Did Hercules get stronger?

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#101 Posted by Erik (31626 posts) - - Show Bio

The most consistent showings of Samson put him in the 70 ton range. His strength varies a lot though. But he is not a threat to Hulk of Hercules as a stronger brick. 

#102 Posted by Theracles (1366 posts) - - Show Bio
loveNwar said:
"I still don't see evidence to consider Hercules stronger than Samson. You use Hulk as the level example between them, so you should know that Samson has stood very solid against Hulk in many ocasions, probably more than Herc."

That was years ago, Hulk has gotten stronger while Samson did not. Here is evidence, Samson was easily defeated by She-Hulk who punched to another country while Hercules has defeated She-Hulk. Also Doc Samson has no considerable strength feats that are on par with Hercules, Hercules has dragged the island of Manhattan that weighs over 99 billion tons, hurled a giant Sequia, lift and tossGodzilla who weighs 60,000 tons. Hercules lifts easily over 100 tons while Doc Samson is constantly said to be able to lift 70 tons.
#103 Posted by loveNwar (435 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't care so much for a number taken from any given sheet (60 ton this, 80 ton that...) but more to feats and situations. The best example, where we had all these people united for comparisson was during the mindless Hulk saga. Samson was the one who stood better against the Hulk (And Hercules had help from a bunch of heroes). In fact, he was the only one who got to knock the green guy down.

#104 Posted by Theracles (1366 posts) - - Show Bio
loveNwar said:
"I don't care so much for a number taken from any given sheet (60 ton this, 80 ton that...) but more to feats and situations. The best example, where we had all these people united for comparisson was during the mindless Hulk saga. Samson was the one who stood better against the Hulk (And Hercules had help from a bunch of heroes). In fact, he was the only one who got to knock the green guy down. "

That was a long time ago, strenght in Marvel is measured by who can lift more, if you don't care you are ignoring facts. 70 tons is nowhere near guys who lift billions of tons. Also Samson was owned by She-Hulk recently and Herc defeated her.
#105 Posted by loveNwar (435 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, that's quite fair.But still, i'll call it writter's negligence then. If you are writting a story on a certain hero, you shouldn't write things that go way beyong his limits. Herc dragging the island is such! Hulk holding a mountain is another! After that, how do you go back to place these guys fighting anything below galactus, for God's sake?? That's why i never even mention the mountain holding, that was just stupid. But i guess we'll just have to live with these non-consistent arguments. Hulk has gotten up while being on the floor and stepped over by Ironclad, and Ironclad weights much more than a mountain anyway. Oh well...

#106 Posted by Erik (31626 posts) - - Show Bio

Since his power "stabilized" Samson has been consistently shown as weaker than before. 

#107 Posted by Theracles (1366 posts) - - Show Bio
loveNwar said:
"Ok, that's quite fair.But still, i'll call it writter's negligence then. If you are writting a story on a certain hero, you shouldn't write things that go way beyong his limits. Herc dragging the island is such! Hulk holding a mountain is another! After that, how do you go back to place these guys fighting anything below galactus, for God's sake?? That's why i never even mention the mountain holding, that was just stupid. But i guess we'll just have to live with these non-consistent arguments. Hulk has gotten up while being on the floor and stepped over by Ironclad, and Ironclad weights much more than a mountain anyway. Oh well..."
Herc and Hulk's case is different, Hercules is constantly shown to do these feats of strength so it is not about the artist because Hercules is always to be this strong with nearly every writer, the same is with Hulk, now Doc's case is different.
#108 Posted by seekquaze (606 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting discussion.  I think part of the problem is some people are leaving out important details of circumstances in these discussions.

1.  When She-Hulk arm wrestled Hercules he was mortal.

2. Mortal Hercules is not as powerful as immortal Hercules.  Some writers interpret it as Herc merely losing a large amount of his durability.  Others interpreted it as both his strength and durability being cut in half if not more.  Zeus stripped Hercules of his immortality for a while in the nineties as a form of punishment for some percieved slight.

3.  Mortal Hercules is usually clean-shaven.  Probable to play off the Kevin Sorbo series at the time.  This was the Hercules that fought Hulk in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed.  Herc's durability was gone and it is possible the writer decreased Herc's strength as well which is why the Hulk beat him so badly.

4.  Hercules is a god.  He was born a demi-god, but Zeus made him a full immortal upon his death.  Ares recently admitted as much.

5.  Hercules cannot increase his strength.  I do not know where this idea came from.  The thing is Hercules is just so dang strong.

6.  Hercules and Thor are equal strength wise.  Every contest of strength from arm wrestling to outright battles as established this as far as I know.  As warriors go there are about equal.  Hercules is  bit better wrestler due to having to use those moves more and lacking Thor's other powers.

7.  The Hulk 9/10 maxes out around Herc/Thor level of strength so they are all about equal.  The Hulk's strength rarely demonstrates getting substantially higher even in his mindless incarnations.  All three have their own massive strength feats.  The Hulk is better known for his because he has a long running series and strength is his niche.    Thor has his share of massive strength feats, but is less known for them due to his other powers.  Hercules has often only been a guest-star in either Thor or the Avengers so his strength has been displayed less, but the few strength feats he has are massive and comparable to the likes of Thor and Hulk.

8.  The twelve labors did happen.  Hercules confirmed then in the "New Labors of Hercules" series and Ares confirmed them recently.  The sixth or seventh labor is one reason for Ares' hatred of Herc.  The only one Herc possible didn't due was the cleaing of the Aegean stables which Gilgamesh probable did.

9.  Holding up the sky is a questionable feat.  When dealing with gods symbolism is often important.  Myths are not always meant to be taken literally, but in this case I think it would still count as a major strength feat.  The symbolism of the story and situation is Atlas has to carry the weight of the heavens (or world) on his shoulders.  That would be a huge load to bear for anyone.

#109 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio
LordCosmicKing said:
"their are beings far stronger and able to increase their strength far faster then hulk.examples are silver surfer an drax they are both able to draw in energy and increase their base lvl.edit: hulks base lvl is 8o tons so samson matching hulk isnt that impressive when hulk is not enraged."
No their isn't.
Moderator
#110 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio
seekquaze said:
"Interesting discussion.  I think part of the problem is some people are leaving out important details of circumstances in these discussions.1.  When She-Hulk arm wrestled Hercules he was mortal.2. Mortal Hercules is not as powerful as immortal Hercules.  Some writers interpret it as Herc merely losing a large amount of his durability.  Others interpreted it as both his strength and durability being cut in half if not more.  Zeus stripped Hercules of his immortality for a while in the nineties as a form of punishment for some percieved slight.3.  Mortal Hercules is usually clean-shaven.  Probable to play off the Kevin Sorbo series at the time.  This was the Hercules that fought Hulk in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed.  Herc's durability was gone and it is possible the writer decreased Herc's strength as well which is why the Hulk beat him so badly.4.  Hercules is a god.  He was born a demi-god, but Zeus made him a full immortal upon his death.  Ares recently admitted as much.5.  Hercules cannot increase his strength.  I do not know where this idea came from.  The thing is Hercules is just so dang strong. 6.  Hercules and Thor are equal strength wise.  Every contest of strength from arm wrestling to outright battles as established this as far as I know.  As warriors go there are about equal.  Hercules is  bit better wrestler due to having to use those moves more and lacking Thor's other powers.7.  The Hulk 9/10 maxes out around Herc/Thor level of strength so they are all about equal.  The Hulk's strength rarely demonstrates getting substantially higher even in his mindless incarnations.  All three have their own massive strength feats.  The Hulk is better known for his because he has a long running series and strength is his niche.    Thor has his share of massive strength feats, but is less known for them due to his other powers.  Hercules has often only been a guest-star in either Thor or the Avengers so his strength has been displayed less, but the few strength feats he has are massive and comparable to the likes of Thor and Hulk.8.  The twelve labors did happen.  Hercules confirmed then in the "New Labors of Hercules" series and Ares confirmed them recently.  The sixth or seventh labor is one reason for Ares' hatred of Herc.  The only one Herc possible didn't due was the cleaing of the Aegean stables which Gilgamesh probable did.9.  Holding up the sky is a questionable feat.  When dealing with gods symbolism is often important.  Myths are not always meant to be taken literally, but in this case I think it would still count as a major strength feat.  The symbolism of the story and situation is Atlas has to carry the weight of the heavens (or world) on his shoulders.  That would be a huge load to bear for anyone."
Good post, nice analysis, Welcome to the vine.
#111 Edited by Theracles (1366 posts) - - Show Bio
seekquaze said:
"Interesting discussion.  I think part of the problem is some people are leaving out important details of circumstances in these discussions.1.  When She-Hulk arm wrestled Hercules he was mortal.2. Mortal Hercules is not as powerful as immortal Hercules.  Some writers interpret it as Herc merely losing a large amount of his durability.  Others interpreted it as both his strength and durability being cut in half if not more.  Zeus stripped Hercules of his immortality for a while in the nineties as a form of punishment for some percieved slight.3.  Mortal Hercules is usually clean-shaven.  Probable to play off the Kevin Sorbo series at the time.  This was the Hercules that fought Hulk in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed.  Herc's durability was gone and it is possible the writer decreased Herc's strength as well which is why the Hulk beat him so badly.4.  Hercules is a god.  He was born a demi-god, but Zeus made him a full immortal upon his death.  Ares recently admitted as much.5.  Hercules cannot increase his strength.  I do not know where this idea came from.  The thing is Hercules is just so dang strong. 6.  Hercules and Thor are equal strength wise.  Every contest of strength from arm wrestling to outright battles as established this as far as I know.  As warriors go there are about equal.  Hercules is  bit better wrestler due to having to use those moves more and lacking Thor's other powers.7.  The Hulk 9/10 maxes out around Herc/Thor level of strength so they are all about equal.  The Hulk's strength rarely demonstrates getting substantially higher even in his mindless incarnations.  All three have their own massive strength feats.  The Hulk is better known for his because he has a long running series and strength is his niche.    Thor has his share of massive strength feats, but is less known for them due to his other powers.  Hercules has often only been a guest-star in either Thor or the Avengers so his strength has been displayed less, but the few strength feats he has are massive and comparable to the likes of Thor and Hulk.8.  The twelve labors did happen.  Hercules confirmed then in the "New Labors of Hercules" series and Ares confirmed them recently.  The sixth or seventh labor is one reason for Ares' hatred of Herc.  The only one Herc possible didn't due was the cleaing of the Aegean stables which Gilgamesh probable did.9.  Holding up the sky is a questionable feat.  When dealing with gods symbolism is often important.  Myths are not always meant to be taken literally, but in this case I think it would still count as a major strength feat.  The symbolism of the story and situation is Atlas has to carry the weight of the heavens (or world) on his shoulders.  That would be a huge load to bear for anyone."

Nice post and like AtPhantom said, Welcome to The Vine.
#112 Posted by PowerHerc (81623 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc didn't actually get a Strength upgrade nor did he need one.  Marvel simply (finally) made his classical mythological feats canon which should dispel any doubts about Herc's truly limitles strength.  He's always been one of Marvels top dogs Strength-wise.  Marvel's Strongest heroes are :  Hulk, Hercules, Gladiator,Thor, Hyperion,Sentry, Gilgamesh and Silver Surfer in that order.  I wish the Thing was up there as well, but alas, he isn't.  Once more, Hercules is a full-god.  Hercules was worshipped by the ancient Roman as the God of Strength and Marvel also considers him as such.  If magnitude of demonstrated feats of strength is the ultimate criteria for determining who is the strongest, then nobody matches or surpasses Herc.  No, not even the Hulk.  
 
Lion of Olympus . . . Prince of Power . . . God of Strength . . . World's Mightiest Immortal . . . HERCULES! 

#113 Edited by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Hercules was the God of Strength. I don't know where you're getting your facts.

Sorry. I didn't realize that was an old post.

#114 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro: Hercules was the God of Strength. I don't know where you're getting your facts.

Sorry. I didn't realize that was an old post.

I don't even know what you're talking about. If you're going to respond to something so old..you could at least quote me.

Moderator
#115 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro: Hercules was the God of Strength. I don't know where you're getting your facts.

Sorry. I didn't realize that was an old post.

I don't even know what you're talking about. If you're going to respond to something so old..you could at least quote me.

I didn't check the date. This.

The Hunter said:
"In theory..... because Hercules is the god of Strength, can't he just increase his strength at will to whatever he wants?"
Hercules isn't the god of anything.Kratos is the Greek God of Strength and Power.Hercules isn't even a real god.

#116 Edited by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro said:

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro: Hercules was the God of Strength. I don't know where you're getting your facts.

Sorry. I didn't realize that was an old post.

I don't even know what you're talking about. If you're going to respond to something so old..you could at least quote me.

I didn't check the date. This.

@vance_astro said:
The Hunter said:
"In theory..... because Hercules is the god of Strength, can't he just increase his strength at will to whatever he wants?"
Hercules isn't the god of anything.Kratos is the Greek God of Strength and Power.Hercules isn't even a real god.

As far as I know in actual Greek mythology, Hercules ISN'T the god of anything. He's a demigod. His father is Zues and his mother is a mortal woman. The Greek God of strength & power is Kratos\Cratus.

Moderator
#117 Posted by PowerHerc (81623 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules was worshiped in Rome as the God of Strength.

#118 Edited by Sumnerus (24 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules is stronger then Thor. not by much, but he's used to using his fists more whereas Thor is always hammered up. As far as i'm aware Zues recently stripped Hercules of much of his power, forcing him to rely on ancient anchanted weapons and a couple of milennia of fighting experience.

#119 Edited by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Like I said... I don't know where you got that from. Every source going as far back as Hesiod and Homer (the beginning of Western Literature and the beginning of the Greek alphabet) mentions that Hercules became a god at the end of his life on Earth or was born one (although this ones less common).

Hear, pow'rful, Hercules [Herakles] untam'd and strong, to whom vast hands, and mighty works belong, Almighty Titan, prudent and benign, of various forms, eternal and divine, Father of Time [khronos], the theme of gen'ral praise, ineffable, ador'd in various ways. Magnanimous, in divination skill'd and in the athletic labours of the field. 'Tis thine strong archer, all things to devour, supreme, all-helping, all-producing pow'r; To thee mankind as their deliv'rer pray, whose arm can chase the savage tribes away: Uweary'd, earth's best blossom, offspring fair, to whom calm peace, and peaceful works are dear. Self-born, with primogenial fires you shine, and various names and strength of heart are thine. Thy mighty head supports the morning light, and bears untam'd, the silent gloomy night; From east to west endu'd with strength divine, twelve glorious labours to absolve is thine; Supremely skill'd, thou reign'st in heav'n's abodes, thyself a God amid'st th' immortal Gods. With arms unshaken, infinite, divine, come, blessed pow'r, and to our rites incline; The mitigations of disease convey, and drive disasterous maladies away. Come, shake the branch with thy almighty arm, dismiss thy darts and noxious fate disarm. - Orphic Hymn It doesn't really matter. It was an old post and had I seen the date I wouldn't have responded. I'm sorry.

@sumnerus said:

Hercules is stronger then Thor. not by much, but he's used to using his fists more whereas Thor is always hammered up. As far as i'm aware Zues recently stripped Hercules of much of his power, forcing him to rely on ancient anchanted weapons and a couple of milennia of fighting experience.

Thor and Hercules are equal in strength (usually), but if either one is stronger my money's on Thor.

#120 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Like I said... I don't know where you got that from. Every source going as far back as Hesiod and Homer (the beginning of Western Literature and the beginning of the Greek alphabet) mentions that Hercules became a god at the end of his life on Earth or was born one (although this ones less common).

Hear, pow'rful, Hercules [Herakles] untam'd and strong, to whom vast hands, and mighty works belong, Almighty Titan, prudent and benign, of various forms, eternal and divine, Father of Time [khronos], the theme of gen'ral praise, ineffable, ador'd in various ways. Magnanimous, in divination skill'd and in the athletic labours of the field. 'Tis thine strong archer, all things to devour, supreme, all-helping, all-producing pow'r; To thee mankind as their deliv'rer pray, whose arm can chase the savage tribes away: Uweary'd, earth's best blossom, offspring fair, to whom calm peace, and peaceful works are dear. Self-born, with primogenial fires you shine, and various names and strength of heart are thine. Thy mighty head supports the morning light, and bears untam'd, the silent gloomy night; From east to west endu'd with strength divine, twelve glorious labours to absolve is thine; Supremely skill'd, thou reign'st in heav'n's abodes, thyself a God amid'st th' immortal Gods. With arms unshaken, infinite, divine, come, blessed pow'r, and to our rites incline; The mitigations of disease convey, and drive disasterous maladies away. Come, shake the branch with thy almighty arm, dismiss thy darts and noxious fate disarm. - Orphic Hymn It doesn't really matter. It was an old post and had I seen the date I wouldn't have responded. I'm sorry.

If you are born of a god and a mortal..that makes you a "demi-god" does it not? I googled "Greek God of Strength". The name that continuously comes up is Kratos\Cratus. I also googled "Is Hercules a God" the answer I got is no. I'm not pulling this out of my a$$. Try it yourself. Google those things and tell me what you get.

Moderator
#121 Edited by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio
@vance_astro said:

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro: Like I said... I don't know where you got that from. Every source going as far back as Hesiod and Homer (the beginning of Western Literature and the beginning of the Greek alphabet) mentions that Hercules became a god at the end of his life on Earth or was born one (although this ones less common).

Hear, pow'rful, Hercules [Herakles] untam'd and strong, to whom vast hands, and mighty works belong, Almighty Titan, prudent and benign, of various forms, eternal and divine, Father of Time [khronos], the theme of gen'ral praise, ineffable, ador'd in various ways. Magnanimous, in divination skill'd and in the athletic labours of the field. 'Tis thine strong archer, all things to devour, supreme, all-helping, all-producing pow'r; To thee mankind as their deliv'rer pray, whose arm can chase the savage tribes away: Uweary'd, earth's best blossom, offspring fair, to whom calm peace, and peaceful works are dear. Self-born, with primogenial fires you shine, and various names and strength of heart are thine. Thy mighty head supports the morning light, and bears untam'd, the silent gloomy night; From east to west endu'd with strength divine, twelve glorious labours to absolve is thine; Supremely skill'd, thou reign'st in heav'n's abodes, thyself a God amid'st th' immortal Gods. With arms unshaken, infinite, divine, come, blessed pow'r, and to our rites incline; The mitigations of disease convey, and drive disasterous maladies away. Come, shake the branch with thy almighty arm, dismiss thy darts and noxious fate disarm. - Orphic Hymn It doesn't really matter. It was an old post and had I seen the date I wouldn't have responded. I'm sorry.

If you are born of a god and a mortal..that makes you a "demi-god" does it not? I googled "Greek God of Strength". The name that continuously comes up is Kratos\Cratus. I also googled "Is Hercules a God" the answer I got is no. I'm not pulling this out of my a$$. Try it yourself. Google those things and tell me what you get.

Who told you that? The guys on Yahoo answers? These are quotes from the Greeks and Romans themselves. I think they'd know. The paragraph I got with a quick google search. It's a prayer written by the actual ancient Greeks. I'd think it holds some weight. Dionysus... the Greek God of Wine had a human mother. Asclepius the Greek God of medicine also had a human mother. They were still Gods to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Apotheosis. Not to mention, what's considered a god is different depending on the people and location. To the Greeks and Romans, Gods were forever young and immortal. Does that mean the Norse Gods don't qualify as Gods? And about Kratos. Kratos was a God of Strength too. Just like Plutus was the God of Wealth and Hades was the God of Wealth. Hercules was worshipped far more though.

"[Consider] what took place in Ephesos in connection with that plague. For the Eidos Loimos (genius of the pestilence),--and it took the form of a poor old man,--I both detected, and having detected took it captive: and I did not so much stay the disease as pluck it out. And who the god was to whom I had offered my prayers is shown in the statue which I set up in Ephesos to commemorate the event; and it is a temple of Herakles Apotropaios (Averter of Diseaser), for I chose him to help me, because he is the wise and courageous god, who once purged the plague of a city of Elis by washing away with the river-tide the foul exhalations which the land sent up under the tyranny of Augeas." Philostratus, Life of Apollonius

And now on every side the spreading flames were crackling fiercely, as they leaped from earth upon the careless limbs of Hercules. He scorned their power. The Gods felt fear for earth's defender and their sympathy gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove—he knew their thought—and joyfully he said to them: “Your sudden fear is surely my delight, O heavenly Gods! my heart is lifted up and joy prevails upon me, in the thought that I am called the Father and the King of all this grateful race of Gods. I know my own beloved offspring is secure in your declared protection: your concern may justly evidence his worth, whose deeds great benefits bestowed. Let not vain thoughts alarm you, nor the rising flames of Oeta; for Hercules who conquered everything, shall conquer equally the spreading fires which now you see: and all that part of him, celestial—inherited of me—immortal, cannot feel the power of death. It is not subject to the poison-heat. And therefore, since his earth-life is now lost, him I'll translate, unshackled from all dross, and purified, to our celestial shore. I trust this action seems agreeable to all the Deities surrounding me. If any jealous god of heaven should grieve at the divinity of Hercules, he may begrudge the prize but he will know at least 'twas given him deservedly, and with this thought he must approve the deed.” The Gods confirmed it: and though Juno seemed to be contented and to acquiesce, her deep vexation was not wholly hid, when Jupiter with his concluding words so plainly hinted at her jealous mind. - Ovid, Metamorphoses

On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven.223Thereafter he obtained immortality, and being reconciled to Hera he married her daughter Hebe,224 by whom he had sons, Alexiares and Anicetus. - Apollodorus, Libraries

And all th' immortal acts of Hercules: First, how the mighty babe, when swath'd in bands, The serpents strangled with his infant hands; Then, as in years and matchless force he grew, Th' Oechalian walls, and Trojan, overthrew. Besides, a thousand hazards they relate, Procur'd by Juno's and Eurystheus' hate: "Thy hands, unconquer'd hero, could subdue The cloud-born Centaurs, and the monster crew: Nor thy resistless arm the bull withstood, Nor he, the roaring terror of the wood. The triple porter of the Stygian seat, With lolling tongue, lay fawning at thy feet, And, seiz'd with fear, forgot his mangled meat. Th' infernal waters trembled at thy sight; Thee, god, no face of danger could affright; Not huge Typhoeus, nor th' unnumber'd snake, Increas'd with hissing heads, in Lerna's lake. Hail, Jove's undoubted son! an added grace To heav'n and the great author of thy race! - Virgil, Aeneid

"And mighty Herakles (Heracles) . . . made Hebe the child of great Zeus and gold-shod Hera his shy wife in snowy Olympos. Happy he! For he has finished his great works and lives amongst the undying gods, untroubled and unaging all his days." - Hesiod, Theogony

There are many more sources. They weren't even hard to find, although it took a while to read and highlight the important parts.

#122 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@sumnerus said:

Hercules is stronger then Thor. not by much, but he's used to using his fists more whereas Thor is always hammered up. As far as i'm aware Zues recently stripped Hercules of much of his power, forcing him to rely on ancient anchanted weapons and a couple of milennia of fighting experience.

IIRC Zeus didn't take Hercules' power away. In Chaos War he was even more powerful than before but he exhausted that power, saving the universe. He restored everything Mikaboshi destroyed.


Who told you that? The guys on Yahoo answers? These are quotes from the Greeks and Romans themselves. I think they'd know. The paragraph I got with a quick google search. It's a prayer written by the actual ancient Greeks. I'd think it holds some weight. Dionysus... the Greek God of Wine had a human mother. Asclepius the Greek God of medicine also had a human mother. They were still Gods to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Apotheosis. Not to mention, what's considered a god is different depending on the people and location. To the Greeks and Romans, Gods were forever young and immortal. Does that mean the Norse Gods don't qualify as Gods? And about Kratos. Kratos was a God of Strength too. Just like Plutus was the God of Wealth and Hades was the God of Wealth. Hercules was worshipped far more though.

"[Consider] what took place in Ephesos in connection with that plague. For the Eidos Loimos (genius of the pestilence),--and it took the form of a poor old man,--I both detected, and having detected took it captive: and I did not so much stay the disease as pluck it out. And who the god was to whom I had offered my prayers is shown in the statue which I set up in Ephesos to commemorate the event; and it is a temple of Herakles Apotropaios (Averter of Diseaser), for I chose him to help me, because he is the wise and courageous god, who once purged the plague of a city of Elis by washing away with the river-tide the foul exhalations which the land sent up under the tyranny of Augeas." Philostratus, Life of Appolonius

And now on every side the spreading flames were crackling fiercely, as they leaped from earth upon the careless limbs of Hercules. He scorned their power. The Gods felt fear for earth's defender and their sympathy gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove—he knew their thought—and joyfully he said to them: “Your sudden fear is surely my delight, O heavenly Gods! my heart is lifted up and joy prevails upon me, in the thought that I am called the Father and the King of all this grateful race of Gods. I know my own beloved offspring is secure in your declared protection: your concern may justly evidence his worth, whose deeds great benefits bestowed. Let not vain thoughts alarm you, nor the rising flames of Oeta; for Hercules who conquered everything, shall conquer equally the spreading fires which now you see: and all that part of him, celestial—inherited of me—immortal, cannot feel the power of death. It is not subject to the poison-heat. And therefore, since his earth-life is now lost, him I'll translate, unshackled from all dross, and purified, to our celestial shore. I trust this action seems agreeable to all the Deities surrounding me. If any jealous god of heaven should grieve at the divinity of Hercules, he may begrudge the prize but he will know at least 'twas given him deservedly, and with this thought he must approve the deed.” The Gods confirmed it: and though Juno seemed to be contented and to acquiesce, her deep vexation was not wholly hid, when Jupiter with his concluding words so plainly hinted at her jealous mind. - Ovid Metamorphoses

On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven.223Thereafter he obtained immortality, and being reconciled to Hera he married her daughter Hebe,224 by whom he had sons, Alexiares and Anicetus. - Appolodorus, Libraries

And all th' immortal acts of Hercules: First, how the mighty babe, when swath'd in bands, The serpents strangled with his infant hands; Then, as in years and matchless force he grew, Th' Oechalian walls, and Trojan, overthrew. Besides, a thousand hazards they relate, Procur'd by Juno's and Eurystheus' hate: "Thy hands, unconquer'd hero, could subdue The cloud-born Centaurs, and the monster crew: Nor thy resistless arm the bull withstood, Nor he, the roaring terror of the wood. The triple porter of the Stygian seat, With lolling tongue, lay fawning at thy feet, And, seiz'd with fear, forgot his mangled meat. Th' infernal waters trembled at thy sight; Thee, god, no face of danger could affright; Not huge Typhoeus, nor th' unnumber'd snake, Increas'd with hissing heads, in Lerna's lake. Hail, Jove's undoubted son! an added grace To heav'n and the great author of thy race! - Virgil, Aeneid

"And mighty Herakles (Heracles) . . . made Hebe the child of great Zeus and gold-shod Hera his shy wife in snowy Olympos. Happy he! For he has finished his great works and lives amongst the dying gods, untroubled and unaging all his days." - Hesiod, Theogony

There are many more sources. They weren't even hard to find, although it took a while to read and highlight the important parts.

I'm not disagreeing with what the text says. You asked me where I got the information from, I told you how I got to it. Also everything I just said in my last post isn't wrong. I asked you if being born of a god father and a mortal woman, makes a character a demi-god..the answer is YES! I also stated that Hercules was NOT the Greek god of strength & power..which he's not. Kratos is.

Moderator
#123 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerherc said:

Hercules was worshiped in Rome as the God of Strength.

Is there a difference between Greek & Roman mythology, they seem to have alot of the same characters just by different names, but if you look up "Roman God of strength" you get different results than if you look up "Greek God of strength".

Moderator
#124 Edited by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

@sumnerus said:

Hercules is stronger then Thor. not by much, but he's used to using his fists more whereas Thor is always hammered up. As far as i'm aware Zues recently stripped Hercules of much of his power, forcing him to rely on ancient anchanted weapons and a couple of milennia of fighting experience.

IIRC Zeus didn't take Hercules' power away. In Chaos War he was even more powerful than before but he exhausted that power, saving the universe. He restored everything Mikaboshi destroyed.

@leesensei said:

Who told you that? The guys on Yahoo answers? These are quotes from the Greeks and Romans themselves. I think they'd know. The paragraph I got with a quick google search. It's a prayer written by the actual ancient Greeks. I'd think it holds some weight. Dionysus... the Greek God of Wine had a human mother. Asclepius the Greek God of medicine also had a human mother. They were still Gods to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Apotheosis. Not to mention, what's considered a god is different depending on the people and location. To the Greeks and Romans, Gods were forever young and immortal. Does that mean the Norse Gods don't qualify as Gods? And about Kratos. Kratos was a God of Strength too. Just like Plutus was the God of Wealth and Hades was the God of Wealth. Hercules was worshipped far more though.

"[Consider] what took place in Ephesos in connection with that plague. For the Eidos Loimos (genius of the pestilence),--and it took the form of a poor old man,--I both detected, and having detected took it captive: and I did not so much stay the disease as pluck it out. And who the god was to whom I had offered my prayers is shown in the statue which I set up in Ephesos to commemorate the event; and it is a temple of Herakles Apotropaios (Averter of Diseaser), for I chose him to help me, because he is the wise and courageous god, who once purged the plague of a city of Elis by washing away with the river-tide the foul exhalations which the land sent up under the tyranny of Augeas." Philostratus, Life of Appolonius

And now on every side the spreading flames were crackling fiercely, as they leaped from earth upon the careless limbs of Hercules. He scorned their power. The Gods felt fear for earth's defender and their sympathy gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove—he knew their thought—and joyfully he said to them: “Your sudden fear is surely my delight, O heavenly Gods! my heart is lifted up and joy prevails upon me, in the thought that I am called the Father and the King of all this grateful race of Gods. I know my own beloved offspring is secure in your declared protection: your concern may justly evidence his worth, whose deeds great benefits bestowed. Let not vain thoughts alarm you, nor the rising flames of Oeta; for Hercules who conquered everything, shall conquer equally the spreading fires which now you see: and all that part of him, celestial—inherited of me—immortal, cannot feel the power of death. It is not subject to the poison-heat. And therefore, since his earth-life is now lost, him I'll translate, unshackled from all dross, and purified, to our celestial shore. I trust this action seems agreeable to all the Deities surrounding me. If any jealous god of heaven should grieve at the divinity of Hercules, he may begrudge the prize but he will know at least 'twas given him deservedly, and with this thought he must approve the deed.” The Gods confirmed it: and though Juno seemed to be contented and to acquiesce, her deep vexation was not wholly hid, when Jupiter with his concluding words so plainly hinted at her jealous mind. - Ovid Metamorphoses

On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven.223Thereafter he obtained immortality, and being reconciled to Hera he married her daughter Hebe,224 by whom he had sons, Alexiares and Anicetus. - Appolodorus, Libraries

And all th' immortal acts of Hercules: First, how the mighty babe, when swath'd in bands, The serpents strangled with his infant hands; Then, as in years and matchless force he grew, Th' Oechalian walls, and Trojan, overthrew. Besides, a thousand hazards they relate, Procur'd by Juno's and Eurystheus' hate: "Thy hands, unconquer'd hero, could subdue The cloud-born Centaurs, and the monster crew: Nor thy resistless arm the bull withstood, Nor he, the roaring terror of the wood. The triple porter of the Stygian seat, With lolling tongue, lay fawning at thy feet, And, seiz'd with fear, forgot his mangled meat. Th' infernal waters trembled at thy sight; Thee, god, no face of danger could affright; Not huge Typhoeus, nor th' unnumber'd snake, Increas'd with hissing heads, in Lerna's lake. Hail, Jove's undoubted son! an added grace To heav'n and the great author of thy race! - Virgil, Aeneid

"And mighty Herakles (Heracles) . . . made Hebe the child of great Zeus and gold-shod Hera his shy wife in snowy Olympos. Happy he! For he has finished his great works and lives amongst the dying gods, untroubled and unaging all his days." - Hesiod, Theogony

There are many more sources. They weren't even hard to find, although it took a while to read and highlight the important parts.

I'm not disagreeing with what the text says. You asked me where I got the information from, I told you how I got to it. Also everything I just said in my last post isn't wrong. I asked you if being born of a god father and a mortal woman, makes a character a demi-god..the answer is YES! I also stated that Hercules was NOT the Greek god of strength & power..which he's not. Kratos is.

Except you are disagreeing with what the texts say. You said that he's not a God. They directly call him a God. Sorry Vance, but you're objectively wrong here. Just concede. I repeat.

Thee, God, no face of danger could affright. - Virgil

and it is a temple of Herakles Apotropaios (Averter of Diseaser), for I chose him to help me, because he is the wise and courageous god. - Philostratus

He is directly called a God there. It's not debatable. You are wrong. He was born a demigod in most accounts, but becomes a full God at the end of his mortal life. Dionysus was also the child a mortal and a God. By this logic the Norse Gods don't qualify as Gods. Is that what you're saying? On the Kratos part you are still wrong. Kratos is the God of Strength. Hercules is the God of Strength. Plutus is the God of Wealth. Hades is the God of Wealth. Eros is the God of Love. Aphrodite is the Goddess of Love. It's not a case where there can be only one. The main difference being that Hercules is far more important than Kratos, Hades is far more important than Plutus and Aphrodite is far more important than Eros.

Herodotus also mentions that Heracles was included as one of the Twelve by some.[13] At Kos, Heracles and Dionysus are added to the Twelve, and Ares and Hephaestus are not.[14] For Pindar,[15] the Bibliotheca, and Herodorus, Heracles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established their cult.[4]Lucian (2nd century AD) includes Heracles and Asclepius as members of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them.

And there's this. According to some (but not most) he was one of the 12 Olympian Gods. You're wrong. Concession accepted.

#125 Edited by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei said:

Except you are disagreeing with what the texts say. You said that he's not a God. They directly call him a God. Sorry Vance, but you're objectively wrong here. Just concede. I repeat.

And there's this. According to some (but not most) he was one of the 12 Olympian Gods. You're wrong. Concession accepted.

Did you even read what I just said? i just said that i'm not disagreeing with the text. So if the text says he's a god, then OBVIOUSLY I just conceded.

Moderator
#126 Edited by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

@leesensei said:

Except you are disagreeing with what the texts say. You said that he's not a God. They directly call him a God. Sorry Vance, but you're objectively wrong here. Just concede. I repeat.

And there's this. According to some (but not most) he was one of the 12 Olympian Gods. You're wrong. Concession accepted.

Did you even read what I just said? i just said that i'm not disagreeing with the text. So if the text says he's a god, then OBVIOUSLY I just conceded.

I read what you typed, Vance. You said that you're not disagreeing with the texts. Then you went on to say this.

Also everything I just said in my last post isn't wrong. I asked you if being born of a god father and a mortal woman, makes a character a demi-god..the answer is YES! I also stated that Hercules was NOT the Greek god of strength & power..which he's not. Kratos is.

Which is wrong. The child of a mortal and a God is usually a demigod, but there are a few exceptions. Hercules, Dionysus and Asclepius are those acceptions. And even if you went with the more common version where he isn't born a God he always becomes one at the end of his life on Earth. He's also the Greco-Roman God of Strength (and athletics).

And the Roman myths are basically the same as the Greek ones. They just gave the characters different names.

#127 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

I read what you typed, Vance. You said that you're not disagreeing with the texts. Then you went on to say this.

Also everything I just said in my last post isn't wrong. I asked you if being born of a god father and a mortal woman, makes a character a demi-god..the answer is YES! I also stated that Hercules was NOT the Greek god of strength & power..which he's not. Kratos is.

Which is wrong. The child a mortal and a God is usually a demigod, but there are a few exceptions. Hercules, Dionysus and Asclepius are those acceptions. And even if you went with the more common version where he isn't born a God he always becomes one at the end of his life on Earth. He's also the Greco-Roman God of Strength (and athletics).

And the Roman myths are basically the same as the Greek ones. They just gave the characters different names.

What i'm saying here and what i just said aren't contradictory. I'm not disagreeing that Hercules is a god. What you're pointing out here is aside from that.

What I just gave you was the definition of "demi-god" in a question format and you're telling me i'm wrong. A demi-god is a being born of a god & a mortal. That's what I asked. According to what i'm reading, Dionysus doesn't disprove this. He was reborn out of the flesh of Zeus himself, which made him a god. Had he been naturally of his mortal mother, he would be a demi-god like Hercules WAS..who WAS birthed by his mortal mother and Asclepius also WAS demi-god who BECAME a god. So where am I wrong? These apparently aren't exceptions to the definition of a demi-god.

There appears to be different stories about whether Hercules was born a god or he is a demi-god who became a god...as you just said the most common version suggests the latter. Whether he is the god of strength or not...no text you posted has said that.



Moderator
#128 Edited by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: This is getting tiring, Vance so let's go back to the source.

"Hercules isn't the god of anything.Kratos is the Greek God of Strength and Power.Hercules isn't even a real god."

This is what you said and what I originally responded too. Do you admit that you were wrong here?

#129 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro: This is getting tiring, Vance so let's go back to the source.

"Hercules isn't the god of anything.Kratos is the Greek God of Strength and Power.Hercules isn't even a real god."

This is what you said and what I originally responded too. Do you admit that you were wrong here?

Pretty sure I just that...TWICE.


I'm not disagreeing that Hercules is a god. What you're pointing out here is aside from that.

Did you even read what I just said? i just said that i'm not disagreeing with the text. So if the text says he's a god, then OBVIOUSLY I just conceded.

Moderator
#130 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: That's not all you said, but the original points have been adressed so let's leave it at that.

#131 Edited by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro: That's not all you said, but the original points have been adressed so let's leave it at that.

-_-

Moderator
#132 Edited by westy206 (576 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze:

You got it spot on. When talking about Herc many people bring up things when he was mortal. That's like bringing up Bruce Banner when talking about Hulk. The real Problem is a lot of people don't know much about Hercules and have only seen an odd showing here or there.

#133 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei said:

@vance_astro: That's not all you said, but the original points have been adressed so let's leave it at that.

-_-

I'm not sure what you mean by this...

#134 Edited by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#135 Posted by PowerHerc (81623 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerherc said:

Hercules was worshiped in Rome as the God of Strength.

Is there a difference between Greek & Roman mythology, they seem to have alot of the same characters just by different names, but if you look up "Roman God of strength" you get different results than if you look up "Greek God of strength".

There are many differences but the vast majority are relatively minor.

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