Gods vs. Marvels, are the Marvel "Gods" really what they claim?

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#101 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

@Primmaster64:

Maybe he could have ended it easily.  Maybe he could've ended it with considerable effort.  Maybe he couldn't have ended it at all.   
 
The writers had an opportunity to use LT as a factor or a non-factor in the Chaos War, depending on how it was explained.   
They could've used him to stop the Chaos King.  They could've used him to try and fail which would've established new limits to his power and influence.  Or they could've merely shown him on the sidelines watching events play out, waiting for the time is right for him to intervene (should that time even come). 

 
They haven't done any of these things yet and they still could/might, but it seems unlikely that LT will even appear let alone be a deciding factor in this story-arc.

#102 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc: It would be cool if he would to appear at the end and seal the chaos king somewhere.right?
#103 Posted by SC (13119 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, I think its just better to assume Living Tribunal already knows what will happen and has faith in Hercules. I hope thats how it plays out. 

Moderator
#104 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" Honestly, I think its just better to assume Living Tribunal already knows what will happen and has faith in Hercules. I hope thats how it plays out.  "
That could work.
#105 Posted by SladeRogers (291 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc:
Exactly. The number 1 rule of the Gods is only a God can kill another God, or maybe someone weild their personal weapon maybe. Thor killed his grandfather and that's how it should be. Not Sentry/Void/Angel of Death killing both Ares and Loki, that blasphemy in my eyes.
#106 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
"Honestly, I think its just better to assume Living Tribunal already knows what will happen and has faith in Hercules. I hope thats how it plays out.  "

This sound good to me. 
 
@Primmaster64 said:
" @PowerHerc: It would be cool if he would to appear at the end and seal the chaos king somewhere.right? "


As long as it's Herc that gets to kick his ass, I'm fine with LT passing his judgement and carrying out whatever sentence he gives.
#107 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@SladeRogers: I never seen an angel in Marvel dude.
 
@PowerHerc:
Of course sir!
#108 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64:
Glad to hear it!
#109 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc: :D...if LT does show up, wonder what he'll say, and didn't Herc already kicked the chaos king's butt?
#110 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
" @PowerHerc: :D...if LT does show up, wonder what he'll say, and didn't Herc already kicked the chaos king's butt?"

I don't know yet.
#111 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc: ok !
#112 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@SladeRogers said:
"@PowerHerc:
Exactly. The number 1 rule of the Gods is only a God can kill another God, or maybe someone weild their personal weapon maybe. Thor killed his grandfather and that's how it should be. Not Sentry/Void/Angel of Death killing both Ares and Loki, that blasphemy in my eyes. "

Agreed.  Blasphemy, indeed!  (Great word,btw.)
#113 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio

indeed

#114 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
"indeed "

I see you're still paying attention to this topic.  You liked the use of Blasphemy, too, I see.   
It's kind of ironic that it's been used only now, after well over 100 posts, in this thread debating gods; their definition and their place in the MU. 
#115 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc: Its interesting sir.:D
#116 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
" @PowerHerc: Its interesting sir.:D "

Verily.
#117 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc: I meant the topic..its quite interesting sir.
#118 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64:
Okay.  That's how I understood it.
#119 Edited by Celunon (36 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, according to the Handbooks, most of Earth's pantheons apparently emerged due to the nascent unconsciousness of primitive mankind in its earliest tapping into Ajak's shed "godstuff" and at least influencing their development. Gaea also hinted in one issue that belief in these "gods" strengthened them, though evidently, the deities are not truly dependent on such worship. The Creator God/Supreme Being, who birthed the Universe, a concept most prominently represented by the montheistic faiths of Earth, however, is, I think, a different matter, though going too deeply into that would be complicated... 
 
Most people do believe that the One-Above-All is the Supreme Being of the Marvel Multiverse - essentially representing its concept of "God".
#120 Posted by Antediluvian (11 posts) - - Show Bio

It's always been interesting to me how Marvel and DC view the various mythological deities.  
 
In DC, the gods and goddesses seem truly supernatural or magical, their power level is affected by worship. The more they have the stronger they are, the less the weaker.  
 
But in Marvel, the exact opposite is the case. Worship for them doesn't seem that vital and seems to have no effect on their level of power AT ALL.  It seems to be more of an ego trip.
 
Which of course shows that the Marvel deities are basically just superhuman races like the Eternals, Deviants, Inhumans etc.  
 
They wield magic and magical items, but they themselves are no more magical than humans who wield such things.

#121 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Antediluvian:
I don't know if I agree with the ego trip thing about Marvel's deities, but I like your overall summary of the key difference between Gods in the respective Marvel and DC Universes.
#122 Posted by seekquaze (612 posts) - - Show Bio
@Antediluvian said:
"   But in Marvel, the exact opposite is the case. Worship for them doesn't seem that vital and seems to have no effect on their level of power AT ALL.  It seems to be more of an ego trip. Which of course shows that the Marvel deities are basically just superhuman races like the Eternals, Deviants, Inhumans etc.   They wield magic and magical items, but they themselves are no more magical than humans who wield such things. "
This doesn't mean they re not gods.  There are other fantasy setting and even real world beliefs where gods do not need human worship.  The gods existed long before mankind so they would not need worship.  In one Greek tale it is implied the only reason Zeus keeps humans around is to feed his ego.
 
The gods are the gods because they are so different from normal humans.  They are immortal and by human comparison all-powerful. What clearly separates them from other beings like Eternals is they are much more magic based.  The Eternals have always drawn a clear distinction between themselves and gods, but have never questioned the divinity of the Olympians.  Gods have also occasionally been shown to have abilities that transcend the physical.  Ares was able to walk through time to fight Nate Grey and their battle was reflected in the stars.  The war between Asgard and Seth was reflected in the weather on Earth with clouds taking the form of combatants.    In the recent issue of Astonishing Thor THor states how his divinity transcends the mere physical allowing him to find the right spot to tear through dimensions.  Kly'bn, and its been implied other gods, are somehow metaphyically connected to the cultures that worship them so if they fall the culture falls as well.
 
So the gods are not just another race of superhumans.
#123 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really

#124 Posted by SC (13119 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel as in the writers and company say yes, they are. The dictionary and etymology of the word god supports them. Of course though, like most words, gods is a broad term. So depends what one means. 

Moderator
#125 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's very cool that comics explore the concept of godhood and divinity in a superhero context.

#126 Posted by gavinification (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes they are gods. Why wouldnt they be?  
Who is USAgent to say that they arent?

#127 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

@gavinification:

I think Pak was writing USAgent from the perspective of the average real-world person who believes in more accepted religious tenets and is offended/angered when someone make claims to divinity or suggests someone or something other than what is coventionally accepted is a deity or divine.

#128 Posted by Nova`Prime` (4165 posts) - - Show Bio

A good series that this topic covers is the Max series The Eternals. Its a really good read and explains where the so called gods came from. I know its not in continuity but there is really nothing saying that not how the gods got their start in 616 either.

#129 Posted by gavinification (83 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc: Well just because the concept of Thor or Ares as a god doesn't agree with the average person's idea of a god does not mean they aren't. They are gods in the classical sense and not in the modern sense. The cosmic lads are gods in that sense. 
And the fact that they could be beaten and outpowered doesn't take away from their godly status. Gods in mythology could be beaten and killed.
#130 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

@gavinification said:

@PowerHerc: Well just because the concept of Thor or Ares as a god doesn't agree with the average person's idea of a god does not mean they aren't. They are gods in the classical sense and not in the modern sense. The cosmic lads are gods in that sense. And the fact that they could be beaten and outpowered doesn't take away from their godly status. Gods in mythology could be beaten and killed.

I agree. I think many people are sensitive when it comes to the term 'god' because of their own religious beliefs, though.

#131 Posted by Paracelsus (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

hmm-depends on what you term a"God"-Thor, Hercules and other immortals use the phrase in the legendary but not necessarily spiritual sense(much as Mephisto claims to be the Judaeo-Christian Devil and even names his domain "Hell" complete with the souls of the damned but WE know that he, Thog, Satannish and other wannabe devils are in reality as "Satan" explained to Hellcat, just aspects of his own personality though not even THEY are aware of it. "Satan" incidentally denies to her that he is "THAT Satan"( Lucifer, cast out of Heaven by St. Michael)-but as one of his titles is" Prince/Father Of Lies", NOTHING he said can be taken at face value). As a wise man noted apropos of miracles performed by the intercession of St Therese of Lisieux at Lourdes "to those who believe, no explanation is necessary, to those who do not believe, no explanation is possible!" 'Nuff said!
 
Terry

#132 Posted by seekquaze (612 posts) - - Show Bio
@Paracelsus
 
The "real" Satan turned up in Ghost Rider not too long ago.  Frankly, Mephisto is a more impressive devil-figure.  I don't know how it effect Damian Hellstrom.  
 
Marvel gods are also gods in the spiritual sense.  Most writers just have trouble portraying it.  It is much easier to write them as just physical beings with some nifty powers. 
#133 Posted by 3cclark (11 posts) - - Show Bio

There are like five Hell Lords in earth's dimension, there all take the mantle devil, but none has never been proven to be the true Satan, all is under the cosmic entity "Death".
 
 
To the answer the question Earth Gods were the first things to spawn when Earth was created according to the 616 universe, the Elder Gods evolved from the planet's magic when it was being formed.   There's a debate about Magic versus Cosmic Energy in the Marvel Universe.   Both can do the same thing , but magic has less limits than cosmic energy by only in the dimensions where the magic evolved.  (Asgard, Earth, Mephisto's realm,)   
 
On a another note, the Olympians and Asgardians both had to team up to take on the Externals, who I believe is more powerful than both.   Eternals are immortals, they don't  have magic, but cosmic powers that rival magic in so many ways.  They may also be just as old as the to Pantheon races.  The Elder Gods were on earth before, during and after the Dinosaur age, because the Elder God Set was the God of Dinosaurs.     The children of Gaea came around I want to say around the Hyboria age 

#134 Posted by seekquaze (612 posts) - - Show Bio

@3cclark said:

On a another note, the Olympians and Asgardians both had to team up to take on the Externals, who I believe is more powerful than both. Eternals are immortals, they don't have magic, but cosmic powers that rival magic in so many ways. They may also be just as old as the to Pantheon races. The Elder Gods were on earth before, during and after the Dinosaur age, because the Elder God Set was the God of Dinosaurs. The children of Gaea came around I want to say around the Hyboria age

Compared to the average Asgardian Eternals are more powerful. However, once you take the more powerful gods like the 12 Olympians or the major Asgardians power wise they are about the same one on one or the gods have a slight edge. The oldest Eternals are around a million years old. No telling how old some of the pantheons are thanks to conflicting stories. The Elder gods were driven from Earth before the dinosaurs. Set was technically trapped in another dimension with Gaea being the only elder god on Earth. He fed off the deaths of dinosaurs and was able to use that power to come back to Earth before being driven off again by Atum. Gaea is still on Earth and Atum founded the Egyptian gods at some point and ruled the Egypt area of Earth for awhile before returning to the sun. Thanks to the rise and fall of human cvilization we don't know quite when this was. Gaea has had so many children that again thanks to conflicting stories it is virtually impossible to name a time they came into being.

#135 Posted by 3cclark (11 posts) - - Show Bio

Apocalypse is said to be around 5,000 years old and came from Egypt, Ancient Egypt at the most maxes out at 5,000 years before Christ, Men have walk the earth for under 12-15 thousand years most. Marvel Universe however might have a different story. Some modern comic writers need to check some history before writing a comic, like with "Those Who Sit Above the Shadow," were the ones that created Asgardians well before that Gaea was said to be mother of all the modern Gods.

#136 Posted by rondoudou (182 posts) - - Show Bio

But the Greek gods don't need ambrosia to actually stay immortal,and not all of their powers comes from magic objects I mean Cronus is imprisoned in Tartarus and he hasn't actually died or Gaia .....

#137 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

@rondoudou said:

But the Greek gods don't need ambrosia to actually stay immortal,and not all of their powers comes from magic objects

True. Good point.

#138 Posted by Herokiller12344 (999 posts) - - Show Bio

What I hate about Marvel Cosmics like Living Tribunal and the Celestials is how they claim to be doing God's will straight from word of mouth. What gets to me is that the God I know would NEVER order someone to destroy entire universe's and uncountable trillions of lives. That's my problem with Marvel writers in general, they use the amounts of casualties in stories as nothing more than a statistic. The concept of a being that can kill billions just by raising his hand, and the fact that he gets no punishment is horrifying and terrible to even think about. Personally, I think every Marvel Cosmic minus Galactus and his ilk need to be retconed out of existence.

#139 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

@Herokiller12344: Whom are the ilk of Galactus?

#140 Posted by Herokiller12344 (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: Silver Surfer, Galacta, and Terrax. Wanna add anyone else in there be my guest.

#141 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

@Herokiller12344 said:

@PowerHerc: Silver Surfer, Galacta, and Terrax. Wanna add anyone else in there be my guest.

Oh, by his ilk you mean his Heralds. Got it.

#142 Posted by seekquaze (612 posts) - - Show Bio

@Herokiller12344 said:

What I hate about Marvel Cosmics like Living Tribunal and the Celestials is how they claim to be doing God's will straight from word of mouth. What gets to me is that the God I know would NEVER order someone to destroy entire universe's and uncountable trillions of lives. That's my problem with Marvel writers in general, they use the amounts of casualties in stories as nothing more than a statistic. The concept of a being that can kill billions just by raising his hand, and the fact that he gets no punishment is horrifying and terrible to even think about. Personally, I think every Marvel Cosmic minus Galactus and his ilk need to be retconed out of existence.

Your looking at this from a human perspective. Hermes stated he would not morn humanities passing because theyr lives are so short compared to him. Hermes (paraphrasing) "Should I mourn every fallen leave?" Gods live for thousands if not millions of years or longer and see mortal civlizations rise and fall. To them mortals for the most part must seem like ants.

Now, take that perspective and apply it to the cosmics. The Celestials travel through who knows how many galaxies and are as far beyond the gods as the gods are beyond primitive man. They can make worlds on a whim. Why should they care what humans think? Now take the Living Tirbunal. It deals with a near infinite of alternate realities and even more alien dimensions. It can comprehend all of that. Its perspective if so alien to a human we cannot even begin to truly concieve it. Why should it care about a single universe let alone a single planet. They are also in a way more forces of nature than what we might think of actual beings.

Also, for the record the cosmics do not represent the Judeo-Christian God. Its never been made clear on what the Judeo-Christian God is in Marvel, but currently it seems to be another skyfather. The cosmics represent the most powerful being in existence, but something else than a god.

#143 Posted by rasx (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Notice in the Avengers movie Fury referred to Thor and Loki as aliens not Gods.

#144 Posted by gravitypress (2069 posts) - - Show Bio

The gods collect the souls of mortals that worshiped them. Valkyries, Hela, and Hades come to mind. Even Mephisto. So they are gods in a sense.

#145 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

Even in myth there are loads and loads of 'gods' of one specific power/subject. In Greek myth there seems to be hundreds of fertility gods ect so Storm having some of the sane ability of Thor/Zues isn't that big of an issue for me to 'let go'. I personally see the cosmic abstracts as the true gods of Marvel but even they are below the one above all. I'd say they are all just heralds or angels of some sort.

#146 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

Whether the Olympians, the Asgardians, the Heliopolitans, etc. are true Gods or not, in the Marvel universe, is debatable. Whether Storm, the mortal, mutant elemental, is divine/a goddess or not isn't; clearly, she's not.

#147 Posted by Axis_Mundi (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: There is a scan from a Marvel Official Handbook in Comicvine (or some search engine) regarding Marvel's Council of Godheads and I swear it says that the God of the Abrahamic faiths has actually ATTENDED a meeting of the Godheads of Earth. If that is the case, then the Judeo-Christian God is indeed just another Skyfather and the Supreme Being of the Marvel Omniverse is actually Stan Lee/Jack Kirby. I can very happily live with that.

#148 Posted by ExtraLarge (243 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's the short version of my theory on Marvel's gods. At the beginning of the earth, there was a group of super powered beings that were either humans given power by Celestials or were powerful aliens. That group split up and each member went to various parts of the world. Each member had offspring, and each member told their offspring that they were the one who created the world. Thus, you have different groups of "gods" governing different areas of earth, all believing that they are descended from the creator of the world. They call themselves gods, because they were told they were gods, and the people they govern call them gods because that is what they were told. As for their various afterlifes, perhaps their life force is so strong, it cannot be destroyed, but can be directed to a place designed by one of the original group to contain them.

#149 Posted by ExtraLarge (243 posts) - - Show Bio

Another theory is that each pantheon created an alternate earth and then some type of Flashpoint event merged them all together. Also, there's that story in the Bible about angels coming down and producing offspring with humans. A third theory would be that the gods descended from angel bastards.

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