Hercules rant..

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#51 Posted by Enyalios (136 posts) - - Show Bio

@LeeSensei: Hey I'm game to keep going, like I said I am enjoying this.

2. True, except that there was nothing to suggest that Apollo was going to get manhandled. He has some pretty impressive feats of his own. Like I said he was pretty much considered perfect.

3. True there is nothing to suggest they weren't comparible, particularly the gigante that he kills since they share the same parentage and are given the same description. And yes Athena did slam Ares in the back of the head with a rock, but right before that she was struck by Ares' spear. The only thing that saved her was that she was wearing the Aegis. The rest is pure conjecture on my part but I always considered the fact that it said that Athena threw a rock at the back of Ares's head insinuated that she retreated and Ares moved on, at which point she turned and threw the rock. Again thats not expressly stated but that's what the description seemed to imply to me.

4. Anteus and Geryon were definately legitimate challenges, Antaeus especially being the son of Poseidon and Gaia and therefore being a full god as well as a giant, but Geryon is often called the mightiest of mortal men. It was Gaia who gave Antaeus his strength so once Hercules manages to lift him Antaeus lost his powers. Still this one is unique in the fact that Hercules always had to close in melee with him and fight. I've never seen a variance to this story. Geryon however was a little bit different considering no one could ever agree on what he looked like. I also find it funny that Geryon, a decendant of Medusa, is killed by Hercules, a decendant of Perseus. His myth varies. Most stories make passing reference it but th Romans loved this story since it brough Hercules to their side of the world so they expanded on it. Most stories however state that while Hercules killed his dog with his club, Geryon he took by stealth and killed with an arrow. Coincidently, this is where a lot of stories also speak of the pillars of Hercules, again stating that they were two stone pillars erected by Hercules to mark the farthest point of his travels.

5. You could throw Zeus in there as well, who lifted the whole of Mount Etna and hurled it at Typhon. Ares too, lifts a mountain in the story where he is preventing anyone from harboring Leto, Apollo and Artimis's mother. During this same story, him crashing his spear into his shield is enough to make the earth shake gtom Trace all the way to the Peleponesius. Geryon is usually considered to live on an Island though he is also called the king of Hisperia, usually considered another name for Spain so either works.

6. True, but again Menelaus is mortal and he was able to engage a sea god as well.

7. If Thor needed power amplifiers to lift Mjolnir how does the weapon get stolen all the time but the girdle is never mentioned? For that matter how did the dwarves get it to Asgard in the first place? Meginjord appears scarcly in in the actual myths. The reason why its well known to people who study these things is that is included in the Prose Edda which is pretty much the most popular book on Norse mythology out there. Even then it only appears in two stories. The thing with the Prose Edda is that it is a collection of different versions of the same stories. In the first part of it, the author actually links the Norse gods to Greek Mythology, saying for instance that Tror (Thor) is actually the grandson of king Priam. Odin is then described as a decendant of him. It then goes on to recount the tales as most people know them today. Another interestin sidenote, however, while "Thor" -sometimes- requires the belt, no mention of Thunor, Donar or any of Thor's other germanic incarnations seems to have this belt. Its why Marvel is not wrong in not including the belt prominately in their version of Thor.

8. Plato mentions the pillars of hercules, not which version or how they were constructed. I have told you three acounts of what the term meant and how they were made. There are multiple others, even one that states that they were actually three of them and all the columns of a single temple. That passage does not validate either of us, merely confirms that in the time of Plato, they were still called that.

I'm cool with continuing. No one is complaining afterall lol

#52 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enyalios said:

@LeeSensei: Hey I'm game to keep going, like I said I am enjoying this.

2. True, except that there was nothing to suggest that Apollo was going to get manhandled. He has some pretty impressive feats of his own. Like I said he was pretty much considered perfect.

3. True there is nothing to suggest they weren't comparible, particularly the gigante that he kills since they share the same parentage and are given the same description. And yes Athena did slam Ares in the back of the head with a rock, but right before that she was struck by Ares' spear. The only thing that saved her was that she was wearing the Aegis. The rest is pure conjecture on my part but I always considered the fact that it said that Athena threw a rock at the back of Ares's head insinuated that she retreated and Ares moved on, at which point she turned and threw the rock. Again thats not expressly stated but that's what the description seemed to imply to me.

4. Anteus and Geryon were definately legitimate challenges, Antaeus especially being the son of Poseidon and Gaia and therefore being a full god as well as a giant, but Geryon is often called the mightiest of mortal men. It was Gaia who gave Antaeus his strength so once Hercules manages to lift him Antaeus lost his powers. Still this one is unique in the fact that Hercules always had to close in melee with him and fight. I've never seen a variance to this story. Geryon however was a little bit different considering no one could ever agree on what he looked like. I also find it funny that Geryon, a decendant of Medusa, is killed by Hercules, a decendant of Perseus. His myth varies. Most stories make passing reference it but th Romans loved this story since it brough Hercules to their side of the world so they expanded on it. Most stories however state that while Hercules killed his dog with his club, Geryon he took by stealth and killed with an arrow. Coincidently, this is where a lot of stories also speak of the pillars of Hercules, again stating that they were two stone pillars erected by Hercules to mark the farthest point of his travels.

5. You could throw Zeus in there as well, who lifted the whole of Mount Etna and hurled it at Typhon. Ares too, lifts a mountain in the story where he is preventing anyone from harboring Leto, Apollo and Artimis's mother. During this same story, him crashing his spear into his shield is enough to make the earth shake gtom Trace all the way to the Peleponesius. Geryon is usually considered to live on an Island though he is also called the king of Hisperia, usually considered another name for Spain so either works.

6. True, but again Menelaus is mortal and he was able to engage a sea god as well.

7. If Thor needed power amplifiers to lift Mjolnir how does the weapon get stolen all the time but the girdle is never mentioned? For that matter how did the dwarves get it to Asgard in the first place? Meginjord appears scarcly in in the actual myths. The reason why its well known to people who study these things is that is included in the Prose Edda which is pretty much the most popular book on Norse mythology out there. Even then it only appears in two stories. The thing with the Prose Edda is that it is a collection of different versions of the same stories. In the first part of it, the author actually links the Norse gods to Greek Mythology, saying for instance that Tror (Thor) is actually the grandson of king Priam. Odin is then described as a decendant of him. It then goes on to recount the tales as most people know them today. Another interestin sidenote, however, while "Thor" -sometimes- requires the belt, no mention of Thunor, Donar or any of Thor's other germanic incarnations seems to have this belt. Its why Marvel is not wrong in not including the belt prominately in their version of Thor.

8. Plato mentions the pillars of hercules, not which version or how they were constructed. I have told you three acounts of what the term meant and how they were made. There are multiple others, even one that states that they were actually three of them and all the columns of a single temple. That passage does not validate either of us, merely confirms that in the time of Plato, they were still called that.

I'm cool with continuing. No one is complaining afterall lol

1. Except he doesn't have strength feats on hercules level.heres another example, peirithous heard that Theseus was strong so he stole his cattle and when Theseus fought him for it they admitted that they were equals and became friends.

2. I didn't mention zeus because I think that he was stronger than Hercules. I remember a story where hercules and zeus wrestled and either they tied or zeus won. Nevertheless, Zeus was stated to be stronger than all the gods combined so I can easily see him being stronger than Hercules.

3. Except menelaus holding proteus is more comparable to hercules holding nereus and peleus holding thetis. Achelous was the greatest of the river spirits.

4. Do they really need to mention it again and again? We all know it's there. The first time I read the thor myths the belt was one of the first things mentioned. Along with the gloves and hammer. Isn't the prose edda to Norse mythology what the illiad is to Achilles. It's the most common one.

5. then why we're they called the Pillars of Heracles? Not that it matters, heaven lifting is the be all and end all strength feat of greek mythology and only to characters can claim to have done it.

It's been a while since I've read the Greek myths. How do you know so much about them.

And Hermes and ares fought over a nymph.

Is it really that hard for you to believe that hercules was at the level of the gods... At least physically?

#53 Posted by Enyalios (136 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Niether does Zeus. With the exception of the lifting of Mt Etna to throw at Typhon Zeus does not have any strength feats to his name either. Yet its fairly obvious no one thinks he is the weakest of the gods.

3. Perhaps. Can't really say much on this either way because not much is told about them to come up with their comparitive strength.

4. Yes, particularly since the Edda describes it as his most valuable possession, even above Mjolnir as, without it and his gloves, he cannot use his hammer (though it never says why he couldn't use his hammer, just that he couldn't) so again for something that valuable to only be mentioned in two stories is rather strange. As an example, one story demonstrates that the giants knew of the belt's existance and forced Loki to have Thor come to them without his belt, gloves or hammer. So why wouldn't the king of giants, when he challenged Thor to feats of strength, make it a precondition that he had to remove his belt? And just for the sake of argument lets say that Utgard-Loki did not know of the belt, why was it not mentioned at all, particularly when he lost the challenges? And yes you could compare the illiad and the eddas as equal importance...but in the illiad no mention is ever made of Hercules, who should have been up in Olympus at this time, and in the Odessey, Odysseus encounters his ghost in Hades. Niether the Illiad nor the Odessey make any mention of Achilles' famed invulnerability either. In fact, in the Odessey, Achilles is wounded in the arm by Memnon, but the most common and accepted version of the story of Achilles is that, but for his heel, he is invulnerable. Guess you wouldn't really be a hero if no one could kill you. And again the Edda is a collection of stories, offering different and conflicting versions of the myths so again, what pieces you take out of there is hard to define.

5. They are called the pillars of hercules because, depending on your souce:

- Hercules erected actual monuments, whether pillars or temples, to mark the furthest point he reached

- Hercules crushed the Mountain that was once Atlas, and seperated Europe and Africa

- Hercules narrowed the straits and the pillars were set up as barriers to keep sea monsters out of the mediteranean.

6. Very true holding the weight of the heavens is a cool feat, though with all the variances in the myth, where some say he held the full heavens, others say that he instead supported two colums which actually did the supporting Sampson style, and still others say that he merely guarded the pillars since Atlas had long ago been freed of his burdon was merely tasked with watching the pillars, it really varries on how impressive it is.

7. I did find the story about the nymph. Again it was a boxing match that Hermes beat Ares in. Boy needs to stick with swords and spears and out of boxing arenas lol

8. Oh I never argued that Hercules was not on the same level as the gods on a physical level. My argument was that he was not the strongest of the gods and that he should not automatically be stronger than such figures as Thor and Hulk in comics simply on the basis of him being Hercules, as there is no basis for such a statement. I believe that all things considered he should beat either one of them more often than not in a strait up hand to hand fight, since the stories do back up that he knew how to fight and was at least marginally aware of tactics, but such victories would not come on the basis of strength alone, but by skill and intelligence. Again there is nothing to suggest that he should be stronger than Thor, and in a world where man can create vortexes and time machines and such, no reason why science could have produced a being who is physically on par with the the gods. That was my argument.

My real name is Hector, so I started delving into Greek mytholgy when I was in 5th grade to study the source of the name. At first I went no further than the Illiad, disappointed that Hector died (typical 5th grade reaction), but then one of my teachers put up a poster that had several monsters from Greek Mythology so I started looking them up and it just grew on me. I started getting book after book, delved into the other mythologies like Norse and Egyptian (my 5th grade teacher about had a heart attack one day he caught me reading Beowulf at lunch). I moved to a different school about half way through the year and one of my best friends there was a kid named Apollo whose family is Greek so it was a passion he shared as well. It just continued to intrigue me so I kept at it.

#54 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enyalios said:

1. Niether does Zeus. With the exception of the lifting of Mt Etna to throw at Typhon Zeus does not have any strength feats to his name either. Yet its fairly obvious no one thinks he is the weakest of the gods.

3. Perhaps. Can't really say much on this either way because not much is told about them to come up with their comparitive strength.

4. Yes, particularly since the Edda describes it as his most valuable possession, even above Mjolnir as, without it and his gloves, he cannot use his hammer (though it never says why he couldn't use his hammer, just that he couldn't) so again for something that valuable to only be mentioned in two stories is rather strange. As an example, one story demonstrates that the giants knew of the belt's existance and forced Loki to have Thor come to them without his belt, gloves or hammer. So why wouldn't the king of giants, when he challenged Thor to feats of strength, make it a precondition that he had to remove his belt? And just for the sake of argument lets say that Utgard-Loki did not know of the belt, why was it not mentioned at all, particularly when he lost the challenges? And yes you could compare the illiad and the eddas as equal importance...but in the illiad no mention is ever made of Hercules, who should have been up in Olympus at this time, and in the Odessey, Odysseus encounters his ghost in Hades. Niether the Illiad nor the Odessey make any mention of Achilles' famed invulnerability either. In fact, in the Odessey, Achilles is wounded in the arm by Memnon, but the most common and accepted version of the story of Achilles is that, but for his heel, he is invulnerable. Guess you wouldn't really be a hero if no one could kill you. And again the Edda is a collection of stories, offering different and conflicting versions of the myths so again, what pieces you take out of there is hard to define.

5. They are called the pillars of hercules because, depending on your souce:

- Hercules erected actual monuments, whether pillars or temples, to mark the furthest point he reached

- Hercules crushed the Mountain that was once Atlas, and seperated Europe and Africa

- Hercules narrowed the straits and the pillars were set up as barriers to keep sea monsters out of the mediteranean.

6. Very true holding the weight of the heavens is a cool feat, though with all the variances in the myth, where some say he held the full heavens, others say that he instead supported two colums which actually did the supporting Sampson style, and still others say that he merely guarded the pillars since Atlas had long ago been freed of his burdon was merely tasked with watching the pillars, it really varries on how impressive it is.

7. I did find the story about the nymph. Again it was a boxing match that Hermes beat Ares in. Boy needs to stick with swords and spears and out of boxing arenas lol

8. Oh I never argued that Hercules was not on the same level as the gods on a physical level. My argument was that he was not the strongest of the gods and that he should not automatically be stronger than such figures as Thor and Hulk in comics simply on the basis of him being Hercules, as there is no basis for such a statement. I believe that all things considered he should beat either one of them more often than not in a strait up hand to hand fight, since the stories do back up that he knew how to fight and was at least marginally aware of tactics, but such victories would not come on the basis of strength alone, but by skill and intelligence. Again there is nothing to suggest that he should be stronger than Thor, and in a world where man can create vortexes and time machines and such, no reason why science could have produced a being who is physically on par with the the gods. That was my argument.

My real name is Hector, so I started delving into Greek mytholgy when I was in 5th grade to study the source of the name. At first I went no further than the Illiad, disappointed that Hector died (typical 5th grade reaction), but then one of my teachers put up a poster that had several monsters from Greek Mythology so I started looking them up and it just grew on me. I started getting book after book, delved into the other mythologies like Norse and Egyptian (my 5th grade teacher about had a heart attack one day he caught me reading Beowulf at lunch). I moved to a different school about half way through the year and one of my best friends there was a kid named Apollo whose family is Greek so it was a passion he shared as well. It just continued to intrigue me so I kept at it.

1. Who did I say was the weakest god. I told you I remember a story where they wrestled. And even if they hadn't, Zeus is said to be stronger than all of the gods combined.

2. Hercules is actually mentioned several times in the illiad and the odyssey. In the odyssey, odysseus meets the mortal half of heracles, but it's mentioned that the half that comes from zeus was in Olympus with the gods. Well what's thors best strength feat.

3. They were called the Pillars of hercules because he is separated to continents. And even if he hadn't, he still has heaven lifting.

4. No. This is where we should take the most common version. The most common version is that hercules would hold the heavens for atlas while atlaw fetched the apples. But once he was free atlas didn't want to take the weight back. So hercules asked if atlas could hold it while he used his lion skin as padding for his shoulders and once atlas was holding it again, he ran off with the apples.

5. I agree. Personally, overpowered comic book characters bore me. Batman the most successful character and hes just a smart guy with expensive toys. Lol. He should be physically at their level though. To the point where any of the three could beat the other depending on the circumstances (in a purely physical fight. Thor should win if it's all out because of all his other powers). Still, going by myths I believe Hercules was more powerful than thor. Thors greatest strength feat was shaking the planet by hitting the midgard serpent. Hercules didn't that when he was trying to lift peirithous out of his chair.

Skill and intelligence... In marvel thor has him in intelligence. That's what really bothers me about him. I can understand hercules not being the strongest, but in the myths he was smarter. In the comics his military intelligence tops out at diversions.

6. Interesting. It started in grade 6 for me... Mostly. Incidentally I was doing a project on the illiad and the odyssey for my ancient greece unit.

#55 Posted by PowerHerc (78172 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a really fascinating and informative debate.

I love it! :)

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