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    Hercules

    Character » Hercules appears in 1961 issues.

    One of six Olympian sons of Zeus, Hercules was born the savior of the Gods and mankind. Known as the Prince of Power, Hercules is one of the strongest beings in existence, an Olympian God and a modern superhero recognized throughout the world for his might. He has been a champion of mankind since ancient times and continues to defend the world in the modern age - most frequently as a member of the Avengers.

    Gods vs. Marvels, are the Marvel "Gods" really what they claim?

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    Fresh0133

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    #51  Edited By Fresh0133

    Man seekquaze, talking to you has been the most fun I've have on a message board in some time, normally I post something like this and I get a bunch of blank stare smiley icons.
     
    Wolverine, Ironman, and Thor all confirmed that it was Caps body, his mind or soul depending on who you ask was what was sent back in time.

    According to what's known, all humans have the potential to evolve beyond just being a baseline human.  Whether through technology or the X-Gene, it just depends on the individual, that's why Mutants are another species, they evolved with the X-Gene, others like Ironman use Technology to go beyond what's normally capable.
     
    What Vali Hawkwind was talking about was going beyond the gods, that's why all those items were required.  I'm with you though, I really want to see where all of this is going.

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    TheBlueAngel93

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    #52  Edited By TheBlueAngel93

    Wow, with just what U.S.Agent said is powerful, I like characters like Herc and Thor, but I personally think that "gods" like Thor are just powerful being from some other dimension or something close to that.

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    Fresh0133

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    #53  Edited By Fresh0133
    @War Killer:    It's certainly possible that they're from a different dimension, but the point remains just how far away from humans are they?  If someone gets their hands on the substances involved what does that make them?
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    seekquaze

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    #54  Edited By seekquaze
    @Fresh03: 
     
    I think you have brought up a lot of good points.

    The Captain America bit I attribute to not every writer having the full story on Cap.  I think when JMS did the story of Thor summoning his spirit the idea of the story and as far as JMS knew at the time Cap really was dead.  The quantum state of being both at the same time kind of gives an out for that.  
     
    I think humans do have the potential to evolve beyond the gods.  If we classify the gods as a higher race (power, lifespan, connection to the universe, higher dimension, whatever your reasoning would be. ) there are levels beyond that.  Hercules one time was evolved by the High Evolutionary beyond godhood.  I take that to mean godhood has its limits.  It is a certain state or type of being.  One can then quibble over whether that name is truly appropriate, but in this fictional universe that is what is called gods.   So far they have been portrayed as having aspects beyond science.  I think the idea is in Marvel that science as we know it has its limits.  Cho one time tried to analyze the Dream dimension and his calculations fell apart.  It seems to a degree symbolism is required to grasp the higher realms.  To a degree this makes sense because numbers and such are human constructs to symbolize different aspects of the universe.  Hence one reason for different languages.  
     
    As for Vali Hawkwind, I was left with the impression that he was talking about godhood of the same type as the Asgardians and Olympians had.  Those items are required to give one not just the power level of a god, but the more symbolic and mystical side as well.  I have this hypothesis I've had for a long time.  That is most gods are capable of more than they show, but most of them are just plain lazy.  They do not bother to fully develop their powers.  We have seen gods capable of creating view screens that can see between dimensions and across time.  Mephisto one time scanned multiple dimensions almost instantly to locat Hela and Thor.  Pak and Lente have pretty much confirmed most of the ancient myths are true so the stories of Olympians cursing people are true as well.  We have at various times seen gods use powers that border on "plot powers."  When Rogue drained Ares of power it was implied he was a virtually unlimited supply of mystical power.  Doom stated even the lowliest Asgardian god had a tremendous amount of power at their disposal.  I do not doubt there are different levels to gods.  Zeus would be more powerful than a minor river god.  I think gods think they have forever so they never bother to develop anything beyond their most basic abilities.  The more powerful ones are either those like Hercules who start out amazingly gifted and never bother to develop their other abilities or ones like Athena and Zeus who learn to use their powers in more creative ways.  I think what Vali is going for is not only to get the power of a god, but to use the knowledge he has acquired over his long-live to use those powers to their full extent.  Otherwise, he would not bother with it.
     
    One final note, about the dimesion aspect.  I stated that because most gods live in another dimesion.  How they got there is a matter of some debate.  One common theory holds most gods originated on Earth and eventually moved to their current homes.  Another is they started out in their home dimensions and eventually found Earth.  There is support for both. 
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    Emmanuel_Eden_azari_el_Bey

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    Belief is the main factor much like you stated. Though only a part of the equation, Faith, Love, Truth, Peace and Justice the others. Though Beauty is a factor it will come later

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    PowerHerc

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    #56  Edited By PowerHerc
    @Emmanuel_Eden_azari_el_Bey: 
    Hmm . . . judging from your post and your obvious Islamic standards for religious belief, you may have added  Alllah to the list of deities to be questioned and debated here.  Was that your intent?  Allah specifically and Islam in general are practically never depicted or referenced in comics (why not seems obvious), so why apply this standard to comic characters?  But again, why not?  For that matter, since every other defunct, pagan and current mainstream religion has been shown in comics in some fashion or other; Islam is probably overdue for some attention in this medium.  Of course, because of the risk, it won't happen.  Too bad though,  maybe outsiders would have more of an understanding and insiders could be a little more flexible and tolerant.  They sure seem to expect eveyone else to tolerate them.   
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    "Colossus"

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    #57  Edited By "Colossus"

    the celestials didnt create the gods.
     
    when the earth form it gained conscience (demuirge)
    and created the elder gods including gaea who were beyond physical form but manifested in physical form
    gaea then created every other earth god there is, they all descend from her
     
    gaea is much older than any eternal
    and the eternals are pretty much based on the gods (expecially the olympions)

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    RJMooreII

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    #58  Edited By RJMooreII

    I think in Marvel (and DC) a 'god' is more of a classification term for a being with 1) innate cosmic powers; 2) a direct connection to both the physical and mystical world and; 3) embodying a major Abstract entity/concept/force. It's not a religious term so much as a sort of related powerset - like a mutant.

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    Primmaster64

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    #59  Edited By Primmaster64

    I still say the are  just acient Superhumans or ancient aliens.

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    RJMooreII

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    #60  Edited By RJMooreII
    @Primmaster64 said:

    " I still say the are  just acient Superhumans or ancient aliens. "

    That doesn't mean they're not gods, by Marvel's definition. Or, for that matter, Greek, Norse and Shinto mythology. Not every ancient religion held deities as transcendent Manichean entities - some of them were physical beings with vast superhuman powers who lived on mountains or in the sky.
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    Fresh0133

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    #61  Edited By Fresh0133
    @RJMooreII: 
    Which falls into my belief that Gods is merely a term used to identify something that is beyond human perception, a being that can tow Manhattan Island by himself is beyond your conception, but does that make a being like Hercules a god or merely super human?  There are plenty of humans in the MU that could pull it off, Hulk, Wonderman, ect...., so what makes "Gods" so special?
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    PowerHerc

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    #62  Edited By PowerHerc
    @Fresh03:
    the Hulk could indeed perform a feat such as towing Manhattan Island (Wonderman could not),  but, although he isn't immortal/deified, he's hardly human.  He's been mutated into his super-human form by scientific means; he's not human anymore.
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    Primmaster64

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    #63  Edited By Primmaster64

    They're not really Gods.

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    Primmaster64

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    #64  Edited By Primmaster64

    i stand corrected

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    PowerHerc

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    #65  Edited By PowerHerc
    @Primmaster64 said:
    "i stand corrected "

    How?  What is your opinion now?  Why?   
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    BK-77-7

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    #66  Edited By BK-77-7

    Interesting.

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    CosmicGod432

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    #67  Edited By CosmicGod432
    The term "god" in my book is comparing one to a human or normal mortal, which if you do compare Thor to say a regular normal citizen, he is very much indeed a "god", but if you compare him to some of the other superheroes in the marvel universe he seems "just a above average student in the class", if in marvel Thor is considered a god, than silver surfer, thanos, and even the magus is godlike.
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    PowerHerc

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    #68  Edited By PowerHerc
    @CosmicGod432 said:
    "
    The term "god" in my book is comparing one to a human or normal mortal, which if you do compare Thor to say a regular normal citizen, he is very much indeed a "god", but if you compare him to some of the other superheroes in the marvel universe he seems "just a above average student in the class", if in marvel Thor is considered a god, than silver surfer, thanos, and even the magus is godlike.
    "

    These are good points and I tend to agree.
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    Primmaster64

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    #69  Edited By Primmaster64
    @PowerHerc: Makes me wonder something though. Have any of this ''gods'' have talked about TOAA?
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    PowerHerc

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    #70  Edited By PowerHerc
    @Primmaster64 said:
    " @PowerHerc: Makes me wonder something though. Have any of this ''gods'' have talked about TOAA? "

    I think I remember Thor making reference to an even higher authority than the gods in one of the "Thor" Annuals.  It was an obvious reference to God as generally thought of in Western Culture.  I can't remember which one it was right now, but I'm pretty sure it was in a back-up feature.
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    Primmaster64

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    #71  Edited By Primmaster64
    @PowerHerc: Sorry for the late reply, that musta've been cool, I also heard that Thor once went to a chruch.
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    PowerHerc

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    #72  Edited By PowerHerc
    @Primmaster64 said:
    " @PowerHerc: Sorry for the late reply, that musta've been cool, I also heard that Thor once went to a chruch. "

    That sounds familiar but I cannot veritfy.
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    Primmaster64

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    #73  Edited By Primmaster64
    @PowerHerc: Ok
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    Valtot

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    #74  Edited By Valtot

    ye gods in marvels are like they should be

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    Primmaster64

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    #75  Edited By Primmaster64
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    PowerHerc

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    #76  Edited By PowerHerc
    @Primmaster64 said:
    "? "

    I guess Valtot likes them just the way they are?
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    Primmaster64

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    #77  Edited By Primmaster64

    Probably I guess

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    PowerHerc

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    #78  Edited By PowerHerc

    I like how many more god/myth-centric stories Marvel has been doing lately.  I hope this trend continues.
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    SladeRogers

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    #79  Edited By SladeRogers

    I never really considered Gods in comics Gods, I've always thought of them as superhumans. For example, I never thought of Hercules as a God, he's no different than the kid from the X-Men or anyone else with super-strength. I mean if that's the case then wouldn't the Beyond be the God of....the Beyond or something like that?Yes, a silly comparison, but that's how I feel. We should be praising Storm as a goddess thanks to her power over the weather, Jean Grey should've been praised since she was almost to god status, and let's not forget dear old Wanda who can bend reality like a piece of paper. The case I'm arguing might be a bit confusing, but hopefully everybody gets the jist of what I'm sayin' here.
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    PowerHerc

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    #80  Edited By PowerHerc
    @SladeRogers said:
    "
    I never really considered Gods in comics Gods, I've always thought of them as superhumans. For example, I never thought of Hercules as a God, he's no different than the kid from the X-Men or anyone else with super-strength. I mean if that's the case then wouldn't the Beyond be the God of....the Beyond or something like that?Yes, a silly comparison, but that's how I feel. We should be praising Storm as a goddess thanks to her power over the weather, Jean Grey should've been praised since she was almost to god status, and let's not forget dear old Wanda who can bend reality like a piece of paper. The case I'm arguing might be a bit confusing, but hopefully everybody gets the jist of what I'm sayin' here. "

    So what you're saying is; we shouldn't regard or refer to comic character gods/immortals closely based on actual gods from various world mythology's because they're actually superhumans, but we should regard and refer to mortal superhumans/mutants as goddesses due to their superpowers despite the fact that they are mortal and (except for Storm) have not been regarded or worshipped as deities.  Is that the jist of your post?   
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    Primmaster64

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    #81  Edited By Primmaster64
    @SladeRogers said:
    "
    I never really considered Gods in comics Gods, I've always thought of them as superhumans. For example, I never thought of Hercules as a God, he's no different than the kid from the X-Men or anyone else with super-strength. I mean if that's the case then wouldn't the Beyond be the God of....the Beyond or something like that?Yes, a silly comparison, but that's how I feel. We should be praising Storm as a goddess thanks to her power over the weather, Jean Grey should've been praised since she was almost to god status, and let's not forget dear old Wanda who can bend reality like a piece of paper. The case I'm arguing might be a bit confusing, but hopefully everybody gets the jist of what I'm sayin' here. "
    Nice.
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    SladeRogers

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    #82  Edited By SladeRogers
    @PowerHerc:
    Not in the least bit, dude. I'm sayin' that even though they supposed to be the same Gods from the mythologies doesn't mean they actually are. I added in Storm, Jean, and Wanda by means of sayin' these "Gods" are no different than the other superhumans in Marvel. You could say I'm agreeing with what U.S.Agent had to say about them which he had a good point.
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    neonheart098

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    #83  Edited By neonheart098

    lol.....man those are gods in comics godsin real life are way more powerful than that......... :)

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    blur99

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    #84  Edited By blur99

    They are deities. 
    They were worshiped by various cultures.   Cultures such example Celtic, Norse or Germanic, and Greek peoples. 
    Of course in Marvel's hierarchy  these beings are not at the top.  Over time Marvel (and DC have) made beings who are way more powerful than these deities.  However that doesn't change the fact that they were seen as divine beings by cultures.  In Greece there are ruins of temples to these beings still left.

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    SC

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    #85  Edited By SC  Moderator

    Too many awesome and epic posts for me to refer to, and I am probably repeating, but my quick 2 cents, is to reply directly to the title, what they claim, and how people interpret their claims to be a totally different things.  
    Many of these characters who are considered gods, literally preexist, in a sense before the english language as its used today. Which sets up an interesting and funny problem? If Thor as a child really was speaking English? lol 
     
    The word, origin, and meaning of the term god can be pretty loose and applied in a variety of ways. and so your answer on these matters will depend entirely on how you apply these definitions with consistency. God (small g, god, the use of capital G there being for the start of the sentence) characters really are gods can be right, or god characters are just mutants, or meta humans or even just humans and so on, and be right too.  
     
    Plus remember how people define themselves vs how they are labeled can be a delicate subject as well. Some cultures and countries are stricter than others as a whole, others allow more personal choice and freedom. 

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    #86  Edited By SC  Moderator

    God and godlike can be quite different as well.  
     
    Silver Surfer is godlike, but place him in a room with kids after a year of mythology classes and scandinavian history lessons, and he is just a powerful alien. Put Thor there, and he is a god. He might not be considered the real god (especially if they were good students considering Marvel's Thor), but if he ticks enough of the right boxes, his look, his hammer, and especially his name, have power. People form opinions based on those things, and their knowledge plays into things. We know, as humans, we learn things about each other and the past, and what words mean. Words or appearances do not have to be used accurately to send a message.  Probably over time, (definitely in the past) Surfer may progress from being godlike to considered as a god. Especially once he starts hitting newspapers and educational books (or cults pop up)
     
    If tomorrow a giant truck transformed into a robot in the middle of New York with Autobot stickers and logos on it, is it an actual Autobot Transformer? Or could it be a shapeshifting fairy from England that makes people see things? If a short, large headed, green, humanoid jumped out a flying saucer two days from now, saying its from Mars, what will people make of it? It fits a generic and popular perception of what aliens are. it could just be a very mutated guy from Canada with a very advanced plane. 

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    Theworldbreaker

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    #87  Edited By Theworldbreaker

    (other then TOAA) these are all the gods that marvel needs.

     
     


     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     


     
     
     
     
     
     
     

     
     

     
     
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    PowerHerc

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    #88  Edited By PowerHerc
    @SladeRogers said:
    "@PowerHerc:
    Not in the least bit, dude. I'm sayin' that even though they supposed to be the same Gods from the mythologies doesn't mean they actually are. I added in Storm, Jean, and Wanda by means of sayin' these "Gods" are no different than the other superhumans in Marvel. You could say I'm agreeing with what U.S.Agent had to say about them which he had a good point. "

    Yeah, I understand what your (and USAgent's) point.   
     
    I guess the term "god" might as well just be another label to distinquish a certain type of superhuman from another.  In the Marvel Universe there are Eternals, mutants, mutates, atlanteans, Inhumans, deviants, demons, etc. and gods.  They're all superhumans, but where their power comes from or how they were empowered is what's different.  Also, another point to be made is that all gods are not on the same power-level.  Neither are all mutants, Eternals, Inhumans, or any other type of superhumans.  There are many superhumans who have power or abilities on par or greater than the gods, but that doesn't make them gods or mean they should be considered such anymore than gods should be considered mutants or demons should be considered Inhumans.  Similar or comparable powers/abilities doesn't change what type of being one is.  A god is a god.  A mutant is mutant. A demon is a demon.  All are superhumanly powerful, but all are not the same in origin, empowerment and/or appearance.    
     
    Maybe the gods aren't deities in the sense that they created and control the universe, but they're still separate and distinct from these other types of superhumans based on their origins and characteristics.  That would mean that mutants such as Ororo, Jean and Wanda ( no matter how powerful ) still aren't gods.  Perhaps a new label is merited, but it's seems ridiculous to remove the label 'gods' from one group whom you think it doesn't suit just to place it on others who it still doesn't fit.
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    Primmaster64

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    #89  Edited By Primmaster64
    @Theworldbreaker: :D
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    SladeRogers

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    #90  Edited By SladeRogers
    @PowerHerc:
    I understand your point perfectly. I enjoyed readin' your post and all your point valid to the very last of them. This is why I try extremely had to not use Greek, Norse, Roman, African, etc. in any of my stories. I mean I use their names and titles, but they're not the actual gods. They are all very powerful superhumans who were augmented by this guy named G.O.D. (Gerard Otis Daniels) who created an army of angels and uses the "Gods" as generals for each squadron. Back on topic, I think if they use Gods, can they please make them like.....not as killable as the rest of the races? I mean when Sentry killed Ares I was pissed beyond belief so I just thought I should say that.
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    PowerHerc

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    #91  Edited By PowerHerc
    @SladeRogers:
    Hey, thanks. 
     
    I agree that a 'god' should be extemely difficult, maybe even impossible, to kill.   
     If the comic creators want to call characters gods and have us believe them to be such, they need to keep the gods at an obviously higher level than all but only the tip-top most powerful superhumans.
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    #92  Edited By SC  Moderator

    I don't know, in one sense if people started wanting that strictness of accuracy then people would have to stop using the term black and white when it came to describing people of other color, since its not fully accurate. (or rather those words have developed new meanings)
     
    I think people get to hung up on the power side and distinctions, are gods not also defined by worship, prayer and ability to aid? Then if you go up the ladder to characters like Odin, then you get characters who can 'create life' and his ancestors in one sense, created all that they know of him as the highest power.  
     
    I agree with the difficulty to kill one too. Marvel seems pretty on to it with explanations when it comes to Eternals, and they use to with Thor side of things, I winder why they still don't. I think its a history thing. 

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    PowerHerc

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    #93  Edited By PowerHerc
    @SC said:
    "I don't know, in one sense if people started wanting that strictness of accuracy then people would have to stop using the term black and white when it came to describing people of other color, since its not fully accurate. (or rather those words have developed new meanings) I think people get to hung up on the power side and distinctions, are gods not also defined by worship, prayer and ability to aid? Then if you go up the ladder to characters like Odin, then you get characters who can 'create life' and his ancestors in one sense, created all that they know of him as the highest power.   I agree with the difficulty to kill one too. Marvel seems pretty on to it with explanations when it comes to Eternals, and they use to with Thor side of things, I winder why they still don't. I think its a history thing.  "

    Good points on ability to create life and being recognized as the 'highest power.' 
     
    I don't know why Marvel hasn't stayed consistent with their traditional postition on how difficult it is/was/should be to kill a god.  I suspect it has something to do with trying to show just how powerful one (or more) of their characters is/are.  I mean, what better way to show how bad-ass a character is than to have him/her kill a god?
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    #94  Edited By Primmaster64

    hmmm Chaos War...That Mika0something being is an Abstract right?

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    #95  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @PowerHerc said:
    " @SC said:
    "I don't know, in one sense if people started wanting that strictness of accuracy then people would have to stop using the term black and white when it came to describing people of other color, since its not fully accurate. (or rather those words have developed new meanings) I think people get to hung up on the power side and distinctions, are gods not also defined by worship, prayer and ability to aid? Then if you go up the ladder to characters like Odin, then you get characters who can 'create life' and his ancestors in one sense, created all that they know of him as the highest power.   I agree with the difficulty to kill one too. Marvel seems pretty on to it with explanations when it comes to Eternals, and they use to with Thor side of things, I winder why they still don't. I think its a history thing.  "
    Good points on ability to create life and being recognized as the 'highest power.'  I don't know why Marvel hasn't stayed consistent with their traditional postition on how difficult it is/was/should be to kill a god.  I suspect it has something to do with trying to show just how powerful one (or more) of their characters is/are.  I mean, what better way to show how bad-ass a character is than to have him/her kill a god? "
     
    Thanks. Sometimes, its funny, because Thor naturally is in awe of his father at times, and probably genuinely believes in the stories of how people were created, Asgard and the Nine Worlds and all that, his uncles, grandfather, great grandfather even meeting some, as well as meeting Ymir as well. Except in Marvel, he is often running or bumping into Hercules who has his own mythology, but they both get along well, and don't seem to have any problem with each others understanding of the world. Its nice really, in a way it could be considered they have different religious views, but still get on. lol Way too cheesy a point to make, but still.  
     
    Yeah, I think that was definitely the case with Ares. Its bittersweet, since Ares was awesome in his mini, by Oeming, but not many people read that, and then Bendis brought him into the mainstream audience and actually gave him some pretty cool moments, but as soon as Sentry ripped him apart, I had this sort of feeling that Bendis was building him up for that. Then I was sort of hoping that Ares might have returned by the last issue somehow lol, but eh...  
     
    Chaos War could have been a nice opportunity but Hercs powered up. 
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    #96  Edited By PowerHerc
    @Primmaster64 said:
    "hmmm Chaos War...That Mika0something being is an Abstract right?"

    It appears so.   
     
    Eternity told Herc that he could'nt help him fight the Chaos King/Mikaboshi because he was the 'darkness and chaos' that existed before existence and that they (Eternity and the Chaos King) walk hand in hand.  He also stated if he fought the Chaos King he would be fighting himself.  So you see, Eternity definitely put the Chaos King on the same level as and defined him as an abstact being.
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    #97  Edited By Primmaster64
    @PowerHerc: Which brings me to this......WHERE THE F*CK IS THE LIVING TRIBUNAL???? Taking a lunch break?
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    #98  Edited By blur99
    @Primmaster64 said:

    " @PowerHerc: Which brings me to this......WHERE THE F*CK IS THE LIVING TRIBUNAL???? Taking a lunch break? "

     I haven't seen that comic but   usually LT shows up when the universe is endangered and his judgment is needed.
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    #99  Edited By PowerHerc
      
    @blur99:
     
    I think it's safe to say the universe is endangered here.  LT showing up would be justified and make sense. 
    @Primmaster64 said:
    " @PowerHerc: Which brings me to this......WHERE THE F*CK IS THE LIVING TRIBUNAL???? Taking a lunch break?"
    Apparently.  The writers probably could'nt think of a viable way of having him in the story, so they left him out with no explanation.  Just speculating.
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    #100  Edited By Primmaster64
    @PowerHerc: He could have ended this easily...There's still one more issue right? Maybe he'll show up there

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