Since when is X-23 his best friend?

#1 Edited by Detektor (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Quote from X-23 #2 just before he gets emasculated for the second time in as many months. 

Anyone else find this fishy? I've never seen them as very close besides the mutual sexual attraction. Mercury seems by far his best friend since Tag got blown up.

#2 Posted by Metatron_Da_Don (1037 posts) - - Show Bio

? I thought they were a couple, i admit I am new to the chars tho

#3 Posted by xerox_kitty (15762 posts) - - Show Bio

Since Marjorie Liu has taken over the character & seems focussed on un-doing what Kyle & Yost have pain-stakingly established over many years.

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#4 Posted by Gawdzilla (376 posts) - - Show Bio
@xerox-kitty said:
" Since Marjorie Liu has taken over the character & seems focussed on un-doing what Kyle & Yost have pain-stakingly established over many years. "
I wouldn't say that... at least not yet. She said she would see Hellion again. I personally believe Liu has great respect for Laura's established history. Plus if you go over the various interviews over the summer on X-23; Liu has mentioned Hellion several times. Even during a NYCC interview with CBR. We'll see how things go next month.
#5 Posted by Alaric (115 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I'm not seeing it like that either. I wasn't hoping for an "OMG theyre BF/GF now!!!" moment but this was a step above what I was expecting. The fact that their relationship is being acknowledged is enough for me, though usually this involves Hellion being mutilated in one form or another....

#6 Posted by danhimself (22442 posts) - - Show Bio
@xerox-kitty said:
" Since Marjorie Liu has taken over the character & seems focussed on un-doing what Kyle & Yost have pain-stakingly established over many years. "
it's been two issues and you're already saying that...give the woman a chance before you start bashing her
#7 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's reasonable. Laura's always been his friend, and they've shared attraction; and I think the friendship has grown based on the fact that she doesn't treat him differently because of his hands. He's starting to notice things like that, now that he gets differential treatment from his peers and other friends. Remember the panel with the Cuckoo trying to feed him pizza? Yeah, Laura doesn't do stuff like that. She treats him just as before, which is something he wants. Trust me, it's not fun to be treated differently because of a disability. 
 
Also, he never said Laura is his only friend. Just said that she is his best friend, and given the reasoning above, it makes sense to me.

#8 Posted by xerox_kitty (15762 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:
" @xerox-kitty said:
" Since Marjorie Liu has taken over the character & seems focussed on un-doing what Kyle & Yost have pain-stakingly established over many years. "
it's been two issues and you're already saying that...give the woman a chance before you start bashing her "

Three.  The previous x-23 one-shot.  But sillyness aside...  Yes, I'm bashing her.  A talented writer has successfully managed to attack several years of established history & relationships.  There's no need to demonise characters & treat previously established relationships so limply.  The work that Kyle & Yost did has provided a rich backgroudn to draw upon, but instead everything so far appears to be a focussed effort to unravel that tapresty of story-telling.
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#9 Posted by Detektor (83 posts) - - Show Bio
@k2 said:
" I think it's reasonable. Laura's always been his friend, and they've shared attraction; and I think the friendship has grown based on the fact that she doesn't treat him differently because of his hands. He's starting to notice things like that, now that he gets differential treatment from his peers and other friends. Remember the panel with the Cuckoo trying to feed him pizza? Yeah, Laura doesn't do stuff like that. She treats him just as before, which is something he wants. Trust me, it's not fun to be treated differently because of a disability. 
 
Also, he never said Laura is his only friend. Just said that she is his best friend, and given the reasoning above, it makes sense to me. "
When was the last time they had an actual conversation before X-23 #1? 
 
I think part of the problem is that Hellion seems to be coming across as sensitive and depressed instead of brash and angry. Wither had his shot.
#10 Edited by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio
@Detektor said:

" @k2 said:

" I think it's reasonable. Laura's always been his friend, and they've shared attraction; and I think the friendship has grown based on the fact that she doesn't treat him differently because of his hands. He's starting to notice things like that, now that he gets differential treatment from his peers and other friends. Remember the panel with the Cuckoo trying to feed him pizza? Yeah, Laura doesn't do stuff like that. She treats him just as before, which is something he wants. Trust me, it's not fun to be treated differently because of a disability. 
 
Also, he never said Laura is his only friend. Just said that she is his best friend, and given the reasoning above, it makes sense to me. "
When was the last time they had an actual conversation before X-23 #1?  I think part of the problem is that Hellion seems to be coming across as sensitive and depressed instead of brash and angry. Wither had his shot. "
There hasn't been many conversations shown in X-men other than war talks, period. I think it's the way she treats him that makes him appreciate her. Friendship isn't all about conversations, you know. After having something like that happen, I'd sure as hell pick a person who treated me as they used to over a bunch of people who just stare at my arm stubs. Also, Laura has risked her life for him many times, and vice versa. 
 
Sensitive and depressed? He's always been sensitive with his girls, that's what makes him so hot. Attitude to everyone unless you tame his heart! That's like a girl's wetdream right there ;0) As to the depressed part...really, you're saying you wouldn't be depressed if you lost both your hands? Really? Give the guy a break, dude. He's angry, but he hasn't been shown confronted with his attackers, just his peers. And he has been showing anger to many other students and X-men; he yelled at Celeste, Rogue, Shan, and Hope with Magneto.  
#11 Posted by Detektor (83 posts) - - Show Bio

It was well-established that he hates people coming to his rescue. It's bad for his ego. Besides, X-23 treating him the way she used to consists basically of stalking him and watching him sleep.
 
And when has Hellion ever been "sensitive" towards his love interests? Maybe you're just interpreting the series differently, but my impression was always that his magnetic personality and good looks barely made up for his being a complete jerk. Most of the New X-Men - including Wind Dancer - have expressed frustration about this, and if taking all three Cuckoos to the prom thing doesn't count as arrogant I don't know what does. I don't think Sofia "tamed his heart" so much as he kept hitting on her until they'd convinced themselves they were in some kind of relationship. Mercury's actually the only girl he's been consistently nice to, and that's probably because she's more of a sister figure.
 
He always used to channel his problems into anger, not sadness. If he was still being written by Kyle and Yost he'd be out breaking things. I'm not hating on Hellion here, he's one of my favourite comic characters, but primarily because of his personality problems. He could easily be the next Magneto if done right.

#12 Posted by ImperiousRix (1069 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, if you go by Comic Vine's X-23 page alone (which I'm doing, since I've only read the X-23 one-shot and issue #1), it makes  it seem like her and Hellion had a very close relationship.  So much to the point that X-23 actually "kills" Lady Deathstrike for impaling Julian. 
I'm not saying that they've ever really had the relationship explored that deeply, but it obviously didn't just come out of nowhere.

#13 Edited by Detektor (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Read Kyle and Yost's twenty-something issues of New X-Men. To sum up their relationship, she has a major crush to the extent of following him around and watching him sleep. The other students, particularly Mercury, gradually picked up on this and began teasing him about her.  They did have a two or three issue team-up later in the run, during which X-23 horrified him by slaughtering a load of criminals as they tried to save Mercury. He's stated that finds her attractive, but is literally scared of her animalistic tendencies. So no, they weren't close at all. X-23 savages Lady Deathstrike for impaling Julian, but up until Marjorie Liu's run she hadn't even tried starting a personal conversation.

#14 Posted by fbdarkangel (4884 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I believe that hellion and laura have romantic feelings for each other, they are still just friends, because they're still stupid and scared enough to not to admit their feelings. 
 
anyways can someone get scans of the scene in issue?

#15 Edited by Detektor (83 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a huge fan of both, but X-23 is way too disturbed to have a successful relationship. Pre-Liu Hellion was smart enough to realize that it was right to be scared. 

She needs at least a couple years of psychiatric rehabilitation,  Emma Frost sessions and likely medication before she can be trusted to make that kind of decision. 
 
I've read pretty much every comic she's regularly been in, and I tell you, there is not a psychiatrist on Earth that would conscientiously declare her sane.

#16 Edited by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not her sanity that's the problem. Medication is  not going to help her. She's experienced extreme trauma, and this has affected who she is now. But it is NOT a mental condition that affects her sanity. She has a sense of judgment, she would not harm her friends (unless affected by Trigger scent). She will kill if necessary, as she has been trained to do, and she may never be trained out of it. But it does not mean she will kill a friend voluntarily. Despite all this, Laura is a good person, if you'll remember she loved her mother, and her aunt, and cousin. As a person, the only thing that is going to develop her further is relationships, learning more about how other people live their lives, as she learns by observation. No, she will never be completely normal, but she will grow to understand better why people do the things they do. She will not cut herself as much as she learns to deal with the emotions; she is learning she has a soul, and a heart, and she will learn, too, to approach the people she wishes to talk to instead of dealing with her emotions this way. Remember that this has been her substitute for understanding and 'dealing with the problem' for a long time. As she learns to deal with the emotions in proper ways, the pressures will release, and she won't feel the urge to cut. It may never be eliminated completely but I don't think it'll be over every problem in her life.
 
Now for what makes her dangerous to others: trigger scent. The trigger scent is not an 'insane' condition; it is training. This she does need help with. This is what makes her dangerous to have around. Medication isn't going to erase her memory of trigger scent. And this is not something that is physically going to happen for her without being exposed to the scent by someone else (ex: Kimura). I don't count that as insanity in any way. I count that as her being exposed to something by another person either willfully wishing to cause harm, or accidentally, but this is outside of her mind and therefore not a part of her mental condition. If Emma can help her with this, then she will no longer endanger her friends and those she loves. 

#17 Posted by ka385385 (1288 posts) - - Show Bio

can't concur with this ,and you all know why ,Keller is a dick.
#18 Posted by Gawdzilla (376 posts) - - Show Bio
@ka385385 said:
" can't concur with this ,and you all know why ,Keller is a dick. "
If you don't like Hellion GTFO
#19 Edited by Detektor (83 posts) - - Show Bio
@k2 said:

" It's not her sanity that's the problem. Medication is  not going to help her. She's experienced extreme trauma, and this has affected who she is now. But it is NOT a mental condition that affects her sanity. She has a sense of judgment, she would not harm her friends (unless affected by Trigger scent). She will kill if necessary, as she has been trained to do, and she may never be trained out of it. But it does not mean she will kill a friend voluntarily. Despite all this, Laura is a good person, if you'll remember she loved her mother, and her aunt, and cousin. As a person, the only thing that is going to develop her further is relationships, learning more about how other people live their lives, as she learns by observation. No, she will never be completely normal, but she will grow to understand better why people do the things they do. She will not cut herself as much as she learns to deal with the emotions; she is learning she has a soul, and a heart, and she will learn, too, to approach the people she wishes to talk to instead of dealing with her emotions this way. Remember that this has been her substitute for understanding and 'dealing with the problem' for a long time. As she learns to deal with the emotions in proper ways, the pressures will release, and she won't feel the urge to cut. It may never be eliminated completely but I don't think it'll be over every problem in her life.
 
Now for what makes her dangerous to others: trigger scent. The trigger scent is not an 'insane' condition; it is training. This she does need help with. This is what makes her dangerous to have around. Medication isn't going to erase her memory of trigger scent. And this is not something that is physically going to happen for her without being exposed to the scent by someone else (ex: Kimura). I don't count that as insanity in any way. I count that as her being exposed to something by another person either willfully wishing to cause harm, or accidentally, but this is outside of her mind and therefore not a part of her mental condition. If Emma can help her with this, then she will no longer endanger her friends and those she loves.  "

I wasn't referring to anti-psychotics, but to mood stabilizers. She's not insane in the sense that she has schizophrenia, or in terms of the trigger scent. But she definitely does have an impaired sense of judgment. She wouldn't harm her friends for no reason, but she's shown no empathy whatsoever to other characters, including many of her teammates. She doesn't just kill "if necessary" - she almost always executes her defeated and incapacitated enemies, even after Hellion shouted at her that it was wrong. She cut off Vanisher's ear in order to rebuke him for cowardice. And she demolished the girl's washroom at Xavier's after Surge kissed Hellion, even though he was clearly struggling. She's tried to commit suicide on at least two separate occasions, and continues to hack up her limbs. Oh, and she coolly recommended that Cyclops execute Elixir in order to keep him quiet. This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more. She's the most habitually violent and least conscientious character on the X-Men. This is not a girl I would ask on a date.
 
I agree that relationships with other characters will help her recover, but not romantic ones. On top of her sociopathy, she's probably the most sexually-confused character I've ever read in a comic. Being cloned to emulate a male character, radiation to induce early puberty, training as an asexual weapon, then becoming a kinky prostitute (likely as an eternal virgin, although there's debate over what a healing factor entails in girls), and then going to school and developing a crush on the class alpha male? Emma Frost has her work cut out for her.
#20 Posted by Gawdzilla (376 posts) - - Show Bio

Serious post time:
 
One theme that i think that follows Hellion is the theme of loyalty and friendship.  If you can become one of Julian's friends you just earned a very loyal friend. He was willing to fight the FBI in Wither's case. I think perhaps the reason he called her his best friend is because she has in a way been the most loyal to him. She was the one who beat Deathstrike, she was the one to make saving him a top priority post Messiah War, she was the one at his bedside after he lost his hands. And in a certain light Julian is loyal to her, he was the one who begged Emma to help him save Laura, he was the one who pulled Elixir out of the agnst coma he was in to heal her, he wanted to go help Wolverine save her from the Facility, he was the main NXM who defended Laura was getting chewed out by Surge, he was the one who came to visit her after the fire. 
 
The point is that Julian and Laura are really loyal to one and another. And have gone to extreme lengths to save one another several times

#21 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio
@Detektor: 
I repeat, medication is not the answer. X-23's moods do not swing for no reason at all. She always has a reason; she needs to be taught how to deal with her feelings. Then she won't have violent reactions, because she will know how to deal with them. A medication will just dull her down so she can't react...but she's still going to feel the same way. Absolutely not. She executes her enemies because that is what she was trained. No one has sat down and had a heart-to-heart discussion with her about why this is wrong. Hellion said "OH GOD! WE DON'T KILL PEOPLE!"...but did that really explain why to her? Remember Logan yelling at Laura over Rahne? She listened; she put her claws back in and let her a** get whooped because he gave her the reason why not to kill Rahne. She needs to understand why she can't do this, and it has to be a sensible explanation that will touch her on an instinctual level, like Emma maybe showing her what happens when she kills, what the innocent people feel when they lose their loved ones (perhaps like Emma and Dani showed David his worst fear, made it real and that hit him on a deep level). In X-force, there was a general trend of ragging on Vanisher to make him comply; Elixir put a tumor in his head. Vanisher had attempted to bribe Elixir to remove it. She responded as she has been trained to do, believing his deserved pain in reprimand for misbehavior. What do you think Kimura taught her? She hasn't been shown why this is not done; and most of X-force merely laughed and thought it was funny. That doesn't teach her why the X-men don't do that. In NXM, she responded to her feelings because she doesn't know how else to express them. X-men are always throwing power tantrums when they're angry. Wolverine has gone into who-knows how many berserker rages. Yes, Laura demolished the bathroom and did not hurt Nori. Her comment regarding Elixir to Cyclops appeared to be a joke, which she does do from time to time. Josh is her friend and she would die to protect him; she's demonstrated her love for her friends enough times. 
 
I wouldn't call her sexually confused. She's not struggling with attraction to women; she's only shown attraction to men. She is confused what to do with her feelings, but that's a different matter. She's only seen the side of life where people engage in such actions for exchange of money; she doesn't realize that this action has an application for dealing with emotions. No one has sat Laura down and explained everything to her, when a girl likes a boy, etc. etc.  And how this helps with the feelings. If they did, she would feel awkward, but I'd bet you anything she'd try it out, rather than continue to hurt. If she didn't, it's because she's afraid the other person will get hurt one day by Kimura (who has threatened to hunt Julian down). The same way as Rogue pushed Gambit away in many X-men series (I'm counting some TV too) so she wouldn't hurt him. She didn't cut, but she got angry in other ways (I saw power tantrums galore in what I've seen her in). 
 
So my opinion: Seriously, no medication. Someone to sit down with her and take their time, and show her why these things are bad. Not punish her, not tell her "NO! BAD!" like a dog, but help her understand. In my opinion having a good partner can help you understand certain life things; mine has taught me alot on how to handle certain situations (including situations with people), by example. I rant about my day to him, he gives me an opinion, and I'm like 'f*** why didn't I think of that!'.   
 
Note that with my arguments, I'm not trying to change your opinion...no one ever wins anything that way. Just putting my opinions out there. I like talking about these characters ^^
#22 Edited by Detektor (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Mood medications aren't meant to dull the senses but to keep thoughts generally happy. And yes, she's super-violent because that's the way she was trained. But she was trained to be a remorseless killer from birth, and that means her brain is almost certainly hardwired differently. I don't know how well a long talk would help a girl who hadn't had any emotional connections until the age of twelve or so. She's young enough to be retrained and develop the unused neural connections, but probably not entirely. It takes a long time for child soldiers to be rehabilitated into society as "normal" teenagers.
 
I didn't mean sexually confused as in homosexual, I meant confused in regards to her conflicting experiences and urges - but you understood that anyways. I still don't think she could handle a relationship greater than friendship at this point, but that's a matter of opinion. 
 
(Is there any way to move this thread into Laura's forum?)

#23 Posted by fbdarkangel (4884 posts) - - Show Bio

hellion you're a schmuck!

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