Unscripted: Justice League: Rise And Fall Special
I felt like ripping off Roy's arm & killing Lian was just a unnecessary means to getting Ollie to turn into a murderer. It doesn't feel like they've done it to develop Roy's character much as they've got him set up within a matter of weeks with a bionic arm. It just feels like it's been done for shock value (either that or to match up this Ollie with smallville's Ollie - he "murdered" Lex)
I would like to see Ollie go this dark path as it would be interesting given how often he's been compared to batman, even though their paths have diverged greatly it could be a good juxtaposition of what could have happened Bruce went too far.
The biggest gripe I have about this though is Ollie is such a big marquee name they wont send him down this path all the way. I'm just waiting for the awkwardly written retcon
I totally agree. Especially with what i bolded
" I felt like ripping off Roy's arm & killing Lian was just a unnecessary means to getting Ollie to turn into a murderer. It doesn't feel like they've done it to develop Roy's character much as they've got him set up within a matter of weeks with a bionic arm. It just feels like it's been done for shock value (either that or to match up this Ollie with smallville's Ollie - he "murdered" Lex) I would like to see Ollie go this dark path as it would be interesting given how often he's been compared to batman, even though their paths have diverged greatly it could be a good juxtaposition of what could have happened Bruce went too far. The biggest gripe I have about this though is Ollie is such a big marquee name they wont send him down this path all the way. I'm just waiting for the awkwardly written retcon "
Horrible defecation on the character of Green Arrow. "Never a hero, a hunter" bull. they're just adding this stuff to justify the new characterization. Heroes don't kill. James Robinson's Cry for Justice should've been taken out of continuity and forgotten.
come on, you can't seriously compare GA to punisher. GA has killed before when his loved ones have been attacked. quite simply he is a killer, can and will kill when the line is crossed. He was against lobotomizing villains, surprised no one brought that up. I'm a big fan of GA, though the latest title is turning to crap, maybe now they will have something to write about to make it good again. If memory serves last time GA went dark he ended up sacrificing himself on a plane. The guy is a hero. I think I saw Cyborg working on a prosthetic limb for Roy in the back ground of one of the panels, but I guess that's no shocker either. Red arrow is going cyber...
I agree with Cadaver. This is who GA is. And not to mention, yes he is a hero. But he's also human. With emotions. His son was maimed, his grand-daughter killed, his city destroyed. He got revenge. Plain and simple. Most grandfathers/fathers would have done the same thing in his shoes.
So, Bravo Ollie.
BTW, I loved Cry for Justice, and i'm a huge Roy Harper fan :)
I love how this is going with green arrow! Here you have a DYNAMIC character who does not always have to be a superhero but also the VIGILANTE ARCHER. Guys hello this is making him go back to his ROOTS as NATURAL real life HUNTER rather than a silly robin hood slash superman prototype. Let him kill and screw it all because it was the right damn choice at the moment. However there is still a limit for me such as I don't want him completely like the punisher but when is the right time to kill, IT WONT BOTHER HIM TO TAKE THE SHOT ONCE IN A WHILE.
@thechessclub: The artist changes 2 times. There's 3 guys on the book.
In general, my big problem with the issue came with the mishandling of Hal and Barry. Barry, despite his reasons, comes off as a hypocrticial jerk. Leave the morality to Superman. Hal was driven insane by the destruction of Coast City. Instead of consoling one of his best friends, he really didn't do anything for Ollie. It felt like an extremely forced divide to the Justice League. I won't be quick to judge if Oliver's actions are being forced for shock or not...I'll wait to see if this pays off.
I think that Ollie has always been at war with himself. At one time he was a "give peace a chance" hero, then he became a "jail is just a revolving door" hero and now he is more along the line of a wolverine lite "great taste (in women) less killing". His switch to me was nothing more then DC evolving characters example Wally coming into his own with speedforce, Kal-el moving to new Krypton and Hal finally stepping up in his Gl role. While I don't totally agree with his actions I understand. How long can you see a supervillian go in and out of the system and see them thumb their nose at you and then turn around and hurt you where they know will hurt you most? Ask yourself if it was you what would you do and how far would you go.
Really enjoyed this issue. I haven't read Cry For Justice yet (buying the tpb when it comes out) but i've been following little bits and pieces of the story through the DC blog and the Vine. I have to say I can't wait for the Rise of Arsenal 4 part mini and the Fall of Green Arrow. I have always been a GA fan but the GA/Bc book has been really pants. Killing off GA's rouges gallery? Destroying Connor Hawke? Almost destroying GA and BC's marriage in less than a year? All pretty crap as far as i'm concerned.
So, yeah. I'm liking this little shake up. This doesn't seem like a huge stretch for the character. As you rightly say it is one step further than he's been before. This was premeditated whereas his last killing was one of consequence. (He found BC tied up and being tortured (with the possible intention of rape(I forget exactly))) and then put an arrow through the guy's back in a rage. He's still in a rage but it doesn't seem out of character. It has been well established that what really gets to GA is attacking his City and his loved ones. Last time this happened (star city being destroyed) only about a 3rd of the city went down and no one close to him was killed. Also he wasn't left in a fit state to do anything about it. This time his entire city has gone down and his loved ones have been disfigured/killed. It doesn't seem like a stretch for Ollie to react this way. I do hope this isn't going to make GA into the DC Punisher though. That, I feel, would be taking it a little too far.
I'm a huge GA fan and this is definitely a step over the line he's teetered on(or close to) for years. Doesn't seem out of character to me.
I have three main questions about this whole thing:
- What will Green Arrow do and how far will he go?
- What will Roy Harper do, will he support Ollie's decision to take a life and will he be an archer/marksman again? What will his reaction to all this be?
- What the hell is going on with Connor Hawke? How much of his memory does he have back? Does he still have his healing factor? Is he still an Zen-Buddhist? What will he think of his farther's decision to take a life and will he be an archer again or just stick with the throwing stars and martial arts skills?
I for one can't wait to see how this goes.
I like this issue. TO have a "hero" who we really don't know what he is going to do is very cool. With Punisher you know he is going to kill. It is just what crazt way is he going to do it. With GA now its a will he or won't he.
I'm thinking that Roy wont be on board, after all "rise of arsenal" implies he's changing his name again. Could he be abandoning the Red Arrow name as Ollie has tainted it? Maybe this is DC's way of pushing Roy to being a major player. Although I don't think they had to rip off his arm and create winter soldier mark 2
- What will Roy Harper do, will he support Ollie's decision to take a life and will he be an archer/marksman again? What will his reaction to all this be?
If Oliver killed someone just for torturing Black Canary then imagine what he would do with his granddaughter killed and city destroyed. And I think it is pretty cliche' to put a strain on Green Arrow and Black Canary's relationship since he did come back to life for her.
List of JLA members who killed
So the JLA should not be the first to cast sones but they will because it is more dramatic.
Honestly, I feel like it's him more going on a defensive/protective streak than a murderous offensive. His family was torn apart (forgive the pun), and his city, his livelihood, destroyed. Given his history (thanks to Grell), this really isn't new water we're treading in. It's just more out there because he's been on the backburner, so to speak, for a couple of years now. I also feel like his marraige to Dinah needs the happiness put back, because this angsty drama they've been living in is really just rehashing the past to the point of BLEH. I think Mia and Connor REALLY need to be highlighted more within the family, and utilized more throughout the DCU. Put Speedy back with the Titans, and fix that book. Give Connor more of a GA role in the reconstruction of the city, and let Dinah help Ollie grieve. Roy, well, I think we all knew he was going to get a cybernetic arm (especially with Cyborg being one of his friends), and the loss of Lian was quite a blow (I know I'll miss her) and him going ballistic in mourning kind of makes sense to me. I really can't wait to see how Cheshire reacts and the resolution of this character's arc, because he's one of the finest examples of a human hero out there, wether the writing has been good or not.
I didn't mind this issue, thought it was pretty good. I'm really excited to see where they go with it. I've always liked GA and I think he has always been on the brink of wanting to kill villains for terrible things they've done and the destruction of his city and pain caused on his loved ones has just pushed him over there edge. It makes sense to me.
I bet all of us are wondering how some of the artists and writers names are pronounced maye you can do some research on that. I like Promethius, it was one of the better characters I felt Morrison did in JLA, I haven't read anything else other then when he was in Batman, where I felt the character would end up, and they didn't do him well there at all, (but then it was really him). I felt he was a hell of a lot more dangerous then Hush is, and with all the fighting technigues he can down load he should have beat the fell out of Hush.
To be honest, and while I admit that maiming Roy and killing Lian was a... controversial move, I absolutely adore how Green Arrow was portrayed in this one-shot. He never was the same kind of hero as Superman or Batman. Yes, he obviously struggled to better himself in the name of good, but he was much more human than most other heroes. And after everything he went through in Cry for Justice, let's face it, most of us would have done the same. Seeing your city destroyed, with bodies by the hundred thousands, someone you considered your son without an arm and your granddaughter dead... He's human, after all.
If I had to say about the situation here....its like DC is borrowing Smallville'S Season 9 plot for THEIR Green Arrow, after he killed Lex Luthor and was responsible for Jimmy's death (from Davis Bloome/DOOMSDAY), he starts to fall apart. It's also like how Anakin Skywalker turning over to the Dark Side...and turning him into something worse. That is what it kinda sounds like to me....Let alone GA turning into his counterpart, the dark archer called Merlyn......I sense that he'll mentor Ollie to be a killer for life.....if possible..........
" If I had to say about the situation here....its like DC is borrowing Smallville'S Season 9 plot for THEIR Green Arrow, after he killed Lex Luthor and was responsible for Jimmy's death (from Davis Bloome/DOOMSDAY), he starts to fall apart. It's also like how Anakin Skywalker turning over to the Dark Side...and turning him into something worse. That is what it kinda sounds like to me....Let alone GA turning into his counterpart, the dark archer called Merlyn......I sense that he'll mentor Ollie to be a killer for life.....if possible.......... "
As some fans have said Oliver has displayed this behavior like he did in the Mike Grell run that was part of the imprint that became Vertigo.
I think it was a great idea.
Not all superheroes are morally sound as Superman, and some people don't see killing as wrong and it's great to finally see a superhero pushed to the brink and ACTUALLY execute killing. It's every other arc, it seems where a hero is pushed too far and still takes the "moral high ground" and spares a villain from death. Batman with the Joker on numerous occasions, Spider-Man with the Green Goblin, Superman with Lex Luthor. These people push these heroes past a point where killing them is the only rational human response and they STILL spare them.
Green Arrow isn't Superman and his morals don't line up with some of the other heroes, that was one of the key points behind Cry for Justice, that was what was touched on throughout the series--how Green Lantern and Green Arrow were tired of waiting for the villains to do bad, tired of treating villains like humans--they even resorted to torturing people during interrogations, these are things that people either view as morally wrong or are on the fence about, and it may be tough to swallow but it's honestly an interesting concept, I think.
I don't think this means Green Arrow is going to kill every villain he comes across now, no. I don't even think he was really wrong in what he did.
mmmm... Wasnt HAwkeye... i mean CLint BArton that Great Archer... pushed to a limit where he wanted to Kill Norman Osborn... and he tried to(Dark Reign: The List-Avengers)... even tho for years Clint always said it wasnt cool to kill people... not even the doode that raped his wife...
now Ollie that Green Wearing Archer was pushed to that same limit... Mmmmmmm... interesting
"IM all for them breaking up"
Dam another Super hero couple that Babs doesnt like
Dick and BArb
Reed and Sue
Wasp and Wasp(hehehehe) Pym and Pym(hehehhe). Hank and Jan
now Ollie and Canary
This is just more of the angsty Identity Crisis-type "gritty" stories that are dragging down DC. The characters in Cry for Justice are so mis-chararacterized, the violence is so gratituitous and the plot was convoluted. G-Man, how could you like that last issue?
" @Mbecks14: wolverine has killed is he not a hero? Wonder Woman killed,Superman killed (doomsday) as far as i'm concerned Ollie acted retroactively. Do you honestly think Prometheus was going to stop, he was just going to do it again. Ollie was the only one to realize that and took the action that was necessary. "Wolverine is a totally different character. Wonder Woman killed in order to save Superman from Max's control. and Superman killing doomsday hardly counts because he died too and doomsday is a monster, not a human being.
Ollie acted out of line, he committed MURDER. WW and Superman's can be counted as self defense or defense of a "family member". Ollie hunted him down and killed him. He could have incapacitated him and put him in jail.
Wolverine has always been an anti-hero and killing is his thing. Green Arrow is a totally different
" @Mbecks14: taking wolverine out of the equation is not acceptable he has killed humans before. Ollie could not take him to jail cause if that was possible don't you think the league would have done it? Ollie acted in defense of Star city and of all the other people Prometheus would have killed, cause you know he would have. "
character. Ollie could've taken him to jail easily. The league would have done it if they had caught him in time. Defending Star City is one thing, and killing him is another. i'm not defending prometheus's actions i'm criticizing Ollie's.
" I think it was a great idea. Not all superheroes are morally sound as Superman, and some people don't see killing as wrong and it's great to finally see a superhero pushed to the brink and ACTUALLY execute killing. It's every other arc, it seems where a hero is pushed too far and still takes the "moral high ground" and spares a villain from death. Batman with the Joker on numerous occasions, Spider-Man with the Green Goblin, Superman with Lex Luthor. These people push these heroes past a point where killing them is the only rational human response and they STILL spare them. "
Agreed, 100%. People always complain about DC characters being too unrealistic in their actions, and now there are people are complaining about it.
i thin green arrow is one of the deepest comic heros in history.......he provides a constant contrast to the league hes not as simple as a light and dark superman and batman hes a 3 rd level of contrast. hes a reality check for the league and this is the best example of it. He did was SHOULD be done this prothemus guy for all intentions WON hands down he straight up defeated the league no despute he killed thousands hurt all heroes and got off scott free.......till GA put that arrow in his brain! this had to be done.......look at final crisis the best part of that crap fest is batman pulling the trigger and KILLING dark fart......then he goes out in a blaze of glory superman hold batmans FRIED body and only looks mad? thats right its freaking BATMAN FRIED and all big blue does is look angry? he sits there and listens............LISTENS to dark fart ramble on and on while THE BATMAN is fried dead in his arms!!!!!!!!!!! now if ollie had supermans powers he would have take darkseeds head clear off and spared him the slow death batman put him on.
the point is that this type of thing needs to be done and this story was really good.
I would not turn ollie evil but keep him as a rouge
I can't lie I'm happy about this new twist, I'm sorry but when I think arrows I think serious. i can't take somebody running around with arrows tipped with boxing gloves seriousely I mean come on. Trick Arrows I get, but I prefer the kind that blow up like Rambo. This guy was turning out to be a Star City Batman, only differences were the arrows and batarangs. The moment when Ollie killed Promethius is the moment that set the two apart, making ollie a human and a more believable character. This guy is a bad ass trapped in a Robin Hood/Peter Pan Paradox, he knows lethal arts so it's time to put the kiddie arrows away!
I agreed with what GA did. After reading cry for justice and seeing what happened I don't see how he can be blamed for it. The bad guy getting turned into the cops wouldn't help and neither would the possible thousands of possible deaths if and when he gets out would work too. The Flash tried to act self righteous and GA mentioned him breaking the neck of his enemy to get the my family was in imminent danger routine and all I could think of was "Okay it is different. If I was there in front of Prometheus when he was destroying the city then I can kill him?" or "The situations are different flash. I mean you were suppose to let your enemy kill your family before you could kill him like me." lol