree about the twirling thing being humiliation, it was just another move/tactic in an evenly matched battle, but undignified; yes. In his drunken state Hercules did forget who Thor was, I agree. You say this battle could have easily gone the other way but I disagree - nothing was easy about this battle. Not for Hercules. Not for Thor. Still, and this is the point you seem to be missing, Hercules fought and essentially beat Thor (on a purely physical level) while drunk while Zeus and the other gods looked on.

Considering he would have clearly won (despite being drunk) if Thor hadn't used his elemental powers, it's quite unlikely that Hercules would decide, based on this fight, that it's unwise for him to engage in battle while drunk. In fact, this is the kind of occurrence which might actually serve to inflate Hercules' ego and sense of invincibility. This is not the kind of thing that would tend to humble Hercules' enormous ego.

I did not mean there was anything easy about the battle. I meant Thor and Hercules are usually portrayed as so evenly matched that the winner of a fight between the two of them could easily be either. You cannot predict the winner b because they are so close together in strength and skill.

I admit I have never looked at the fight the way you are describing it which makes me wonder. Being drunk is usually held as something that makes people preform worse and that at least in part seemed to be what Oeming was going for. If being drunk does make Hercules a worse fighter and is able to fight well enough to defeat Thor on a physical level one cannot help but wonder why they are always so close when Hercules is not drunk? I suppose it is a flaw in the way the writer penned the story. What do you think?

#29 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

I disagree about the twirling thing being humiliation, it was just another move/tactic in an evenly matched battle, but undignified; yes. In his drunken state Hercules did forget who Thor was, I agree. You say this battle could have easily gone the other way but I disagree - nothing was easy about this battle. Not for Hercules. Not for Thor. Still, and this is the point you seem to be missing, Hercules fought and essentially beat Thor (on a purely physical level) while drunk while Zeus and the other gods looked on.

Considering he would have clearly won (despite being drunk) if Thor hadn't used his elemental powers, it's quite unlikely that Hercules would decide, based on this fight, that it's unwise for him to engage in battle while drunk. In fact, this is the kind of occurrence which might actually serve to inflate Hercules' ego and sense of invincibility. This is not the kind of thing that would tend to humble Hercules' enormous ego.

I did not mean there was anything easy about the battle. I meant Thor and Hercules are usually portrayed as so evenly matched that the winner of a fight between the two of them could easily be either. You cannot predict the winner b because they are so close together in strength and skill.

I admit I have never looked at the fight the way you are describing it which makes me wonder. Being drunk is usually held as something that makes people preform worse and that at least in part seemed to be what Oeming was going for. If being drunk does make Hercules a worse fighter and is able to fight well enough to defeat Thor on a physical level one cannot help but wonder why they are always so close when Hercules is not drunk? I suppose it is a flaw in the way the writer penned the story. What do you think?

I recall Hercules' that during his battle with the Masters of Evil's heavy-hitters back in the 80's he was doing pretty well against all but one villain despite being drunk. In this battle Hercules had actually already defeated Tiger Shark and had Mr. Hyde, the Wrecker and the rest of the Wrecking Crew on the ropes when he was grabbed from behind by Goliath (Erik Jostens) and then violently whipped and thrashed about by him. The other Masters of Evil then joined in and, together with Goliath, put a massive beatdown on Hercules. My point is; Drunken Hercules was winning in this case, too, until Goliath joined in, attacking from behind.

Maybe being drunk doesn't hinder Hercules as much as it would/does most others.

Maybe the writer didn't consider how evenly matched these two have always been before he wrote this story, thus allowing Hercules to practically win while drunk.

Either way, it's apparent that even when he's drunk Hercules is no slouch.

#30 Posted by seekquaze (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

I recall Hercules' that during his battle with the Masters of Evil's heavy-hitters back in the 80's he was doing pretty well against all but one villain despite being drunk. In this battle Hercules had actually already defeated Tiger Shark and had Mr. Hyde, the Wrecker and the rest of the Wrecking Crew on the ropes when he was grabbed from behind by Goliath (Erik Jostens) and then violently whipped and thrashed about by him. The other Masters of Evil then joined in and, together with Goliath, put a massive beatdown on Hercules. My point is; Drunken Hercules was winning in this case, too, until Goliath joined in, attacking from behind.

I think Roger Stern went out of his way to make sure Hercules's defeat was believable showing full respect to the character. I wish more writers would do that nowadays.

@PowerHerc said:

Either way, it's apparent that even when he's drunk Hercules is no slouch.

Agreed, I attribute it to a combination of him used to fighting while drunk, godly recovery from alcohol and his battle skill so honed he can fight well while drunk.

#31 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

I recall Hercules' that during his battle with the Masters of Evil's heavy-hitters back in the 80's he was doing pretty well against all but one villain despite being drunk. In this battle Hercules had actually already defeated Tiger Shark and had Mr. Hyde, the Wrecker and the rest of the Wrecking Crew on the ropes when he was grabbed from behind by Goliath (Erik Jostens) and then violently whipped and thrashed about by him. The other Masters of Evil then joined in and, together with Goliath, put a massive beatdown on Hercules. My point is; Drunken Hercules was winning in this case, too, until Goliath joined in, attacking from behind.

I think Roger Stern went out of his way to make sure Hercules's defeat was believable showing full respect to the character. I wish more writers would do that nowadays.

Me, too.

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

Either way, it's apparent that even when he's drunk Hercules is no slouch.

Agreed, I attribute it to a combination of him used to fighting while drunk, godly recovery from alcohol and his battle skill so honed he can fight well while drunk.

I completely agree.

#32 Posted by Z3RO180 (6709 posts) - - Show Bio

Cause he a badass

#33 Edited by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

@z3ro180 said:

Cause he a badass

Thaaaattttttttt's riiiiiiiigghhhhtttttttttt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#34 Edited by westy206 (774 posts) - - Show Bio

He's arrogant and its a good thing. There isn't many arrogant heros out there and it would be pretty boring if all heroes had the same personality. However when a boxer is champion and someone tells them they ain't that good they'd get shitty about it as I think I would if you'd worked so hard and sacrificed so much. Hercules is entitled to his arrogance. I wouldn't want him any other way.

#35 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

@westy206 said:

He's arrogant and its a good thing. There isn't many arrogant heros out there and it would be pretty boring if all heroes had the same personality. However when a boxer is champion and someone tells them they ain't that good they'd get shitty about it as I think I would if you'd worked so hard and sacrificed so much. Hercules is entitled to his arrogance. I wouldn't want him any other way.

Good points!

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