Anyone know where he is after X-23?

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#1 Posted by MetallicMercury (82 posts) - - Show Bio

Since he's appeared in the (now cancelled) X-23 series, does he return to the X-Men or join Laura in the Avengers Academy when X-23 ends?

#2 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32651 posts) - - Show Bio
@MetallicMercury: He is at the Jean Grey School in Wolverine and the X-Men
#3 Posted by Gawdzilla (376 posts) - - Show Bio

@MetallicMercury said:

Since he's appeared in the (now cancelled) X-23 series, does he return to the X-Men or join Laura in the Avengers Academy when X-23 ends?

@spiderbat87 said:

@MetallicMercury: He is at the Jean Grey School in Wolverine and the X-Men

What Spider said. I would imagine that he'll be appearing every now and then in WATXM or X-Men Legacy

#4 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

Go away, Malorie Liu.

You brought Hellion back for this, seriously? What a waste of three, rather terrible, issues.

What another what to sh!t on an already down-trodden character.

Glad this book is being cancelled.

#5 Posted by Joshelplex (4 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel hates Hellion. Its the only possible answer.

#6 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

It's because Sofia's not here, idc. -_-

#7 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

Yet another one of my favorite characters is being ruined by Marvel.

**** you, Marvel Comics.

#8 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

He was epic during the New X-men.......................... even Prodigy gets more relevant screen time.

#9 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@rokusan23 said:

He was epic during the New X-men.......................... even Prodigy gets more relevant screen time.

True, and sadly yes.

#10 Posted by EnSabahNurX (2313 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

Go away, Malorie Liu.

You brought Hellion back for this, seriously? What a waste of three, rather terrible, issues.

What another what to sh!t on an already down-trodden character.

Glad this book is being cancelled.

she broke up two characters who are never going to end up together because they are never is the same place emotionally or physically. It removes another distraction from hellion, you must tear a character down in order to bring him back up which is what's going to happen. They even let hellion keep his AoX hands with the full knowledge how to use them, Liu was just tying up a loose ends so that Hellion could move on emotionally and stop pining because laura knew she couldn't be in a relationship till she can understand the emotional commitment needed. If you hated the arc that was simply suppose to be light hearted because the other arcs were too heavy than thats ur preference and more power to you. But that's no reason to insult Liu who has done a good job with laura and gambit

@jrock85 said:

Yet another one of my favorite characters is being ruined by Marvel.

**** you, Marvel Comics.

Ruined? in the x-23 ongoing? i think he was ruined way before that lol but i think he will be coming around soon at the new school

#11 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@EnSabahNurX said:

@John Valentine said:

Go away, Malorie Liu.

You brought Hellion back for this, seriously? What a waste of three, rather terrible, issues.

What another what to sh!t on an already down-trodden character.

Glad this book is being cancelled.

she broke up two characters who are never going to end up together because they are never is the same place emotionally or physically. It removes another distraction from hellion, you must tear a character down in order to bring him back up which is what's going to happen. They even let hellion keep his AoX hands with the full knowledge how to use them, Liu was just tying up a loose ends so that Hellion could move on emotionally and stop pining because laura knew she couldn't be in a relationship till she can understand the emotional commitment needed. If you hated the arc that was simply suppose to be light hearted because the other arcs were too heavy than thats ur preference and more power to you. But that's no reason to insult Liu who has done a good job with laura and gambit

That's not why Laura dumped him. She dumped him because she didn't like him anymore. (This is what she said to Gambit afterwards).

Liu doesn't care for Hellion or tying up loose ends; she just wanted to make X-23 seem all evolved and matured, whilst not caring about slamming Hellion into the ground (yet again) in doing so. In the latest issue she had him stare at Laura whilst she played football with Iceman, Gambit and Jubilee, also having Jubilee call him a "creep".

#12 Posted by CellphoneGirl (18819 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@EnSabahNurX said:

@John Valentine said:

Go away, Malorie Liu.

You brought Hellion back for this, seriously? What a waste of three, rather terrible, issues.

What another what to sh!t on an already down-trodden character.

Glad this book is being cancelled.

she broke up two characters who are never going to end up together because they are never is the same place emotionally or physically. It removes another distraction from hellion, you must tear a character down in order to bring him back up which is what's going to happen. They even let hellion keep his AoX hands with the full knowledge how to use them, Liu was just tying up a loose ends so that Hellion could move on emotionally and stop pining because laura knew she couldn't be in a relationship till she can understand the emotional commitment needed. If you hated the arc that was simply suppose to be light hearted because the other arcs were too heavy than thats ur preference and more power to you. But that's no reason to insult Liu who has done a good job with laura and gambit

That's not why Laura dumped him. She dumped him because she didn't like him anymore. (This is what she said to Gambit afterwards).

Liu doesn't care for Hellion or tying up loose ends; she just wanted to make X-23 seem all evolved and matured, whilst not caring about slamming Hellion into the ground (yet again) in doing so. In the latest issue she had him stare at Laura whilst she played football with Iceman, Gambit and Jubilee, also having Jubilee call him a "creep".

Reading that makes me want to avoid that issue lol

#13 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxCellPhoneGirlxx: Avoid it, by all means. I've never seen characters act so out of role. She even had Laura speaking out of the norm (had her use the word 'guys'). And that scene with Hellion was just so...weird. I have no idea why she continued to include him in the story, if she's not going to do it properly. Just spare him the abuse, please. He's seen enough.

God, someone needs to dust Hellion off and give him some writer's love.

#14 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2 said:

@xxCellPhoneGirlxx: Avoid it, by all means. I've never seen characters act so out of role. She even had Laura speaking out of the norm (had her use the word 'guys'). And that scene with Hellion was just so...weird. I have no idea why she continued to include him in the story, if she's not going to do it properly. Just spare him the abuse, please. He's seen enough.

God, someone needs to dust Hellion off and give him some writer's love.

One day Hellion will be an A-list X-Man!!! (I hope).

#15 Posted by volnaib (44 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2 said:

And that scene with Hellion was just so...weird.

Laura: Why does he watch me?

Me: Yeah, WHY, damn it! Haven't he said that "I haven't been able to stop thinking about you" thing? Do you think those were just some meaningless words and he's gonna go through it like "Oh, okay, she doesn't like me, so screw it, I'm gonna live my life as she's never been a part of it"?

Still hoping there might be some LOGICAL reason why she's blown him away in such a rough manner.

#16 Posted by CellphoneGirl (18819 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: Thank you :]

@John Valentine: One day when i become a writer for X-Men i'm going to be known for making dusty characters like him shine in the spotlight.

#17 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@volnaib said:

@k2 said:

And that scene with Hellion was just so...weird.

Laura: Why does he watch me?

Me: Yeah, WHY, damn it! Haven't he said that "I haven't been able to stop thinking about you" thing? Do you think those were just some meaningless words and he's gonna go through it like "Oh, okay, she doesn't like me, so screw it, I'm gonna live my life as she's never been a part of it"?

Still hoping there might be some LOGICAL reason why she's blown him away in such a rough manner.

There is a perfectly logical reason. Marjorie Liu is panicking to tie off lose ends in her story--in a hurry--along with the rest of her busy schedule, so she downed like ten five-hour-energy drinks and hunkered down with her laptop. /end sarcasm

0:-)

#18 Posted by Mutant God (3020 posts) - - Show Bio

his next role could be either laura's stalker in AA or the most hated student in WATXM, wow thats sad

#19 Posted by Rightous_Man (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, that a tough roll if hes going to become the most hated. I mean they have Quire. The pink haired idiot of a telepath. And i love how these comics RADICALLY change the age and appearance of various characters. His appearance during his telepathic attack on the UN summit where Logan and Scott had planned to make a speech he looked like a teenager near 18 or maybe even 20. In WAXM he looks like... i dunno 15? 16 even? If Julian is the most powerful TK user currently in existence ( I'm pretty sure he is if Emma takes his blocks out ) then Quire is the strongest Telapath. So hes got competition for the most annoying / hated. Now would he really follow Laura and become a avenger? Ah... i mean yeah OK the avengers are kinda cool and all but following her is just going to be him being persevered as a clingy ex boyfriend guy and god knows various conversational plot points will bring it up over, and over. Hellion truly is marvels most hated character at this time mainly because they just kinda set him to the side. On a off topic note, I think my new favorite character is Kenji from Generation Hope. He made Martha a body! That's pretty damn cool and... is it weird that shes kinda hot? Shes like a cross between that female alien in the species movie and something else.

#20 Edited by VenomMelendez (405 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine:

Wow, Petty much? First of all, Liu is an excellent writer and this was a great book. Besides, Julian has always been a jerk and a bully and quite frankly Laura can do better.

@k2: Liu just wrote him perfectly in character. Because Julian is a jerk.

#21 Posted by xerox_kitty (15761 posts) - - Show Bio

@VenomMelendez said:

@John Valentine:

Wow, Petty much? First of all, Liu is an excellent writer and this was a great book. Besides, Julian has always been a jerk and a bully and quite frankly Laura can do better.

@k2: Liu just wrote him perfectly in character. Because Julian is a jerk. Seriously, stop the Draco in leather pants thing.

The "Draco in leather pants thing" sounds petty to me.

Julian isn't just an out & out jerk. That's the bad characterisation of Matt Fraction & Liu. He's pompous and is easily freaked out by things he doesn't understand; like when he mysteriously gained the obvious sexual attraction of X-23 when she first entered the Institute, he kept her at a cold distance until he grew to understand her. Likewise, Surge used to be a caring & open girl who'd fight to protect her friends as she used to be a homeless loner turned on Laura for absolutely no reason. Liu has successfully severed all of X-23's ties to her old friends & New X-Men team-mates in order to replace them with a small random collection of characters. Vampire Jubilee has had so little to do with Laura is now "You're so sweet & cute & we're BFFs!" while Gambit the renowned loner is the man who's arms she runs to for comfort...??? The only way this makes sense is if Liu wanted to write an X-Men title featuring her favourite characters from the 90's cartoon but was stuck with an X-Force cast-off.

Kyle & Yost have put years of hard work into X-23, the character that they created. In just over a year, Liu has undone all their work.

The fact that X-23 is now appearing in a team-book that's written by someone who clearly has a passion for both character and their established continuities gives me hope that I can once again like X-23. I used to like the character, but that ongoing successfully killed any sympathy & empathy I had for the character.

Moderator
#22 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerox_kitty said:

Julian isn't just an out & out jerk. That's the bad characterisation of Matt Fraction & Liu. He's pompous and is easily freaked out by things he doesn't understand; like when he mysteriously gained the obvious sexual attraction of X-23 when she first entered the Institute, he kept her at a cold distance until he grew to understand her. Likewise, Surge used to be a caring & open girl who'd fight to protect her friends as she used to be a homeless loner turned on Laura for absolutely no reason. Liu has successfully severed all of X-23's ties to her old friends & New X-Men team-mates in order to replace them with a small random collection of characters. Vampire Jubilee has had so little to do with Laura is now "You're so sweet & cute & we're BFFs!" while Gambit the renowned loner is the man who's arms she runs to for comfort...??? The only way this makes sense is if Liu wanted to write an X-Men title featuring her favourite characters from the 90's cartoon but was stuck with an X-Force cast-off.

Kyle & Yost have put years of hard work into X-23, the character that they created. In just over a year, Liu has undone all their work.

The fact that X-23 is now appearing in a team-book that's written by someone who clearly has a passion for both character and their established continuities gives me hope that I can once again like X-23. I used to like the character, but that ongoing successfully killed any sympathy & empathy I had for the character.

I <3 this.

#23 Edited by VenomMelendez (405 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerox_kitty:

That is completely false

First of all, X-23 cutting ties with them came way before, because they were giving her crap for being part of X-Force. And Julian has always been a Bully and a jerk, he's the Biff Tannen of the Mutant kids. That's something that's been a part of him since the Academy X days. He even treated X-23 badly, that is not a healthy way to start a relationship.

And Btw, the X-23 and Jubilee friendship make perfect sense considering what they both mean to Wolverine. And Gambit isn't much of a loner, since he's usually part of a group and Remy is a caring individual.

And no, Liu hasn't undone their work, In Fact, Liu's run has gained much critical acclaim(including the reviewers from this site). The only ones who seem mad, are the ones that forget that Julian was never that nice.

Really, Laura deserves someone nicer.

#24 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@VenomMelendez said:

@John Valentine:

Wow, Petty much? First of all, Liu is an excellent writer and this was a great book. Besides, Julian has always been a jerk and a bully and quite frankly Laura can do better.

@k2: Liu just wrote him perfectly in character. Because Julian is a jerk.

I'd recommend doing more research before you try to speak with authority. :-)

Also, Liu's moved on to writing other characters out of whack, such as the star of her series...so much that I had difficulty reading the latest issue. Just so many things were wrong. Laura's dialogue...that very strange scene...a lame attempt to touch on her days as a hooker in NYX....seriously, that kind of stuff can't be handled in two-thirds of a comic.

Those aren't the only examples, of course. I can name a bunch off the top of my head, like incorrect portrayals of Laura's healing factor, nonsensical plotlines, and seemingly behind-the-scenes interactions/decisions that took place throughout the course of the series. So no, I don't consider Liu an 'excellent writer', at least when it comes to comic books and maintaining a character's traits. Maybe her books are better? I don't know...I had enough of the fantasy themes in X-23 to last a lifetime, so I'm not about to read more of it.

#25 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@VenomMelendez said:

@xerox_kitty:

That is completely false

First of all, X-23 cutting ties with them came way before, because they were giving her crap for being part of X-Force. And Julian has always been a Bully and a jerk, he's the Biff Tannen of the Mutant kids. That's something that's been a part of him since the Academy X days. He even treated X-23 badly, that is not a healthy way to start a relationship.

And Btw, the X-23 and Jubilee friendship make perfect sense considering what they both mean to Wolverine. And Gambit isn't much of a loner, since he's usually part of a group and Remy is a caring individual.

And no, Liu hasn't undone their work, In Fact, Liu's run has gained much critical acclaim(including the reviewers from this site). The only ones who seem mad, are the ones that forget that Julian was never that nice.

Really, Laura deserves someone nicer.

Can't resist adding a few things:

Have you even read the X-23 series? Jubilee and X-23 hold entirely different places in Logan's heart...that was explained...and please, the Gambit thing was weird. Having him randomly tag along with a teenaged girl. It might not have been so strange if Laura had been the one tagging along with him. I agree with xeroxkitty. Liu wanted the 90's cartoon, and made it work with the character she was given. Some of the stories I found interesting, but in the overall picture...no.

As for 'Draco in leather pants': Julian's always been bittersweet--even to Sofia, his ex. That's what makes him an interesting character. I hardly call him risking his life (no less than three times) to save Laura 'treating her badly'. Verbally, his 'treating her badly' in NXM is him calling her 'clone' mostly in a teasing manner. Three times he was nasty, and I suspect that had something to do with the fact that she was freaking him out. Most people get hostile when they feel threatened by something. To top these notes off, he underwent quite an overhaul under Kyle & Yost. They showed him growing up and working with the rest of the team, and feeling less and less threatened by Laura, showing that he was concerned about her well-being.

I don't know where on earth Liu and her writer-cronies (the ones that destroyed Hellion) got the idea to make him seem creepy. I'm not certain how some readers managed to interpret him as 'abusive'. On what evidence? The only times he's physically touched Laura in the comics are to save her life and to ask her to stay when she was power-walking out of his room (with no reasoning given). He released her immediately and apologized several times.

Keep it coming, I love talking about my favorite characters :-)

#26 Posted by MetallicMercury (82 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this has just turned into a 'we hate Liu' forum at this point.

#27 Edited by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@VenomMelendez said:

@xerox_kitty:

That is completely false

First of all, X-23 cutting ties with them came way before, because they were giving her crap for being part of X-Force. And Julian has always been a Bully and a jerk, he's the Biff Tannen of the Mutant kids. That's something that's been a part of him since the Academy X days. He even treated X-23 badly, that is not a healthy way to start a relationship.

And Btw, the X-23 and Jubilee friendship make perfect sense considering what they both mean to Wolverine. And Gambit isn't much of a loner, since he's usually part of a group and Remy is a caring individual.

And no, Liu hasn't undone their work, In Fact, Liu's run has gained much critical acclaim(including the reviewers from this site). The only ones who seem mad, are the ones that forget that Julian was never that nice.

Really, Laura deserves someone nicer.

Out of all of the posts here, this is the one I agree with the most.

I don't like the way Julian was treated at the end of X-23 solo series - I thought it was a perfect opportunity to show that he had grown, but it was not far out of character. As for Laura being chatty? Don't you think that perchance she might be growing a little. The conversation she had with Gambit in regards to Julian I thought was great.

I like Julian, I was kind of hoping something would have come out of the relationship that was hinted at the beginning of the X-23 series, but all in all, I really enjoyed Liu's treatment of X-23 and other characters that appeared throughout all 21 issues.

Just my thoughts on it.

Getting back on topic, I sincerely hope some focus is put on Hellion - he's a power house and frankly, the rich spoiled brat routine is getting tiresome. He should have grown out of that stage by now.

....Far from out of character...grown out of his spoiled brat routine? How has Julian ever been portrayed as spoiled? He doesn't act like hes entitled to things. He's been shown to be arrogant, but that's mostly because how of how incredibly confident he is in his own abilities. Not because his parents has a lot of money. Hellion hasn't even had any money since his parents disowned him way back in 2003. Not far out of character? Oh man i must have missed those stories in which Mr. Keller stalked Sofia from behind trees.

The conversation she had with gambit shouldn't have even been had with gambit. It should have been had with Julian. She treats Julian like absolute crap..and then explains to Gambit in a not at all insensitive and or bitchie way..why she isn't DTF Julian? WTF is Liu's hard on for gambit about anyway? Isn't he like in his mid thirties? Why is he always following X23 around like he wants watch her on stickam or something? And he's always flirting with her..shes like...16.

The whole Babysitting arc seems like it was sit up just to trash Julian. Laura shows up to the school tells Julian he looks like crap and he smells. Julian tells he hes scared that hes dangerous and doesn't know what to do. Who...Who!!!?!?!? more than X-23 knows about being a danger to other people and not knowing what to do? Who better to comfort and talk to Julian? And what does she do? Oh....Wolverine didn't send me here to talk to you so...bye. And then she leaves. Seriously? He then grabs her arm and tells her not to go, and Gambit acts like he just walked in on the Comedian trying to rape Silk Spectre. Gambit verbally casturates Julian in front of the girl he possibly loves, for something that really wasn't that big of a deal. Julian than stalks her whole life on the boardwalk...at this point i'm thinking Marjorie Liu is the Stephanie Meyers of the Comic book world. She's supposed to be writting for Astonishing X-Men,, so i'll be avoiding that title like the plague. I don't need to read her romance fantasy between Gambit and Cecilia Reyes. It's bad enough that Rogue and Magnetos love life is the focus in X-men Legacy. OMG why hasn't Magneto called me yet?!?!...Ugh

#28 Posted by SC (12691 posts) - - Show Bio
@lykopis said:

No - the conversation with Gambit was perfect. Your take that his relationship with Laura was out of the ordinary (flirtling? really?) I do not agree with. He is protective of X-23, and that was clearly established early on in the series, when Cyclops, Storm and himself discussed her leaving Utopia.

 
 
Actually I think you are projecting too much into this..... If I say that Gambit the fictional character who is in his 50's is hiding outside Laura's bushes with chloroform rags, then obviously, that's exactly how the writer wrote the scene and how everyone should interpret it factually and its nothing to do with my own projections. Why does Laura treat Julian so bad? Doesn't she know she belongs to him? She is his property? I don't care if writers have given there opinions on his character, they are obviously wrong.  All of them! Hellion is just really confident UNNNN AAAACEEEEEEEE PPPTTTTTTAAAAAAAA BLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEE! 
Moderator
#29 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

Liu's depiction of Hellion was atrocious. End of. She destroyed him to develop X-23. Julian had never been shown like that before.

Liu severed X-23's connection to pretty much all the characters she knew beforehand (New X-Men etc) and forced relationships between X-23 and some of her other favourite X-characters, Jubilee and Gambit.

#30 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone tell me how Liu destroyed X-23 in detail, please. I'm interested.

((Also, how does she normally talk, anyway? I keep hearing nitpicks over her dialogue.))

#31 Posted by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@lykopis said:

@VenomMelendez said:

@xerox_kitty:

That is completely false

First of all, X-23 cutting ties with them came way before, because they were giving her crap for being part of X-Force. And Julian has always been a Bully and a jerk, he's the Biff Tannen of the Mutant kids. That's something that's been a part of him since the Academy X days. He even treated X-23 badly, that is not a healthy way to start a relationship.

And Btw, the X-23 and Jubilee friendship make perfect sense considering what they both mean to Wolverine. And Gambit isn't much of a loner, since he's usually part of a group and Remy is a caring individual.

And no, Liu hasn't undone their work, In Fact, Liu's run has gained much critical acclaim(including the reviewers from this site). The only ones who seem mad, are the ones that forget that Julian was never that nice.

Really, Laura deserves someone nicer.

Out of all of the posts here, this is the one I agree with the most.

I don't like the way Julian was treated at the end of X-23 solo series - I thought it was a perfect opportunity to show that he had grown, but it was not far out of character. As for Laura being chatty? Don't you think that perchance she might be growing a little. The conversation she had with Gambit in regards to Julian I thought was great.

I like Julian, I was kind of hoping something would have come out of the relationship that was hinted at the beginning of the X-23 series, but all in all, I really enjoyed Liu's treatment of X-23 and other characters that appeared throughout all 21 issues.

Just my thoughts on it.

Getting back on topic, I sincerely hope some focus is put on Hellion - he's a power house and frankly, the rich spoiled brat routine is getting tiresome. He should have grown out of that stage by now.

....Far from out of character...grown out of his spoiled brat routine? How has Julian ever been portrayed as spoiled? He doesn't act like hes entitled to things. He's arrogant, because how of how incredibly confident he is in his own abilities. Hellion hasn't even had any money since his parents disowned him way back in 2003. Not far out of character? Oh man i must have missed those stories in which Mr. Keller stalked Sofia from behind trees.

The conversation she had with gambit shouldn't have even been had with gambit. It should have been had with Julian. She treats Julian like absolute crap..and then explains to Gambit in a not at all insensitive and or bitchie way..why she isn't DTF Julian? WTF is Liu's hard on for gambit about anyway? Isn't he like in his mid thirties? Why is he always following X23 around like he wants watch her on stickam or something? And he's always flirting with her..shes like...16.

The whole Babysitting arc seems like it was sit up just to trash Julian. Laura shows up to the school tells Julian he looks like crap and he smells. Julian tells he hes scared that hes dangerous and doesn't know what to do. Who...Who!!!?!?!? more than X-23 knows about being a danger to other people and not knowing what to do? Who better to comfort and talk to Julian? And what does she do? Oh....Wolverine didn't send me here to talk to you so...bye. And then she leaves. Seriously? He then grabs her arm and tells her not to go, and Gambit acts like he just walked in on the Comedian trying to rape Silk Spectre. Gambit verbally casturates Julian in front of the girl he possibly loves, for something that really wasn't that big of a deal. Julian than stalks her whole life on the boardwalk...at this point i'm thinking Marjorie Liu is the Stephanie Meyers of the Comic book world. She's supposed to be writting for Astonishing X-Men,, so i'll be avoiding that title like the plague. I don't need to read her romance fantasy between Gambit and Cecilia Reyes. It's bad enough that Rogue and Magnetos love life is the focus in X-men Legacy. OMG why hasn't Magneto called me yet?!?!...Ugh

I think you misunderstood me. He is being portrayed as a rich spoiled kid NOW --- in this X-23 series and in Wolverine and the X-Men, which to me, doesn't make any sense. Even if that was the impression he gave off before (which I don't think it was), he's been through enough in his life to have grown up. But --- just for the sake of wanting to be clear, acting spoiled is still possible even if you have the silver spoon ripped out of your mouth. It's a mind-set.

I have to ask you tone done your rhetoric just a tad - and yes, not too far out of character that when he wants something, he aims to get it. I don't believe he was stalking Laura, but his assumption that she would want to be with him was a bit high-handed. Not unheard of by someone with his confidence levels. Confidence is not always a good thing, it can blind you to things as well.

No - the conversation with Gambit was perfect. Your take that his relationship with Laura was out of the ordinary (flirtling? really?) I do not agree with. He is protective of X-23, and that was clearly established early on in the series, when Cyclops, Storm and himself discussed her leaving Utopia.

And yes, while you would think she would be more empathetic towards Julian when he admitted to her his fears, what makes her so horrible that she isn't in a place to help him? If anything, that would have been horribly out of character for HER. Again, like I said, Julian made a lot of assumptions and he was wrong. And yes, again - if anyone grabs someone else as aggressively as he did to Laura, anyone coming along would have reacted like Gambit. But Gambit is the bad guy because he "verbally castrated" Julian in front of the girl he possibly loves?

Sorry -- again --- what makes Julian the more important one? In Gambit's eyes, it's Laura. But in your eyes, evidently it's Julian. Because manhandling someone is no big deal. Gotcha. But hey -- you consider Laura's behaviour when discussing Julian to Gambit as insensitive and bitchy...interesting.

I like Liu - you don't, fair enough. You aren't interested in Astonishing, I am. I like Julian's character, I had rather liked the idea of him and Laura being together, but clearly it wasn't meant to be. I just hope someone takes his character on and does something with it more deserving than the resident bully at JGA.

Thank you for your take on this.

No he isn't being portayed as a spoiled rich kid. I dont even know how you came to this summation. In X-23 hes portayed as an emo loner. And in Legacy hes portayed as an Angry, whiny dangerous kid, who shuns his friends. And in WATXM he's potrayed as the atypical bully who still hangs with friends. Yes hellion has done like 4 different 180's in terms of character progression..but none of them involved him being a spoiled rich kid. Logan Huntzberger in season 5 of the Gilmore Girls is an example of a spoiled rich kid. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

And i have to ask you to town down your fan-wanking. The portrayal of Julian was crap...anyone who actually knows this character can see that. Your defense of Liu's portrayal of Hellion is almost as terrible as her writing. You don't know anything about Julian's character if you think your description of him is accurate. When Julian had the opportunity to become rich and famous at the time a dream come true..he turned it down because there was a chance people might get hurt. Julian wanted to be the leader of Emma's new team of x-men..he turned it down just to repay an honor debt to X-23. Julian wants to always be in the spotlight..and yet when he knows other peopels talents are more suited for situation he has no problem in letting them take over.

It's not about her helping him..she didn't even stick around to let him finish talking. She didn't even react to what he had just told her...she acted like she didn't care. She didn't show concern..she didn't show disgust....she showed a complete lack of f***s about Hellion and what he was going through. Anyone who has read Academy x and X-force knows exactly why her cold demeanor is out of character. I remember Laura breaking down and crying her eyes out at the very thought of someone harming Julian....so no..it would not be out of character for her to act like shes gives a damn about Julian's plight. What exactly has Liu been doing with laura for 2 years for you to think treating her friends like crap is the norm? Julian made some assumptions? Yes he assumed that laura gave a crap...obviously he was wrong.

Who said anything about importance? How is Laura more important than Julian and Vice versa? How is wishing death on an emotionally disturbed 16 year old war veteran and threatening to blow off his limbs not an over reaction? Julian didn't threaten her, he didn't use his Telekinesis to harm her, grabbed her arm an asked a simple question. Is she staying in Westchester? And some how this warrants death and loss of limbs? Oh watch out lady, hes a wife beater because he wanted to exchange dialogue with someone being a b!tch. Someone call Gloria Allred. Julian has the ability to lift fighter jets..if he was violent towards X3, he would have ripped her arm off.

She tells Julian she doesn't want him and not even caring enough to explain to him why. But then she spills her heart out......to Gambit? The guy who just wished death upon the guy who saved her life and was one of the first people to ever befriend her? "Why does he watch me?" I dont know b*tch why did you watch him??!?!?

I think Liu is worst than Britta. No i WAS interested, until i heard she would be taking over. Now i wont be. I like Julian's Character too...i however don't like Lius treatment of Julian's character. Or Laura's character. I hoped X-23 would keep Julian warm for the real love os his life..Sofia Mantega. And yes Julian does deserve MUCH better. All of his fellow New X-men do. I cant for the life of me understand, why they dont have books that focus specifically on the so called Next generation of X-men. Instead we get yet another Wolverine book.

And yours.

#32 Posted by SC (12691 posts) - - Show Bio
@lykopis said:

@SC said:

@lykopis said:

No - the conversation with Gambit was perfect. Your take that his relationship with Laura was out of the ordinary (flirtling? really?) I do not agree with. He is protective of X-23, and that was clearly established early on in the series, when Cyclops, Storm and himself discussed her leaving Utopia.

Actually I think you are projecting too much into this..... If I say that Gambit the fictional character who is in his 50's is hiding outside Laura's bushes with chloroform rags, then obviously, that's exactly how the writer wrote the scene and how everyone should interpret it factually and its nothing to do with my own projections. Why does Laura treat Julian so bad? Doesn't she know she belongs to him? She is his property? I don't care if writers have given there opinions on his character, they are obviously wrong. All of them! Hellion is just really confident UNNNN AAAACEEEEEEEE PPPTTTTTTAAAAAAAA BLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEE!

why_you_mad_tho?

 
I am not mad! I am just arrogant, because how of how incredibly confident I am in my own abilities. Don't worry though, this thread is just a warmer for me, until the real thread I love, the What Kind Of Grease Do You Like To See Hercules Wrestle in thread gets revived. 
Moderator
#33 Edited by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@why_you_mad_tho said:

No he isn't being portayed as a spoiled rich kid. I dont even know how you came to this summation. In X-23 hes portayed as an emo loner. And in Legacy hes portayed as an Angry, whiny dangerous kid, who shuns his friends. And in WATXM he's potrayed as the atypical bully who still hangs with friends. Yes hellion has done like 4 different 180's in terms of character progression..but none of them involved him being a spoiled rich kid. Logan Huntzberger in season 5 of the Gilmore Girls is an example of a spoiled rich kid. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

And i have to ask you to town down your fan-wanking. The portrayal of Julian was crap...anyone who actually knows this character can see that. Your defense of Liu's portrayal of Hellion is almost as terrible as her writing. You don't know anything about Julian's character if you think your description of him is accurate. When Julian had the opportunity to become rich and famous at the time a dream come true..he turned it down because there was a chance people might get hurt. Julian wanted to be the leader of Emma's new team of x-men..he turned it down just to repay an honor debt to X-23. Julian wants to always be in the spotlight..and yet when he knows other peopels talents are more suited for situation he has no problem in letting them take over.

It's not about her helping him..she didn't even stick around to let him finish talking. She didn't even react to what he had just told her...she acted like she didn't care. She didn't show concern..she didn't show disgust....she showed a complete lack of f***s about Hellion and what he was going through. Anyone who has read Academy x and X-force knows exactly why her cold demeanor is out of character. I remember Laura breaking down and crying her eyes out at the very thought of someone harming Julian....so no..it would not be out of character for her to act like shes gives a damn about Julian's plight. What exactly has Liu been doing with laura for 2 years for you to think treating her friends like crap is the norm? Julian made some assumptions? Yes he assumed that laura gave a crap...obviously he was wrong.

Who said anything about importance? How is Laura more important than Julian and Vice versa? How is wishing death on an emotionally disturbed 16 year old war veteran and threatening to blow off his limbs not an over reaction? Julian didn't threaten her, he didn't use his Telekinesis to harm her, grabbed her arm an asked a simple question. Is she staying in Westchester? And some how this warrants death and loss of limbs? Oh watch out lady, hes a wife beater because he wanted to exchange dialogue with someone being a b!tch. Someone call Gloria Allred. Julian has the ability to lift fighter jets..if he was violent towards X3, he would have ripped her arm off.

She tells Julian she doesn't want him and not even caring enough to explain to him why. But then she spills her heart out......to Gambit? The guy who just wished death upon the guy who saved her life and was one of the first people to ever befriend her? "Why does he watch me?" I dont know b*tch why did you watch him??!?!?

I think Liu is worst than Britta. No i WAS interested, until i heard she would be taking over. Now i wont be. I like Julian's Character too...i however don't like Lius treatment of Julian's character. Or Laura's character. I hoped X-23 would keep Julian warm for the real love os his life..Sofia Mantega. And yes Julian does deserve MUCH better. All of his fellow New X-men do. I cant for the life of me understand, why they dont have books that focus specifically on the so called Next generation of X-men. Instead we get yet another Wolverine book.

And yours.

Angry, dangerous, whiny kid who shuns his friends....a bully who still hangs out with his friends.....these are your words and yet, pretty descriptive of what most spoiled rich kids are like. Thank you for your example of what of spoiled rich kid is through the use of yet another fictional character. I come to my conclusions based on some real-life personalities but hey --- you have your take, I have mine.

Fan-wanking?? I will let your words speak for yourself --- keep those tissues handy.

X-23 broke down in tears and cried her eyes out at the very thought of someone harming Julian? I am sure we read the same books and yet, I don't recall that at all. I do know she threatened to kill anyone who harmed him - I do know she would watch over him....but becoming emotionally devastated?

Julian threatened to kill Gambit - and Gambit responded with it being a hard thing to do considering he was "Death." They were both pretty aggressive. And yes, no one has the right to put their hands on you, for whatever reason. You still call Laura a bitch and point out that if Julian wanted to kill her, he would have. What exactly is your point? That he didn't drop a fighter jet on her head, he's a gentle soul? I don't think Laura was fearful for her life in anyway, she is more than capable of taking care of herself. But being manhandlled isn't the best way to get convinced in answering someone's question.

Again, you called Laura a bitch...that's two times in this reply post alone.

I agree about Liu's treatment of Julian. I was pretty surprised - and if ultimately you would have preferred X-23 keep Julian warm for Sofia, then you've really sealed your take on your affection for her as a character. Good thing they didn't put these two together, but considering their pasts together and Laura's previous crush on him, they could have at least had the two of them part ways amicably. For me, I keep in mind when Hellion saved X-23's life, tearing half-way around the world to do so and for him to be treated as some over zealous, meaty handed goof is a terrible way to leave him in the minds of readers.

I want Surge and gang in their own book again -- Marvel continues to prove their disconnection to a large portion of their customers by constantly focusing on Wolverine. I agree with you there at least.

Yes those are my words..and no they in no way describe a stereotypical spoiled rich kid. I honestly don't care why you think a broke, depressed, angry kid who keeps to himself = Spoiled and rich.Your opinion on what a TYPICAL "spoiled rich kid" is ridiculous. And i'm not going to debate this.

...ok?

Do we read the same comics? I can't really tell. And yes X-23 broke down and cried in the pages of X-force after Kiruma threatened to hunt down and kill her Classmates and her "telekinetic boyfriend"

Julian threatned Gambit after Gambit threatend him. If some pedophile threatned to blow my legs off you'd better believe he's getting his heart stopped. Julian didnt manhandle Laura..he doesn't even have hands. Seeing as you completely fail to grasp the difference between serious signs of depression and being spoiled from having too much money...i dont really feel like listening to your take on whats considered "manhandling". Perhaps you should try Google, although i doubt it'll help. If Julian Manhandled lauras arm with his TK..she wouldn't have an arm anymore. It really is that simple. She asked Julian to release his hold..and he did. There wasnt really any need for Gambits input or threats. That whole scene seems like it was set up by Liu just to have Hellion punked by Gambit.

Only twice? I'm sure i can do better than that. I called her a bitch because thats exactly what she was acting like. Anyone who turns their back on a friend whos possibly capable of hurting himself and others is pretty mucha bitch in my book. She didnt have to sleep with him. She could however had acted like a decent human being. Being completely ungrateful for Hellion saving her life. Telling him she wanted nothing to do wih him with out giving him the decency of explaining why...but then semi explains it to Gambit seconds later? Yeah...bitch. I don't blame laura..i blame Lius terrible writing, and mischaracterizations.

Yes because thinking Sofia is better for Julian means i hate Laura right? I guess you used the same train of thought to deduce depressed people are spoiled rich kids? The problem for me is, they were finally in a point in their lives where they were capable of understanding each other. Laura being more in touch with her emotions, should have been there for Julian. And Julian is in a place in his life that wasn't too different from how Laura use to feel, so he has a better understanding of her. liu could have written a beautiful story which ended with Juliand and Luara ending their "relationship" amicably. Instead we got 4 issues of Liu performing a character assassination on Julian Keller that would make Cole Turner say "Damn".

Hellion, Rockslide, Anole, Surge, Pixie, Dust, Mercury..and maybe Prodigy and Quentin Quire.....make it happen Joe

#34 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@why_you_mad_tho:

Woah.

Depression means spoiled? That's what you got from what I wrote?

You pick and choose snippets of what I write and outright ignore your own words to prove what exactly? You are free to not respond to me -- you initiated this conversation and yet you point out that you don't care what I have to say in your last post. Why reply at all? This is just the internet, these are just fictional characters. I enjoy hearing about other people's takes on things, especially when they run differently from mine but it's hard to take what you say seriously when you are being insulting. I am not attacking you - far from. You make some very valid observations, most I happen to agree with. But your hostility is uncalled for. I am trying to have a real conversation with you - but continuing to be insulting makes it difficult.

Laura is slowly beginning to understand what it is to "act" human. Many people have tried reaching out to Julian -- he is the one shunning them. He should turn to someone other than a young girl who clearly has her own issues. I felt bad for him -- more so because Laura is incapable of being the friend he needs right now. What Liu did was make me feel sorry for HIM, not HER. I was unhappy with what happened. It would have been great to see Laura comfort Julian. But you are missing so many of my points and are instead hung up on my impression of Julian. This is my opinion, just as you have yours - I acknowledge we have differing views. Nothing I have said and nothing you have said changed either of our minds. That happens sometimes, no foul.

Hey, I get it. One of your favourite characters has been treated badly by many writers working for Marvel. If you haven't noticed, I agree with you.

You are upset that Julian is being portrayed as a punked, depressed, emo kid. Again, I get it but calling fictional characters bitches and child molesters is pretty extreme. I am not about to argue the reasons I feel you are wrong as I think it is safe to assume you are not interested in my opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. It's all good on my end, I appreciate you taking the time to converse with me.

Clearly you have an agenda - I will leave you to it -- but don't presume to know the depth of my knowledge in regards to depression and suicide. I won't be quantifying to you my experience of both - pretty sure you and I both know how serious and horrible depression can be. If anything, what a wonderful opportunity for Marvel to expand on, using Julian as a catalyst. If there is anyone who has the right to be angry and resentful --- he clearly fits the bill.

Good post. I see your side of things.

I still feel that Liu handled it incorrectly, though, especially how it was kind of contradictory to how Mike Carey wrote Hellion in his last issue of Legacy. I suppose that's more of an editorial thing, though.

Seriously hope she doesn't damage some of my favourite characters on Astonishing.

#35 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@VenomMelendez said:

@xerox_kitty:

That is completely false

First of all, X-23 cutting ties with them came way before, because they were giving her crap for being part of X-Force. And Julian has always been a Bully and a jerk, he's the Biff Tannen of the Mutant kids. That's something that's been a part of him since the Academy X days. He even treated X-23 badly, that is not a healthy way to start a relationship.

And Btw, the X-23 and Jubilee friendship make perfect sense considering what they both mean to Wolverine. And Gambit isn't much of a loner, since he's usually part of a group and Remy is a caring individual.

And no, Liu hasn't undone their work, In Fact, Liu's run has gained much critical acclaim(including the reviewers from this site). The only ones who seem mad, are the ones that forget that Julian was never that nice.

Really, Laura deserves someone nicer.

So wrong. Have you read New X-Men?

#36 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@John Valentine said:

@lykopis said:

@why_you_mad_tho:

Woah.

Depression means spoiled? That's what you got from what I wrote?

You pick and choose snippets of what I write and outright ignore your own words to prove what exactly? You are free to not respond to me -- you initiated this conversation and yet you point out that you don't care what I have to say in your last post. Why reply at all? This is just the internet, these are just fictional characters. I enjoy hearing about other people's takes on things, especially when they run differently from mine but it's hard to take what you say seriously when you are being insulting. I am not attacking you - far from. You make some very valid observations, most I happen to agree with. But your hostility is uncalled for. I am trying to have a real conversation with you - but continuing to be insulting makes it difficult.

Laura is slowly beginning to understand what it is to "act" human. Many people have tried reaching out to Julian -- he is the one shunning them. He should turn to someone other than a young girl who clearly has her own issues. I felt bad for him -- more so because Laura is incapable of being the friend he needs right now. What Liu did was make me feel sorry for HIM, not HER. I was unhappy with what happened. It would have been great to see Laura comfort Julian. But you are missing so many of my points and are instead hung up on my impression of Julian. This is my opinion, just as you have yours - I acknowledge we have differing views. Nothing I have said and nothing you have said changed either of our minds. That happens sometimes, no foul.

Hey, I get it. One of your favourite characters has been treated badly by many writers working for Marvel. If you haven't noticed, I agree with you.

You are upset that Julian is being portrayed as a punked, depressed, emo kid. Again, I get it but calling fictional characters bitches and child molesters is pretty extreme. I am not about to argue the reasons I feel you are wrong as I think it is safe to assume you are not interested in my opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. It's all good on my end, I appreciate you taking the time to converse with me.

Clearly you have an agenda - I will leave you to it -- but don't presume to know the depth of my knowledge in regards to depression and suicide. I won't be quantifying to you my experience of both - pretty sure you and I both know how serious and horrible depression can be. If anything, what a wonderful opportunity for Marvel to expand on, using Julian as a catalyst. If there is anyone who has the right to be angry and resentful --- he clearly fits the bill.

Good post. I see your side of things.

I still feel that Liu handled it incorrectly, though, especially how it was kind of contradictory to how Mike Carey wrote Hellion in his last issue of Legacy. I suppose that's more of an editorial thing, though.

Seriously hope she doesn't damage some of my favourite characters on Astonishing.

This times a million infinities. Can I say that?

This was EXACTLY what threw me off in regards to Hellion because while reading Legacy, I felt I entered an entirely different world when I read X-23's book. And to add to that --- the teasers leading up to Hellion being part of X-23's world led me to believe they would at least explore a potential relationship and explore her feelings towards him that were left unresolved when she first left Utopia to embark on her journey. I wasn't adverse to it (I am now though) and really - how can anyone argue that Julian's character wasn't treated terribly?

I like Liu -- but yes, I am wary now. A little nervous about my Northstar and Gambit for the new Astonishing coming out next week.

Hellion saving Ariel took place before he left Utopia, so it was obviously before the arc in X-23.

In the last four years he's been disowned by his family and friends, lost his hands, been stabbed through the chest, been kidnapped and infected with the Legacy virus, been incarcerated, lost his girlfriend, been threatened by senior X-Men for saving Hope, a young child and several X-Men from a rogue Omega Sentinel etc, with little development to show for it. This X-23 thing is just another put down in a long series, starting all the way back in Messiah Complex. Whenever something good happens to him, for example gaining better control over his powers following disarmament, showing potential as a hero etc, something bad then happens to slam him back down into place. It's like one step forward and two steps back; that is what I find annoying.

Yep, I agree. Liu's comments in interview and even the cover with them kissing lead me to believe that they'd, I don't know, get back together again or something (I agree, I don't think it's the best for them to be together, actually). I thought things were looking up for Hellion, but evidently not. Also, the way she handled Hellion was completely different to how he'd been shown before, in any book, even compared to her own depiction of him previously shown in the series. Admittedly he's been shown to be angry, but she made him seem physically abusive. Second to that, having Jubilee call him "creepy" in the next issue just added injury to insult.

I just hope she doesn't out as gay Iceman and pair him up with Northstar in Astonishing.

#37 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@John Valentine said:

Hellion saving Ariel took place before he left Utopia, so it was obviously before the arc in X-23.

In the last four years he's been disowned by his family and friends, lost his hands, been stabbed through the chest, been kidnapped and infected with the Legacy virus, been incarcerated, lost his girlfriend, been threatened by senior X-Men for saving Hope, a young child and several X-Men from a rogue Omega Sentinel etc, with little development to show for it. This X-23 thing is just another put down in a long series, starting all the way back in Messiah Complex. Whenever something good happens to him, for example gaining better control over his powers following disarmament, showing potential as a hero etc, something bad then happens to slam him back down into place. It's like one step forward and two steps back; that is what I find annoying.

Yep, I agree. Liu's comments in interview and even the cover with them kissing lead me to believe that they'd, I don't know, get back together again or something (I agree, I don't think it's the best for them to be together, actually). I thought things were looking up for Hellion, but evidently not. Also, the way she handled Hellion was completely different to how he'd been shown before, in any book, even compared to her own depiction of him previously shown in the series. Admittedly he's been shown to be angry, but she made him seem physically abusive. Second to that, having Jubilee call him "creepy" in the next issue just added injury to insult.

I just hope she doesn't out as gay Iceman and pair him up with Northstar in Astonishing.

O_O

Shhhh...you might be giving out ideas.....

Oh, Bobby's sexuality's constantly under question at CBR, mainly by trolls.

#38 Posted by Mercy_ (92477 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd actually LOVE to see a rekindled Hellion/Northstar mentorship.

Moderator
#39 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@John Valentine: Oh, that is so annoying. Yes, forbid there ever be a main character who doesn't have some sort of love story surrounding him/her at all times. Making Iceman gay is so unimaginative...and I can see that happening.

If Liu was clever enough to convince the editorial staff at Marvel, she could have Hellion take a prominent position in Astonishing with Northstar being a mentor of some sort to get him through this dark time. This would work, especially because of their previous affection for each other as a brother/older brother type way.

Frankly, I just want Hellion back into the spotlight and fixed. Leaving him like this (that creepy remark by Jubilee was --- ugh) is terrible and undeserving as a character who really - is far above so many others in term of potential. Quentin having more attention just makes it all the more worse, my opinion.

So true!

#40 Edited by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@why_you_mad_tho:

Woah.

Depression means spoiled? That's what you got from what I wrote?

You pick and choose snippets of what I write and outright ignore your own words to prove what exactly? You are free to not respond to me -- you initiated this conversation and yet you point out that you don't care what I have to say in your last post. Why reply at all? This is just the internet, these are just fictional characters. I enjoy hearing about other people's takes on things, especially when they run differently from mine but it's hard to take what you say seriously when you are being insulting. I am not attacking you - far from. You make some very valid observations, most I happen to agree with. But your hostility is uncalled for. I am trying to have a real conversation with you - but continuing to be insulting makes it difficult.

Laura is slowly beginning to understand what it is to "act" human. Many people have tried reaching out to Julian -- he is the one shunning them. He should turn to someone other than a young girl who clearly has her own issues. I felt bad for him -- more so because Laura is incapable of being the friend he needs right now. What Liu did was make me feel sorry for HIM, not HER. I was unhappy with what happened. It would have been great to see Laura comfort Julian. But you are missing so many of my points and are instead hung up on my impression of Julian. This is my opinion, just as you have yours - I acknowledge we have differing views. Nothing I have said and nothing you have said changed either of our minds. That happens sometimes, no foul.

Hey, I get it. One of your favourite characters has been treated badly by many writers working for Marvel. If you haven't noticed, I agree with you.

You are upset that Julian is being portrayed as a punked, depressed, emo kid. Again, I get it but calling fictional characters bitches and child molesters is pretty extreme. I am not about to argue the reasons I feel you are wrong as I think it is safe to assume you are not interested in my opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. It's all good on my end, I appreciate you taking the time to converse with me.

Clearly you have an agenda - I will leave you to it -- but don't presume to know the depth of my knowledge in regards to depression and suicide. I won't be quantifying to you my experience of both - pretty sure you and I both know how serious and horrible depression can be. If anything, what a wonderful opportunity for Marvel to expand on, using Julian as a catalyst. If there is anyone who has the right to be angry and resentful --- he clearly fits the bill.

By your definition yes..apparently it does. I don't know if you're feigning ignorance or are genuinely confused..but ok heres a recap. I gave the personalities changes Hellion displayed in the 3 books he recently appeared in. In x-23 and Legacy (more so in x-23) he is portrayed as a depressed kid with serious anger issues.. in Wolverine and the xmen he was the opposite. YOU decided to merge all of these personalities and then went... oh.. that's what a spoiled rich kid acts like and so hes exactly the same way he has always been portrayed. Which made me point out...since when do spoiled rich kids display signs of depression? Better yet when has he displayed a i have money so im better than you attitude? I didnt pick and choose snippets of anything...nor did i ignore my own words. I dont need you to condescendingly tell me comic book aint serious bizznas..i'm not overly emotional over fictional characters..im just genuinely annoyed by some of the stuff you say and haven't said. So far you've insinuated i support violence against women because i didnt think hellion "manhandled" laura. And then you used the stated i didn't like Laura because i want Hellion to be with Sofia. You come off like the fan-boys in the battle forums, and this is the tone in which i reply to them. What i mean is...i cant take you or your quasi chivalrous attitude seriously. I'm trying to have a real conversation with you as well...which is hard to do when you flip flop so much, insinuate nonsense, and just show a general lack of knowledge about the characters we're discussing.

Laura was slowly doing that way back in 2009. Youre telling me shes no better than she was in xforce after liu had a 2 year run with her? That only makes me like Lius writing less. And what does that even mean? She sat at a table and told Gambit exactly why she didnt want Hellion anymore. She displayed enough conversational skill to explain it to Gambit...why was she the exact opposite when tallking to Hellion? You cant say Laura doesnt have the capacity to be normal when she does it a page later to someone who needs that talk far less than Hellion does. Many people? LOL who?? Name one. Julian stated on panel that he was lost and didnt know what to do..and didnt have anyone to talk to. Wolverine flat out stated he didn't give a crap about Hellion or his problems. Rogue and Cyclops both threatened him for not only defending himself..but saving the mutant messiah, and an entire team of X-men and a little girl. He's rewarded by being threatened with death and imprisonment because he didn't feel sorry enough? Funny i dont remember Cyclops feeling sorry when he left Boom Boom, Hellion and Surge to die. What Liu made me feel is anger towards her portrayal of Hellion and Laura. You're not making any points at all...and im pretty sure the ONLY reason i replied to your post was for you to give reasoning to your impression of Julian. Yes we do have differing views..that much is obvious...i'm looking to see WHY you view Julian Keller the way you do. I'm not here to..nor do i really care to change your mind.

No that isnt why i'm upset. I explained to you why i was upset and what i was upset with. I've explained in this thread and multiple others on why i was upset...so i dont understand why you're still putting words in my mouth. If laura was a real person and someone described to me her actions in The adventures of babysitter arc i would say shes a bitch..end of story. I dont care if you think its extreme. And as far as the gambit thing goes i was repeating Julians sentiments. Because Julians "that guy" right Liu? I'm not wrong so that should be your most important reason. If i wasnt interested in your opinion i would have ignored you like the idiot who keeps trolling this forum. With that said...i'm not interested in your faulty generalizations, assumptions, and insinuations. And quite frankly...i honestly believe you don't know anything about Hellion if all he ever was to you is Biff Tannen with mutant powers.

Yes my agenda is finding out why you have such an askew view of hellion. You agree that he has never been nothing more than an ignorant bully..a Biff Tannen type no less. Funny i dont remember Hellion attempting to rape women in the back of cars on prom. Pretty sure he showed up with 3 women and gained the love of another. I don't remember Julian beating up bullies and making them do his homework. I remember him fighting Homeland security just so his friends can enjoy the simple freedom of getting on an airplane. I remember Julian sitting in Cessily's room every night as she recovered from her attack. I remember Julian telling the whole student body to shut their faces and stop judging Kevin. You stated that you've read the same comics as i have....i honestly cant tell.

Yes i do know how serious depression can be. Apparently having too much money is a real problem for us depressed kids...so all i have to do is get rid of my millions of dollars and i'll be a ok. Marvel wont expand on anything unless wolverines on every page. Apparently Anole is miraculously cured of his Post traumatic Stress he had. Marvel wont take a risk in discussion Hellions signs of serious depression. Thats why he's all happy and suddenly retconned to being pals with Mercury, rockslide and Anole again. Hes breathing fresh air, and being all chummy with broo too. They had storyline that was to be devloped in the very earlier pages of New mutants in which Anole was too commit suicide. Ironially enough Christina Weir & Nunzio DeFilippis stated they're glad it didnt go through because they didnt like where it would have taken Julian as a Character. "Yes and no. It was a story we were very proud of, and one that could have gotten Marvel some publicity (hopefully positive, though probably some controversy too). So on that level, I still wish it had gone forward. Plus, it was a great story for Northstar and Shan. Yet, too much has happened, and I like where things have gone, so for the most part, I'm content. Much as I like the response to Victor, he's not the reason. Julian is. Julian, in the old story, would have come off as far more cruel. We had a scene in a later issue of him mourning Victor and regretting his actions, but no-one would have seen that but Sofia. And I'm not sure that what he did in those issues would have been redeemed by that one scene.So, given how Julian has developed, I'm glad that story never happened. "Julian who developed since then is not a guy who'd have a problem with Victor being gay. In fact, he'd wipe the walls with anyone who did."

Yes if there is anyone who deserves to be angry..its Julian Keller. That of course wasn't even close to the point i was trying to make.

#41 Posted by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress said:

I'd actually LOVE to see a rekindled Hellion/Emma Frost mentorship.

fixed

#42 Posted by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@why_you_mad_tho:

I was pretty clear in my previous posts. Your decision to continuously misconstrue what I wrote is on you, so is your insulting assumptions about me and what I know of either character. The only thing you posted that raised any interest in me responding was the following:

Yes my agenda is finding out why you have such an askew view of hellion. You agree that he has never been nothing more than an ignorant bully..a Biff Tannen type no less. Funny i dont remember Hellion attempting to rape women in the back of cars on prom. Pretty sure he showed up with 3 women and gained the love of another. I don't remember Julian beating up bullies and making them do his homework. I remember him fighting Homeland security just so his friends can enjoy the simple freedom of getting on an airplane. I remember Julian sitting in Cessily's room every night as she recovered from her attack. I remember Julian telling the whole student body to shut their faces and stop judging Kevin. You stated that you've read the same comics as i have....i honestly cant tell.

I never once compared or said Julian was like Biff Tannen. Makes me question if you even read what I wrote, or if you are confusing me with someone else.

If you want to continue this discussion through PM, you are welcome to do so. I don't want to derail this thread any further from its original intent. I won't be responding to you again.

And i was pretty clear. I didnt assume, you implied and or stated.

No you didnt call him Biff Tannen....you just stated that out of all the post made here you agreed with the one in which someone did called Julian Biff Tannen. You then went on to say Julian has never matured or grown as a character. And then you stated that Liu's portrayal of him.. wasn't too far off from how he's usually portrayed. All of which i and apparently many others strongly disagree with. I read exactly what you wrote..which is why i skipped the post you were agreeing with..and replied to yours instead. No need for a pm, we've both said what we needed to say.

#43 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@John Valentine: Oh, that is so annoying. Yes, forbid there ever be a main character who doesn't have some sort of love story surrounding him/her at all times. Making Iceman gay is so unimaginative...and I can see that happening.

If Liu was clever enough to convince the editorial staff at Marvel, she could have Hellion take a prominent position in Astonishing with Northstar being a mentor of some sort to get him through this dark time. This would work, especially because of their previous affection for each other as a brother/older brother type way.

Frankly, I just want Hellion back into the spotlight and fixed. Leaving him like this (that creepy remark by Jubilee was --- ugh) is terrible and undeserving as a character who really - is far above so many others in term of potential. Quentin having more attention just makes it all the more worse, my opinion.

Oh please god, NO.

First of all...what previous brother/older brother relationship? Hellion never even liked Northstar to begin with, found him to be a very stiff and uncaring mentor. He transferred out from Northstar to Emma Frost as soon as he could. The only time he showed any consideration to Northstar at all was at his funeral (only in private, with Sofia), and I'm pretty sure he would have reacted like that about any staff member.

Secondly, after how Liu handed Julian throughout the majority of his appearance...keep her away from him. He doesn't need a spotlight just right now. Let him be happy and safe in the background till someone half-decent comes along and gives him the justice he deserves.

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@lykopis said:

@why_you_mad_tho:

Woah.

Depression means spoiled? That's what you got from what I wrote?

You pick and choose snippets of what I write and outright ignore your own words to prove what exactly? You are free to not respond to me -- you initiated this conversation and yet you point out that you don't care what I have to say in your last post. Why reply at all? This is just the internet, these are just fictional characters. I enjoy hearing about other people's takes on things, especially when they run differently from mine but it's hard to take what you say seriously when you are being insulting. I am not attacking you - far from. You make some very valid observations, most I happen to agree with. But your hostility is uncalled for. I am trying to have a real conversation with you - but continuing to be insulting makes it difficult.

Laura is slowly beginning to understand what it is to "act" human. Many people have tried reaching out to Julian -- he is the one shunning them. He should turn to someone other than a young girl who clearly has her own issues. I felt bad for him -- more so because Laura is incapable of being the friend he needs right now. What Liu did was make me feel sorry for HIM, not HER. I was unhappy with what happened. It would have been great to see Laura comfort Julian. But you are missing so many of my points and are instead hung up on my impression of Julian. This is my opinion, just as you have yours - I acknowledge we have differing views. Nothing I have said and nothing you have said changed either of our minds. That happens sometimes, no foul.

Hey, I get it. One of your favourite characters has been treated badly by many writers working for Marvel. If you haven't noticed, I agree with you.

You are upset that Julian is being portrayed as a punked, depressed, emo kid. Again, I get it but calling fictional characters bitches and child molesters is pretty extreme. I am not about to argue the reasons I feel you are wrong as I think it is safe to assume you are not interested in my opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. It's all good on my end, I appreciate you taking the time to converse with me.

Clearly you have an agenda - I will leave you to it -- but don't presume to know the depth of my knowledge in regards to depression and suicide. I won't be quantifying to you my experience of both - pretty sure you and I both know how serious and horrible depression can be. If anything, what a wonderful opportunity for Marvel to expand on, using Julian as a catalyst. If there is anyone who has the right to be angry and resentful --- he clearly fits the bill.

By your definition yes..apparently it does. I don't know if you're feigning ignorance or are genuinely confused..but ok heres a recap. I gave the personalities changes Hellion displayed in the 3 books he recently appeared in. In x-23 and Legacy (more so in x-23) he is portrayed as a depressed kid with serious anger issues.. in Wolverine and the xmen he was the opposite. YOU decided to merge all of these personalities and then went... oh.. that's what a spoiled rich kid acts like and so hes exactly the same way he has always been portrayed. Which made me point out...since when do spoiled rich kids display signs of depression? Better yet when has he displayed a i have money so im better than you attitude? I didnt pick and choose snippets of anything...nor did i ignore my own words. I dont need you to condescendingly tell me comic book aint serious bizznas..i'm not overly emotional over fictional characters..im just genuinely annoyed by some of the stuff you say and haven't said. So far you've insinuated i support violence against women because i didnt think hellion "manhandled" laura. And then you used the stated i didn't like Laura because i want Hellion to be with Sofia. You come off like the fan-boys in the battle forums, and this is the tone in which i reply to them. What i mean is...i cant take you or your quasi chivalrous attitude seriously. I'm trying to have a real conversation with you as well...which is hard to do when you flip flop so much, insinuate nonsense, and just show a general lack of knowledge about the characters we're discussing.

Laura was slowly doing that way back in 2009. Youre telling me shes no better than she was in xforce after liu had a 2 year run with her? That only makes me like Lius writing less. And what does that even mean? She sat at a table and told Gambit exactly why she didnt want Hellion anymore. She displayed enough conversational skill to explain it to Gambit...why was she the exact opposite when tallking to Hellion? You cant say Laura doesnt have the capacity to be normal when she does it a page later to someone who needs that talk far less than Hellion does. Many people? LOL who?? Name one. Julian stated on panel that he was lost and didnt know what to do..and didnt have anyone to talk to. Wolverine flat out stated he didn't give a crap about Hellion or his problems. Rogue and Cyclops both threatened him for not only defending himself..but saving the mutant messiah, and an entire team of X-men and a little girl. He's rewarded by being threatened with death and imprisonment because he didn't feel sorry enough? Funny i dont remember Cyclops feeling sorry when he left Boom Boom, Hellion and Surge to die. What Liu made me feel is anger towards her portrayal of Hellion and Laura. You're not making any points at all...and im pretty sure the ONLY reason i replied to your post was for you to give reasoning to your impression of Julian. Yes we do have differing views..that much is obvious...i'm looking to see WHY you view Julian Keller the way you do. I'm not here to..nor do i really care to change your mind.

No that isnt why i'm upset. I explained to you why i was upset and what i was upset with. I've explained in this thread and multiple others on why i was upset...so i dont understand why you're still putting words in my mouth. If laura was a real person and someone described to me her actions in The adventures of babysitter arc i would say shes a bitch..end of story. I dont care if you think its extreme. And as far as the gambit thing goes i was repeating Julians sentiments. Because Julians "that guy" right Liu? I'm not wrong so that should be your most important reason. If i wasnt interested in your opinion i would have ignored you like the idiot who keeps trolling this forum. With that said...i'm not interested in your faulty generalizations, assumptions, and insinuations. And quite frankly...i honestly believe you don't know anything about Hellion if all he ever was to you is Biff Tannen with mutant powers.

Yes my agenda is finding out why you have such an askew view of hellion. You agree that he has never been nothing more than an ignorant bully..a Biff Tannen type no less. Funny i dont remember Hellion attempting to rape women in the back of cars on prom. Pretty sure he showed up with 3 women and gained the love of another. I don't remember Julian beating up bullies and making them do his homework. I remember him fighting Homeland security just so his friends can enjoy the simple freedom of getting on an airplane. I remember Julian sitting in Cessily's room every night as she recovered from her attack. I remember Julian telling the whole student body to shut their faces and stop judging Kevin. You stated that you've read the same comics as i have....i honestly cant tell.

Yes i do know how serious depression can be. Apparently having too much money is a real problem for us depressed kids...so all i have to do is get rid of my millions of dollars and i'll be a ok. Marvel wont expand on anything unless wolverines on every page. Apparently Anole is miraculously cured of his Post traumatic Stress he had. Marvel wont take a risk in discussion Hellions signs of serious depression. Thats why he's all happy and suddenly retconned to being pals with Mercury, rockslide and Anole again. Hes breathing fresh air, and being all chummy with broo too. They had storyline that was to be devloped in the very earlier pages of New mutants in which Anole was too commit suicide. Ironially enough Christina Weir & Nunzio DeFilippis stated they're glad it didnt go through because they didnt like where it would have taken Julian as a Character. "Yes and no. It was a story we were very proud of, and one that could have gotten Marvel some publicity (hopefully positive, though probably some controversy too). So on that level, I still wish it had gone forward. Plus, it was a great story for Northstar and Shan. Yet, too much has happened, and I like where things have gone, so for the most part, I'm content. Much as I like the response to Victor, he's not the reason. Julian is. Julian, in the old story, would have come off as far more cruel. We had a scene in a later issue of him mourning Victor and regretting his actions, but no-one would have seen that but Sofia. And I'm not sure that what he did in those issues would have been redeemed by that one scene.So, given how Julian has developed, I'm glad that story never happened. "Julian who developed since then is not a guy who'd have a problem with Victor being gay. In fact, he'd wipe the walls with anyone who did."

Yes if there is anyone who deserves to be angry..its Julian Keller. That of course wasn't even close to the point i was trying to make.

Quoted for truth. I support a lot of these statements. Well said.

#44 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

What could have been.....

I utterly hate you for posting that :'(

I'll just go to my bed and cry now.

#45 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@lykopis said:

What could have been.....

I utterly hate you for posting that :'(

I'll just go to my bed and cry now.

Urgh.

Two things that really annoy me about this:

Firstly, this just shows how much of a waste it is not developing Hellion; he's awesome. It compounds everything pro-Julian this thread has said in a mere two panels.

Secondly, most of the New X-Men kids are in limbo/posing as wallpaper characters in Legacy and WATXM (not literally in Limbo, they had an arc there in 2007, haha, I'm so funny!). Marvel doesn't really do anything with them, or it allows for them to be maimed, again, example: Hellion. Yet a book as rubbish and New Mutants is still being published. Oh, Marvel....

#46 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

Urgh.

Two things that really annoy me about this:

Firstly, this just shows how much of a waste it is not developing Hellion; he's awesome. It compounds everything pro-Julian this thread has said in a mere two panels.

Secondly, most of the New X-Men kids are in limbo/posing as wallpaper characters in Legacy and WATXM (not literally in Limbo, they had an arc there in 2007, haha, I'm so funny!). Marvel doesn't really do anything with them, or it allows for them to be maimed, again, example: Hellion. Yet a book as rubbish and New Mutants is still being published. Oh, Marvel....

  1. Indeed. And it doesn't necessarily have to be in conjuction with X-23, I feel that Liu was just fangirling over the latter and turned a relationship completely around, making an infatuation relationship being completely turned around with no actual explanation. Hell, I thought it was a push in the first issue when there was that "leaf" scene where he tried to grab the leaf of her hair but couldn't due to the fact that he had just lost his hand -- but I let it slide because I was confident Liu could do something with them. How much I fcked up with that, eh? I mean, the best thing to come out of X's solo book really, is pretty much the Gambit/X relationship. Hell, even the Jubilee/X relationship felt forced, and I'm not exactly sure what I felt about her characterization, I can't remember whether it was good.
  2. That was actually more funny than you think, given the current situation is so sad. I don't mind him being maimed, I was just hoping they would do something with it.
#47 Posted by SC (12691 posts) - - Show Bio
@lykopis said:

Woah.

Depression means spoiled? That's what you got from what I wrote?

You pick and choose snippets of what I write and outright ignore your own words to prove what exactly? You are free to not respond to me -- you initiated this conversation and yet you point out that you don't care what I have to say in your last post. Why reply at all? This is just the internet, these are just fictional characters. I enjoy hearing about other people's takes on things, especially when they run differently from mine but it's hard to take what you say seriously when you are being insulting. I am not attacking you - far from. You make some very valid observations, most I happen to agree with. But your hostility is uncalled for. I am trying to have a real conversation with you - but continuing to be insulting makes it difficult.

Laura is slowly beginning to understand what it is to "act" human. Many people have tried reaching out to Julian -- he is the one shunning them. He should turn to someone other than a young girl who clearly has her own issues. I felt bad for him -- more so because Laura is incapable of being the friend he needs right now. What Liu did was make me feel sorry for HIM, not HER. I was unhappy with what happened. It would have been great to see Laura comfort Julian. But you are missing so many of my points and are instead hung up on my impression of Julian. This is my opinion, just as you have yours - I acknowledge we have differing views. Nothing I have said and nothing you have said changed either of our minds. That happens sometimes, no foul.

Hey, I get it. One of your favourite characters has been treated badly by many writers working for Marvel. If you haven't noticed, I agree with you.

You are upset that Julian is being portrayed as a punked, depressed, emo kid. Again, I get it but calling fictional characters bitches and child molesters is pretty extreme. I am not about to argue the reasons I feel you are wrong as I think it is safe to assume you are not interested in my opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. It's all good on my end, I appreciate you taking the time to converse with me.

Clearly you have an agenda - I will leave you to it -- but don't presume to know the depth of my knowledge in regards to depression and suicide. I won't be quantifying to you my experience of both - pretty sure you and I both know how serious and horrible depression can be. If anything, what a wonderful opportunity for Marvel to expand on, using Julian as a catalyst. If there is anyone who has the right to be angry and resentful --- he clearly fits the bill.

 
ZOMFG. Quoted for being the irrefutable truth from which no deception can hide from.  Perfectly stated like the sound of a billion angels prancing around tweeting 'perfection' in blissful exuberance. If statements could be posted and laminated then chiseled into Marvel, then photographed to be loaded onto a DVD to be sent into space, I would nominated this translated into 300 different languages and audio recorded by Morgan Freeman and Christopher Walken in duet mode. Can anything be more accurate and perfect and well said? Maybe knowing the mysteries of the Universe and human brain, but neigh I say, even then.  
Moderator
#48 Posted by SC (12691 posts) - - Show Bio

Now that's out of my system lol  
 
I wonder how Kathryn Immonen would write him. Hellion isn't the first character to be underutilized, or unfavorably written by some writers, its an X-Tradition, and most characters tend to bounce and use other characters to get where they are going. I like identifying writers that could do good things for characters, so I wonder if Immonen would be a good fit with Julian. I also like anthology titles, so would like to see him there in a short story.  

Moderator
#49 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

Gambit and X-23's sudden friendship seems weird and forced to me. Not a fan.

Also, I wish someone would just stake Jubilee. She's always annoyed me, unless she's been on-panel in her Wondra costume not saying anything. That's fine.

#50 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't help but laugh, SC has always had a talent.

@John Valentine said:

Gambit and X-23's sudden friendship seems weird and forced to me. Not a fan.

I'm not sure, when I read their relationship it was, admittedly after it had developed into what its become, but I did enjoy the nod to it that was given in Astonishing X-Men, though perhaps I should because its Liu. Wait... Its just occured to me, what if Liu f*cks Astonishing?!?!?!?! That like my dream team >__<

Also, I wish someone would just stake Jubilee. She's always annoyed me, unless she's been on-panel in her Wondra costume not saying anything. That's fine.

Its just that they don't know what the hell they need to do with her, Marvel needs to get their sh*t together.

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