Alright, I know many people are here thinking why didn't this noob use the search bar. Because me and my friend online, so excited for the Death Battle Goku vs Superman that we started debating ourselves. So, on our start of this debate we had to first find out who is stronger. Of course, as much as it hurts me as a DBZ fanboy to say, Superman is stronger. However, what matters is by how much. Going by Death Battle's calculations Supes has an average max. of 66 quintillion tons. The only times he has gone higher was with a sun dip.

Goku was able to catch an Island in the Frieza saga, because its a chunk of land we're just going to say it weighs 10 million tons. This was without Kaioken or Super Saiyan at all. Matter of fact Frieza was hardly trying either, when he chucked it at Goku with his telekinesis. So, with Super Saiyan which increases all of his abilities x50. That comes out to 500 million tons. Still far short of 66 quintillion. So, then say Goku goes Ascended Super Saiyan. Which has roughly 4x the power of a regular Super Saiyan. Then you go to Mastered Super Saiyan or Full-Power Super Saiyan. Who is probably double an Ascended Saiyan's power. Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't come close to Perfect Cell's power. Then Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku comes in and is about equal to Perfect Cell in everyway. So, with Ascended Super Saiyan we are up to 2 billion tons. Then you factor in Full-Power Super Saiyan, and its 4 billion. Then comes SSJ2, which is probably 8x stronger. This is because when Gohan at only 11 yrs old, went SSJ2 he was able to beat 7 Cell Jrs. Each with the power of Perfect Cell, then going on to beat Perfect Cell horribly, humiliating him. While Goku even at Full-Power Super Saiyan couldn't even beat one! So know we are at 32 Billion tons. So you multiply that by 8x more for SSJ3. SSJ2 adult Gohan was killed in one punch by Majin Buu. Then when Goku went SSJ3 he was able to hold his own, and almost win. Only losing because his time in the Living World had ran out. So now we are at 256 billion tons, by the time of the battle of Kid Buu.

Now, do it all over again. Why, because by the End of Dragon Ball Z Goku has all of that power in his NORMAL form. I know because, before even at SSJ3 he struggled against a Kid Buu a stronger version of Majin Buu. His reincarnation Uub had all the same powers as Kid Buu, except for regeneration. Goku fought him in his base form not once using any type of boost. So now, his Super Saiyan form, since it increases his already tremendous power x50. Which comes out to 12 trillion, 800 billion tons. 12,800,000,000,0000 is still a bit less than 66 quintillion tons. Now we do Ascended Super Saiyan. 12,800,000,000,000 times 2. We get 25 600 000 000 000. Or 25 trillion 600 billion tons. But now we calculate SSJ2. Take 25 600 000 000 000 and multiply it by 8x. You will get 204 800 000 000 000 tons. That's 204 trillion, 800 billion tons. Then for SSJ3 again, multiply that by x8. We will have 1 638 400 000 000 000! That is 1 quadrillion ,638 trillion,400 billion tons! Now, for SSJ4 things will get tricky.

See in order for a Saiyan to become a Super Saiyan 4 they must become an Oozaru or Great Ape. In this form Goku had enough power to destroy a city as a kid. Most trained Saiyans could easily destroy planets with this form if they knew how to use it. The size of a Great Ape is very inconsistent, in some cases its the size of a mountain, other times its smaller than a building. Once it was even big enough to put holes in planets and their destruction could be seen from space. To become a Super Saiyan 4 a saiyan must first become a Great Ape. Then, they must become a SSJ3 while in Great Ape form. As Vegeta stated in the Saiyan Saga. The Great Ape transformation increases their power x10. So we must multiply 1 638 400 000 000 000x10 Which would come out to 16 384 000 000 000 000 tons. That's 16 quadrillion, 384 trillion tons! We are finally getting close to supes. When the SSJ3 Great Ape, becomes self conscious, it will become a SSJ4. Then, multiply x8 for the SSJ4. We know SSJ4 was stronger than SSJ3 because while fighting Bebii, SSJ3 Goku was barely able to keep up, and was getting beaten. Also, keep in mind Bebii was using power from SSJ2 Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ Goten, and SSJ Trunks. The moment Goku went SSJ4, the table turned. None of Bebii's attacks even phased Goku. Goku could take as long as he wanted and he knew he would win. You will get this number 131 072 000 000 000 000. Which is 131 quadrillion, 72 trillion tons! But, Goku still has two final options to boost even further. When SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Future Trunks were fighting Super Android 13. Super Android 13 was able to fight them all. Easily taking them down. Goku created a spirit bomb and absorbed it. He was able to beat Super Android 13 with only one punch after doing so. This means SSJ Goku (who's powerlevel was 150,000,000) Somehow got his powerlevel to get over triple that. So, I'm just going to assume it was x5. Which is 655 360 000 000 000 000 tons or 655 quadrillion, 360 trillion tons! That would be Goku's first option. However, in Screw Attack's Death Battle. That probably won't happen for one simple reason. They ruled out outside help. The spirit is basically nothing but outside help, since Goku does not create it from his own power. But Goku has another option. The Kaioken, while the Kaioken does take a huge tole on Goku's body if used for extended periods of time, after Goku trained using it, he can maintain it for quite a while being able to use the technique up to 20x. Boosting all his abilities x20 temporarily. If he were to do this as a SSJ4 using the Kaioken, you would get 2 621 440 000 000 000 000. Or 2 quintillion, 621 quadrillion, 440 trillion tons! But, there is another thing with the Kaioken, the Super Kaioken. Although it has only been used once. I think it is safe to assume it is around the double Kaioken's power. Pikkon was above a SSJ2. Somewhere between SSJ2 Gohan and Majin Vegeta. Pikkon was able to defeat Super Perfect Cell with only one attack. While SSJ2 Gohan almost lost.With the Super Kaioken, Goku completely outmatched Pikkon for about a good 5 seconds. So if Super Kaioken is 40x then we'll do that instead of the regular Kaioken. Which would give us 5 242 880 000 000 000 000 or Five quintillion, 242 quadrillion, 880 trillion tons! That is over 10 septillion pounds!

Now the reason why this is important even though he is still weaker than Superman. Goku has roughly one 13 of Superman's maximum strength without his sun dip. Even though Supes is x13 stronger than Goku what you have to keep in mind is that Goku has taken hits from people 20x stronger than him. Like when he was fighting Frieza. Frieza revealed he was using only 1% of his actual strength, Goku giving it his all. The moment Frieza decided to use 50%. Goku was defenseless. Goku's PL was only 3 million at that time. Frieza's was 60 million. Frieza tossed Goku around like a ragdoll after that, surprised that he was still alive. Goku's durability was far greater than his strength. He could take everything Frieza threw at him despite Frieza being x20 stronger. Now, when Goku got angry he used the Kaioken x20 for the very first time. What I am trying to say is. Goku may be weaker. But it is close enough, closer than the gap between him and Frieza was. Also, this is just Strength, raw lifting and physical potential. As done by Trunks he could always put all his ki in his Muscles to convert all of his energy, into physical power. But that is for another time.

Share your thoughts below, think I made a mistake, let me know!

All conjecture. I also don't remember Goku lifting an island in the manga, and you simply estimated its weight anyway. Then you proceeded to provide calculations based on power levels which were never confirmed will never be.

More simply stated, power levels do not equate lifting strength, or any other stat for that matter.

Goku lifted 40 tons in other world and once trained at 100x gravity. Whichever is greater is his true feat.

@jloneblackheart: He did in the anime which is canon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAAnA8t0XJg Skip to 9:34 seconds in the video. While I will admit he didn't stop it, he was able to grab and hold it, and slow down its momentum. It only stopped once it collided with the mountain. While I could be estimating its weight, I went with the bare minimum I think for its weight. An Island that size could have weighed far over 10 million tons. There was also that time he lifted the densest metal in DBZ. Katchin.

Hi. I've also been anticipating the Goku vs Superman video. I did a search for some stuff and I came across some posts on Comicvine. I've always known about the forum but I just decided to make an account so I could respond to something here. I totally agree with jloneblackheart. I've seen other people making the exact same assumptions without any evidence for it. If anything, there's always evidence against their claims. Power levels increases never equate to the same fixed incremental increases in raw strength or even speed. I've seen a lot of Dragon Ball fans try to say the same thing about Goku's speed. Power levels are a measurement of something's overall power, not one thing in particular. The only thing that really seems to increase dramatically with power levels are a character's ability to manipulate energy and their body's resistance to damage from another character's energy attacks. Everything else increases but at a MUCH lower rate.

@urbanchamp: These aren't Powerlevels. These are based off of feats. That is why it says 'tons' after every large number. I never calculated a powerlevel in this. These are status multipliers that come with each transformation as given not energy output. Look at it this way. I can lift about 120 pounds give or take. If I were a Super Saiyan, I could lift 6,000 pounds regardless of other factors. Why, Super Saiyan transformation increases stats and energy by x50. Ascended Super Saiyan I could life 12,000 pounds. I am gonna convert that into tons. So, I divide by 2,000. I get 6. I could lift 6 tons! I am not going by powerlevels of any kind, I calculated the physical attribute of each transformation. I calculated powerlevel's before, it was so large I couldn't fit it on a calculator. Not even a Texas Instruments TI-84 or my $50 Casio.

@Ben836: "Frieza saga, because its a chunk of land we're just going to say it weighs 10 million tons. This was without Kaioken or Super Saiyan at all."

He used 10x Kaioken. And didn't lift or push it, the rock pushed he back while Goku's foot breaking the ground under him. It's near impossible to calculate strength from this data, you should have to be a renaissance man. And doesn't worth it because the majority wouldn't accept as that is a non-manga feat.

Also for a battle the lifting feat irrelevant. If you can lift the Earth, your punch wont be as strong as the Earth. Punching strength that matter and combat speed. Goku has the advantage on these two.

@mypasswordis1234:

He was lifting it, the rock came from higher up and was in his hands, parts of it were on the ground but the momentum and inertia pushed him back quicker than he could stop it. But, I realize this is a pretty sketchy feat to go by, I will find another.

@Ben836: Look at my gallery for a successful rock-pushing.

@Ben836: I see that you're trying to base them off of feats. And these feats are still, for the most part, extremely inconsistent. It's like they either abruptly toned down everyone's physical strength, speed, and durability after the Freeza saga, or they just dramatically decreased the amount of physical strength, speed, and durability they gain from an increase in power level after the Freeza saga. Either way, everyone seemed to get nerfed big time some kind of way. I noticed this watching the series myself. Something just seemed horribly lacking by the time the Androids and Cell came around. Their energy offense and defense abilities were still going up at a rate that seemed right, but everything else seemed to increase a MUCH MUCH lower rate.

"I can lift about 120 pounds give or take. If I were a Super Saiyan, I could lift 6,000 pounds regardless of other factors. Why, Super Saiyan transformation increases stats and energy by x50. Ascended Super Saiyan I could life 12,000 pounds. I am gonna convert that into tons. So, I divide by 2,000. I get 6. I could lift 6 tons! I am not going by powerlevels of any kind, I calculated the physical attribute of each transformation. I calculated powerlevel's before, it was so large I couldn't fit it on a calculator."

As I said in my first message, power level increases just do not equal the equivalent amount of increase in pure physical strength/muscle. There's no evidence for that. Super Saiyen 4 Goku's physical abilities and feats are supposed to be MANY times higher than SS1 but you sure as hell wouldn't even know that by what he actually does. I've tried explaining my thoughts on this again. I'm not sure if you understand me or not. Maybe someone else does.

@urbanchamp: I get that. Don't worry though, I have a more feasable feat to go by. I am working on it. I know that powerlevels don't determine physical strength. But, what I keep telling you is, in Dragon Ball Z energy can be dispersed to increase a certain aspect. All of Super Saiyan Trunks energy went into his muscles when he fought Perfect Cell. That is why he appeared so over-muscular. That form is called USSJ, but its stronger and hasn't got anymore energy than when he fought Frieza. The only time someone is get's more energy than a Super Saiyan is when Gohan goes SSJ2. It wasn't their powerlevel, it was how they used the power. That is what I was referring too. The reason SSJ4 doesn't look much stronger than SSJ1 is because GT had many issues. But, SSJ2 and SSJ3 clearly showed to be stronger than SSJ1.

lifting strenght is overrated anyway. You are not going to kill anyone by lifting them or something. striking strenght and wrapping strenght are more important IMO and lifting strenght is mainly to lift things away from people or toss big objects that might hurt the enemy (might)

@Jorgevy: Lifting strength can be overrated,. Looking at real-life examples of it you can see how it's true. Just because someone can lift a lot of weight doesn't mean they'll be a powerful knockout puncher in boxing. There are a lot of other factors that go into that sort of thing other than pure strength. Pure strength certainly helps, but it's far from the only thing. If the best KO boxers in history were able to increase their pure strength (particularly in their back muscles, core, and legs) and not limit their other attributes they'd be able to get even more KOs.

What is "wrapping strength"? Is that a typo?

@urbanchamp:

I get that Lifting strength can be overrated, but I was just tired of people saying Goku struggles at 40 tons. I did these calculations again, based a more consistent and widely accepted feat. Like jloneblackheart said, I decided to use the xNormal Gravity feat for that one. The only thing I use that didn't happen in the manga based off of powerscaling is the amount of gravity. If Vegeta trained 400x normal gravity with a powerlevel of only 1,000,000 after being revived without Super Saiyan, and Goku is clearly stronger since he beat Frieza. (Frieza killed Vegeta.) So, Goku could probably train in x400 normal gravity too. I could make another thread using that data if you would like! It is a little less than a quintillion tons, but it gets my point across.

Goku was lifting 40 tons with ease as a Super Saiyan. Each Super Saiyan level is multiplied by 50. So at Super Saiyan 2, he could lift well over 2000 tons.

@BiteMe-Fanboy: The gravity on that planet was 10x! And He was doing it with some difficulty in normal form. It was a base form feat, not a super saiyan since it easy to him. That scene was filler anyway and isn't canon. That is why i am using the gravity feats instead.

@Ben836 said:

@BiteMe-Fanboy: The gravity on that planet was 10x! And He was doing it with some difficulty in normal form. It was a base form feat, not a super saiyan since it easy to him. That scene was filler anyway and isn't canon. That is why i am using the gravity feats instead.

It wasn't filler. It was in the manga as well.

While I admire the effort, I may have to point out that in both media there's quite a bit of inconsistency in regards to strength and durability. Superman is a bit of a given, but Goku has these problems too. For example, Goku was supposedly stronger than Frieza, who survived his own planet busting attack while being cut in half, but during the cell saga, where Frieza's strength was supposedly irrelevant by that point, Goku and King Kai perish to a single planet busting attack.

It's difficult to apply lifting strength and speed to Power Level since neither value are on a 1:1 ratio. If that were the case, the farmer killed by Raditz at the start of DBZ would have only been able to lift 2 lbs and run at 2 MPH, since he only had a power level of 2.

As for the fight, I personally believe that there's not much Goku can do to hurt Superman without the Power Pole, and the way I look at it, Superman is capable of greater speeds than Goku. Goku may have his fighting ability, but even with it permitting Goku superhuman levels of physical capability, I don't see it as enough to do anything to the man of steel.

@ArticulateT: How many times must I say this, these are not based off of power levels! These are based after multipliers of stats, not energy output. I understand that strength was inconsistent and I will have to redo the facts over. Again these are not powerlevels, these are based off of when it was stated the Super Saiyan increases all of a Saiyans abilities by 50x.

Oozaru was stated to have 10x a normal Saiyans. Obviously Oozaru is physically stronger. I also appreciate another person, acknowledging the inconsistencies of both series, and actually having read the manga. I cannot however say I agree. I don't see how Superman is faster or how he would honestly win against Goku. Physical strength is good, but without knowing how to use it, its just pointless. Its like a Wrestler vs A World Class Martial Artist. Only the wrestler just happens to be physically stronger.

@Ben836: @jloneblackheart:Even though it's 2 months old I just wanted to say that there is absolutely no evidence of the Grand Kai's planet being 10 or even 100x normal gravity. People want to assume that because King Kai's planet had higher gravity that all of other world had it, even though Mr Satan and his dog were casually trouncing around the Supreme Kai's planet with no strain at all

@King_Bradley: I've mentioned that before. Never get much replies from it though. I've actually pointed out that Other World has the same gravity as Earth, since when they go to the check out they are unaffected by any gravity. Same with Snake Way. Only on King Kai's planet was the gravity higher.

Its 400 tons still not as much as Superman has carried. Sorry but its all assumptions from this point on...Nothing concrete.

@SandMan_ said:

Its 400 tons still not as much as Superman has carried. Sorry but its all assumptions from this point on...Nothing concrete.

When did he lift 400 tons?

It can go up To millions or more

Goku wasn't lifting 40 tons. those weights were wrapped around his legs and arms. to lift something you have to use your hands. here is Goku lifting

@SSJjanemba : Good job!

@jloneblackheart : Also it should be noted that Goku was able to lift 1 car=2 tons apqrox. when he was a kid (without training). Let say Goku didn't have any effect in lifting power after training (which is stupid). And during his fight with Raditz, Raditz stated that he is AT LEAST 10 times stronger than Goku and Picollo combined. So that means :

Goku + Picollo= 2+2= 4 tons

Raditz =4 X10 = 40 tons

So that means Base Raditz = Base Goku after cell saga ? Thats bullshit. The lifting power of 40 tons was inconsistent!

goku was throwing cars at the age of 10 in the first chapter.

last i checked a average care is around 2 tons . to show goku training with 2 ton weights in Buu saga is utter nonsense.

@9876: Advice: watch your language in the forums.

Great advice: especially follow above rule when calling out a mod.

Anyway, when they say stronger, they are referring to battle power. It doesn't mean he is 10x lifting strength, or faster, or any other individual stat. That's the problem with power scaling in the first place.

When we look at what actually was shown in the manga, that is the actual feat. Not a statement or a guess.

@flashback0180: you watch your language also

@jloneblackheart: fixed it.

@jloneblackheart : if u had watched the full fight, he was both faster and stronger than them. And in almost Dbz fight, the stronger one is superior in every state.

Super saiyan is 50 times strong than normal saiyan. If we take your explaination, then ssj should superior in only one state. But as we see, ssj was superior in every state.

The defination of stronger in Dbz is superior in every state.

@jloneblackheart: I just have one question about your previous reply.

Battle power is just the scouters reading.

The scouters literally measures the amount of ki you have. Stated multiple times, because only some earthlings have the ability to sense ki & hide it.

According to toriyama ki use to surpass the physichal limitations.

To say having a higher power level doesn't increase their overall capabilities, doesn't sound like a valid argument.

@9876: @flashback0180: I'm not saying a higher battle power means you aren't stronger or faster, etc. I'm saying the multipliers don't work. Having ten times the power level does not mean ten times the strength, or ten times the speed.

I will also mention that I love Dragonball. Seen it all, own it all. But multipliers simply don't add up to what is actually done in the manga or anime. I could point you at a million threads using multipliers where Goku can lift billions of tons and go millions of times faster than light, but based on actual feats and events, that is not the truth.

@jloneblackheart:

Lol as a user with over 5500 posts I'm sure you would be well versed in dbz and most usual topics.

But multipliers are extremely relevant. As pointed by cell to trunks, you can get stronger by buffing up your body with ki. But then they sacrifice speed.

IIRC it's generally accepted that radditz was bluffing. He can't possibly be 10x more powerful in terms of power level, he was just 1000k, 10 times piccolo & goku would put him above nappa and around base goku(trained)

@jloneblackheart : i don't believe even for a second that u are a dbz fan. Given the fact u were denying the truth that the gravity on Kai Planet and Other World is greater than Earth's. Kai are the creator of stars. Their home planets are stars. And stars always have more gravity than Earth. That means Goku has been lifting more than 40 tons given the gravity was at least 10x Earth's.

Also, i haven't gone with powerlevels yet. As i stated in dbz, stronger means superior in every state same goes with multipliers. Proof? The ssj transformation, frieza forms, cell forms. They all get stronger not in just one state but in every state when they claimed they are stronger. Give me a scan where multiplier do not increase every state.

@9876: Other World most certainly does not have increased gravity. When Goku died, he didn't experience any increased gravity at the check-in, on Snake Way or in HFIL. He felt it as soon as he landed on King Kai's planet though. Additionally, his weight training in question happened on Grand Kai's planet, which could or could not have increased gravity. It was never mentioned once that anywhere other than the Capsule Corp training capsules, King Kai's Planet, Planet Vegeta and Voon (the home planet of Pui Pui) had increased gravity. I don't know where you are getting that the planets of the Kais are stars. Besides, even if King Kai's planet is a star, which it isn't, it was still stated to only have 10x Earth's gravity.

Again, I did not say stats didn't increase when power levels went up. I'm saying they don't multiply by the factor of the power level.

What does it matter?

Goku is significantly weaker than Superman in the lifting/benching strength category.

But that's not how he defeats enemies anyway, so I think this video is most appropriate on my feelings about this topic..

Jmarshmallow

@9876: You're the one who doesn't seem to know what you're talking about. Enjoy your time off for the language and the direct insult.

Very true.

I think this debate is like beating a dead horse...i've been a superman comic fan for a LONG time now...and i will tell you that Goku has a great chance to make the fight competitive...not sure if he could win...but definitely has the skill set to make it a real brutal fight.. My contention of why that might be is that i believe (myself alone) that Goku uses psuedo magic to bend reality...i mean for instance his ability to transport from one galaxy to another based on sensing life force energy is a great example..this is all just supposition or opinion but i would earnestly believe Goku has a great chance to even knock Superman out based on some comics of Supes...but we will never know for certain...it's just so many inconsistencies between the two--one cannot really gauge the full extent of how these two super powered characters would duke it out in a real match.

Ssj 2 is 2 times stronger than ssj

And ssj3 is times stronger than ssj2

Ssj 4 is 4 times stronger than ssj3

It'a stand in wiki

So ssj = 50

Ssj2 = 100

Asj 3 = 400

Ssj 4 = 1600

It's impossible to calculate... Super saiyan form only multiply the base power of a saiyan. His base power is always getting higher, thats why he's so strong. Goku don't need to turn in to a super saiyan to beat superman in his atual base power...

@DGTachyon Dude since there is super saiyan god super saiyan could you do the math once again please :),And since goku improved his basic form his ssj is much stronger. btw have u seen dragon ball super? If u have you will know what im talking about.

So what? Lifting power =/= Strike power anyway.

Withstanding a blackhole or at least blackhole's force and weight.