Unscripted: Justice League: Rise And Fall Special

#1 Posted by sora_thekey (8175 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't defend Ollie's actions but he did say he was never a true hero... 
Totally getting this!
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#2 Posted by thatlad (594 posts) - - Show Bio

I felt like ripping off Roy's arm & killing Lian was just a unnecessary means to getting Ollie to turn into a murderer. It doesn't feel like they've done it to develop Roy's character much as they've got him set up within a matter of weeks with a bionic arm. It just feels like it's been done for shock value (either that or to match up this Ollie with smallville's Ollie - he "murdered" Lex)
 
 I would like to see Ollie go this dark path as it would be interesting given how often he's been compared to batman, even though their paths have diverged greatly it could be a good juxtaposition of what could have happened Bruce went too far. 
 
The biggest gripe I have about this though is Ollie is such a big marquee name they wont send him down this path all the way. I'm just waiting for the awkwardly written retcon

#3 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

If GA is going Punisher style i'm all for it.

#4 Posted by Mbecks14 (2068 posts) - - Show Bio
@thatlad said:

" I felt like ripping off Roy's arm & killing Lian was just a unnecessary means to getting Ollie to turn into a murderer. It doesn't feel like they've done it to develop Roy's character much as they've got him set up within a matter of weeks with a bionic arm. It just feels like it's been done for shock value (either that or to match up this Ollie with smallville's Ollie - he "murdered" Lex)  I would like to see Ollie go this dark path as it would be interesting given how often he's been compared to batman, even though their paths have diverged greatly it could be a good juxtaposition of what could have happened Bruce went too far.  The biggest gripe I have about this though is Ollie is such a big marquee name they wont send him down this path all the way. I'm just waiting for the awkwardly written retcon "

I totally agree. Especially with what i bolded

 Horrible defecation on the character of Green Arrow.  "Never a hero, a hunter" bull. they're just adding this stuff to justify the new characterization. Heroes don't kill. James Robinson's Cry for Justice should've been taken out of continuity and forgotten.
 
I Disapprove.
#5 Posted by cadaver (143 posts) - - Show Bio

come on, you can't seriously compare GA to punisher. GA has killed before when his loved ones have been attacked. quite simply he is a killer, can and will kill when the line is crossed. He was against lobotomizing villains, surprised no one brought that up. I'm a big fan of GA, though the latest title is turning to crap, maybe now they will have something to write about to make it good again.  If memory serves last time GA went dark he ended up sacrificing himself on a plane. The guy is a hero.  I think I saw Cyborg working on a prosthetic limb for Roy in the back ground of one of the panels, but I guess that's no shocker either. Red arrow is going cyber...

#6 Posted by SqueeMun (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with Cadaver. This is who GA is. And not to mention, yes he is a hero. But he's also human. With emotions. His son was maimed, his grand-daughter killed, his city destroyed. He got revenge. Plain and simple. Most grandfathers/fathers would have done the same thing in his shoes.
 
So, Bravo Ollie. 
 
BTW, I loved Cry for Justice, and i'm a huge Roy Harper fan :)

#7 Posted by thechessclub (503 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't believe neither of you touched on the fact that the artist changed halfway through the issue=P

#8 Posted by greenenvy (634 posts) - - Show Bio

I love how this is going with green arrow! Here you have a DYNAMIC  character who does not always have to be a superhero but also  the VIGILANTE ARCHER. Guys hello this is making him go back to his ROOTS as NATURAL  real life HUNTER rather than a silly robin hood slash superman prototype. Let him kill and screw it all because it was the right damn choice at the moment. However there is still a limit for me such as I don't want him completely like the punisher but when is the right time to kill, IT WONT BOTHER HIM TO TAKE THE SHOT ONCE IN A WHILE. 

#9 Posted by GraveSp (318 posts) - - Show Bio

If you think about it you can't really charge Ollie with murder, he killed someone in a different dimension so there isn't really any jurisdiction.  

#10 Posted by lostlantern13 (860 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mbecks14: I don't think it's brand new stuff, just rarely referenced stuff like Mike Grell's The Longbow Hunters. I do agree that this'll probably be retcon'd out one day in the future...longer if this characterization takes, sooner if it flops in sales.
 
@thechessclub:
  The artist changes 2 times. There's 3 guys on the book. 
 
 In general, my big problem with the issue came with the mishandling of Hal and Barry. Barry, despite his reasons, comes off as a hypocrticial jerk. Leave the morality to Superman. Hal was driven insane by the destruction of Coast City. Instead of consoling one of his best friends, he really didn't do anything for Ollie. It felt like an extremely forced divide to the Justice League. I won't be quick to judge if Oliver's actions are being forced for shock or not...I'll wait to see if this pays off.
#11 Posted by strangeling (180 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't remember it very well, but you may want to see if you can find and read the Longbow Hunters.  This isn't really something new for Ollie.

#12 Posted by mrrpm01 (199 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that Ollie has always been at war with himself.  At one time he was a "give peace a chance" hero, then he became a "jail is just a revolving door" hero and now he is more along the line of  a wolverine lite "great taste (in women) less killing".  His switch to me was nothing more then DC evolving characters example Wally coming into his own with speedforce, Kal-el moving to new Krypton and Hal finally stepping up in his Gl role.  While I don't totally agree with his actions I understand.  How long can you see a supervillian go in and out of the system and see them thumb their nose at you and then turn around and hurt you where they know will hurt you most?  Ask yourself if it was you what would you do and how far would you go.

#13 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio

That book was ight but Ollie killing Prometheus just pisses me off

#14 Edited by Secret Identity (223 posts) - - Show Bio

Really enjoyed this issue. I haven't read Cry For Justice yet (buying the tpb when it comes out) but i've been following little bits and pieces of the story through the DC blog and the Vine. I have to say I can't wait for the Rise of Arsenal 4 part mini and the Fall of Green Arrow. I have always been a GA fan but the GA/Bc book has been really pants. Killing off GA's rouges gallery? Destroying Connor Hawke? Almost destroying GA and BC's marriage in less than a year? All pretty crap as far as i'm concerned. 
 
So, yeah. I'm liking this little shake up. This doesn't seem like a huge stretch for the character. As you rightly say it is one step further than he's been before. This was premeditated whereas his last killing was one of consequence. (He found BC tied up and being tortured (with the possible intention of rape(I forget exactly))) and then put an arrow through the guy's back in a rage. He's still in a rage but it doesn't seem out of character. It has been well established that what really gets to GA is attacking his City and his loved ones. Last time this happened (star city being destroyed) only about a 3rd of the city went down and no one close to him was killed. Also he wasn't left in a fit state to do anything about it. This time his entire city has gone down and his loved ones have been disfigured/killed. It doesn't seem like a stretch for Ollie to react this way. I do hope this isn't going to make GA into the DC Punisher though. That, I feel, would be taking it a little too far.
 
I'm a huge GA fan and this is definitely a step over the line he's teetered on(or close to) for years. Doesn't seem out of character to me. 
 
I have three main questions about this whole thing: 

  • What will Green Arrow do and how far will he go? 
  • What will Roy Harper do, will he support Ollie's decision to take a life and will he be an archer/marksman again? What will his reaction to all this be?
AND 
  • What the hell is going on with Connor Hawke? How much of his memory does he have back? Does he still have his healing factor? Is he still an Zen-Buddhist? What will he think of his farther's decision to take a life and will he be an archer again or just stick with the throwing stars and martial arts skills? 
 
I for one can't wait to see how this goes.
#15 Posted by Green ankh (998 posts) - - Show Bio

I like this issue. TO have a "hero" who we really don't know what he is going to do is very cool.  With Punisher you know he is going to kill. It is just what crazt way is he going to do it.  With GA now its a will he or won't he.
#16 Posted by thatlad (594 posts) - - Show Bio
@Secret Identity said:
  • What will Roy Harper do, will he support Ollie's decision to take a life and will he be an archer/marksman again? What will his reaction to all this be?
I'm thinking that Roy wont be on board, after all "rise of arsenal" implies he's changing his name again. Could he be abandoning the Red Arrow name as Ollie has tainted it? Maybe this is DC's way of pushing Roy to being a major player. Although I don't think they had to rip off his arm and create winter soldier mark 2 
#17 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio

If Oliver killed someone just for torturing Black Canary then imagine what he would do with his granddaughter killed and city destroyed. And I think it is pretty cliche' to put a strain on Green Arrow and Black Canary's relationship since he did come back to life for her. 
 
List of JLA members who killed 
Hal Jordan 
Barry Allen 
Wonder Woman 
Huntress 
 So the JLA should not be the first to cast sones but they will because it is more dramatic.

#18 Posted by TheGhostofGarethGraves (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, I feel like it's him more going on a defensive/protective streak than a murderous offensive. His family was torn apart (forgive the pun), and his city, his livelihood, destroyed. Given his history (thanks to Grell), this really isn't new water we're treading in. It's just more out there because he's been on the backburner, so to speak, for a couple of years now. I also feel like his marraige to Dinah needs the happiness put back, because this angsty drama they've been living in is really just rehashing the past to the point of BLEH. I think Mia and Connor REALLY need to be highlighted more within the family, and utilized more throughout the DCU. Put Speedy back with the Titans, and fix that book. Give Connor more of a GA role in the reconstruction of the city, and let Dinah help Ollie grieve. Roy, well, I think we all knew he was going to get a cybernetic arm (especially with Cyborg being one of his friends), and the loss of Lian was quite a blow (I know I'll miss her) and him going ballistic in mourning kind of makes sense to me. I really can't wait to see how Cheshire reacts and the resolution of this character's arc, because he's one of the finest examples of a human hero out there, wether the writing has been good or not.

#19 Posted by Theodore (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't mind this issue, thought it was pretty good. I'm really excited to see where they go with it. I've always liked GA and I think he has always been on the brink of wanting to kill villains for terrible things they've done and the destruction of his city and pain caused on his loved ones has just pushed him over there edge. It makes sense to me.

#20 Posted by goldenkey (2927 posts) - - Show Bio

I bet all of us are wondering how some of the artists and writers names are pronounced maye you can do some research on that.  I like Promethius, it was one of the better characters I felt Morrison did in JLA,  I haven't read anything else other then when he was in Batman, where I felt the character would end up, and they didn't do him well there at all, (but then it was really him).  I felt he was a hell of a lot more dangerous then Hush is, and with all the fighting technigues he can down load he should have beat the fell out of Hush.
#21 Posted by Joey Ravn (385 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest, and while I admit that maiming Roy and killing Lian was a... controversial move, I absolutely adore how Green Arrow was portrayed in this one-shot. He never was the same kind of hero as Superman or Batman. Yes, he obviously struggled to better himself in the name of good, but he was much more human than most other heroes. And after everything he went through in Cry for Justice, let's face it, most of us would have done the same. Seeing your city destroyed, with bodies by the hundred thousands, someone you considered your son without an arm and your granddaughter dead... He's human, after all.

#22 Posted by SUPER-MAN 23 (2067 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe Oliver needs to be locked up in arkham and let a new hero have his territory. Or maybe he should simply become a villain so that the justice league can stop him. I don't know.   

#23 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@SUPER-MAN 23:  
If the league arrested one member of the League for killing someone then half the heroes in the DCU would be arrested.
#24 Posted by AMP - Seeker of Lost Knowledge (1221 posts) - - Show Bio

 If I had to say about the situation here....its like DC is borrowing Smallville'S Season 9 plot for THEIR Green Arrow, after he killed Lex Luthor and was responsible for Jimmy's death (from Davis Bloome/DOOMSDAY), he starts to fall apart. It's also like how Anakin Skywalker turning over to the Dark Side...and turning him into something worse. That is what it kinda sounds like to me....Let alone GA turning into his counterpart, the dark archer called Merlyn......I sense that he'll mentor Ollie to be a killer for life.....if possible..........

#25 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@AMP - Seeker of Lost Knowledge: @AMP - Seeker of Lost Knowledge said:
"  If I had to say about the situation here....its like DC is borrowing Smallville'S Season 9 plot for THEIR Green Arrow, after he killed Lex Luthor and was responsible for Jimmy's death (from Davis Bloome/DOOMSDAY), he starts to fall apart. It's also like how Anakin Skywalker turning over to the Dark Side...and turning him into something worse. That is what it kinda sounds like to me....Let alone GA turning into his counterpart, the dark archer called Merlyn......I sense that he'll mentor Ollie to be a killer for life.....if possible.......... "
 
 
As some fans have said Oliver has displayed this behavior like he did in the Mike Grell run that was part of the imprint that became Vertigo.
#26 Posted by Quest (108 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a big GA fan i think he will go crazy for a littl while and i agree wit he he is only human promethus did destroy of ollie's home city and roy is like a sone to ollie so i yndetstand where he is comeing from
#27 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it was a great idea.
 
Not all superheroes are morally sound as Superman, and some people don't see killing as wrong and it's great to finally see a superhero pushed to the brink and ACTUALLY execute killing. It's every other arc, it seems where a hero is pushed too far and still takes the "moral high ground" and spares a villain from death. Batman with the Joker on numerous occasions, Spider-Man with the Green Goblin, Superman with Lex Luthor. These people push these heroes past a point where killing them is the only rational human response and they STILL spare them.
 
Green Arrow isn't Superman and his morals don't line up with some of the other heroes, that was one of the key points behind Cry for Justice, that was what was touched on throughout the series--how Green Lantern and Green Arrow were tired of waiting for the villains to do bad, tired of treating villains like humans--they even resorted to torturing people during interrogations, these are things that people either view as morally wrong or are on the fence about, and it may be tough to swallow but it's honestly an interesting concept, I think.
 
I don't think this means Green Arrow is going to kill every villain he comes across now, no. I don't even think he was really wrong in what he did.

#28 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4807 posts) - - Show Bio

mmmm... Wasnt HAwkeye... i mean CLint BArton that Great Archer... pushed to a limit where he wanted to Kill Norman Osborn... and he tried to(Dark Reign: The List-Avengers)... even tho for years Clint always said it wasnt cool to kill people... not even the doode that raped his wife...
 
now Ollie that Green Wearing Archer was pushed to that same limit... Mmmmmmm... interesting
 
"IM all for them breaking up"
 
Dam another Super hero couple that Babs doesnt like
Dick and BArb
Reed and Sue
Wasp and Wasp(hehehehe) Pym and Pym(hehehhe). Hank and Jan
now  Ollie and Canary

#29 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio

pretty good book.
decent pacing and good sharp art.. worth the read.

#30 Posted by Lissbirds (48 posts) - - Show Bio

This is just more of the angsty Identity Crisis-type "gritty" stories that are dragging down DC.  The characters in Cry for Justice are so mis-chararacterized, the violence is so gratituitous and the plot was convoluted.  G-Man, how could you like that last issue?

#31 Posted by sector2813 (2 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mbecks14:  wolverine has killed is he not a hero? Wonder Woman killed,Superman killed (doomsday) as far as i'm concerned Ollie acted retroactively. Do you honestly think Prometheus was going to stop, he was just going to do it again. Ollie was the only one to realize that and took the action that was necessary.
#32 Posted by Mbecks14 (2068 posts) - - Show Bio
@sector2813 said:
" @Mbecks14:  wolverine has killed is he not a hero? Wonder Woman killed,Superman killed (doomsday) as far as i'm concerned Ollie acted retroactively. Do you honestly think Prometheus was going to stop, he was just going to do it again. Ollie was the only one to realize that and took the action that was necessary. "
Wolverine is a totally different character. Wonder Woman killed in order to save Superman from Max's control. and Superman killing doomsday hardly counts because he died too and doomsday is a monster, not a human being.
 
Ollie acted out of line, he committed MURDER. WW and Superman's can be counted as self defense or defense of a "family member". Ollie hunted him down and killed him. He could have incapacitated him and put him in jail.
#33 Posted by sector2813 (2 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mbecks14:  taking wolverine out of the equation is not acceptable he has killed humans before. Ollie could not take him to jail cause if that was possible don't you think the league would have done it? Ollie acted in  defense of Star city and of all the other people Prometheus would have killed, cause you know he would have.
#34 Edited by Mbecks14 (2068 posts) - - Show Bio
@sector2813 said:

" @Mbecks14:  taking wolverine out of the equation is not acceptable he has killed humans before. Ollie could not take him to jail cause if that was possible don't you think the league would have done it? Ollie acted in  defense of Star city and of all the other people Prometheus would have killed, cause you know he would have. "

Wolverine has always been an anti-hero and killing is his thing. Green Arrow is a totally different 
character. Ollie could've taken him to jail easily.  The league would have done it if they had caught him in time.  Defending Star City is one thing, and killing him is another. i'm not defending prometheus's actions i'm criticizing Ollie's.
#35 Posted by FLStyle (368 posts) - - Show Bio

If they're serious about his character then make him a Rorschach-esque anti-hero, I'd love to see the confrontations that would cause.

#36 Edited by brc2000 (1679 posts) - - Show Bio


@iLLituracy said:
" I think it was a great idea. Not all superheroes are morally sound as Superman, and some people don't see killing as wrong and it's great to finally see a superhero pushed to the brink and ACTUALLY execute killing. It's every other arc, it seems where a hero is pushed too far and still takes the "moral high ground" and spares a villain from death. Batman with the Joker on numerous occasions, Spider-Man with the Green Goblin, Superman with Lex Luthor. These people push these heroes past a point where killing them is the only rational human response and they STILL spare them.  "

 
Agreed, 100%. People always complain about DC characters being too unrealistic in their actions, and now there are people are complaining about it.
 
#37 Posted by LB70145 (193 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mbecks14: I agree, Killing Prometheus is not the same as defending Star City. Preventing evil is also not the same as doing good.
#38 Posted by The Hottness (4226 posts) - - Show Bio

This is SOOOOOO badass
#39 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

i thin green arrow is one of the deepest comic heros in history.......he provides a constant contrast to the league hes not as simple as a light and dark superman and batman hes a 3 rd level of contrast. hes a reality check for the league and this is the best example of it. He did was SHOULD be done this prothemus guy for all intentions WON hands down he straight up defeated the league no despute he killed thousands hurt all heroes and got off scott free.......till GA put that arrow in his brain! this had to be done.......look at final crisis the best part of that crap fest is batman pulling the trigger and KILLING dark fart......then he goes out in a blaze of glory superman hold batmans FRIED body and only looks mad? thats right its freaking BATMAN FRIED and all big blue does is look angry? he sits there and listens............LISTENS to dark fart ramble on and on while THE BATMAN is fried dead in his arms!!!!!!!!!!! now if ollie had supermans powers he would have take darkseeds head clear off and spared him the slow death batman put him on. 
the point is that this type of thing needs to be done and this story was really good. 
 
I would not turn ollie evil but keep him as a rouge
#40 Posted by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 
 
I can't lie I'm happy  about this new twist, I'm sorry but when I think arrows I think  serious.  i can't take somebody running around with arrows tipped with boxing gloves seriousely I mean come on.  Trick Arrows I get, but I prefer the kind that blow up like Rambo.  This guy was turning out to be a Star City Batman, only differences were the arrows and batarangs.  The moment when Ollie killed Promethius is the moment that set the two apart, making ollie a human and a more believable character.  This guy  is a bad ass trapped in a Robin Hood/Peter Pan Paradox, he knows lethal arts so it's time to put the kiddie arrows away!

#41 Posted by ChaseCrawler (2 posts) - - Show Bio
One of the best story lines in the DCverse right now. Hands down. 
I can't wait to see how Green Arrow reacts to his decision to kill and how the Justice League decide how to deal with him.
#42 Posted by Subject 30 (205 posts) - - Show Bio

I think as he says himself, He's a hunter, not a hero.

#43 Posted by ImperiousRix (1069 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely a return to the more brutal Longbow Hunters Ollie.  Don't know how to feel about that, but still... 
I'm with Ollie through whatever he goes through.

#44 Posted by Grimoire (543 posts) - - Show Bio

I agreed with what GA did. After reading cry for justice and seeing what happened I don't see how he can be blamed for it. The bad guy getting turned into the cops wouldn't help and neither would the possible thousands of possible deaths if and when he gets out would work too. The Flash tried to act self righteous and GA mentioned him breaking the neck of his enemy to get the my family was in imminent danger routine and all I could think of was "Okay it is different. If I was there in front of Prometheus when he was destroying the city then I can kill him?" or "The situations are different flash. I mean you were suppose to let your enemy kill your family before you could kill him like me." lol

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