Discussion time! Harley Quinn's new origin!

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#51 Posted by SupBatz (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

@dr_harlequin: I wasn't very bothered by the "I don't have many friends." line. But I suppose that's really a matter of opinion. I thought it added nicely to her interactions with the Joker and made a bit more sense of why she was falling for him.
Also, I don't think it took just one session to drive Harley insane. Her feelings for the Joker definitely originated during the sessions. But I like to think that she had more sessions with the Joker post-game that drove her to actually become Harley Quinn. The way I viewed it is that Origins just set the foundation and that the rest all happens in between Origins and Arkham Asylum.

Also, anyone who's interested in the scene to which we're referring in Arkham Origins, here's a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9akBjJZB29w

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#52 Edited by Dr_Harlequin (485 posts) - - Show Bio

@supbatz: But didn't she open his restraints at the end of their session? Isn't that how he got free at the second part in Blackgate? If so, that would make it seem incredible that she would do that after just one session, even if it were just a time for bonding.

Also, I always thought the premise was that a psychiatrist ended up falling in love with a loony, but when they make it so that the psychiatrist is already conflicted or has something wrong with her already, it kind of lessens the overall impact for me. I mean, I'm not going to say it didn't work for me, it was very emotional at the moment. But when I start to think about it, I don't really like that it was that easy or something...I don't know. You know what I'm sayin' right?

#53 Posted by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@dr_harlequin: True but to me it kind of sounded like the session jumped forward in time at one point. So, maybe their conversation was a lot longer than it seemed. Still seems kind of fast, but it helps a little.

#54 Edited by Dr_Harlequin (485 posts) - - Show Bio

@dctv3363: True. I just hope that if they expand on her story, they don't squeeze it into the same night as the main story, because that will be way too fast.

#55 Posted by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@dctv3363: True. I just hope that if expand on her story, they don't squeeze it into the same night as the main story, because that will be way too fast.

Definitely. Simple solution: Title Card that reads "Many months later" or something to a similar effect.

#56 Posted by The Stegman (25168 posts) - - Show Bio

The only problem I have with DCnU Harley is that her skin is bleached like Joker's. I always thought that Joker surviving the chemical bath was one in a million...guess now anyone can do it, plus, I'd rather her just wear make up that can be removed.

#57 Posted by Herokiller12344 (999 posts) - - Show Bio

Harleen is now presented as a good model student originated from NYC in the past whose been awarded honors, scholarships, the whole nine yards. She has also admitted that she has been a series of relationships possibly before the Joker came into her life so she is no stranger when it comes to love.

This Harleen is very different to the old Harleen in a lot of ways as she is very assertive and will not be afraid to defend herself if needed but also very professional and attempts to keep it strictly that way.

So in other words, she's a mean slut.

#58 Edited by Dr_Harlequin (485 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman said:

The only problem I have with DCnU Harley is that her skin is bleached like Joker's. I always thought that Joker surviving the chemical bath was one in a million...guess now anyone can do it, plus, I'd rather her just wear make up that can be removed.

Yes, the dip for Harley is a clone of the Joker's origin, from the "making her have a bad day at work" (If thinking of Glass' origin) to being turned into a "Jokerette." This just makes the Joker's origin seem less special.

I liked that she would have to put her make-up on. It shows how dedicated she is. Imagine having to put on clown make-up every day just to be like the one y'love. Plus, it showed that she was kinda normal when she took it off. (And she was really cute, too!)

@herokiller12344: >.> ...Where'd you pop that idea from?

#60 Posted by SiycoBat (157 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey guys! Finally got a proper holiday break for me and now I'm able to comment on the going-ons with Harley.

Wow...it looks like most of you REALLY missed the whole point to Harley's methods to her madness in Detective 23.2 but then again, I think some other people did so I'm gonna have to explain it to where the issue makes sense to you guys.

The reason why Harley did what she did in 23.2 is because she still has leftover feelings for the Joker (which was even commented on by Deadshot in the second-last page of the comic) and in the attempt to get his attention again, she decides to concoct a scheme fitting to the Joker's style in a major effort to please him again. As we all know and especially Harley, Joker does not discriminate when it comes to who or what he kills.

This scheme is parallel to the one she used in Mad Love to get rid of Batman to please the Joker, the only difference is that this scheme is more lethal and city-wide.

The biggest thing that you guys are forgetting is that Harley is a certified psychopath and has enabled and worshiped the Joker for decades on screen and in comics, even killing men and women for him to get his attention and love; what makes you guys think for a moment that kids are not part of the equation every time Joker decides to kill and grabs Harley to assist? Do you realize how many times we've seen Joker threaten to gas or kill the population in Gotham all these years? If Harley was able to assist Joker in mentally torturing a pre-teen Robin in the Batman Beyond movie in another attempt to get back at Batman, there really isn't much of a huge gap or effort for Joker to really manipulate and bait Harley to killing kids to prove her love to him in an effort to further control her.

Regardless of how you guys are chilled by the issue or not, her actions are consistent with her core character and just goes to re-illiterate again how dark and unhinged her love and obsession for the Joker really is.

#61 Edited by SupBatz (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

@siycobat: Nice to see you back. But I respectfully disagree with your comments about 'Tec 23.2.

There's no denying that Harley is a psychopath. Or that she is a villain. But that particular issue of Detective Comics, as well as most New 52 interpretations of Harley, read to me as another attempt to make Harley into a darker character. She is not the Joker. That is one of my favorite things about her. She is most certainly misguided and foolish and certifiably crazy. But she is not a maniacal sociopath who goes on psychotic, violent rampages killing anybody who crosses her path. 'Tec 23.2 was just one out of countless attempts in contemporary comics to make Harley into a "Joker-clone" of sorts. And while I have yet to read issue 1 of Harley's new series, the zero issue seemed to be following this same trend. Sure, most of the issue was just for fun and for laughs. But the sheer blood-lust and unbridled sexuality displayed by Harley throughout the issue was incredibly off-putting, to me, and just felt like a cheapening of a character that I once held very close to me.

As for the point that Harley was just trying to perform a scheme that was reminiscent of something the Joker might do, fine. I'll give you that as a sort of "softening the blow". But again, Harley is not the Joker. The two are very different sort of characters. To quote @punyparker:,
"Joker has no heart.....[Harley is] ALL heart." That is one of the great things about Harley. In as much as she and the Joker are similar, they are also incredibly different characters. And I do not, at all, appreciate recent attempts to turn Harley into a sexualized, blood-thirsty, female Joker.

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#62 Edited by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@siycobat said:

Hey guys! Finally got a proper holiday break for me and now I'm able to comment on the going-ons with Harley.

Wow...it looks like most of you REALLY missed the whole point to Harley's methods to her madness in Detective 23.2 but then again, I think some other people did so I'm gonna have to explain it to where the issue makes sense to you guys.

The reason why Harley did what she did in 23.2 is because she still has leftover feelings for the Joker (which was even commented on by Deadshot in the second-last page of the comic) and in the attempt to get his attention again, she decides to concoct a scheme fitting to the Joker's style in a major effort to please him again. As we all know and especially Harley, Joker does not discriminate when it comes to who or what he kills.

This scheme is parallel to the one she used in Mad Love to get rid of Batman to please the Joker, the only difference is that this scheme is more lethal and city-wide.

The biggest thing that you guys are forgetting is that Harley is a certified psychopath and has enabled and worshiped the Joker for decades on screen and in comics, even killing men and women for him to get his attention and love; what makes you guys think for a moment that kids are not part of the equation every time Joker decides to kill and grabs Harley to assist? Do you realize how many times we've seen Joker threaten to gas or kill the population in Gotham all these years? If Harley was able to assist Joker in mentally torturing a pre-teen Robin in the Batman Beyond movie in another attempt to get back at Batman, there really isn't much of a huge gap or effort for Joker to really manipulate and bait Harley to killing kids to prove her love to him in an effort to further control her.

Regardless of how you guys are chilled by the issue or not, her actions are consistent with her core character and just goes to re-illiterate again how dark and unhinged her love and obsession for the Joker really is.

I actually didn't have quite as much of a problem with the child killings as most seem to have (my biggest gripe with the issue was the "origin" story part) but you're kind of generalizing. I wouldn't say she's a psychopath (that wouldn't really make any sense given her character) but she is defiantly psychotic. Your whole BB/Robin argument doesn't really hold up. It does seem logical that if she would assist the Joker in doing something that terrible (and possibly help him do it) she probably wouldn't be above random child murder, but that's not necessarily true. To her there would be a difference. It's just not in her character to go out and do something like that for no reason (Your excuse that she was trying to get the Joker's attention could hold up but it's not the impression I got from reading the book so if that was the point it could defiantly have been presented more clearly.) It's not logical, but again, she's psychotic. Her actions weren't consistent with what I've seen of her psychosis. Now obviously I haven't read every book so you could prove me wrong on this one still, but just based on what I've seen this is my conclusion.

#63 Posted by sockman19 (63 posts) - - Show Bio

@siycobat: No offense but you sound like you are really generalizing Harley fans. I'm not very crazy about the character but I see why people like her. You sound like you're just reducing the things that people like about the character to: "Oh, you guys aren't able to let go of the past. You should move on and blindly accept whatever DC throws your way."

#64 Posted by PunyParker (12094 posts) - - Show Bio
#65 Edited by Dr_Harlequin (485 posts) - - Show Bio

@siycobat said:

Hey guys! Finally got a proper holiday break for me and now I'm able to comment on the going-ons with Harley.

Welcome back, I've been on holiday break too!

Wow...it looks like most of you REALLY missed the whole point to Harley's methods to her madness in Detective 23.2 but then again, I think some other people did so I'm gonna have to explain it to where the issue makes sense to you guys.

If you're only talking about justifying the ending of the comic, you're only covering a fraction of what was wrong with this issue IMO.

The reason why Harley did what she did in 23.2 is because she still has leftover feelings for the Joker (which was even commented on by Deadshot in the second-last page of the comic) and in the attempt to get his attention again, she decides to concoct a scheme fitting to the Joker's style in a major effort to please him again. As we all know and especially Harley, Joker does not discriminate when it comes to who or what he kills.

But I thought Harley was suppose to have some sort of moral compass? This issue seems to destroy that. I get what you're saying about the motivation for her crime. It makes sense she would try to reach out to Joker somehow. But like @dctv3363 said, I don't think it wasn't presented properly. It was implied by Deadshot, so they should've gave us something more to hook on to, y'know what I mean? Especially if it's something emotional for the character. I also feel like with all the thoughts Harley has about "being free to play and be crazy", you can't blame anyone for thinking she was doing this for herself.

E: And wasn't the Joker thought to be dead after DoTF?

This scheme is parallel to the one she used in Mad Love to get rid of Batman to please the Joker, the only difference is that this scheme is more lethal and city-wide.

I don't think this was paralleled to her scheme in Mad Love. I thought with the amount of destruction/terrorism and the fact that this issue came out on 9/11 that it, y'know, paralleled 9/11.

The biggest thing that you guys are forgetting is that Harley is a certified psychopath and has enabled and worshiped the Joker for decades on screen and in comics, even killing men and women for him to get his attention and love; what makes you guys think for a moment that kids are not part of the equation every time Joker decides to kill and grabs Harley to assist? Do you realize how many times we've seen Joker threaten to gas or kill the population in Gotham all these years? If Harley was able to assist Joker in mentally torturing a pre-teen Robin in the Batman Beyond movie in another attempt to get back at Batman, there really isn't much of a huge gap or effort for Joker to really manipulate and bait Harley to killing kids to prove her love to him in an effort to further control her.

In B:TAS (Harlequinade), she would fight Joker for trying to kill her friends (mainly her babies) in the process of destroying Gotham. You can argue, by saying she would have been fine with it if her friends wouldn't be in danger, but it shows she still wouldn't go all-in for the Joker, it shows some kind of morals and a difference between the two.

Regardless of how you guys are chilled by the issue or not, her actions are consistent with her core character and just goes to re-illiterate again how dark and unhinged her love and obsession for the Joker really is.

Yeah, but couldn't they have done something more appropriate on the anniversary of 9/11? And how many times do we have to see her hurt children? It was in BB: RoTJ, the Liebermann run in her solo series, and now this!

See the above in bold.

E: @punyparker: That and the little beaver who keeps calling her "fruitcakes."

#66 Posted by Dr_Harlequin (485 posts) - - Show Bio

Supposedly a new DLC for Arkham Origins is coming.

What do yuh think?

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