Could Hercules ever mature enough to take Zeus's place?

#1 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

Currently, Hercules is near the bottom of possible candidates to replace Zeus. Despite this. Zeus commented in his trial that Hercules might one day replace him. The second Bob Layton series stated Hercules is destined to father a new race of gods. Athena planned for Hercules to rule as a new all-father at the end of chaos war. Still, the current Hercules comes across as far from ready to replace Zeus. He lacks the wisdom, patience, and sheer ability to sit still. I imagine Athena had planned to make him into a puppet ruler. He also lacks the creative mind to fully utilize skyfather-level power.

Do you think Hercules could ever mature to the level needed to succeeded Zeus or properly utilize such power?

#2 Posted by Kallarkz (3389 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Hercules lacks the creative mind to use that type of power. Although Hercules has a very kick back attitude I have not taken him for some hyper active all brawn no brain guy. He has demonstrated to be a patient and wise person. One shouldn't have to always act like Batman or Captain America in order to be considered a "wise person".

I wouldn't want to see him take up that position for some time if ever. They just need to power him back up, assure his top tier strength status and return him to kicking @ and taking names.

#3 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

Currently, Hercules is near the bottom of possible candidates to replace Zeus. Despite this. Zeus commented in his trial that Hercules might one day replace him. The second Bob Layton series stated Hercules is destined to father a new race of gods. Athena planned for Hercules to rule as a new all-father at the end of chaos war. Still, the current Hercules comes across as far from ready to replace Zeus. He lacks the wisdom, patience, and sheer ability to sit still. I imagine Athena had planned to make him into a puppet ruler. He also lacks the creative mind to fully utilize skyfather-level power.

Do you think Hercules could ever mature to the level needed to succeeded Zeus or properly utilize such power?

Yes to both. It's just not his time yet and for that I'm glad.

A hero with Kingly responsibilities can be boring so I believe Hercules is better as the irreverent brawler for now.

#4 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kallarkz said:

I don't think Hercules lacks the creative mind to use that type of power. Although Hercules has a very kick back attitude I have not taken him for some hyper active all brawn no brain guy. He has demonstrated to be a patient and wise person. One shouldn't have to always act like Batman or Captain America in order to be considered a "wise person".

I wouldn't want to see him take up that position for some time if ever. They just need to power him back up, assure his top tier strength status and return him to kicking @ and taking names

The stories themselves would tend to disagree with you. Chaos War gave Herc unlimited knowledge and power, but he only really used it when forced to. About the only thing he ever did was punch even when it was painfully obvious to everyone that that would not work. He had to be led by the hand to victory. His leadership was a disaster. The "Thorcules" story supports that as well. He started the very thing he set out to prevent and had to be rescued by Thor. Fortunately , Alyesse was not especially evil and found Herc charming. "Avengers Under Siege" is another story where Herc being a "hyperactive all brawn no brain guy" got him in trouble. Athena confirmed Hercules has a long history of such debacles and only survived thanks to being stronger then everything else. There are other stories that would support this idea. tHe has his moments, but is far from what I would consider "wise" person let alone even close to being a skyfather. In wisdom, patience, ability to sit still, weight different possibility, judge complex situation Zeus himself is far better than him.

@PowerHerc said:

Yes to both. It's just not his time yet and for that I'm glad.

A hero with Kingly responsibilities can be boring so I believe Hercules is better as the irreverent brawler for now.

A hero with kingly responsibilities can be done, it is just very difficult. We have seen it done somewhat with T'challa and Namor, but they tend to leave the actual ruling part to others. King Thor storylines under Jurgens were pretty good, but again focused on things other than Thor's day-to-day activities.

#5 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

A hero with kingly responsibilities can be done, it is just very difficult. We have seen it done somewhat with T'challa and Namor, but they tend to leave the actual ruling part to others. King Thor storylines under Jurgens were pretty good, but again focused on things other than Thor's day-to-day activities.

Yes it can and has been done before, but as you said, normally with the actual ruling left to others and if he isn't going to rule; then what's the point of being king? None really, it would just make him look feckless and irresponsible for not meeting the requirements of being a king. Herc, and most other hero/adventurer types, are better off without the shackles of governing responsibility weighing them down, both for the writers and for the readers.

#6 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc:

True, even the old Kull and Conan stories as king were less about ruling and more about plots against the throne or wars. Both Kull and Conan sort of hated being king because they found it boring. Thor had the same problems as king which is one reason he was such a failure. One What If had Thor expecting Odin to rule while Thor went off adventuring despite Odin having retired and in the recent stories one reason Thor passed on the responsibilities to Balder and brought back Odin was to have someone else rule.

#7 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: Yes, exactly.

Can you see Hercules ruling? Even if he was ready for the responsibilities and rose to the occasion, he'd be bored out of his mind.

#8 Posted by ALdragon17 (126 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem is that a King has to be a jack of all traits. Meaning, you have to wear different hats to do it. You have to be a warrior a minute and another you have to be diplomatic in another. It takes a well balance individual to run a kingdom. Mostly, Conan or Hercules could only be a Major rank class, meaning their stuck in their ways of doing things, they are not flexible at times. It's like you "give and give, then you finally take" and have a big picture of things.

#9 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc:

You are right. I just sort of wander if Zeus ever does expect Hercules to rule Olympus one day or father a new race of gods. Barring extreme changes he is not cut out for it.

@ALdragon17:

I think the king has to be more a good judge especially of character than all of those. Generally, he can delegate most of those tasks to others. Being too important for the front lines he can select generals and warriors. He can select good diplomats and advisors. The key part is control of one's temper, step back so others handle things and sound judgement. Things which Hercules and Thor too lack though in different degrees.

#10 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc:

You are right. I just sort of wander if Zeus ever does expect Hercules to rule Olympus one day or father a new race of gods. Barring extreme changes he is not cut out for it.

Far be it from me to know what Zeus' intentions actually are, but I'd guess that though he would like to see Hercules shed some of his more human qualities and become more aloof like the other Olympians, he doesn't actually have any real intentions of passing the mantle of Olympian monarch to Hercules or anyone else. Zeus will always rule and remain supreme.

#11 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

Far be it from me to know what Zeus' intentions actually are, but I'd guess that though he would like to see Hercules shed some of his more human qualities and become more aloof like the other Olympians, he doesn't actually have any real intentions of passing the mantle of Olympian monarch to Hercules or anyone else. Zeus will always rule and remain supreme.

That right there is something that sort of sets Zeus apart from the other skyfathers. Many of them rose to power because their predecessor retired and they seem to either have an intention to retire one day or at least prepare for a time when they might be incapacitated. This prevents many of the power struggles that would come when they are incapaicated. Whether due to arrogance or fear of the generational blood cycle Zeus has never prepared a true heir. This caused the power struggles that came after his death.

But you are right in Zeus wishes Hercules was more like the other Olympians. The irony I find is even by the standards of most gods (at least going largely by myths and their limited comic portrayals) the typical Olympian behavior would be looked down upon by other gods. Many of the gods have a more aloof, superior attitude behavior toward mortals that Hercules lacks. At the same time many of them have a greater respect for authority, tradition, and less petty behavior then what the Olympians typically display.

#12 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

Far be it from me to know what Zeus' intentions actually are, but I'd guess that though he would like to see Hercules shed some of his more human qualities and become more aloof like the other Olympians, he doesn't actually have any real intentions of passing the mantle of Olympian monarch to Hercules or anyone else. Zeus will always rule and remain supreme.

That right there is something that sort of sets Zeus apart from the other skyfathers. Many of them rose to power because their predecessor retired and they seem to either have an intention to retire one day or at least prepare for a time when they might be incapacitated. This prevents many of the power struggles that would come when they are incapaicated. Whether due to arrogance or fear of the generational blood cycle Zeus has never prepared a true heir. This caused the power struggles that came after his death.

But you are right in Zeus wishes Hercules was more like the other Olympians. The irony I find is even by the standards of most gods (at least going largely by myths and their limited comic portrayals) the typical Olympian behavior would be looked down upon by other gods. Many of the gods have a more aloof, superior attitude behavior toward mortals that Hercules lacks. At the same time many of them have a greater respect for authority, tradition, and less petty behavior then what the Olympians typically display.

Hercules has seemed/does seem to feel superior to many mortals, imo, just not nearly as much as the other Olympians.

Even so, Hercules relates to mortals much better than they do because, unlike they, he started out as a mortal demigod and had to actually earn his godhood.

#13 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

Hercules has seemed/does seem to feel superior to many mortals, imo, just not nearly as much as the other Olympians.

Even so, Hercules relates to mortals much better than they do because, unlike they, he started out as a mortal demigod and had to actually earn his godhood.

I think that may be due to the culture he was raised in. Unlike modern culture where humility is a virtue it was not nearly as so in ancient Greek culture. There a hero wanted their name known far and wide which is why Achillis went to Troy and Odysseus bragged to the cyclops. The line one was not to cross was comparing oneself to the gods. Hercules knows he is stronger than pretty much anyone and flaunts it. He wants his name spread as far as possible. As a god the one line he was not allowed to cross as a mortal he now could. His own mortality however gives him a perspective of loss not shared by the other Olympians.

#14 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

Hercules has seemed/does seem to feel superior to many mortals, imo, just not nearly as much as the other Olympians.

Even so, Hercules relates to mortals much better than they do because, unlike they, he started out as a mortal demigod and had to actually earn his godhood.

I think that may be due to the culture he was raised in. Unlike modern culture where humility is a virtue it was not nearly as so in ancient Greek culture. There a hero wanted their name known far and wide which is why Achillis went to Troy and Odysseus bragged to the cyclops. The line one was not to cross was comparing oneself to the gods. Hercules knows he is stronger than pretty much anyone and flaunts it. He wants his name spread as far as possible. As a god the one line he was not allowed to cross as a mortal he now could. His own mortality however gives him a perspective of loss not shared by the other Olympians.

I think this is totally true. I think he's felt this way his entire life, even when he was a fully immortal Olympian God. I don't think he's ever forgotten where he came from and realizes how precious life is whether he's mortal or immortal.

#15 Posted by StarKiller809 (1727 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that would be a really interesting concept. I think if that were to happen there would need to be someone to take his spot because isn't he suppose to be the Champion of the Gods or something? I think that would be really cool.

#16 Posted by StarKiller809 (1727 posts) - - Show Bio
@protect_yourself: To be honest with you, I don't know a whole lot of Hercules. I really was just going off of what I know. I guess they could do what the Olympians did to the Titans (The fathers of Zeus and all the other Olympian gods) and just beat them up and take their place. It worked for Zeus why not have Hercules take down Zeus the same way Zeus took down his father.
#17 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@protect_yourself:

Zeus's weakness is he is all about power. In many ways he lacks wisdom and is more immature than Hercules. In the comics, he tends to be short-tempered and believes the first thing he is told or sees no matter the source how implausible it is. He may have his suspicions, but only bothers to investigate further if something prompts him to do so or convinces him his own butt would be on the line.

Kronos overthrew Uranus by ambushing him in his sleep. Zeus overthrew Kronos with a combination of tricky and the aid of his brothers. Zeus himself was nearly overthrown one time when the other gods bound him while he slept. Zeus's powers and highest strength and durability showings only tend to work when Zeus is consciously using them. It is true that if Ares or Hercules went charging up to Zeus to kill him Zeus could kill them with ease. However, there are enough magical rules and if someone were clever enough they could overthrow him.

#18 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@protect_yourself:

Zeus's weakness is he is all about power. In many ways he lacks wisdom and is more immature than Hercules. In the comics, he tends to be short-tempered and believes the first thing he is told or sees no matter the source how implausible it is. He may have his suspicions, but only bothers to investigate further if something prompts him to do so or convinces him his own butt would be on the line.

Kronos overthrew Uranus by ambushing him in his sleep. Zeus overthrew Kronos with a combination of tricky and the aid of his brothers. Zeus himself was nearly overthrown one time when the other gods bound him while he slept. Zeus's powers and highest strength and durability showings only tend to work when Zeus is consciously using them. It is true that if Ares or Hercules went charging up to Zeus to kill him Zeus could kill them with ease. However, there are enough magical rules and if someone were clever enough they could overthrow him.

I agree.

I don't think Hercules would ever ambush Zeus for the purpose of over-throwing him/his rule, however. I could only see Hercules attempting this in the same, or similar, circumstances as the one in the second Hercules mini-series from the 80's where Zeus appears to have gone murderously mad and Hercules finally feels he has no choice but to stop Zeus (Though in that story Hercules relented just as he had Zeus dead to rights).

#19 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

I agree.

I don't think Hercules would ever ambush Zeus for the purpose of over-throwing him/his rule, however. I could only see Hercules attempting this in the same, or similar, circumstances as the one in the second Hercules mini-series from the 80's where Zeus appears to have gone murderously mad and Hercules finally feels he has no choice but to stop Zeus (Though in that story Hercules relented just as he had Zeus dead to rights).

One thing I've never understood about that story is why Hercules would be considered wrong to kill Zeus. Yes, Zeus is his father and patricide is generally wrong. Yet a mad Zeus is far too powerful to contain on ones own or allow to roam free. Its like Thor and the Sentry. Sometimes with a threat that powerful you have to destroy them. Zeus did it to his own father Kronos. I mean after he beat the crap out of Zeus what was he going to do? He had no way to contain him and after Zeus recovered his madness would just lead him to try and kill Hercules again as far as Herc knew. Here was a mad man that had killed the rest of the Olympians as far as Herc knew. The only thing going for Hercules is Zeus did not destroy him outright as Herc said Zeus could. At the same time the lack of other powers could be attributed to the madness Zeus was faking.

#20 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@protect_yourself said:

No zeus is way to over powered. hercules would be toast.

In a direct confrontation yes. Zeus could amp his physical might far beyond Hercules. Even if Herc were with the right weapon able to hurt Zeus a few lighting bolts would have Herc down for the count. His only hope would be strategy. Unfortunately for Herc, thanks to so drastically outperforming nearly everything he fights that is usually the third or fourth thing he considers.

#21 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

I agree.

I don't think Hercules would ever ambush Zeus for the purpose of over-throwing him/his rule, however. I could only see Hercules attempting this in the same, or similar, circumstances as the one in the second Hercules mini-series from the 80's where Zeus appears to have gone murderously mad and Hercules finally feels he has no choice but to stop Zeus (Though in that story Hercules relented just as he had Zeus dead to rights).

One thing I've never understood about that story is why Hercules would be considered wrong to kill Zeus. Yes, Zeus is his father and patricide is generally wrong. Yet a mad Zeus is far too powerful to contain on ones own or allow to roam free. Its like Thor and the Sentry. Sometimes with a threat that powerful you have to destroy them. Zeus did it to his own father Kronos. I mean after he beat the crap out of Zeus what was he going to do? He had no way to contain him and after Zeus recovered his madness would just lead him to try and kill Hercules again as far as Herc knew. Here was a mad man that had killed the rest of the Olympians as far as Herc knew. The only thing going for Hercules is Zeus did not destroy him outright as Herc said Zeus could. At the same time the lack of other powers could be attributed to the madness Zeus was faking.

I don't think Hercules would've been considered wrong for killing Zeus at that time, he just wouldn't have been considered worthy of fathering the next generation of gods by Zeus ( which is ironic considering the history/pattern of patricide in Olympian lore. By not killing Zeus, Hercules showed that there was a line he wouldn't cross and was willing to die for his beliefs. This, imo, showed a new depth of character in Hercules; character that would make him fit to rule.

#22 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

I don't think Hercules would've been considered wrong for killing Zeus at that time, he just wouldn't have been considered worthy of fathering the next generation of gods by Zeus ( which is ironic considering the history/pattern of patricide in Olympian lore. By not killing Zeus, Hercules showed that there was a line he wouldn't cross and was willing to die for his beliefs. This, imo, showed a new depth of character in Hercules; character that would make him fit to rule.

When you put it like that it makes me wonder of Zeus is in some tiny corner of what he calls a conscience is ashamed of how he came to power. Yes, destroying Kronos may have been necessary, but usurping power from the previous king especially your own father only to place yourself on the throne just comes out as wrong somehow. It is a shadow over Zeus's entire reign and part of a cycle that has haunted the family for generations.

Hercules does not follow the pattern of the others. Ouranos, Cronus and Zeus were each the most powerful and youngest of their generation.* Each tended to be terrible fathers who were willing to go to extreme lengths to hold onto their power along with being fairly poor role models. They may have morals, but are willing to cast them aside for power. Like each of them Hercules is the youngest and arguably most powerful of Zeus's godly children. Yet he refuses to pursue power the same way they do and from what little we can tell he is in some respects a better father than them. By refusing to kill Zeus despite all his provocations especially a mad Zeus in Zeus's mind that makes Hercules morally superior to his forefathers.** So you are right in setting a line he is unwilling to cross and a willingness to die for his beliefs are characteristics one could to a certain extent fit to rule.

*Cronus and Zeus were both initially the youngest of their generation. Ouranos is harder to place, but unlike several of the protogenoi he did have parents him being the youngest yet king of the world would fit with the cyclical nature of Greek mythology.

**One may question Zeus's method of testing Hercules. Aside from the irony you mention one could deem it a necessity. At the same time, Zeus's judgement and wisdom in both Marvel Comics and the real world is seriously questionable at times.

#23 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

I don't think Hercules would've been considered wrong for killing Zeus at that time, he just wouldn't have been considered worthy of fathering the next generation of gods by Zeus ( which is ironic considering the history/pattern of patricide in Olympian lore. By not killing Zeus, Hercules showed that there was a line he wouldn't cross and was willing to die for his beliefs. This, imo, showed a new depth of character in Hercules; character that would make him fit to rule.

When you put it like that it makes me wonder of Zeus is in some tiny corner of what he calls a conscience is ashamed of how he came to power. Yes, destroying Kronos may have been necessary, but usurping power from the previous king especially your own father only to place yourself on the throne just comes out as wrong somehow. It is a shadow over Zeus's entire reign and part of a cycle that has haunted the family for generations.

Hercules does not follow the pattern of the others. Ouranos, Cronus and Zeus were each the most powerful and youngest of their generation.* Each tended to be terrible fathers who were willing to go to extreme lengths to hold onto their power along with being fairly poor role models. They may have morals, but are willing to cast them aside for power. Like each of them Hercules is the youngest and arguably most powerful of Zeus's godly children. Yet he refuses to pursue power the same way they do and from what little we can tell he is in some respects a better father than them. By refusing to kill Zeus despite all his provocations especially a mad Zeus in Zeus's mind that makes Hercules morally superior to his forefathers.** So you are right in setting a line he is unwilling to cross and a willingness to die for his beliefs are characteristics one could to a certain extent fit to rule.

*Cronus and Zeus were both initially the youngest of their generation. Ouranos is harder to place, but unlike several of the protogenoi he did have parents him being the youngest yet king of the world would fit with the cyclical nature of Greek mythology.

**One may question Zeus's method of testing Hercules. Aside from the irony you mention one could deem it a necessity. At the same time, Zeus's judgement and wisdom in both Marvel Comics and the real world is seriously questionable at times.

Well put.

I'm impressed that you're aware of the fact that Cronus, Zeus and Hercules are each the youngest child of their father. Not very many people are aware of that (or even care).

I agree, based on this, that it could logically be argued that Hercules would be next in line to become ruler/monarch/sky-father of the Greek/Olympian pantheon.

Even stating this, I don't think Hercules feels the need or the desire to overthrow and replace his father as his fore-fathers did. This could be due to the fact that Cronus was horribly mistreated by his father and Zeus was treated horribly by Cronus, leading both to overthrow and replace their fathers as a matter of survival.

Hercules, however, wasn't imprisoned, eaten or otherwise abused by Zeus. In fact he was given awesome godly strength upon birth, led an adventure filled mortal life and was rewarded with full godhood/immortality by Zeus at the end of his mortal life. Zeus may indeed be an impulsive, self-centered hot-head, but by allowing Hercules to live, thrive and to even become a god, he's a much better parent to Hercules in comparison to his father and grandfather. Also, Hercules was fated to save the gods from the giants. Unlike the others, he wasn't fated to overthrow his father and then take his place.

Perhaps it's because of this that Zeus didn't/doesn't feel threatened by Hercules or any of his other sons.

#24 Edited by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

Well put.

I'm impressed that you're aware of the fact that Cronus, Zeus and Hercules are each the youngest child of their father. Not very many people are aware of that (or even care).

I agree, based on this, that it could logically be argued that Hercules would be next in line to become ruler/monarch/sky-father of the Greek/Olympian pantheon.

Even stating this, I don't think Hercules feels the need or the desire to overthrow and replace his father as his fore-fathers did. This could be due to the fact that Cronus was horribly mistreated by his father and Zeus was treated horribly by Cronus, leading both to overthrow and replace their fathers as a matter of survival.

Hercules, however, wasn't imprisoned, eaten or otherwise abused by Zeus. In fact he was given awesome godly strength upon birth, led an adventure filled mortal life and was rewarded with full godhood/immortality by Zeus at the end of his mortal life. Zeus may indeed be an impulsive, self-centered hot-head, but by allowing Hercules to live, thrive and to even become a god, he's a much better parent to Hercules in comparison to his father and grandfather. Also, Hercules was fated to save the gods from the giants. Unlike the others, he wasn't fated to overthrow his father and then take his place.

Perhaps it's because of this that Zeus didn't/doesn't feel threatened by Hercules or any of his other sons.

Thank you, Cronus and Zeus are the easiest.* Hercules is harder because there is little agreement on the birth order of Zeus's children. Based on my understanding though of the rough order of the stories most of Zeus's godly children were born before Hercules. Dionysus is the youngest, but I think he was only one or two human generations before Hercules was born. Zeus had other mortal children after Herc, but Herc was the last godly child.

Funny thing about Herc's right to kingship is even though he is next in line by Olympian tradition it would require him overthrowing the previous king. Most kingships pass to eldest legitimate son (ironically I think that would be Ares) or when the current king retires or dies in battle.

I agree that compared to Ouranus and Cronus Zeus is a better father. Each of them imprisoned their children shortly after birth due to fear. Zeus just tends to abandon and ignore his children unless they somehow attract his interest through deeds, a threat to him, or seek him out. I found the reflection by Herc's mortal shade interesting. Amphitryon was the one who raised Hercules teaching him everything and their during many of Herc's most important early moments which is why Herc regards him as his true father. It is true that thanks to Zeus Hercules had godly strength and an adventure filled life, but as his mortal shade pointed out Zeus also stood by and did little or nothing as Hera tormented Hercules throughout his life. It may have been necessary to prepare him for the giants, but by all accounts Zeus ignored him until he needed him. And as you stated Herc was fated to save Olympus from the giants so unlike many others Zeus needed him. Hercules fully earned his godhood arguable more than any other god on Olympus including Zeus. As a god Zeus tends to yell and banish Hercules a lot often on impulse. Wasn't Hercules first banished to Earth in the Avengers by Zeus without even bothering to hear Herc's explanation? As for fated to overthrow Zeus, in that regard Zeus is little to no better than his own forefathers. He repeated Cronus's crime of cannibalism on Metis and in some stories one reason he had Promethus tortured was to divulge to him another kid who might overthrow him. Turned out to be Thetis whom Zeus married off to a mortal.

I do agree with you that Zeus feels less threatened by his children, but for different reasons. Ouranus was not fated, but was paranoid because several of his children were so powerful and monsterous. Cronus gained his power by usurption and knew very well it could happen to him. Sort of like the criminal that is constantly afraid he is going to be caught. That's why Cronus put the more powerful and monsterous siblings in Tartarus. Ouranus's own prophecy about one of his chidlren couldn't have helped things either. He knew one of his children was destined to overthrow him, but not which one so he ate them all.

Now look at Zeus. He was born more powerful than even the hundred-handed ones and Elder Cyclopses. None of his children save for Hercules or Athena are close enough to him in power to really threaten him. The main difference though is Zeus was warned which specfic children were fated to be a threat to him. This allowed him to selectively pick them off instead of going after all of them.

Sometimes I wonder what type of king Cronus actually was. I know in popular culture it is common to depict him as pure evil, but if you think about it it may have been different. His rule was supposed to be a golden age for men without civilization granted but also without a need for it. Most of the other Titans were loyal enough to him to fight beside him. The few that changed sides perhaps just saw the way the wind was blowing and wanted to be on the winning side. With Zeus mankind did get civilization and advancement, but were also cursed witha need for it by Zeus's angry whims. Were Cronus and Zeus really so different? Or would Cronus as king be similar to Zeus, at least before he spent a few thousand years locked in Tartarus? Isn't there a much less known story about Cronus overthrowing an evil Titan named Ophionto and ruling as a just king?

*I think Zeus is sometimes even in ancient sagas listed as the oldest, but that is due to the vomiting of Kronos considered a sort of "second birth" for the siblings.

#25 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: It's interesting to ask what kind of ruler Cronus was considering it was a golden age for mankind during his reign. I think that would depend upon perspective. To the gods, his reign was probably not sconsidered to be very good. To mankind, it was probably thought to be very good, indeed.

I think you're onto something when you use the term 'paranoid' to describe Ouranus/Uranus and I think it also applies, albiet justifiably, to Cronus as well.

You're right about Zeus standing by while all manner of horror was brought upon Hercules by Hera, but I tend to think he allowed this to strengthen Herc's character and resolve.

#26 Posted by seekquaze (724 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: The Titan Gods I imagine loved the golden age because they were obeyed unquestionably. The Olympians of course would hate it because of the way Kronos treated them. I sort of wonder what explanation the Greeks would have for Zeus's inability to create another golden age. Each age of his rule was worse than the last. Was it a failing on Zeus's part or did the Greeks see it as a trade off that for mankind to advance you cannot have a golden age?

As for Zeus, I think one could easily view it both ways. Zeus is portrayed as a major jerk often enough to make it plausible he would stand by and do nothing as Hera tormented Hercules just because he didn't care. He has done it plenty of times before with his other lovers. On the other hand, when Zeus is portrayed as the wise god he is supposed to be is is plausible he would have to stand by so Herc's character and resolve would develop. Given Zeus's general attitude in the MU I would say it is a combination of both.

#27 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: I agree; it's a combination of both.

#28 Posted by thestarguy (373 posts) - - Show Bio

@seekquaze: @PowerHerc said:

@seekquaze said:

@PowerHerc said:

Hercules has seemed/does seem to feel superior to many mortals, imo, just not nearly as much as the other Olympians.

Even so, Hercules relates to mortals much better than they do because, unlike they, he started out as a mortal demigod and had to actually earn his godhood.

I think that may be due to the culture he was raised in. Unlike modern culture where humility is a virtue it was not nearly as so in ancient Greek culture. There a hero wanted their name known far and wide which is why Achillis went to Troy and Odysseus bragged to the cyclops. The line one was not to cross was comparing oneself to the gods. Hercules knows he is stronger than pretty much anyone and flaunts it. He wants his name spread as far as possible. As a god the one line he was not allowed to cross as a mortal he now could. His own mortality however gives him a perspective of loss not shared by the other Olympians.

I think this is totally true. I think he's felt this way his entire life, even when he was a fully immortal Olympian God. I don't think he's ever forgotten where he came from and realizes how precious life is whether he's mortal or immortal.

This is a great post and very accurate!

#29 Posted by PowerHerc (86127 posts) - - Show Bio

@thestarguy: Thanks, I appreciate that.

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