Is the character worthless?

#1 Posted by entropy_aegis (15443 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay i used to like harley in the old animated shows, in comics she's okay with selina and ivy ,BUT it's the jokers henchgirl thing about her that always bugs me. 
I'm sorry but she simply makes the man look tame ,plain and simple .ever since she burst in to the scene i found it hard to take them both seriously (joker is supposed to be batman's biggest foe),all the years with harley turned the man in to a major league jobber(beatdowns at the hands of hush and jason come to mind). 
but ever since Grant morrison took charge of the books,the first thing he did was dissolve their relationship and in the process i noticed a PHENOMINAL transformation. 
Compare the joker from hush,no mans land,under the hood and lost days to the joker from clown at midnight,RIP and batman and robin.Now that's how joker should be written,now i'm not saying that he should be a psycho all the time,(Cornells recent issue of action comics comes to mind),but like i said batman's greatest foe should not be jobbing to ex sidekicks  or emerging new villians . 
I brought this up cause harley will be meeting the joker in sirens after a gap of 3-4 years(blissful years). 
If she becomes a joker character all over again ,then i honestly pray that joker goes oberon sexton on her and BURIES HER ALIVE.  

#2 Posted by tara_la_reine (7 posts) - - Show Bio

No, the character is most certainly not worthless. The Joker's run-ins with Hush and Jason are not related to Harley. What happens to him- and indeed all comic characters- is at the descretion of the writer. Because of who the Joker is, a great many writers choose to have their new characters have a run-in with him in attempts to "prove" how tough said characters are. Look back; the Joker as ostensibly had his butt kicked by lesser characters a lot. I like Morrison's Joker, but he's not the only writer to ably express the Joker's menace. The problem with Harley is that few writers have a clue as to how to write her. They tend to write her as purely comedic instead of exploring her wickedness. Truth is, they've been writing her as a heroine or anti-heroine for about as long as she's been in the mainstream comics. She could be both awesome and a fitting companion to the Joker if writers would let her be what she is- a villainess.

#3 Posted by Dracade102 (8126 posts) - - Show Bio
@tara_la_reine said:
" No, the character is most certainly not worthless. The Joker's run-ins with Hush and Jason are not related to Harley. What happens to him- and indeed all comic characters- is at the descretion of the writer. Because of who the Joker is, a great many writers choose to have their new characters have a run-in with him in attempts to "prove" how tough said characters are. Look back; the Joker as ostensibly had his butt kicked by lesser characters a lot. I like Morrison's Joker, but he's not the only writer to ably express the Joker's menace. The problem with Harley is that few writers have a clue as to how to write her. They tend to write her as purely comedic instead of exploring her wickedness. Truth is, they've been writing her as a heroine or anti-heroine for about as long as she's been in the mainstream comics. She could be both awesome and a fitting companion to the Joker if writers would let her be what she is- a villainess. "
Very well said.
#4 Posted by Mercy_ (91880 posts) - - Show Bio
@tara_la_reine
No, the character is most certainly not worthless. The Joker's run-ins with Hush and Jason are not related to Harley. What happens to him- and indeed all comic characters- is at the descretion of the writer. Because of who the Joker is, a great many writers choose to have their new characters have a run-in with him in attempts to "prove" how tough said characters are. Look back; the Joker as ostensibly had his butt kicked by lesser characters a lot. I like Morrison's Joker, but he's not the only writer to ably express the Joker's menace. The problem with Harley is that few writers have a clue as to how to write her. They tend to write her as purely comedic instead of exploring her wickedness. Truth is, they've been writing her as a heroine or anti-heroine for about as long as she's been in the mainstream comics. She could be both awesome and a fitting companion to the Joker if writers would let her be what she is- a villainess.
So much this.
Moderator
#5 Posted by SC (13368 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Harley more than Joker personally. I wish I could send her to Marvel. 

Moderator
#6 Posted by Oldirtybearon (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering she was created as a cheerleader for the Joker in a kids show, I wouldn't hold out much hope for writers taking her seriously. 
 
That said, I grew up watching said show, so it's kind of weird to think of her as anything but the Joker's wacky sidekick.

#7 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14833 posts) - - Show Bio

WOW thats kinda harsh blaming Harley for the reason Joker gets beat down, i mean he should get beat down by people like Hush and Jason as IIRC he doesn't (or we don't know that he does) have any combat training and only has a huge tolerance to pain, which after a while anyone would still pass out due to blood loss or something. Unless Harley was there for those fights and Joker was trying to save her and thats how he got his butt kicked i don't really see how, Harley had any real affect on Joker losing fights, he should lose. Really the only reason Joker should win a fight as far as i know is because he has prepared and laid the field with Booby traps.

#8 Posted by entropy_aegis (15443 posts) - - Show Bio
@tara_la_reine said:
"No, the character is most certainly not worthless. The Joker's run-ins with Hush and Jason are not related to Harley. What happens to him- and indeed all comic characters- is at the descretion of the writer. Because of who the Joker is, a great many writers choose to have their new characters have a run-in with him in attempts to "prove" how tough said characters are. Look back; the Joker as ostensibly had his butt kicked by lesser characters a lot. I like Morrison's Joker, but he's not the only writer to ably express the Joker's menace. The problem with Harley is that few writers have a clue as to how to write her. They tend to write her as purely comedic instead of exploring her wickedness. Truth is, they've been writing her as a heroine or anti-heroine for about as long as she's been in the mainstream comics. She could be both awesome and a fitting companion to the Joker if writers would let her be what she is- a villainess. "
Actually his run in with hush was related to harley being manipulated.Name a single writer whose joker can top morrisons post harley.So basically according to you harley should be written as you see fit ,not how she's being actually portrayed thus far in her career? 
sorry gonna have to do better than that,the fact is that she's relief in a deadpoolish manner ,and the joker suffers as a consequence.
@hydrabob said:
"WOW thats kinda harsh blaming Harley for the reason Joker gets beat down, i mean he should get beat down by people like Hush and Jason as IIRC he doesn't (or we don't know that he does) have any combat training and only has a huge tolerance to pain, which after a while anyone would still pass out due to blood loss or something. Unless Harley was there for those fights and Joker was trying to save her and thats how he got his butt kicked i don't really see how, Harley had any real affect on Joker losing fights, he should lose. Really the only reason Joker should win a fight as far as i know is because he has prepared and laid the field with Booby traps. "
Yes the fact he WAS'NT prepared for them is the problem,it became a joke to the writers ,he became a guy of comedy. (which brings us back to the point ,she was responsible for it)
the joker is'nt funny ,he only THINKS he is,grant's joker is the boss.
@SC said:
"I like Harley more than Joker personally. I wish I could send her to Marvel.  "

Yes please make it happen.
#9 Posted by Edamame (28384 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Harley Quinn.  She is so pleasant. 

#10 Posted by VillainousV (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

Harley worthless..........? NEVER..........!

#11 Posted by entropy_aegis (15443 posts) - - Show Bio
@VillainousV:
In relation with joker.
#12 Posted by ivy's creation (47 posts) - - Show Bio

to me what makes Harley's character and relationship with the joker is that she was once a psychiatrist whose job it was to make the joker sane, however he turned a respectable psychiatrist insane and his pet. There are many possibilities he keeps Harley around but one of the main reasons is to show the world what he can do to people no matter how 'sane' they seem to be.  

#13 Posted by Video_Martian (5562 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get why so many people nowadays claim to hate Harley Quinn... =P

#14 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@mr.obvious said:
"

I don't get why so many people nowadays claim to hate Harley Quinn... =P

"
Vocal minority
#15 Posted by Video_Martian (5562 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar: Yeah, but still... =P
#16 Posted by Dracade102 (8126 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" I like Harley more than Joker personally. I wish I could send her to Marvel.  "
You just won the internet for that.
#17 Posted by punchline (53 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker and Harley have taken different paths. Though it does seem that they have downplayed Harley a lot since her own series. This is a girl that had joker hanging from the emergency phone after blowing the bottom out of an elevator. She got kicked out of hell by none other then the devil and took on the martian manhunter while hopping from body to body.  Where is her giant pop gun. Where is the acrobatic woman who can take on batman and hold her own. Where is the Woman that went to metropolis with Joker while he had diplomatic immunity and went toe to toe with mercy and held her own. She is trained in psychiatry why is not among the select few that has figured out Batman's identity. It isn't like she would tell the Joker. He would kill her if she did. Not that he wouldn't kill her anyway if he got the chance. Not knowing who the Batman is Bruce Wayne is part of Jokers whole game. He doesn't care he just wants to cause havoc and destruction and prove to everyone that life is one big joke. I think that they are better both going on their own paths and there is room for both of them. I don't think they need each other. I think Harley has proven she can hold her own as a character. Joker has been around since the beginning. So he isn't going anywhere.

#18 Posted by blackcat_hull (11 posts) - - Show Bio

Harley isn't worthless, and she has shown in the past that she's a viable villainess in her own right. In Gotham City Sirens and her own comic series, she proves able to deal with both Batman, the Bat family and other heroes and villains, and come out on top. The fact thats she's a bit ditsy and an incurrable romantic makes her likebale, but I also thinks its a good counter-point when she does truly horrendous things. Love makes people do nasty things, and Harley is crazy about love.
 
The main problems is that she will always be linked to the Joker...after all he's the reason she's the way she is. I think that the time to be a romantic side-kick have passed, and that their relationship could be more mature...and even more dangerous. Joker may be darker without Harley, but he is meant to be a clown..not just some twisted psychpath, and Harley brings a bit of dark humour to the mix. 
 
so, either together or apart, Harley and Joker are great Batman characters, and not worthless.

#19 Posted by Omarpool (6760 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" I like Harley more than Joker personally. I wish I could send her to Marvel.  "
This. Where she would hook up with Deadpool. :P
#20 Posted by cosmo111687 (1463 posts) - - Show Bio

I really love the Joker/Harley dynamic. It's a clever commentary on the classic co-dependent/narcissistic relationship while also injecting some much needed humor in Gotham's otherwise intensely bleak universe. And I think that, from a creative stand-point, it's healthy to take multiple perspectives on Joker's character. The psychotic clown act has yielded brilliant tales, and nothing could be more fascinating that the inner-workings of Joker's twisted and brilliant mind, but it gets stale sometimes. It's nice to have Harley around to provide some levity and brighten the mood from time to time. 
 
Also, as a side-note: I've always had the sense that maybe part of the reason why Joker has Harley is to irk Batman . The most stable relationship Batman has with any woman is Catwoman, which is tenuous at best, and that's because he's too devoted to protecting Gotham and too concerned for the safety of those he loves. Joker, being the obsessive genius that is, can't have let the idea that Batman can't have a relationship slip past him. So he keeps Harley around in hopes of irking Batman because he couldn't care less for Harley's safety or for Gotham - and yet he's granted the most perfect relationship he could ask for while Batman gets nothing.

#21 Posted by Joygirl (19953 posts) - - Show Bio

No she's not.

...

<angry face>

#22 Posted by Saren (25088 posts) - - Show Bio

RIP Joker was so boss. But I've never been able to take Harley seriously.

Moderator
#23 Posted by entropy_aegis (15443 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

RIP Joker was so boss. But I've never been able to take Harley seriously.

Grant Morrison Joker as a whole was a boss and the first thing Grant did when he came on board was separate them.The 6 years from NML to Morrisons era may have been the worst era for the Joker ever.(the only good thing i recall was Brubakers Man who Laughs,which was an origin story.

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