After looking through some VS threads with him in it, and then looking at where Hercules is now as....as....I can't even say it! I feel as if he is a little underappreciated in both Marvel and DC versions. I mean I get it, hes in worlds where super strength can only do so much but even then in battle threads with other characters in H2H combat or otherwise he seems to lose a lot....which to me is rather quiet annoying(I know he can lose, but I have a hard time seeing that happen given his character and what he is capable of). I dunno folks, I guess I am sort of being a lil biased here and a little offended being that...the guy is HERCULES and he has been around since before comics were created or even thought of, I feel as if Herc is losing a sort of part of him that makes him special(not sure if anyone gets that). 
  
I'll admit growing up, before noticing comic heroes and the like...I saw Hercules and saw him as an awesome guy that was stronger then even Superman. 

I am NOT saying that Herc should just mop the floor with everyone....but the way Marvel/DC treat Hercules, well I guess moreso DC, Marvel was doing ok up until the made Herc into a.....a....I still can't say it but you should know. They just seem to treat him as just a strong man, and he is but...what he has done before Marvel/DC is what makes him not just a strong man...but it made him THE STRONG MAN. I mean hes saved the world and gods in myth how many times? Yet in the comics hes suppose to be like his myth incarnation, yet it seems that when he is put into a battle that just seems to go out the window. 
 
Speaking of Myth/Comic Hercules, they are suppose to be one and the same yes? Ok...so why is it, that looking up on the Vine seeing Myth Hercules vs so and so...Myth Herc won but when it was Comic Hercules vs so and so...Herc lost. If Myth and Comic Hercules are suppose to be one and the same, then shouldn't the feats from Myth also be included in the feats of Comic Hercules? Again...not saying Herc should beat EVERYONE, but....give some credit to him.
 
Edit: Eh was planning to go further, but i'll just stop here to avoid a TL;DR.

@Wolfrazer: Amen, brother!

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

@LeeSensei

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astronomy. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astrology. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:
But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astrology. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

So then how come Hulk has infinite strength then? Or...rather potentially. Either put a cap on Hulk at some point somewhere, or have Herc have infinite strength. Makes no sense for the God of Strength, not to have such....I mean its funny even his name is a definition of strength....you can't get any clearer then having your name be a definition.
But I guess it would be ok for him to be a planet buster sure don't see why not. To his intelligence, that does too bother me but then that is probably a side of him that not a whole lot of people know and they just seem to look at him as the strong guy.
Hopefully when he gets out of being.....being....a.....m-...m-...mortal...*shudders* the writers will fix some stuff about him...but thats just being hopeful. With DC though....unlike Marvel, they really shoved his character into the dirt and they SHOULD in the New 52 when Herc appears again...make him a better character then before cause what I have seen of their Herc Pre-52....just made me hang my head in shame.

Don't believe the fanboy hype. Hulk doesn't have infinite strength. He has incalculable strength. Classic Herc did too.

It's kind of funny. His most famous stories are the 12 labors and they're full of intelligence feats that get ignored. At the very least none of his stories (aside from 1 Greek comedy) had him being stupid. Impatient? Sure. Wrathful? Yup. Stupid? Never.

I love Wonder Woman as a character, but it always bothered me that Hercules (an icon of masculinity) raped and slaughtered the virtuous Amazon women including Wonder Woman's (an icon of femininity) mom. It was way to soapboxy for my tastes.

But the good thing about him is that Hercules' importance in the DCU is kind of like Joe Chills. He played a big part in one of the A-List heroes' backstories. And because he usually appears in backstory his list of powers hasn't really been cemented in. I.E. if he pulled out reality warping or time travel, no one could really call it an asspull.

But what we're forgetting is that being incredibly powerful isn't necessary for a good character. Batman is street level usually and he's probably the best character in comics (and he's not even my favorite). Joker is street level and he's possibly the greatest villain. Making characters overpowered makes their books harder to write. Like Superman.

The intelligence is really what bothers me the most about him.

Also, lol at Hercules who was probably the second most famous demigod/god having metahuman level durability.

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:
But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astrology. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

So then how come Hulk has infinite strength then? Or...rather potentially. Either put a cap on Hulk at some point somewhere, or have Herc have infinite strength. Makes no sense for the God of Strength, not to have such....I mean its funny even his name is a definition of strength....you can't get any clearer then having your name be a definition.

But I guess it would be ok for him to be a planet buster sure don't see why not. To his intelligence, that does too bother me but then that is probably a side of him that not a whole lot of people know and they just seem to look at him as the strong guy.

Hopefully when he gets out of being.....being....a.....m-...m-...mortal...*shudders* the writers will fix some stuff about him...but thats just being hopeful. With DC though....unlike Marvel, they really shoved his character into the dirt and they SHOULD in the New 52 when Herc appears again...make him a better character then before cause what I have seen of their Herc Pre-52....just made me hang my head in shame.

Don't believe the fanboy hype. Hulk doesn't have infinite strength. He has incalculable strength. Classic Herc did too.

It's kind of funny. His most famous stories are the 12 labors and they're full of intelligence feats that get ignored. At the very least none of his stories (aside from 1 Greek comedy) had him being stupid. Impatient? Sure. Wrathful? Yup. Stupid? Never.

I love Wonder Woman as a character, but it always bothered me that Hercules (an icon of masculinity) raped and slaughtered the virtuous Amazon women including Wonder Woman's (an icon of femininity) mom. It was way to soapboxy for my tastes.

But the good thing about him is that Hercules' importance in the DCU is kind of like Joe Chills. He played a big part in one of the A-List heroes' backstories. And because he usually appears in backstory his list of powers hasn't really been cemented in. I.E. if he pulled out reality warping or time travel, no one could really call it an asspull.

But what we're forgetting is that being incredibly powerful isn't necessary for a good character. Batman is street level usually and he's probably the best character in comics (and he's not even my favorite). Joker is street level and he's possibly the greatest villain. Making characters overpowered makes there books harder to right. Like Superman.

The intelligence is really what bothers me the most about him.

Also, lol at Hercules who was probably the second most famous demigod/god having metahuman level durability.

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:
But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astrology. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

So then how come Hulk has infinite strength then? Or...rather potentially. Either put a cap on Hulk at some point somewhere, or have Herc have infinite strength. Makes no sense for the God of Strength, not to have such....I mean its funny even his name is a definition of strength....you can't get any clearer then having your name be a definition.

But I guess it would be ok for him to be a planet buster sure don't see why not. To his intelligence, that does too bother me but then that is probably a side of him that not a whole lot of people know and they just seem to look at him as the strong guy.

Hopefully when he gets out of being.....being....a.....m-...m-...mortal...*shudders* the writers will fix some stuff about him...but thats just being hopeful. With DC though....unlike Marvel, they really shoved his character into the dirt and they SHOULD in the New 52 when Herc appears again...make him a better character then before cause what I have seen of their Herc Pre-52....just made me hang my head in shame.

Don't believe the fanboy hype. Hulk doesn't have infinite strength. He has incalculable strength. Classic Herc did too.

It's kind of funny. His most famous stories are the 12 labors and they're full of intelligence feats that get ignored. At the very least none of his stories (aside from 1 Greek comedy) had him being stupid. Impatient? Sure. Wrathful? Yup. Stupid? Never.

I love Wonder Woman as a character, but it always bothered me that Hercules (an icon of masculinity) raped and slaughtered the virtuous Amazon women including Wonder Woman's (an icon of femininity) mom. It was way to soapboxy for my tastes.

But the good thing about him is that Hercules' importance in the DCU is kind of like Joe Chills. He played a big part in one of the A-List heroes' backstories. And because he usually appears in backstory his list of powers hasn't really been cemented in. I.E. if he pulled out reality warping or time travel, no one could really call it an asspull.

But what we're forgetting is that being incredibly powerful isn't necessary for a good character. Batman is street level usually and he's probably the best character in comics (and he's not even my favorite). Joker is street level and he's possibly the greatest villain. Making characters overpowered makes there books harder to right. Like Superman.

The intelligence is really what bothers me the most about him.

Also, lol at Hercules who was probably the second most famous demigod/god having metahuman level durability.

Besides its rather odd, cause in the myth doesn't Herc and Hippolyta get it on consensual like? Yet in DC, they turned it into rape and its like wtf...but ya am hoping now since WW and Herc are siblings(or well half siblings) that they aren't enemies and are more like allies, now a writer just needs to write him again with a much better personality and the like, cause it don't fly with me at him being a jerk and all villainous like. Point about Superman true, but were just talking strength here is all...am not saying Herc should come out with new powers because 1. That would be really weird unless it was done in a specific way and only happen once(Chaos War Herc) 2. He wouldn't be Hercules anymore, he would just be another Superhero with different powers. But ya...his durability is....rather strange. He is a god, yet he has metahuman durability?? Very strange indeed.

I think having Herc as a jerk would be fine. He was born in a very different time after all. And it would distance him from Marvels Herc. He'd still be Hercules with other powers. Thors still Thor after all.

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:
But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astrology. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

So then how come Hulk has infinite strength then? Or...rather potentially. Either put a cap on Hulk at some point somewhere, or have Herc have infinite strength. Makes no sense for the God of Strength, not to have such....I mean its funny even his name is a definition of strength....you can't get any clearer then having your name be a definition.

But I guess it would be ok for him to be a planet buster sure don't see why not. To his intelligence, that does too bother me but then that is probably a side of him that not a whole lot of people know and they just seem to look at him as the strong guy.

Hopefully when he gets out of being.....being....a.....m-...m-...mortal...*shudders* the writers will fix some stuff about him...but thats just being hopeful. With DC though....unlike Marvel, they really shoved his character into the dirt and they SHOULD in the New 52 when Herc appears again...make him a better character then before cause what I have seen of their Herc Pre-52....just made me hang my head in shame.

Don't believe the fanboy hype. Hulk doesn't have infinite strength. He has incalculable strength. Classic Herc did too.

It's kind of funny. His most famous stories are the 12 labors and they're full of intelligence feats that get ignored. At the very least none of his stories (aside from 1 Greek comedy) had him being stupid. Impatient? Sure. Wrathful? Yup. Stupid? Never.

I love Wonder Woman as a character, but it always bothered me that Hercules (an icon of masculinity) raped and slaughtered the virtuous Amazon women including Wonder Woman's (an icon of femininity) mom. It was way to soapboxy for my tastes.

But the good thing about him is that Hercules' importance in the DCU is kind of like Joe Chills. He played a big part in one of the A-List heroes' backstories. And because he usually appears in backstory his list of powers hasn't really been cemented in. I.E. if he pulled out reality warping or time travel, no one could really call it an asspull.

But what we're forgetting is that being incredibly powerful isn't necessary for a good character. Batman is street level usually and he's probably the best character in comics (and he's not even my favorite). Joker is street level and he's possibly the greatest villain. Making characters overpowered makes there books harder to right. Like Superman.

The intelligence is really what bothers me the most about him.

Also, lol at Hercules who was probably the second most famous demigod/god having metahuman level durability.

Besides its rather odd, cause in the myth doesn't Herc and Hippolyta get it on consensual like? Yet in DC, they turned it into rape and its like wtf...but ya am hoping now since WW and Herc are siblings(or well half siblings) that they aren't enemies and are more like allies, now a writer just needs to write him again with a much better personality and the like, cause it don't fly with me at him being a jerk and all villainous like. Point about Superman true, but were just talking strength here is all...am not saying Herc should come out with new powers because 1. That would be really weird unless it was done in a specific way and only happen once(Chaos War Herc) 2. He wouldn't be Hercules anymore, he would just be another Superhero with different powers. But ya...his durability is....rather strange. He is a god, yet he has metahuman durability?? Very strange indeed.

I think having Herc as a jerk would be fine. He was born in a very different time after all. And it would distance him from Marvels Herc. He'd still be Hercules with other powers. Thors still Thor after all.

i do not anything about the DC version , but i love the Marvel version, first read his adventures during his incredible hercules run and been a fan ever since . it like combining hulk and thor . hercules is awesome

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:
But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astrology. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

So then how come Hulk has infinite strength then? Or...rather potentially. Either put a cap on Hulk at some point somewhere, or have Herc have infinite strength. Makes no sense for the God of Strength, not to have such....I mean its funny even his name is a definition of strength....you can't get any clearer then having your name be a definition.

But I guess it would be ok for him to be a planet buster sure don't see why not. To his intelligence, that does too bother me but then that is probably a side of him that not a whole lot of people know and they just seem to look at him as the strong guy.

Hopefully when he gets out of being.....being....a.....m-...m-...mortal...*shudders* the writers will fix some stuff about him...but thats just being hopeful. With DC though....unlike Marvel, they really shoved his character into the dirt and they SHOULD in the New 52 when Herc appears again...make him a better character then before cause what I have seen of their Herc Pre-52....just made me hang my head in shame.

Don't believe the fanboy hype. Hulk doesn't have infinite strength. He has incalculable strength. Classic Herc did too.

It's kind of funny. His most famous stories are the 12 labors and they're full of intelligence feats that get ignored. At the very least none of his stories (aside from 1 Greek comedy) had him being stupid. Impatient? Sure. Wrathful? Yup. Stupid? Never.

I love Wonder Woman as a character, but it always bothered me that Hercules (an icon of masculinity) raped and slaughtered the virtuous Amazon women including Wonder Woman's (an icon of femininity) mom. It was way to soapboxy for my tastes.

But the good thing about him is that Hercules' importance in the DCU is kind of like Joe Chills. He played a big part in one of the A-List heroes' backstories. And because he usually appears in backstory his list of powers hasn't really been cemented in. I.E. if he pulled out reality warping or time travel, no one could really call it an asspull.

But what we're forgetting is that being incredibly powerful isn't necessary for a good character. Batman is street level usually and he's probably the best character in comics (and he's not even my favorite). Joker is street level and he's possibly the greatest villain. Making characters overpowered makes there books harder to right. Like Superman.

The intelligence is really what bothers me the most about him.

Also, lol at Hercules who was probably the second most famous demigod/god having metahuman level durability.

Besides its rather odd, cause in the myth doesn't Herc and Hippolyta get it on consensual like? Yet in DC, they turned it into rape and its like wtf...but ya am hoping now since WW and Herc are siblings(or well half siblings) that they aren't enemies and are more like allies, now a writer just needs to write him again with a much better personality and the like, cause it don't fly with me at him being a jerk and all villainous like. Point about Superman true, but were just talking strength here is all...am not saying Herc should come out with new powers because 1. That would be really weird unless it was done in a specific way and only happen once(Chaos War Herc) 2. He wouldn't be Hercules anymore, he would just be another Superhero with different powers. But ya...his durability is....rather strange. He is a god, yet he has metahuman durability?? Very strange indeed.

I think having Herc as a jerk would be fine. He was born in a very different time after all. And it would distance him from Marvels Herc. He'd still be Hercules with other powers. Thors still Thor after all.

Point, but not saying he has to have exact personality as Marvel's Herc. Just have it not be the personality of an A-hole, who goes around and rapes women is all. Ya he would be Hercules, but what makes Hercules is his strength....besides he has survived this far so why would he need other powers? :P

Why would he need infinite strength? When I mentioned him having other powers I was referring to DC Herc who shows up every now an then in Wonder Woman and has a wider range of powers. I remember seeing him teleport at one point. And in the Wonder Girl miniseries he was shape shifting.'

Yeah. I don't mean that he should be a rapist. I meant that him being a jerk like Classic Namor would be okay. An Anti-Hero type of character.'

Interestingly enough, in the New 52 the Amazons are rapists and murderers. I wonder what this Superman would tell them.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/41083/1236897-kingdomcome_super.jpg

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

@PowerHerc: Yep, you can add something if you like. Anyone can, this rant is kinda open.

@LeeSensei

said:
But hes suppose to be that....that is his character, and isn't comic Herc suppose

Myth Herc was a lightning timer with infinite strength. Making him that powerful in the comics would take some of the shine off of guys like the Hulk. It's understandable that they'd do it imo.

to be myth Herc anyway?...They ripped away part of his character then, which that just annoys me even more. I guess you can take that first bit away...I guess, but they shouldn't neglect the feats that he done.

If they show that he's a lighting timer I'll be okay with that. But also remember that the original Hercules was immortal. If characters be are two powerful, how will they be challenged. They made Thor and Odin far more powerful then they were in the myths. Also, Hercules in the myths was pretty smart He was a cunning strategist who was taught by the greatest teachers in Greece and learned Astronomy from a God. In the comics he's usually pretty dumb with occasional moments of wisdom. I wouldn't mind If they made him more intelligence. But his strength needed to be dialed down.

Why does his strength need to be dialed down? I get that Marvel/DC have their strength poster boys but....the writers clearly overlook that Herc is the god of strength. Its not that the other characters shouldn't be there, but if they have strong characters already then why bother having Hercules at all if they aren't gonna write him as he should be? I mean they have included his labors, both companies have....so if he is suppose to be like his myth counterpart the feats that he has from myth should apply. I don't mind that his intelligence is off, or his speed...but his strength should be where it should really be.

Because infinite strength is way to much. Think about it. Thunder clapping Galaxies away, punching through time and space. There's a point when a superpower gets so powerful that it becomes ridiculous. Just look at the Flash characters and PC Supes.

If Hercules is a planet buster I'll be okay with that. It's true to the myths and at the same time not ridiculous. If he has super speed, intelligence, skill, and maybe even flight and/or teleportation that should be fine. But infinite strength? No. I can understand why they wouldn't want that.

They have Herc to be a foil for Thor. Plus, Stan Lee was going to use Herc and the Greek Myths first, but wanted to go with more obscure Gods like the Norse Pantheon instead of the more well known Greek ones.

Classic Herc had planetary strength. And I'm fine with that. I'm more bothered by his intelligence honestly. Despite modern media portrayals, Hercules wasn't dumb. He was a cunning strategist, a tactician and manipulator who was taught by the best in Greece in philosophy, the arts, medicine and even astrology. I don't expect him to be a super genius, but sometimes the stupidity of Hercules in marvel is facepalm worthy. In one comic he tells Zeus that 'even he knows what a diversion is' as if it was a feat. His rare occasions of wisdom like in the first iHerc arc and in Avengers Academy are breathers from that. In the myths he was a notch below Odysseus in intelligence. His Intelligence isn't just off. It's almost non-existant.

So then how come Hulk has infinite strength then? Or...rather potentially. Either put a cap on Hulk at some point somewhere, or have Herc have infinite strength. Makes no sense for the God of Strength, not to have such....I mean its funny even his name is a definition of strength....you can't get any clearer then having your name be a definition.

But I guess it would be ok for him to be a planet buster sure don't see why not. To his intelligence, that does too bother me but then that is probably a side of him that not a whole lot of people know and they just seem to look at him as the strong guy.

Hopefully when he gets out of being.....being....a.....m-...m-...mortal...*shudders* the writers will fix some stuff about him...but thats just being hopeful. With DC though....unlike Marvel, they really shoved his character into the dirt and they SHOULD in the New 52 when Herc appears again...make him a better character then before cause what I have seen of their Herc Pre-52....just made me hang my head in shame.

Don't believe the fanboy hype. Hulk doesn't have infinite strength. He has incalculable strength. Classic Herc did too.

It's kind of funny. His most famous stories are the 12 labors and they're full of intelligence feats that get ignored. At the very least none of his stories (aside from 1 Greek comedy) had him being stupid. Impatient? Sure. Wrathful? Yup. Stupid? Never.

I love Wonder Woman as a character, but it always bothered me that Hercules (an icon of masculinity) raped and slaughtered the virtuous Amazon women including Wonder Woman's (an icon of femininity) mom. It was way to soapboxy for my tastes.

But the good thing about him is that Hercules' importance in the DCU is kind of like Joe Chills. He played a big part in one of the A-List heroes' backstories. And because he usually appears in backstory his list of powers hasn't really been cemented in. I.E. if he pulled out reality warping or time travel, no one could really call it an asspull.

But what we're forgetting is that being incredibly powerful isn't necessary for a good character. Batman is street level usually and he's probably the best character in comics (and he's not even my favorite). Joker is street level and he's possibly the greatest villain. Making characters overpowered makes there books harder to right. Like Superman.

The intelligence is really what bothers me the most about him.

Also, lol at Hercules who was probably the second most famous demigod/god having metahuman level durability.

Besides its rather odd, cause in the myth doesn't Herc and Hippolyta get it on consensual like? Yet in DC, they turned it into rape and its like wtf...but ya am hoping now since WW and Herc are siblings(or well half siblings) that they aren't enemies and are more like allies, now a writer just needs to write him again with a much better personality and the like, cause it don't fly with me at him being a jerk and all villainous like. Point about Superman true, but were just talking strength here is all...am not saying Herc should come out with new powers because 1. That would be really weird unless it was done in a specific way and only happen once(Chaos War Herc) 2. He wouldn't be Hercules anymore, he would just be another Superhero with different powers. But ya...his durability is....rather strange. He is a god, yet he has metahuman durability?? Very strange indeed.

I think having Herc as a jerk would be fine. He was born in a very different time after all. And it would distance him from Marvels Herc. He'd still be Hercules with other powers. Thors still Thor after all.

Point, but not saying he has to have exact personality as Marvel's Herc. Just have it not be the personality of an A-hole, who goes around and rapes women is all. Ya he would be Hercules, but what makes Hercules is his strength....besides he has survived this far so why would he need other powers? :P

Why would he need infinite strength? When I mentioned him having other powers I was referring to DC Herc who shows up every now an then in Wonder Woman and has a wider range of powers. I remember seeing him teleport at one point. And in the Wonder Girl miniseries he was shape shifting.'

Yeah. I don't mean that he should be a rapist. I meant that him being a jerk like Classic Namor would be okay. An Anti-Hero type of character.'

Interestingly enough, in the New 52 the Amazons are rapists and murderers. I wonder what this Superman would tell them.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/41083/1236897-kingdomcome_super.jpg

I can't help but wonder how powerful he'd be if Stan hadn't. Chosen thor.

Hulk doesn't have infinite anger so unless he thunderclaps universes away I wont believe it.

They should stop drawing him with a mini skirt and use a modern type costume like the eartj-829 black,red and gold one he wore at one time. The green one he wore when he was de-powerd was ok except for the color but was still much better than the girly one. It makes little sense him wearing an anachronistic man-skirt with no shirt and leather fishnets. He looks ridiculous.

Planets are small in the grand scheme of things.

@LeeSensei said:

Planets are small in the grand scheme of things.

That is true. Everything is relative.

Still, a human-sized being lifting/moving/supporting the weight of a planet is quite an impressive feat of strength.

@PowerHerc said:

@LeeSensei said:

Planets are small in the grand scheme of things.

That is true. Everything is relative.

Still, a human-sized being lifting/moving/supporting the weight of a planet is quite an impressive feat of strength.

Yes. It is impressive. I was just pointing out that planet busting doesn't mean they have infinite strength.

@LeeSensei said:

@PowerHerc said:

@LeeSensei said:

Planets are small in the grand scheme of things.

That is true. Everything is relative.

Still, a human-sized being lifting/moving/supporting the weight of a planet is quite an impressive feat of strength.

Yes. It is impressive. I was just pointing out that planet busting doesn't mean they have infinite strength.

You are right.

@TheSwordsman said:

They should stop drawing him with a mini skirt and use a modern type costume like the eartj-829 black,red and gold one he wore at one time. The green one he wore when he was de-powerd was ok except for the color but was still much better than the girly one. It makes little sense him wearing an anachronistic man-skirt with no shirt and leather fishnets. He looks ridiculous.

He can wear a skirt because hes Hercules, the baddest God in the Marvel Universe. If people dont like Herc cause of the crap he wears then you haven't read any of his comics! Stick with cool looking characters like Gambit and Deadpool and read crap stories 98% of the time.

Im sure this has been said before but IMO Herc should be the strongest hero in the MU, an Thor should be right below him with Hulk third but, Herc an Thors strength should be capped with about a 25% increase when bloodlust is taken into effect. But i do believe Hulk should be able to surpass them both if his rage dictates.

Other than that, im cool with how Herc is written most times (aside from him losing his powers). Ya, hes not written as the most intelligent and honorable hero but, if he was.. would he be the brash, proud, fun loving and womanizing hero most of us have come to know an love? Leave most of the boring traits to the hammer wielding Thor and let Herc continue to be "that GUY" the guy who sleeps with countless women, who sticks up for the little man, and is always willing to bestow the gift to any Hero or Villain who thinks them self worthy. One thing i notice, that some might not, is how insightful Herc is. Some of the things he teaches Amadeus and even tell wolverine are quite interesting and thought provoking.

That's my contribution to the rant

@thedude4731 said:

He can wear a skirt because hes Hercules, the baddest God in the Marvel Universe. If people dont like Herc cause of the crap he wears then you haven't read any of his comics! Stick with cool looking characters like Gambit and Deadpool and read crap stories 98% of the time.

Im sure this has been said before but IMO Herc should be the strongest hero in the MU, an Thor should be right below him with Hulk third but, Herc an Thors strength should be capped with about a 25% increase when bloodlust is taken into effect. But i do believe Hulk should be able to surpass them both if his rage dictates.

Other than that, im cool with how Herc is written most times (aside from him losing his powers). Ya, hes not written as the most intelligent and honorable hero but, if he was.. would he be the brash, proud, fun loving and womanizing hero most of us have come to know an love? Leave most of the boring traits to the hammer wielding Thor and let Herc continue to be "that GUY" the guy who sleeps with countless women, who sticks up for the little man, and is always willing to bestow the gift to any Hero or Villain who thinks them self worthy. One thing i notice, that some might not, is how insightful Herc is. Some of the things he teaches Amadeus and even tell wolverine are quite interesting and thought provoking.

That's my contribution to the rant

Great contribution! I like everything you state.

Hercules is "that Guy!"

@thedude4731

First of all relax. I have read Hercules and he is one of my favorite mythological characters. He just has a terrible and effeminate/cross-dresser-type costume is all. If someone actually walked around wearing that outfit they would be laughed at incessantly. He needs a better hero costume.

Regular Hercules is not the baddest god. He is arguably one of the strongest, but Zeus or Odin would destroy him. Chaos Herc was arguably one of the baddest.

Your second and third paragraphs had absolutely nothing to do with my post and seemed like you just wanted to have a conversation with yourself about subjects and opinions of yours that are irrelevant to my post. Hercules is a fictitious character and you being so obsessed with him and taking such offense over a costume critique is troubling. Too much obsessing about a character is not healthy.

Good luck to you. I won't be responding back.

Good, lol im glad your giving me the last word makes it easyer for me. For one, you should appreciate the fact that anyone even responded you your dumb comment. Why? because all of us "Real fans" of Hercules our tired of hearing that crap about what he wears and that being the base of why "MOST" people dont like him, instead of good story telling. Its a childish mentality that should only be found in children. People would laugh at him? People would laugh at anyone in a superhero costume...if i see a guy dressed like batman or Gambit in the mall im going to laugh... An when i say "baddest" it was meant it in a general term, like awesome or badass. What you stated about Zeus an Odin is common knowledge in a community like our... An your right, everything after the first paragraph had nothing to do with you... thats why at the end i said "That's my contribution to the rant" which is what this thread is about... Use some logic so you wont get so butt hurt next time.

A question though to Lee, or if anyone else knows(cause from what I looked up I haven't found the answer). But you said, that Myth Herc is a Lighting timer....is there any evidence or a statement stating as him being such?

@Wolfrazer:

I've been a fan of Hercules my whole life, including, of course, Hercules from classical mythology and this is the first I've heard of him being a "lightning timer." Perhaps there is a story in myth that show or bears this claim out. I'm not aware of it, though.

I, too, have been a fan of Hercules, both the Marvel hero and his mythological basis, for many years now. However, there is nothing, niether in myths nor the comics, to suggest that he should be stronger than Thor or the Hulk. In myth, other than his labors, Hercules's primary foes are humans. And his strength feats in myths, while many, tend to involve him lifting large animals (boars, lions, etc). Even some of his more famous strength feats, such is holding the heavens for Atlas and strangling the Nemean Lion with his bare hands, have alternative versions that do not require him to use his strength (instead of strangling the Nemean Lion he shoots it in the mouth which is unprotected, instead of lifting the heavens, he instead kills the dragon that guards the golden apples he has been sent to retrieve). Never once is Hercules refered to as the strongest of the gods. Strongest of heroes, yes (though the ancient Athenians likely placed Theseus in this possition), but after his ascension he is not placed in direct competition with his peers, which in this case would be gods. In fact there are myths that place Ares capable of killing him (during their first meeting, Zeus seperates them with a thunderbolt because he refuses to allow the death of his favorite son by his least favorite son, during their later fight, which started because Hercules was going to kill Ares' son Kyknos, Ares is about to kill him, but Athena blocks his strike and Hercules is able to score a wounding strike on Ares, causing his other two sons to drag him away).

Thor doesn't fight mortals or demigods. He fights giants, beings in direct competion with the gods, almost exclusively. The myths describe him as being capable of crushing mountains with his hammer strikes and he is refered to as the strongest of the gods (with Vidr following close behind). Thor pulls the head of the midgard serpent out of the ocean, lifts whales (multiple, simultaniously) with ease, and causes the tides when he drinks a horn mystically linked to the ocean.

The Romans, when they began to learn of Germanic myths, equated Thor to either Jupiter (Zeus) or Hercules. There were even club pendants in similar fashion to hammer pendants. Being generous, they are equal in myths due to the Romans equating the two, but myth favors Thor far more in the realm of strength. Yes someone could mention Megingjord, his belt with increases his strength, but Thor was considered the strongest of the Aesir without it, and few myths actively mention the girdle anyway.

The comics show them consistently as equals in the realm of strength, and this is how it should be. In every instance of Thor and Hercules engaging in contests of strength, they stalemate. Recent comics have insinuated that Hercules is better at hand to hand (weaponless) combat, and this is a good addition as it does give him an edge against Thor whose overall power is well beyond Hercules, but it is also in keeping with their sources, where Thor is known as a brawler but is primarily depicted with his weapons, whereas Hercules is known for his wrestling skills and was even said to have (which his cousin Theseus) invented Pankration, a Greek martial art. PowerHerc will cite the Marvel Handbooks as an authority, which at various instances has shown Thor to be below the Class 100 range, whereas Hercules is also shown in the Class 100 group. However that rating has never been born out in the actual comics. Thor has never been depicted as weaker than his contemperaries in 100 ton range. The writers of the Handbooks are also notable for that fact that, by and large, they are not the ones that write the characters depicted (one would think that, for an official Marvel Handbook, Marvel would have tasked the writers of the respective title with creating the entries). Where the comics and the handbooks conflict, pretty sure most would agree that the comics trump.

As for the Hulk....that is a debate for another day. I'm not even going to open that can of worms on this forum.

Yes but I am not looking at the alt versions, but the versions that came up the labors in which he did indeed strangle the Nemean lion and held up the heavens. Not well versed as  
 

@PowerHerc

@Wolfrazer:

Sure, in classical mythology many of Hercules' enemies were human and he did encounter and battle more monsters and non-humans than just those mentioned in his labors (The Gigantes/Giants when he helped the Olympians defeat their rebellion, Antaeus, Nessus and Achelous come to mind), but what does that have to do with him being considered a "lightning timer"?

@Wolfrazer: Oh Hercules has battled his share of monsters in Myth, that part is not in doubt, He battled far more monsters than any other hero in Greek Mythology, but my statement was in direct contradiction to yours and others on this thread such as @thedude4731 that Hercules should be the strongest hero in the MU. He shouldn't. Neither myth nor Marvel canon bare that out. Hulk, Thor, Hercules, they are all in that top strength tier at Marvel and on any given day depending on the will of the writer will do something that trumps the other and they will be king until the next feat comes out. It doesn't end, and in truth, it shows if nothing else, the writers are keeping fans of these characters emotionally invested in them.

@Wolfrazer: True, this is somewhat of a blow, but if plyed right, it could do good things for the character. I mean so far the only dick move Hercules did was not allowing Ares to be resurected, but asside from that its been an interesting book. And this allows Marvel to explore his fighting roots and not just be a brawler because he is usually the strongest man in any given situation. Lets face it, Hercules will ultimately get his powers back. I just hope when he does, he does not just go back to the brawler type he isusually portrayed as and actually brings some skill into the game.

@Wolfrazer said:

A question though to Lee, or if anyone else knows(cause from what I looked up I haven't found the answer). But you said, that Myth Herc is a Lighting timer....is there any evidence or a statement stating as him being such?

Not in the comics, but in the myths zeus hurls lightning at him on more than one occasion.

@Enyalios I have to point out some of your mistakes.

1. The story whee zeus separated hercules and ares he did to protect ares because hercules was going to strip off his armor. Hercules had already beat him. In another story hercules beats ares three times and when he sees Apollo healing him he shoots Apollo and chases them away. In another story he wrestled a sea god and in yet another one he wrestles a river god. In one story he wrestles Apollo to a stand still. At the battle of pylos he beats Ares, Hera, Hades and it takes both Poseidon and Apollo to push him back. So power wise he was at the level of a god.

2. Here's a mistake. You're comparing greek gods to Norse gods as if they're equal. They weren't. Norse gods aged. Greek gods didn't. Norse gods died. Greek gods didn't. In greek myths thor would be a superpowers demigod. Like you said, thor had strength amplifiers. Hercules didn't. You're also forgetting some of his other strength feats like shaking the earth when he tried to lift peirithous out of the chair of forgetfulness and separating Africa and europe. It also doesn't help that you're using the more obscure myths to justify your position. Hercules fought plenty of god level beings... Antaeus, gigantes, nereus, death, ares, Poseidon, Hera, Apollo, hades etc..

@Wolfrazer said:

A question though to Lee, or if anyone else knows(cause from what I looked up I haven't found the answer). But you said, that Myth Herc is a Lighting timer....is there any evidence or a statement stating as him being such?

Not in the comics, but in the myths zeus hurls lightning at him on more than one occasion.

@Wolfrazer said:

@LeeSensei said:

@Wolfrazer said:

A question though to Lee, or if anyone else knows(cause from what I looked up I haven't found the answer). But you said, that Myth Herc is a Lighting timer....is there any evidence or a statement stating as him being such?

Not in the comics, but in the myths zeus hurls lightning at him on more than one occasion.

And Herc dodged said lighting?

Presumably. I mean he certainly didn't let it hit him. In one story he was grappling with Apollo when zeus threw his lightning. In another one zeus threw lightning at him when he was ripping off ares' armor.

@LeeSensei:

Alright this one is going to take a little bit to go through what you put here so bare with me:

"The story whee zeus separated hercules and ares he did to protect ares because hercules was going to strip off his armor. Hercules had already beat him"

No. The story about the armor bit comes from the fight with Kyknos where Athena expressly forbids Heracles by order of Zeus to steal Ares armor -AFTER- she tells him how to beat him. Still did not help him as it took Athena's direct intervention to give Hercules the opening he needed. Never heard the bit about Heracles shooting Apollo since, like most gods, Apollo favored Hercules, but that bit about "beating Ares three times" is referenced in the Shield of Heracles, the story that tells of the actual fight between Hercules and Kyknos. In it, its Hercules talking crap to Kyknos when this is referenced so the only one who validates this is Hercules as he is taunting Ares. If you could tell me the epic that this deed actually appears in I would be greatful, because I've been looking for it for a while and, asside from Hercules talking smack, its not referenced anywhere else. Oh, and it does not say he "beat" him three times, suggesting multiple fights, but that he stabbed him three times. Should tell you something where, even if this story is true, by Hercules own account it took stabing Ares with a spear three times to finally get past him.

"In one story he wrestles Apollo to a stand still."

He doesn't wresstle Apollo to a standstill, they fought over the Delphic tripod that Hercules, during one of his tantrums, was trying to steal. By all descriptions they were essentially playing tug of war with it and this was the standstill that Zeus finally had to break up using one of his famous Thunderbolts (he does this a lot). This also serves one of my points in that it demonstrates that Apollo was Hercules' equal in strength and once again demonstrates that Hercules is not the strongest of all the gods.

"at the battle of pylos he beats Ares, Hera, Hades and it takes both Poseidon and Apollo to push him back"

Um, the Battle of Pylos took place during the Peleponesius War, over 1000 years after Hercules died. You might be talking about a fight that took place at Pylos, but that's the one Hercules references in the Shield of Heracles by Hercules himself, and Hera and Hades are not mentioned. There is one story where Hercules shoots Hera with an arrow, but considering mythological Hera has no battle feats to her name, its hard to view this as anything other than Hercules once again physically abusing a woman, even if she is a god and this was done when he was taking the mares of Geryon. There is one story of a battle where Hercules -AND- Athena battle Ares, Hera, Poseiden and Hades, but that story is so convoluted, obscure and steels portions told in other, more common stories stories and even still, Ares doesn't fight Hercules in that one, he fights Athena. Hera does once again get wounded with an arrow, conveniently again in the right breast just like she did during Hercules labor of gathering the cattle of Geryon (poor woman getting shot in the exact same spot twice by a poisoned arrow, where one caused her constant pain, can't imagine what two would do). Some versions state Hades also gets wounded again with another arrow (Hercules really does have something against facing people in melee doesn't he?) but usually Hades walks away unharmed. Now if this battle did take place in Pylos (can't remember off hand where it was fought) than this does demonstrate Hercules lacks integrity since this would be the battle referenced by him when he fights Kyknos in the Shield of Heracles, and the actual telling of the tale doesn't even have the two fighting.

"In another story he wrestled a sea god and in yet another one he wrestles a river god"

Wressling Sea gods and river gods (pretty much the same thing in Greek Mythology since all were the children of Okeanus) is really not that great of a feat. Achilles directly fights a river god, though he loses (Hephastus saves him), Peleus, father of Achilles, had to claim Thetis, a sea goddess and Achilles mother, by wrestling her. Even Menelaus, several times removed from any divine blood and in possession of no supernatural powers whatsoever, wrestled Proteus on his trip home.

"Antaeus, gigantes, nereus, death, ares, Poseidon, Hera, Apollo, hades etc.."

I'm not recalling a myth where Hercules fights Poseidon directly. He fights one of his children (Antaeus, who you mentioned), who was a legitamate threat until he was seperated from the earth and lost all his powers. Nereus was a centaur and hardly god level. Mortals killed them all the time in myth. And Hercules again does not actually fight him, again he shoots him with a poisoned arrow. Already talked about Hera, Ares, and Apollo and the Gigantes was not that great of a feat either. He soley was credited with the death of one of them and the only reason why he was needed was because it was told only someone of mortal blood could lay the deathstrike against them. Dionisus, Olympus's other resident half-breed is also credited with the death of one by himself. asside from that, one other is mentioned that Apollo shoots in one eye but can't fully kill since he is a full god so Hercules follows it up with another arrow to his other eye. After that Hercules spends the rest of the fight standing next to Zeus, finishing off those Zeus already critcally wounds. Never once does any legend state him actually engaging in melee or hand to hand combat against any of them. It was all arrows and all but one finishing off what another god had already started.

"Here's a mistake. You're comparing greek gods to Norse gods as if they're equal. They weren't. Norse gods aged. Greek gods didn't. Norse gods died. Greek gods didn't. In greek myths thor would be a superpowers demigod. Like you said, thor had strength amplifiers. Hercules didn't. You're also forgetting some of his other strength feats like shaking the earth when he tried to lift peirithous out of the chair of forgetfulness and separating Africa and europe. It also doesn't help that you're using the more obscure myths to justify your position."

Um, no, Thor in Greek myth would be immortal like all the other gods, just like the Greek gods would be mortal were they transplanted to Norse myth. Its the nature of the people that worshipped them. Like I said when the Romans encountered the Germanic gods, they equated them to their own gods (the Greek gods) and still considered them very real. And Hercules did have an ampliphier of his strength: Zeus. Hercules did nothing that Zeus did not allow him to do. Several times in the myths it states that Zeus empowers Hercules and several times, Hercules was denied doing something because Zeus said no. And in the story of Pirithous, it does not state that the earth shook because of any strength exhibtted by Hercules, but that it shook in protest, basically telling him that it wasn't happening (though some versions of the tale do state that Zeus allowed him to free both Pirithous and Theseus), after which he stopped immediately (in other words, he got the hint).

Seperating Europe and Africa..really? And you talk about me reaching for obscure sources. This is a late edition to the story and was not even done by the Greeks but the Romans as part of their desire to put some of Hercules's myths in their part of the world. Here is the problem with this myth (aside from the obvious that the Greeks didn't come up with this). If you accept this feat, then you reject the holding the heavens on his shoulders feat. You see, according to the myth, Hercules had to cross over a mountain that used to be Atlas (rendered turned to stone in the Roman version of the Perseus myth). Instead of climbing it like a sensible human being, he decides to smash through it. Atlas, being a stone mountain, therefore could not have allowed Hercules to support the heavens on his shoulders. He was the mountain that Hercules smashed through. To the Greeks, the Pillars of Heracles were two legitamate stone pillars errected by Hercules to make the western-most boundary of his journeys. Pick your strength feat but I personally would stick with supporting the heavens. While it can hardly be quantified, most still consider it an upper end feat. Smashing through a mountain, something Thor does all the time, really isn't.

@Enyalios said:

@LeeSensei:

Alright this one is going to take a little bit to go through what you put here so bare with me:

"The story whee zeus separated hercules and ares he did to protect ares because hercules was going to strip off his armor. Hercules had already beat him"

No. The story about the armor bit comes from the fight with Kyknos where Athena expressly forbids Heracles by order of Zeus to steal Ares armor -AFTER- she tells him how to beat him. Still did not help him as it took Athena's direct intervention to give Hercules the opening he needed. Never heard the bit about Heracles shooting Apollo since, like most gods, Apollo favored Hercules, but that bit about "beating Ares three times" is referenced in the Shield of Heracles, the story that tells of the actual fight between Hercules and Kyknos. In it, its Hercules talking crap to Kyknos when this is referenced so the only one who validates this is Hercules as he is taunting Ares. If you could tell me the epic that this deed actually appears in I would be greatful, because I've been looking for it for a while and, asside from Hercules talking smack, its not referenced anywhere else. Oh, and it does not say he "beat" him three times, suggesting multiple fights, but that he stabbed him three times. Should tell you something where, even if this story is true, by Hercules own account it took stabing Ares with a spear three times to finally get past him.

"In one story he wrestles Apollo to a stand still."

He doesn't wresstle Apollo to a standstill, they fought over the Delphic tripod that Hercules, during one of his tantrums, was trying to steal. By all descriptions they were essentially playing tug of war with it and this was the standstill that Zeus finally had to break up using one of his famous Thunderbolts (he does this a lot). This also serves one of my points in that it demonstrates that Apollo was Hercules' equal in strength and once again demonstrates that Hercules is not the strongest of all the gods.

"at the battle of pylos he beats Ares, Hera, Hades and it takes both Poseidon and Apollo to push him back"

Um, the Battle of Pylos took place during the Peleponesius War, over 1000 years after Hercules died. You might be talking about a fight that took place at Pylos, but that's the one Hercules references in the Shield of Heracles by Hercules himself, and Hera and Hades are not mentioned. There is one story where Hercules shoots Hera with an arrow, but considering mythological Hera has no battle feats to her name, its hard to view this as anything other than Hercules once again physically abusing a woman, even if she is a god and this was done when he was taking the mares of Geryon. There is one story of a battle where Hercules -AND- Athena battle Ares, Hera, Poseiden and Hades, but that story is so convoluted, obscure and steels portions told in other, more common stories stories and even still, Ares doesn't fight Hercules in that one, he fights Athena. Hera does once again get wounded with an arrow, conveniently again in the right breast just like she did during Hercules labor of gathering the cattle of Geryon (poor woman getting shot in the exact same spot twice by a poisoned arrow, where one caused her constant pain, can't imagine what two would do). Some versions state Hades also gets wounded again with another arrow (Hercules really does have something against facing people in melee doesn't he?) but usually Hades walks away unharmed. Now if this battle did take place in Pylos (can't remember off hand where it was fought) than this does demonstrate Hercules lacks integrity since this would be the battle referenced by him when he fights Kyknos in the Shield of Heracles, and the actual telling of the tale doesn't even have the two fighting.

"In another story he wrestled a sea god and in yet another one he wrestles a river god"

Wressling Sea gods and river gods (pretty much the same thing in Greek Mythology since all were the children of Okeanus) is really not that great of a feat. Achilles directly fights a river god, though he loses (Hephastus saves him), Peleus, father of Achilles, had to claim Thetis, a sea goddess and Achilles mother, by wrestling her. Even Menelaus, several times removed from any divine blood and in possession of no supernatural powers whatsoever, wrestled Proteus on his trip home.

"Antaeus, gigantes, nereus, death, ares, Poseidon, Hera, Apollo, hades etc.."

I'm not recalling a myth where Hercules fights Poseidon directly. He fights one of his children (Antaeus, who you mentioned), who was a legitamate threat until he was seperated from the earth and lost all his powers. Nereus was a centaur and hardly god level. Mortals killed them all the time in myth. And Hercules again does not actually fight him, again he shoots him with a poisoned arrow. Already talked about Hera, Ares, and Apollo and the Gigantes was not that great of a feat either. He soley was credited with the death of one of them and the only reason why he was needed was because it was told only someone of mortal blood could lay the deathstrike against them. Dionisus, Olympus's other resident half-breed is also credited with the death of one by himself. asside from that, one other is mentioned that Apollo shoots in one eye but can't fully kill since he is a full god so Hercules follows it up with another arrow to his other eye. After that Hercules spends the rest of the fight standing next to Zeus, finishing off those Zeus already critcally wounds. Never once does any legend state him actually engaging in melee or hand to hand combat against any of them. It was all arrows and all but one finishing off what another god had already started.

"Here's a mistake. You're comparing greek gods to Norse gods as if they're equal. They weren't. Norse gods aged. Greek gods didn't. Norse gods died. Greek gods didn't. In greek myths thor would be a superpowers demigod. Like you said, thor had strength amplifiers. Hercules didn't. You're also forgetting some of his other strength feats like shaking the earth when he tried to lift peirithous out of the chair of forgetfulness and separating Africa and europe. It also doesn't help that you're using the more obscure myths to justify your position."

Um, no, Thor in Greek myth would be immortal like all the other gods, just like the Greek gods would be mortal were they transplanted to Norse myth. Its the nature of the people that worshipped them. Like I said when the Romans encountered the Germanic gods, they equated them to their own gods (the Greek gods) and still considered them very real. And Hercules did have an ampliphier of his strength: Zeus. Hercules did nothing that Zeus did not allow him to do. Several times in the myths it states that Zeus empowers Hercules and several times, Hercules was denied doing something because Zeus said no. And in the story of Pirithous, it does not state that the earth shook because of any strength exhibtted by Hercules, but that it shook in protest, basically telling him that it wasn't happening (though some versions of the tale do state that Zeus allowed him to free both Pirithous and Theseus), after which he stopped immediately (in other words, he got the hint).

Seperating Europe and Africa..really? And you talk about me reaching for obscure sources. This is a late edition to the story and was not even done by the Greeks but the Romans as part of their desire to put some of Hercules's myths in their part of the world. Here is the problem with this myth (aside from the obvious that the Greeks didn't come up with this). If you accept this feat, then you reject the holding the heavens on his shoulders feat. You see, according to the myth, Hercules had to cross over a mountain that used to be Atlas (rendered turned to stone in the Roman version of the Perseus myth). Instead of climbing it like a sensible human being, he decides to smash through it. Atlas, being a stone mountain, therefore could not have allowed Hercules to support the heavens on his shoulders. He was the mountain that Hercules smashed through. To the Greeks, the Pillars of Heracles were two legitamate stone pillars errected by Hercules to make the western-most boundary of his journeys. Pick your strength feat but I personally would stick with supporting the heavens. While it can hardly be quantified, most still consider it an upper end feat. Smashing through a mountain, something Thor does all the time, really isn't.

1. Hercules beat ares by himself. I don't know why it's so hard for you to see it, ares lost a lot of fights in the myths.

2. During hercules, campaigns he fought a war at pylos against 5 gods. It's true that Athena faced ares while hercules was fighting the others, but when ares got passed hercules stabbed him and shot at Apollo when he was trying to heal ares.

3. No it doesn't. Just because it didn't reach the conclusion of its fight, it doesn't mean that Apollo was stronger than him. Hercules lifted heaven.

4. Hera beat Artemis.

5. Why are you so confident in ares' strength? He lost a lot of fights.

6. The earth shook from his strength.

7. Are you sure about that? That heracles didn't fight a gigantes single combat?

Ptolemy Hephaestion, New History Book 5 (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 190) (trans. Pearse) (Greek mythographer C1st to C2nd A.D.) :

"Herakles did not wear the skin of the Nemean lion, but that of a certain Leon (Lion), one of the Gigantes (Giants) killed by Herakles whom he had challenged to single combat."

8. Btw, roman myths count.

9. That's the point. Achilles needed to be saved and hercules did not. If you can tell me the name of a character that lifted the earth besides hercules and atlas then ill agree with you.

10. That's not how it works. Thor doesn't get Olympian immortality. Greek gods are truly immortal. Thor wasn't. That's the end of it. Zeus wasn't an amplifier to his strength. Giving someone permission to do something isn't the same thing as giving them the power to do it. Unless you have a quote that says that zeus gave hercules extra power when he needed it. And you're arguement that the belt of strength isn't mentioned much is weak. First Norse myth book I picked up mentioned it. If you want to debate myth herc vs myth thor we can take it to the battlefield.

11. Wrong. That's you're problem. Where atlas lived was never expressly said. Same thing with the underworld. a lot of people went there, but no one said how they got there. Some times it's pastthe iberian peninsula, at other times it's passed ethiopia. The heavens is the home of the gods. Aether. The cosmos. At the very least it was heavy enough to crush the earth.

1.) Shield of Heracles, right after Hercules killed Kyknos:

--------------------------------------

(ll. 424-442) Then the stout hearted son of Zeus let him be, and himself watched for the onset of manslaying Ares: fiercely he stared, like a lion who has come upon a body and full eagerly rips the hide with his strong claws and takes away the sweet life with all speed: his dark heart is filled with rage and his eyes glare fiercely, while he tears up the earth with his paws and lashes his flanks and shoulders with his tail so that no one dares to face him and go near to give battle. Even so, the son of Amphitryon, unsated of battle, stood eagerly face to face with Ares, nursing courage in his heart. And Ares drew near him with grief in his heart; and they both sprang at one another with a cry. As it is when a rock shoots out from a great cliff and whirls down with long bounds, careering eagerly with a roar, and a high crag clashes with it and keeps it there where they strike together; with no less clamour did deadly Ares, the chariot- borne, rush shouting at Heracles. And he quickly received the attack.

(ll. 443-449) But Athene the daughter of aegis-bearing Zeus came to meet Ares, wearing the dark aegis, and she looked at him with an angry frown and spoke winged words to him. `Ares, check your fierce anger and matchless hands; for it is not ordained that you should kill Heracles, the bold-hearted son of Zeus, and strip off his rich armour. Come, then, cease fighting and do not withstand me.'

(ll. 450-466) So said she, but did not move the courageous spirit of Ares. But he uttered a great shout and waving his spears like fire, he rushed headlong at strong Heracles, longing to kill him, and hurled a brazen spear upon the great shield, for he was furiously angry because of his dead son; but bright-eyed Athene reached out from the car and turned aside the force of the spear.

Then bitter grief seized Ares and he drew his keen sword and leaped upon bold-hearted Heracles. But as he came on, the son of Amphitryon, unsated of fierce battle, shrewdly wounded his thigh where it was exposed under his richly-wrought shield, and tare deep into his flesh with the spear-thrust and cast him flat upon the ground. And Panic and Dread quickly drove his smooth-wheeled chariot and horses near him and lifted him from the wide-pathed earth into his richly-wrought car, and then straight lashed the horses and came to high Olympus.

(ll. 467-471) But the son of Alemena and glorious Iolaus stripped the fine armour off Cycnus' shoulders and went, and their swift horses carried them straight to the city of Trachis. And bright- eyed Athene went thence to great Olympus and her father's house.

------------------------------------

By himself? Nope.

2.) I'll do some research into this one and get back to you.

3.) Didn't say he was stronger, I said they were of equivilent strength. You can't fight over a tripod of all things and stalemate someone and be physicaly weaker. It doesn't work that way.

4.) Not sure where you are going with this one, but if you are using this to give Hera combat feats...sure, this definately puts Hera on a different level. I'm sure it was a hard fought victory in which Hercules SHOT HER IN THE BREAST from a distance.

5.) Yes he did. But he also won a lot. There is a reason ancient hymns refer to him as "Magnanimous, unconquered, boisterous Ares, fierce and untamed, whose mighty power can make the strongest walls from their foundations shake", "Savior of Cities", "Defender of Olympos", "His Father's Champion".

6.) If you say so.

7.) "Hercules first shot Alcyoneus with an arrow, but when the giant fell on the ground he somewhat revived. However, at Athena's advice Hercules dragged him outside Pallene, and so the giant died. But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow. As for the other giants, Ephialtes was shot by Apollo with an arrow in his left eye and by Hercules in his right; Eurytus was killed by Dionysus with a thyrsus, and Clytius by Hecate with torches, and Mimas by Hephaestus with missiles of red-hot metal. Enceladus fled, but Athena threw on him in his flight the island of Sicily; and she flayed Pallas and used his skin to shield her own body in the fight. Polybotes was chased through the sea by Poseidon and came to Cos; and Poseidon, breaking off that piece of the island which is called Nisyrum, threw it on him. And Hermes, wearing the helmet of Hades, slew Hippolytus in the fight, and Artemis slew Gration. And the Fates, fighting with brazer clubs, killed Agrius and Thoas. The other giants Zeus smote and destroyed with thunderbolts and all of them Hercules shot with arrows as they were dying." Apollodorus, Library

I'm sure.

8.) As you say, but again in the Roman myths, Hercules didn't lift the heavens, he smashed through the Mountain Atlas had become, killed the the serpent that guarded the apples, stole them and left. In the Greek version, Hercules takes the burdon of the heavens from Atlas, who is able to get past the serpent on account of it not attacking him and retrieves the apples and is subsequently tricked by Hercules into taking the burdon back. Which one would you prefer?

9.) Menelaus didn't need any help either. Are we to assume that Menelaus was greater than Achilles and the equal of Hercules based on that?

10.) How would it not work like that? You said if Thor was in Greek Mythology...if Thor was in Greek Mythology, he is the god of Thunder, he would be immortal like all the other gods. Just like if Zeus was transplanted to Norse Mythology, he would require the apples of Idun to maintain his immortality. Also, if your argument that Roman myths count, then the gods are not immortal, as Pan ultimately dies, and lets not forget that it does not take much to become a god in among the Romans, merely a ratification by the senate.

11.) Actually that is not my problem, that is the nature of myth. Where Atlas lived is expressly stated several times (you just named a few)...just different locations depending on who you ask. Just like any given myth on what Hercules actually accomplished is different, depending on who you ask.

@Enyalios said:

1.) Shield of Heracles, right after Hercules killed Kyknos:

--------------------------------------

(ll. 424-442) Then the stout hearted son of Zeus let him be, and himself watched for the onset of manslaying Ares: fiercely he stared, like a lion who has come upon a body and full eagerly rips the hide with his strong claws and takes away the sweet life with all speed: his dark heart is filled with rage and his eyes glare fiercely, while he tears up the earth with his paws and lashes his flanks and shoulders with his tail so that no one dares to face him and go near to give battle. Even so, the son of Amphitryon, unsated of battle, stood eagerly face to face with Ares, nursing courage in his heart. And Ares drew near him with grief in his heart; and they both sprang at one another with a cry. As it is when a rock shoots out from a great cliff and whirls down with long bounds, careering eagerly with a roar, and a high crag clashes with it and keeps it there where they strike together; with no less clamour did deadly Ares, the chariot- borne, rush shouting at Heracles. And he quickly received the attack.

(ll. 443-449) But Athene the daughter of aegis-bearing Zeus came to meet Ares, wearing the dark aegis, and she looked at him with an angry frown and spoke winged words to him. `Ares, check your fierce anger and matchless hands; for it is not ordained that you should kill Heracles, the bold-hearted son of Zeus, and strip off his rich armour. Come, then, cease fighting and do not withstand me.'

(ll. 450-466) So said she, but did not move the courageous spirit of Ares. But he uttered a great shout and waving his spears like fire, he rushed headlong at strong Heracles, longing to kill him, and hurled a brazen spear upon the great shield, for he was furiously angry because of his dead son; but bright-eyed Athene reached out from the car and turned aside the force of the spear.

Then bitter grief seized Ares and he drew his keen sword and leaped upon bold-hearted Heracles. But as he came on, the son of Amphitryon, unsated of fierce battle, shrewdly wounded his thigh where it was exposed under his richly-wrought shield, and tare deep into his flesh with the spear-thrust and cast him flat upon the ground. And Panic and Dread quickly drove his smooth-wheeled chariot and horses near him and lifted him from the wide-pathed earth into his richly-wrought car, and then straight lashed the horses and came to high Olympus.

(ll. 467-471) But the son of Alemena and glorious Iolaus stripped the fine armour off Cycnus' shoulders and went, and their swift horses carried them straight to the city of Trachis. And bright- eyed Athene went thence to great Olympus and her father's house.

------------------------------------

By himself? Nope.

2.) I'll do some research into this one and get back to you.

3.) Didn't say he was stronger, I said they were of equivilent strength. You can't fight over a tripod of all things and stalemate someone and be physicaly weaker. It doesn't work that way.

4.) Not sure where you are going with this one, but if you are using this to give Hera combat feats...sure, this definately puts Hera on a different level. I'm sure it was a hard fought victory in which Hercules SHOT HER IN THE BREAST from a distance.

5.) Yes he did. But he also won a lot. There is a reason ancient hymns refer to him as "Magnanimous, unconquered, boisterous Ares, fierce and untamed, whose mighty power can make the strongest walls from their foundations shake", "Savior of Cities", "Defender of Olympos", "His Father's Champion".

6.) If you say so.

7.) "Hercules first shot Alcyoneus with an arrow, but when the giant fell on the ground he somewhat revived. However, at Athena's advice Hercules dragged him outside Pallene, and so the giant died. But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow. As for the other giants, Ephialtes was shot by Apollo with an arrow in his left eye and by Hercules in his right; Eurytus was killed by Dionysus with a thyrsus, and Clytius by Hecate with torches, and Mimas by Hephaestus with missiles of red-hot metal. Enceladus fled, but Athena threw on him in his flight the island of Sicily; and she flayed Pallas and used his skin to shield her own body in the fight. Polybotes was chased through the sea by Poseidon and came to Cos; and Poseidon, breaking off that piece of the island which is called Nisyrum, threw it on him. And Hermes, wearing the helmet of Hades, slew Hippolytus in the fight, and Artemis slew Gration. And the Fates, fighting with brazer clubs, killed Agrius and Thoas. The other giants Zeus smote and destroyed with thunderbolts and all of them Hercules shot with arrows as they were dying." Apollodorus, Library

I'm sure.

8.) As you say, but again in the Roman myths, Hercules didn't lift the heavens, he smashed through the Mountain Atlas had become, killed the the serpent that guarded the apples, stole them and left. In the Greek version, Hercules takes the burdon of the heavens from Atlas, who is able to get past the serpent on account of it not attacking him and retrieves the apples and is subsequently tricked by Hercules into taking the burdon back. Which one would you prefer?

9.) Menelaus didn't need any help either. Are we to assume that Menelaus was greater than Achilles and the equal of Hercules based on that?

10.) How would it not work like that? You said if Thor was in Greek Mythology...if Thor was in Greek Mythology, he is the god of Thunder, he would be immortal like all the other gods. Just like if Zeus was transplanted to Norse Mythology, he would require the apples of Idun to maintain his immortality. Also, if your argument that Roman myths count, then the gods are not immortal, as Pan ultimately dies, and lets not forget that it does not take much to become a god in among the Romans, merely a ratification by the senate.

11.) Actually that is not my problem, that is the nature of myth. Where Atlas lived is expressly stated several times (you just named a few)...just different locations depending on who you ask. Just like any given myth on what Hercules actually accomplished is different, depending on who you ask.

1. The fight at pylos.

3. They were separated before there was a clear victor. Hercules has better feats strength wise.

5. List the fights he's one. He's lost to Apollo, Hermes. Ephialtes and otus, Athena, Hercules and Athena, Hercules by himself, and Athena and Diomedes. And he beat one of the gigantes.

6. That's what the myths said.

7. So you're just annoying my quote that says he fought a giant in single combat then?

8. You take the most common one. Also, not every roman version has him kill the dragon. Some have him lifting heaven still.

9. I don't remember menopause fighting a river god. And even if he did it was said many times that Achilles was the best.

10. It doesn't work like that way because thor isn't immortal. His stats don't automatically Change to justify your arguement. He's a god in Norse myths, but by greek standards he's just a superpowers demigod.

11. Thanks for proving my point. There's no definite location given for atlas so his continent separating feat and heaven lifting feat can be used in the same myth. Also, that's not an obscure myths. Why do you think the ancient World called it the Pillars of hercules.

@LeeSensei:

I'll hit you up when I get back from work. I really am enjoying this debate by the way.

@Enyalios actually, i think that we should just agree to disagree. Not because I'm not enjoying this debate (and I am), but because it's off topic and I don't think we're going to change our minds.

And I am back.

1. I am still looking up the fight at Pylos and this may be the one that Hercules is refering to when he taunts Ares in the Shield of Heracles. However as I said I can't find the actual epic or cycle that it was told in. I have found a vague reference where it looks like someone found the epic and analyzed it, and it seems to be the one I had mentioned earlier where Athena faced off against Ares, not Hercules, but I can't find the root story. At least finding an analyzation of it tells me the fight is recorded somewhere so hopefully I'll find it soon, it should be a good read. If you know the actual source of it, I'll see if my library has it, they actually have a very good selection of these types of books.

3. Hercules does have better strength feats and if the two had never met in direct competition that would be enough. Problem is, they did and it turned into a contest of strength which they stalemated. That evidence still points to Apollo and Heracles being pretty much equal in strength.

5. Ares won against Ekhidnades (the son of Ekhidna), Mimos (one of the Gigantes), The son of Poseidon (can't remember his name, started with an "H") for raping his daughter, that I can think of off the top of my head. Can't really call it a feat but he also killed that little prick her chained up Thanatos and was cheating death for a while. Pretty sure he killed a few Trojans and Greeks since he was constantly described in the Illiad as trying to avenge the deaths of his children (coincidently, he is the only Greek god in the Illiad besides Zeus himself who actually showed concern for his children) to the point where all the other gods had to hold him back because they feared Zeus would punish all of them for Ares' actions. And I don't recall any myth where Hermes beat Ares at anything, so if you have a reference let me know, would be curious to read it. As for Apollo, they didn't actually fight in the traditional sense, it was a boxing match during the first Olympics, which Apollo did win. However considering he is the god of Athletisism (and pretty much everything else), he pretty much wins every competition he gets into. He is that annoying perfect child among the Olympians. That same event saw him beat Hermes in a foot race. we've already talked about the Athena and Hercules bit as well as the Hercules one, but the Diomedes and Athena bares some examination as Athena was wearing Hades Helmet of Darkness at the time and was therefore completely invisible. She therefore was able to deflect Ares spear thrust that was going to kill Diomedes and then guides Diomedes spear into Ares, all completely unseen by Ares. Its a victory, sure, but there were definately some very unusual circumstances behind it.

7. I'm not ignoring your comment at all, I simply provided you with a more detailed description of the battle from an older source. The issue with your quote is that's all you have is that one line. No details, not nothing defining the nature of their combat. Paris and Philoctites fought in single combat as well, but theirs was an archery competition that ended in the death of Paris by three arrows (coincendently the arrows of Heracles). Since every other source cites Hercules slaying the giants by arrow and not in melee, its far more likely that this is how he killed Leon. That sentence is also the only place its mentioned that Hercules wears anything other than the Nemean Lion skin, and the only place that mentions Leon at all. Like you say, I'll default to the most common and well known of the myths which don't mention Leon.

8. If I take the most common version of the myth, Hercules did not seperate Europe and Africa.

9. Menelaus didn't fight a river god, he fought Proteus, a sea god as related in the Odessey, and yes it is generally accepted that Achilles was the greatest of the Greek warriors (though Ajax has better feats), so fighting a river god is not that big of a deal of Menelaus can do the same thing.

10. And you can't downgrade Thor to a demigod to suit yours. Thor is a god. As I said, when the Romans, who actively worshiped the Grecian gods at the time, encountered worshipers of him, they immediately identified him with either Hercules or Jupiter, depending on the sources. They did not downgrade him to a demigod status or anything of the kind.

11. Except that the myth that has him seperating the continents specifically states that he did so by smashing into the mountain that used to be Atlas, That makes them mutually exclusive. He could not have done both. This was another fact based on your same point because, depending on your source, the pillars of hercules were located in different areas. Another version of the same myth says that he did not create the strait at all, but instead narrowed an already existing strait in order to keep the monsters of the Atlantic Ocean from getting into the Mediteranian.

@LeeSensei: And I just saw your post about agreeing to disagree, sorry lol. Oh well, fun debate. But yeah if you have any of the actual sources of the ones I described as me not being familiar with, please message me or something I would love to find them.

@Enyalios said:

@LeeSensei: And I just saw your post about agreeing to disagree, sorry lol. Oh well, fun debate. But yeah if you have any of the actual sources of the ones I described as me not being familiar with, please message me or something I would love to find them.

I. Kind of still want to debate this, but I'm using a blackberry and it's hard to type it.

I saw it on their somewhere.

2. No. It means that Apollo wouldn't get manhandled right from the start. The thing can fight hulk for a while, but in the end he'll still be overpowered.

3. Most of them are fearless and the giants that he beat are comparable to the Giants herc beat. Also, afterwards Athena knocked ares out with a rock in a straight fight.

4. What about Antaeus and Geryon.

5. The most common version of myths say that he did separate europe and Africa. For comparison, Athena and Poseidon could hurl islands. Hercules can separate entire continents. Atlas doesn't have a set location. Geryon always lives west of Spain.

6. Not quite. Achelous is regarded as the king of the rivers while protrusion was the old man of the sda. It's likely that achelous was stronger.

7. Except I'm not downgrading thor. You're upgrading hm. Here then... Let me say it another way, thor is a god who gets older, and can die and who needs power amplifiers to lift his weapon. And btw, iswere goingto be like that isnt hercules a god to the Greeks and Romans too?

8. The continent separating existed long before the roman mythology. Read platos description:

For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travelers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent.

The Greeks knew about his continent separating 100s of years before the roman version.

Sorry. I know I said that we should stop, but I don't see a lot of people who know so much about mythology on these forums. you're really making me think. As long as it's not bothering anyone, do you want to continue.