If someone cares, I have summarized here my thoughts on the combat speed of DBZ characters.

@nickzambuto:

But then what is the relationship between ki and speed? Is it a defined relationship?

@Flamingo117 said:

@nickzambuto:

Well, actually, your formula DOES have a flaw (I'm a DBZ fan, but also a Math geek).

Your premise is that power levels and speed are linearly correlated. What if every thousand power level increase is equal to a speed increase by 1? If you're not exactly sure what the power level to speed ratio/relationship is then you can't really solidly prove Goku is FTL.

@Flamingo117 said:

@nickzambuto:

But then what is the relationship between ki and speed? Is it a defined relationship?

Ki is the basis for every ability DBZ characters possess. X level of ki means they can go X fast, or are X strong, etc. That's why characters spend 20 minutes powering up, they're raising they're ki, or power level.

If Goku is twice as strong as Vegeta, that means he has twice as much ki to dispense.

Let's say Vegeta has a power level of 100, and Goku has 200. Vegeta can make 2 Galick Gun attacks, each with a power of 50. After that, he's spent, and has no ki reserves left.

Goku on the other hand, with his power level of 200, can make 4 Kamehamehas each with a power of 50 before tiring out.

Get it?

@nickzambuto: @Flamingo117:

I have the same questions that Flamingo had but i think it was answered but not proven. We understand ki relationship to power, but it doesn't always seem that ki level has a direct correlation to speed. People in DBZ would increase their power and strength but their speed was diminished. Shouldn't their speed have increased along with their ki level and power?

For ex: If Goku is level 100 and Gohan is level 200 then Gohan is twice as powerful as Goku. correct? But does that also mean that Gohan is 2x as fast Goku? Where is it stated that your ki levels increase all your stats at the same amount?

@pooty said:

@nickzambuto: @Flamingo117:

I have the same questions that Flamingo had but i think it was answered but not proven. We understand ki relationship to power, but it doesn't always seem that ki level has a direct correlation to speed. People in DBZ would increase their power and strength but their speed was diminished. Shouldn't their speed have increased along with their ki level and power?

For ex: If Goku is level 100 and Gohan is level 200 then Gohan is twice as powerful as Goku. correct? But does that also mean that Gohan is 2x as fast Goku? Where is it stated that your ki levels increase all your stats at the same amount?

It's a general rule in the DBZ universe.

EX. Raditz had a higher powerlevel then Goku and Piccolo, resulting in him being faster, stronger, durable ect

Another Example

Frieza second form and Piccolo (fused with Nail) has same powerlevel, so they were equally as fast, strong, ect ect

When Frieza increased his PL and turned Third Form he was faster, stronger, more durable and powerful then Piccolo.

Furthermore when entering a transformation like Super Saiyan there powerlevel rises, making them faster, stronger, more powerful ect.

@XImpossibruX: , then why was Trunks more powerful then Vegita, but too slow to hit Cell? and it happened again with someone else but i can't remember who. It had something to do with someone was so strong and muscle bound that they couldn't move fast.

@pooty said:

@XImpossibruX: , then why was Trunks more powerful then Vegita, but too slow to hit Cell? and it happened again with someone else but i can't remember who. It had something to do with someone was so strong and muscle bound that they couldn't move fast.

The Ultra Super Saiyan form focuses ki into raw power. Usually, ki would be distributed evenly in all areas. For example, you got a power level of 150?

Strength - 50

Speed - 50

Endurance - 50

etc. But with the Ultra Super Saiyan form, you give most ki to strength, sacrificing speed.

Strength- 75

Enurance- 75

Speed- 25

Get it?

@pooty said:

@XImpossibruX: , then why was Trunks more powerful then Vegita, but too slow to hit Cell? and it happened again with someone else but i can't remember who. It had something to do with someone was so strong and muscle bound that they couldn't move fast.

That was the Ultra Super Saiyan the only transformation in DBZ where Speed is sacrificed for Strength because of muscle mass.

Ok lets pop an example.

Goku has a PL of 3,000 000

Frieza has a PL of 60, 000 000

Because of Frieza higher PL he absolutely trumps Goku in speed and power and strength

But when Goku turns SSJ and raises his PL to 150 000 000 he trumps Frieza in everything

@nickzambuto said:

@pooty said:

@XImpossibruX: , then why was Trunks more powerful then Vegita, but too slow to hit Cell? and it happened again with someone else but i can't remember who. It had something to do with someone was so strong and muscle bound that they couldn't move fast.

The Ultra Super Saiyan form focuses ki into raw power. Usually, ki would be distributed evenly in all areas. For example, you got a power level of 150?

Strength - 50

Speed - 50

Endurance - 50

etc. But with the Ultra Super Saiyan form, you give most ki to strength, sacrificing speed.

Strength- 75

Enurance- 75

Speed- 25

Get it?

this as well.

@nickzambuto said:

@pooty said:

@XImpossibruX: , then why was Trunks more powerful then Vegita, but too slow to hit Cell? and it happened again with someone else but i can't remember who. It had something to do with someone was so strong and muscle bound that they couldn't move fast.

The Ultra Super Saiyan form focuses ki into raw power. Usually, ki would be distributed evenly in all areas. For example, you got a power level of 150?

Strength - 50

Speed - 50

Endurance - 50

etc. But with the Ultra Super Saiyan form, you give most ki to strength, sacrificing speed.

Strength- 75

Enurance- 75

Speed- 25

Get it?

add up your numbers again and you'll see a most obvious math problem lol. nevertheless, if their points can be distributed anyway they like then we can't say how much they used for speed. For ex: if you and I are both level 1,200 and you have your stats at:

Strength: 400

Speed: 400

Durability: 400

and my stats are:

Strength: 600

Speed: 300

Durability: 300

Even though we are the same level wouldn't You be faster then me and I would be stronger then you?

@pooty said:

@nickzambuto said:

@pooty said:

@XImpossibruX: , then why was Trunks more powerful then Vegita, but too slow to hit Cell? and it happened again with someone else but i can't remember who. It had something to do with someone was so strong and muscle bound that they couldn't move fast.

The Ultra Super Saiyan form focuses ki into raw power. Usually, ki would be distributed evenly in all areas. For example, you got a power level of 150?

Strength - 50

Speed - 50

Endurance - 50

etc. But with the Ultra Super Saiyan form, you give most ki to strength, sacrificing speed.

Strength- 75

Enurance- 75

Speed- 25

Get it?

add up your numbers again and you'll see a most obvious math problem lol. nevertheless, if their points can be distributed anyway they like then we can't say how much they used for speed. For ex: if you and I are both level 1,200 and you have your stats at:

Strength: 400

Speed: 400

Durability: 400

and my stats are:

Strength: 600

Speed: 300

Durability: 300

Even though we are the same level wouldn't You be faster then me and I would be stronger then you?

They've only been shown to modify stats while in that form. Otherwise, it's all equal. Full-Power Super Saiyan has all the strength of an Ultra Super Saiyan, but far more speed, as evidence by the Z Fighters failing to keep up with Goku and Cell's fight.

Average human - power level of 2

Olympic athletes - 3-4 maybe.

Roshi and Goku in Dragonball - 120 or so ( 30x top tier humans in speed and strength). Olympic Runners, Bolt for example was clocked at 28mph Roshi and Goku should be able to run or move at 800 miles an hour. During the World Tournament, Goku and Roshi could only be viewed in a blur to normal humans.

Freeza Sage Goku - 180,000 ( 45,000x the finest human athlete ) can run/fly whatever at least 1,200,000 miles an hour. Thats ONE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND MILES AN HOUR.

Super Saiyan 1 Goku - at least 25x the base form of 180,000, equates to roughly a power level of 4,500,000 and this is a low ball. Its clear Goku can boost his power level much higher than this, maybe even closer to 50 million - 100 million. Super Saiyan 1 is at least 4.5million realistically. In Super saiyan form, Goku is at least 1,125,000 times as fast as Bolt. Goku in ssj1 form should be able to fly or run at 31,500,000 miles an hour.

The circumference of Earth is roughly 25,000 miles around. Goku not in super saiyan form should be able to fly half way around the world in just a few seconds, which is exactly what he did in the anime. Thats Dragonball Z Speed. Still, not even close to Supermans level or Light speed. Light travels at

670, 616, 629 miles an hour. Super Saiyan 4 Goku, even Gogeta is no where near Supermans level. Not even remotely close, as Superman can fly fast enough around earth to make it spin backwards, and fly to distant galaxies in just a few seconds casually. Let this debate die already please :)

@nickzambuto: Oh ok so that was an "exception to the rule" form. Thanks for your time

@P0rtal said:

Average human - power level of 2

Olympic athletes - 3-4 maybe.

Roshi and Goku in Dragonball - 120 or so ( 30x top tier humans in speed and strength). Olympic Runners, Bolt for example was clocked at 28mph Roshi and Goku should be able to run or move at 800 miles an hour. During the World Tournament, Goku and Roshi could only be viewed in a blur to normal humans.

Freeza Sage Goku - 180,000 ( 45,000x the finest human athlete ) can run/fly whatever at least 1,200,000 miles an hour. Thats ONE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND MILES AN HOUR.

Super Saiyan 1 Goku - at least 25x the base form of 180,000, equates to roughly a power level of 4,500,000 and this is a low ball. Its clear Goku can boost his power level much higher than this, maybe even closer to 50 million - 100 million. Super Saiyan 1 is at least 4.5million realistically. In Super saiyan form, Goku is at least 1,125,000 times as fast as Bolt. Goku in ssj1 form should be able to fly or run at 31,500,000 miles an hour.

The circumference of Earth is roughly 25,000 miles around. Goku not in super saiyan form should be able to fly half way around the world in just a few seconds, which is exactly what he did in the anime. Thats Dragonball Z Speed. Still, not even close to Supermans level or Light speed. Light travels at

670, 616, 629 miles an hour. Super Saiyan 4 Goku, even Gogeta is no where near Supermans level. Not even remotely close, as Superman can fly fast enough around earth to make it spin backwards, and fly to distant galaxies in just a few seconds casually. Let this debate die already please :)

Sweet jesus do you have alot to learn

Goku traveled 1/2 of Namek (same size as Earth)

Light travels around the Earth 7.4 times.

Meaning Goku was going 1/15 Light speed.

IN SSJ he receives a 50X boost.

Nice one XImpossibruX, I approve.

I want to add a couple of things to that. As SS3, Goku's power level is higher than 1.2 billion. How much higher is largely up for debate. This is a fact because the Super Exciting Guide states that SS3 is a x400 increase over base form. And Goku's base form was 3 million in his fight against Frieza. Note this does not take into account his many many years of training or Zenkai boosts after the Frieza saga, which is why his true power level is largely up for debate and speculation. If you want to bring GT into this, as a Super Saiyan 3 his power level is higher than 480 billion. How much higher is once again, largely up for debate. We know that GT Goku in base form is greater than or equal to SS3 Goku in DBZ, due to his fight with Uub. That means he is a minimum of 400 times stronger as a SS3. Keep in mind though, these are absolute minimums, and Goku is definitely stronger than this. And SS4 is completely unquantifiable, because its multiplier has never been stated.

Another thing to note is that higher power level appears to give increasing returns. This is shown be how quickly Goku crosses Snake Way, which is a million kilometers long. His power level multiplied by about x8 and he crossed Snake Way in just over a day as opposed to just under 6 months.

Sorry dude, but this isn't a battle.  I'll move it.

@pooty said:

@nickzambuto said:

@pooty said:

@XImpossibruX: , then why was Trunks more powerful then Vegita, but too slow to hit Cell? and it happened again with someone else but i can't remember who. It had something to do with someone was so strong and muscle bound that they couldn't move fast.

The Ultra Super Saiyan form focuses ki into raw power. Usually, ki would be distributed evenly in all areas. For example, you got a power level of 150?

Strength - 50

Speed - 50

Endurance - 50

etc. But with the Ultra Super Saiyan form, you give most ki to strength, sacrificing speed.

Strength- 75

Enurance- 75

Speed- 25

Get it?

add up your numbers again and you'll see a most obvious math problem lol. nevertheless, if their points can be distributed anyway they like then we can't say how much they used for speed. For ex: if you and I are both level 1,200 and you have your stats at:

Strength: 400

Speed: 400

Durability: 400

and my stats are:

Strength: 600

Speed: 300

Durability: 300

Even though we are the same level wouldn't You be faster then me and I would be stronger then you?

I think the question you pose is Speed We have Flashes yes? Pico Second. Cool. What about Runner? What about Super Boy prime? Non of them have EXACT Speed attach. Infact What about the other Flashes? Whats there Exact Speed?

I see what your saying buts ts also wrong at the same time when not many characters period have any Exact Speed but Feats that show better speed.

Feats, Scans, logical conclusions is what Battle Forums about.

As @XImpossibruX: showed we have a Speed Measurment. It took Goku 42 hours to travel 1 million Kilometers at Power level 9000. If you do the official approve math for DBZ Speed and Power with Power level then you have near the Ball Park for Goku and Goku only.

Same for Piccolo speed vs Raditz. It took like 2 seconds for Piccolos beam to reach the Moon. Do the math for speed and distance. Raditz dodged that barely after it was fired at him. That should (thru math) give a Speed.

I the end Flash (and only that version of Flash) has a defenitive speed. Thats why we use feats and debating here. Not many characters period have numbers attach to them.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Thanks for taking note of that. Yes Sage Mode Naruto is definitely strong, but then again it is Anime strong. Next think you know he will have a inconsistent limitation so Tsunada or Sakura can show off their medical control of strength amping chakra.

Anime, you got to love it but seriously it's hard to debate with sometimes.

To move back onto this topic, people point out that Goku had trouble lifting 40 tons when he was a Super Saiyan, what people forget is that Goku was moving with 40 tons at speeds humans cannot see. I think it's finalized that Goku moves very quickly, fast as Superman and a debate topic with good debaters could be made (not fan boys).

How fast can Black Adam actually fight at? Punch at? Well fast as someone that can run at Mach 500, I've said this many times.

Here Black Adam's limbs give out at Mach 500. So imagine an A class boxer sprinting and his punching power and speeds. Times that by whatever it takes to make him run at Mach 500 and you could get an idea of how fast Superman, MM, Black Adam actually perceive time and fight at.

@Mortein said:

If someone cares, I have summarized here my thoughts on the combat speed of DBZ characters.

Wow, this is actually an excellent post. I didn't have time to read all your math to check it but we have conversed together before. I am thinking of merging your OP into my common misconceptions topic.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/speed-vs-strength-common-misconceptions/608680/

Nice to see this thread back on topic. It's made for some interesting reading.

@Lvenger said:

Nice to see this thread back on topic. It's made for some interesting reading.

YOU QUIET!

Lol, jk.

@SlimJ87D: It's just a shame not everyone can reasonably discuss comic vs anime battles on here. I've had a few thoughts on Superman vs Goku but I can't post them on here.

@Lvenger: Well with complete fanboysm aside and absolutely no BIAS, according to calculation Goku should win. He is much faster by showings and logic and has instant transmission. The research shows how fast Superman and Goku are, and Goku seems faster battle speed wise. Even traveling as he can instantly transmit.

@CadenceV2: What about Runner? What about Super Boy prime? Non of them have EXACT Speed attach. Infact What about the other Flashes? Whats there Exact Speed

The Flash people have exact numbers attached to many of their feats. Runner and Super boy prime have stats like : Runner ran light years in moments. Superman reached a dead moon in 4 seconds a million miles away. so many of them have exact numbers

not many characters period have any Exact Speed but Feats that show better speed.

Then list those better feats only if it can be proven. that's the key word: Proof. saying Runner ran light years in moments could mean anything from 2 light years in 2 seconds to 100 light years in 2 seconds. So which one is right?

Feats, Scans, logical conclusions is what Battle Forums about.

when the feats are not detailed many conclusions can be logical. If it took Goku 2 days to travel that bridge, is that exactly 48hr which is 2 days or did he start on monday and end on wednesday. that is also 2 days but can be less then 48hrs. That leaves his feat up to interpretation.

If you do the official approve math for DBZ Speed and Power with Power level then you have near the Ball Park for Goku and Goku only.

Can you show the Official statements where it says "all physical stats grow at the same rate"? If you are defending DBZ then you have to show proof of that. and again a ball bark statement leaves a lot to interpret.

It took like 2 seconds for Piccolos beam to reach the Moon

you say 2 seconds. everyone else said a "few seconds or a few moments" was it exactly 2 seconds or was it 3 or 4? Again a second is a big deal when you move at light speed. that is a 186,000 mile difference with just one second

Thats why we use feats and debating here.

Exactly true. But as I said before if you don't have exact numbers that makes it difficult. a few seconds could mean 2,3 or 4 seconds. when moving at light speed that is a big deal

also flight speed is different from combat speed. The Heralds of Galactus can move at light speed but none of them have been shown fighting at that speed. We know the Flash can fight faster then light speed and Superman near light speed. I don't know about Goku. I believe Goku can fight at those speeds but you gotta prove it to your opponent.

@SlimJ87D: But it does depend which version of Goku is used. For instance Saiyan Saga Goku would be completely unfair as pre New 52 Superman (I'm assuming this one because this the one usually used) would easily beat that Goku. But the Majiin Buu or GT Goku could kick Superman's ass easily. It would have to be Frieza Saga or Android/Cell Saga Goku for fairness sake.

@pooty said:

@CadenceV2: What about Runner? What about Super Boy prime? Non of them have EXACT Speed attach. Infact What about the other Flashes? Whats there Exact Speed

The Flash people have exact numbers attached to many of their feats. Runner and Super boy prime have stats like : Runner ran light years in moments. Superman reached a dead moon in 4 seconds a million miles away. so many of them have exact numbers

not many characters period have any Exact Speed but Feats that show better speed.

Then list those better feats only if it can be proven. that's the key word: Proof. saying Runner ran light years in moments could mean anything from 2 light years in 2 seconds to 100 light years in 2 seconds. So which one is right?

Feats, Scans, logical conclusions is what Battle Forums about.

when the feats are not detailed many conclusions can be logical. If it took Goku 2 days to travel that bridge, is that exactly 48hr which is 2 days or did he start on monday and end on wednesday. that is also 2 days but can be less then 48hrs. That leaves his feat up to interpretation.

If you do the official approve math for DBZ Speed and Power with Power level then you have near the Ball Park for Goku and Goku only.

Can you show the Official statements where it says "all physical stats grow at the same rate"? If you are defending DBZ then you have to show proof of that. and again a ball bark statement leaves a lot to interpret.

It took like 2 seconds for Piccolos beam to reach the Moon

you say 2 seconds. everyone else said a "few seconds or a few moments" was it exactly 2 seconds or was it 3 or 4? Again a second is a big deal when you move at light speed. that is a 186,000 mile difference with just one second

Thats why we use feats and debating here.

Exactly true. But as I said before if you don't have exact numbers that makes it difficult. a few seconds could mean 2,3 or 4 seconds. when moving at light speed that is a big deal

also flight speed is different from combat speed. The Heralds of Galactus can move at light speed but none of them have been shown fighting at that speed. We know the Flash can fight faster then light speed and Superman near light speed. I don't know about Goku. I believe Goku can fight at those speeds but you gotta prove it to your opponent.

We have Gokus speed. Take his Speed from Snake way and times that by his Power level. Thats the Match as used by whatever guy who owns DBZ right made cannon.

That is his FLIGHT speed. It says nothing about his FIGHT speed

Fight speed as in moves beyond the reception of Guys who can see at the Flight Speed. Are you saying now guys who can perceaive that flight speed loose track cause Goku and Vegeta Combat Speed moved to fast for them to see is slower than his Flight Speed?

Its a fact then his combat speed is faster.

He prefers to fight on the ground. This should be a small disadvantage. He is fast and strong but his flying ability should be a little lowered since the better flyer is not the fastest but who has best control in flying. This should be Tien and Chao-Zu advantage since they are more experience with flying. While I am at it Hawkgirl, Hawkman and Green Lantern should have an advantage in flight over Superman and Wonder Woman since they have more experience in flying. It may vary depending on the Wonder Woman

Sorry, I thought you met flight speed. Goku is a sprinter in combat so I say speed of sound is about right.

Alright, alright. I'm here to settle this petty argument.

I recall asking before how you can say powerlevels correlate with speed. The pro-DBZers insisted they were right without actual proof but childish speculation.

But I can actually prove the relationship between power levels and speed have relationship WITH Math. With this, I also prove that SSJ2 Goku is FTL while SSJ Goku isn't. This is a simple proof with no bullshit. Please take your time to read this.

When Goku first started out to cross snake-way, his power level was 334 without his weighted clothes. He crossed 1,000,000 km in 177 days. That means he was traveling at speed 235.404 km/hr.

When he finished training with King Kai, his power level was 9,000. He crossed 1,000,000 km in 2 days. He traveled at speed 20,833.33 km/hr.

Now = 334 : 235.404 km/hr to

9,000 : 20,833.33 km/hr

When you divide 9,000 by 334, the multiple is 26.9. If speed and power level have a linear correlation, their division should also yield the same 26.9. BUT IT DOESN'T! The division of the speed results in 88.5.

This means that every power level increase by 1 increases speed by 2.42 km/hr. This is even BETTER than a linear relationship between speed and power level.

And we aren't even considering an EXPONENTIAL relationship, which can mean even greater speeds. But let's focus on what we have now.

We can now come up with this equation:

Speed in km/hr given power level = (x - 334)*2.42 given x = power level

SSJ Goku had a power level of 150,000,000 according to the Daizenshu. This means that, according to our equation (plug 150,000,000 into x), he had a speed of 362,999,191.72 km/hr. Speed of light is 1.07925285 × 10^9. Goku is therefore slower than light by a lot.

However, if we take his later forms such as SSJ2/SSJ3 (assuming power level increases by 50x after each SSJ transformation), we are now dealing with an FTL Goku easily. At SSJ2, Goku's speed is now 1.814 x 10^10 km/hr, which is MUCH greater than speed of light.

At SSJ3, his speed is now 9.074 x 10^11 km/hr. You do the math and convert it to miles/sec because my calculator can't do it lol.

Also, when you notice, Goku learned IT after he learned how to transform into an SSJ. He prided on traveling at the speed of light (which he wouldn't have to do if he is already FTL) to which Vegeta was very jealous of. Goku clearly stated IT "is when you transform into particles of light and travel anywhere you want"

During Goku's battle with Cell, he used IT to escape a situation. Cell asked about IT and eventually taunted Goku with his own crazy speed claiming "I don't need IT with my speed" as he proceeded to hit Goku around. Perfect Cell was somewhere greater than SSJ and below SSJ2, just as how speed of light is between the speed of an SSJ and an SSJ2 as proved in my earlier post above.

Sorry I can't pick up the scans, but if someone else can, that would be great!