Goku is faster than light

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#1 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

So lets look at a feat from dragonball where kid goku is dodging lasers. He does not aim dodge as you can see in the second image, he is upside down and completely not moving when the laser is fired. How fast does a laser travel?

A laser will travel at the speed of light at around 2.98 x 108 ms-1

A laser is only light, so yes it travels at the speed of light. Remember that laser stands for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. Some lasers can go more than light speed (300 times more than light speed).

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2000/jul/19/laser-smashes-light-speed-record

Goku dodges tiens solar flare. A attack that is light and has enough time to get master roshi's glasses and come back.

kid goku's combat speed is FTL.

Goku is confirmed to be faster than light when he fought burter and jiece. So how exactly is super saiyan 4 goku only 2 times the speed of light as claimed by deathbattle?

Now lets look at the snake way calculation deathbattle did. They gave goku's base speed after he trained with king kai as 11,000 kph or 6,800 mph. Kid goku was trained by mr popo to be faster than lightning so how is this right? How fast does lightning travel?

lightning actually goes at variable speeds, because it is not just light, but electron plasma moving through charged air. Its can depend on air conditions, but the typical lightning bolt moves at 224,000 mph -- or about 3,700 miles per second. So goku in dbz got slower than kid goku when he crossed snake way?

Here is the problem with the snake way calculation.

"6,800mph x 586 x 50 x 2 x 4 = 1,593,920,000mph

You don't initially divide by 10 because Snakeway is normal gravity and not a part of King Kai's 10x gravity, If you noticed, I stopped after the SSJ3 multiplier - this is now Goku's base form as his base form in GT is roughly equal (if not even stronger) than his DBZ SSJ3 form. So we have:

1,593,920,000 x 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = 6,375,680,000,000mph

6,375,680,000,000mph / 671,000,000 (speed of light in mph) = 9,501 times faster than light."

credit goes to DigimonTrainer on gamefaqs.com for corrrecting this.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000113-dragon-ball-general/65152408

So even if we use the snake way calculation you can see goku is MFTL

Goku's base form gets stronger over the series. Goku at the end of dbz was fighting with uub (reincarnation of kid buu) in base form.

Also this does not account for how goku's base form is again stronger at the end of gt.

Also, using snake way is not a good idea since it has loops and straightways which you cant account for.

Toriyama represents snake way as

spanning a quarter of the universe in the Daizenshu which is a really long.

So as you can see goku is massively faster than light and much much faster than the top speed given to him in the deathbattle goku vs. superman.

Also read this insanely detailed blog by kakarot88 (credit goes to him for the snake way pics and dragonball feats) on both character in which he does a amazing job analyzing them both and coming to a fair result.

http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-battle-erred-goku-vs-superman

#2 Posted by Tacos_Kickass (844 posts) - - Show Bio

Who cares.

#3 Edited by Perethorn (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to give my respect to the guy that corrected the Goku vs Superman Death Battle, that was a hell of a research.

#4 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

burter seems hyperboled

ribbon seems aimdodge

#5 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11591 posts) - - Show Bio

Nothing about DBZ stats are accurate. It's something people have to accept and move on while still loving it unconditionally anyway. (Or hate it, but c'mon)

#6 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx:Red Ribbon isnt aim dodge, goku dodged after the beam was fired. Forgot to include this middle image. And burter isnt a hyberbole because dbz character have been dodging light speed attacks before.

#7 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm: bottom panel of page 93 is iffy, and ki does not act like light projectiles. As for Tien's attack goku can just cross with his eyes closed, he is heavily trained anyways.

#8 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: How is it iffy? Goku on the top panel is upside down and against the wall. He is in the same position when the laser is fired in the bottom panel. He did not move and the laser is fired. The only way for him to dodge is to move faster than light. Which he did.

For tiens attack goku wont be able to close his eyes before the light reaches him. Light has a speed of almost 300,000 km/sec. The circumference of Earth is 40,000 km. light can go around Earth 7.5 times per second. That is why he had to go get the sunglasses and come back. Both of these show kid goku has FTL combat speed/ reaction time.

#9 Edited by AweSam (7375 posts) - - Show Bio

Kudos on the thread. Funny to see everyone getting pissed off without realizing they're just in denial. Goku's fast, obviously. So fast that when he dodges an attack, it appears as if he hasn't even moved. That's precise reaction timing and speed. Superman could do that, but both DBZ and comics tend to be inconsistent with a characters abilities.

#10 Posted by frogdog (3248 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiderman has dodged lasers as well, so by your logic, spider-man is faster than light.

#11 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm: Distance

  • First shot they are in same room
  • Second shot farther away (sky to ground/wall)

Light takes one second to reach the moon, if said projectile is light then all of those shots would end in explosions. Clearly not the case with the images. Not laser, not light in how it operates IRL.

#12 Edited by Teerack (6327 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku and Cooler in the second Cooler movie(back when Super Sayian 1 was his highest transformation) have a whole fight faster then light... Do people really argue he's not? xD

But he's not moving faster then light in any of your examples :P

#13 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@frogdog: I have seen the scans where spiderman dodges lasers. He is not dodging since he is already moving and the lasers are on while he is moving. That is called aim dodging which is completely different. Also, can spiderman catch bullets or have a fight in one second (which involves playing rock paper scissors, thinking spitting), can he move so fast no one can see him?

@nerx: Im not sure what your saying, those shots did end in explosions.

@teerack: Cooler and the movies are not canon so we cant use them. Only the manga is canon. He is moving faster than light in the scans. This is his combat speed not travel speed. His combat speed is higher than travel speed. All dbz characters move extremely fast in combat.

take a look at this

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/reaction-time-529143/

look for the scan of master roshi after someone asks who is roshi. Not the first one where he is catching bullets although that is impressive. The second scan where he and krillin are fighting is the impressive one. The whole fight took place in one second.

#14 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm: light can travel seven times around the world in under a second, first shot is in close range since they are in same room. Second shot 'took time' to reach and explode.

not speed of light, (moonbust is better showing)

but i am one of those people who do not believe in DB being FTL

#15 Posted by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

Dodging lasers isn't proof of light speed IMO. I think people think of lasers in the traditional sense and what lasers are SUPPOSED to be and how they are SUPPOSED to work. I don't think they work that way in fiction because characters far under Goku's level of speed dodge lasers in comics all the time.

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#16 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: I dont know how you can tell the second shot took time. It looks like the same to me. However, even if you disregard that, the solar flare feat is still there. I believe there combat speed is higher than there travel speed. I dont think db characters are FTL in terms of travel speed only combat. However, lets disregard the solar flare. Mr Popo trained kid goku to be faster than lightning. As ive said before, typical lightning bolt moves at 224,000 mph. Lets apply the super saiyan multiplier to this. This would be severly low-balling goku since this is kid goku so adult goku base form would be faster.

224,000 x 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = 896000000 mph

this is still faster than light as light travels at approximately 671,000,000 mph. So the point is goku in dbz is faster than light. Goku is db has minimum faster than lightning combat speed.

#17 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm:

also do not take 'words' out of their mouths unless shown or calced based on feats.

First shot from first page in one room

Second shot did not immediately explode

#18 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: As I have pointed out before I have seen the scans where those characters dodge lasers. That is not dodging since the lasers are already on while the characters are moving. That is aim dodging. However, even if you disregard the lasers feat and the solar flare feat. As I have shown in the previous post, kid goku with just faster than lightning combat speed is faster than light if you apply super saiyan multipliers. I dont think people realize how fast dragonball characters are let alone dbz characters. Master roshi and krillin both which are slower than kid goku by the end of dragonball had a whole fight in one second.

#19 Edited by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@vance_astro: As I have pointed out before I have seen the scans where those characters dodge lasers. That is not dodging since the lasers are already on while the characters are moving. That is aim dodging.

I'm not arguing how fast Goku is, I'm arguing dodging lasers being valid proof of that speed. You can't possibly believe EVERY instance of laser dodging in comics is "aim dodging".

This doesn't look like AIM dodging to me.

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#20 Posted by ThatGuyWithHeadPhones (11049 posts) - - Show Bio

The phrase '' faster then light'' has never been said in DBZ all stats are made up..

Deal with it

#21 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Spiderman has his spider sense so he can probably detect the lasers before they come. However, he hasnt shown any other feats to make him FTL. Goku has shown to move faster than the solar flare. Comic lasers dont work like they do in real life. However, does that mean the same for manga? Lets just say goku lasers dodging doesnt mean he is faster than light combat speed.

How fast do you think kid goku is in terms of combat speed by the end of dragonball?

#22 Posted by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@vance_astro: Spiderman has his spider sense so he can probably detect the lasers before they come. However, he hasnt shown any other feats to make him FTL. Goku has shown to move faster than the solar flare. Comic lasers dont work like they do in real life. However, does that mean the same for manga? Lets just say goku lasers dodging doesnt mean he is faster than light combat speed.

How fast do you think kid goku is in terms of combat speed by the end of dragonball?

I'm not saying Spider-Man is FTL either. I'm saying dodging lasers isn't an FTL feat. Knowing a laser is coming before it hits you still means you would have to dodge something traveling at the speed of light and in his case from a short distance so even with a head start you'd have to move incredibly fast. Comic lasers don't work like they do in real life? Yea, that's what I said..so why would it be different for DB? Dragonball and Dragonball Z are incredibly inconsistent and leaves loose ends. Faster than light combat speed for Kid Goku doesn't make any sense that would mean either speed doesn't increase with power levels or that it does and by the Cell Saga everyone is moving WAAAAY faster than light. Which doesn't make any sense to me. Goku as a kid probably moves at really high mach speeds. It's more likely that adult Goku is FTL than Kid Goku.

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#23 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Toriyama is the king of shonen but is also the king of inconsistency.

#24 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Ok, lets say if kid goku dodging lasers isnt faster than light combat speed. There is still the solar flare but lets say thats an outlier. I believe at a minimum goku's combat speed at the end of dragonball is faster than lightning based on mr. popo training which would make him massively hypersonic. As I shown before that would definitely mean goku in dbz is FTL in terms of combat speed. I believe there combat speed is faster than there traveling speed. Here kami who is a god cant see goku, this is at the end of dragonball.

#25 Posted by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@vance_astro: Ok, lets say if kid goku dodging lasers isnt faster than light combat speed. There is still the solar flare but lets say thats an outlier. I believe at a minimum goku's combat speed at the end of dragonball is faster than lightning based on mr. popo training which would make him massively hypersonic. As I shown before that would definitely mean goku in dbz is FTL in terms of combat speed. I believe there combat speed is faster than there traveling speed. Here kami who is a god cant see goku, this is at the end of dragonball.

Toriyama is the king of shonen but is also the king of inconsistency.

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#26 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Im not here to convince you or anyone else. I just want people to know the facts and to treat goku fairly. If your going to put goku into battles against other characters you should know how fast he is.

#27 Posted by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@vance_astro: Im not here to convince you or anyone else. I just want people to know the facts and to treat goku fairly. If your going to put goku into battles against other characters you should know how fast he is.

Well I don't and I don't think you do either. Akira Toriyama probably doesn't even know precisely how fast Goku is.

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#28 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: From what Toriyama has shown me I think he is faster than light.

#29 Posted by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@vance_astro: From what Toriyama has shown me I think he is faster than light.

Fair enough.

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#30 Edited by Teerack (6327 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing you need to prove he's faster then light is this.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Afterimage_Technique

And when he gets to an adult he can movie so fast that he can make it look like 20+ version of him are moving at the same time and they don't even look fuzzy.(im not getting confused and thinking of the Multi-Form technique) There are a lot more examples, but the entire concept of this movie comes from moving so fast the light cant keep up with you.

#31 Edited by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

The only thing you need to prove he's faster then light is this.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Afterimage_Technique

And when he gets to an adult he can movie so fast that he can make it look like 10+ version of him are moving at the same time. There are a lot more examples, but the entire concept of this movie comes from moving so fast the light cant keep up with you.

Daredevil can do that too :)

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#32 Posted by Teerack (6327 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Uh.. no. That's not an after image :P You see dragon ball is a cartoon witch means that they can show people moving like that. Comics are drawings though, and you see drawings don't movie. So when an artist needs to show quick moment they do stuff like that. So it's completely different..... I kinda hope you're trolling... because you should be able to understand that. -_-

#33 Edited by Vance Astro (91233 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

@vance_astro: Uh.. no. That's not an after image :P You see dragon ball is a cartoon witch means that they can show people moving like that. Comics are drawings though, and you see drawings don't movie. So when an artist needs to show quick moment they do stuff like that. So it's completely different..... I kinda hope you're trolling... because you should be able to understand that. -_-

After Image has to be more technique than speed because when showing any type of speed even for FTL characters like Gladiator & Superman, they leave after images but they don't last, at least not in the way they are shown in Dragonball where the opponent still thinks the character is standing there. I was trolling with the Daredevil thing but I don't believe after image is proof of HOW FAST Goku is.

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#34 Posted by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it possible that Commander Black just missed? I mean Goku seems to be scared and surprised not dodging.

#35 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@godtriggerhulk: very unlikely. The metal suit commander black is in is sophisticated enough to shoot lasers and fly so it definitely has a locking on device before it fires. Anyway, goku wasnt even moving so I highly doubt he would miss.

#36 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe that Goku is FTL based on these scans:

This was published by Shonen Jump, making it irrefutable canon.

I know, no timeframe is given, but do you really believe that Frieza stood there for 10 minutes with his hand outstretched?

I believe that all this happened in one second, and that's generous considering the speed that Frieza moves. That would mean he'd move at 12,756.2km/s. Then add the multipliers (Including SSJ4) and boom 170x FTL. Bump it up to 2 seconds, still FTL. Bump it up to 3, still FTL.

#37 Posted by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: Good points there on goku's travel speed on namek. Goku's travel speed should be faster than light at namek saga. His combat speed would be faster than light before that probably saiyan saga. In battles, combat speed/reaction time should be used not travel speed. Travel speed is not really relevant in battles except for running away.

#38 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm: Well it's different for DBZ characters. If you look at the beginning of Snake Way, he flies off instantly, and that was basically his top speed, but over time, he got tired and had to resort to running. Their combat speed should be the same as their top speed, as they fight in short bursts rather than have a constant acceleration of time like Superman.

They'd sort of be like Flash, where he can go lightspeed in an instant.

#39 Edited by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

DBZ, just like comics, is inconsistent...

#40 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: I agree with your explanation. However, snake way is not 1 million km long but alot longer. The scan that says it is was saying "The legend" says its this long. Which makes it meaningless and he is being told this by a guy who never actually crossed it.

The map toriyama drew of the universe really shows how long snake way is. Its about the distance between namek and earth which is about a quarter of the universe. 1 million km was just a number to emphasize how long it is.

Pluto lies 4.67 billion miles (7.5 billion kilometers) from Earth. At their closest, the two are only 2.66 billion miles (4.28 billion km) apart. Which shows snake way is definitely more than 1 million km long.

#41 Posted by juniorA96758 (49 posts) - - Show Bio

Kid Goku is faster than light? Ha, ha, ha!

#42 Posted by tmannion0901 (13 posts) - - Show Bio

go goku!

#43 Edited by DeviousBastard (136 posts) - - Show Bio

You did all of this for a silly inconsistent kids comic? Some of those statements about lightning and light are hyperboles that even Naruto uses. Goku is as fast as the plot needs him to be. Solar Flare flare has been rather successful the vast majority of times namely against Cell saga level characters. Goku went to the moon in seconds with his power pole but it takes him a while to get to Kami's place claiming that it was far. The datebook also says that they are supersonic.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=669104&highlight=

And there is this.

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/manga/dragon-ball-care-to-explain-this-94407/

So is Goku faster than light? Only when the plot calls for it.

#44 Edited by DeviousBastard (136 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm: That's very simplistic map that has Earth being equal King Kai's planet in size or smaller. Don't take it seriously.

#45 Posted by warlock360 (28050 posts) - - Show Bio

Animes don't have the same laws of physics that we do, neither do comics to 100%. You can say he is going relatively faster than their light, at best. But since he's not time warping himself, he's not going faster than our speed of light (which is what would happen if someone were to do it with our laws), meaning our laws didn't apply there.

Superman is much more comparible to our world's physics.

#46 Edited by DeviousBastard (136 posts) - - Show Bio

@juniora96758: IKR? Wy would Mr.Popo say "you need to be faster than lightning"?

#47 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

DBZ has FTL reflexes and reactions.

It does not have FTL travel speeds. If it did, the Namek saga would have been over really quickly.

End o' story.

#48 Edited by DeviousBastard (136 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Where has that been stated? And if that is true and they can kick FTL, shouldn't they be able to run FTL?

#49 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio
#50 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@deviousbastard: I did all of this for a great show I used to watch as a kid and because deathbattle ruined a perfectly good matchup between goku and superman by lowballing goku.

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