Battle of the gods Goku's PL and potential feats calculated.

#1 Edited by DerpyHerps (2 posts) - - Show Bio

(Copied directly from my pastebin)

Let's put into perspective how overpowering goku really is, using only the DBZ canon.

Before you read any further, please note that I am using Power levels as my basis. The powerlevels I use are found here: (dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_power_levels). All power levels that I take are from the Official Daizenshuu. They represent the Maximum strength output for that character. All Powerlevels were discontinued after the frieza saga, and therefore any power level afterwards is mere speculation. I will be skewing goku here so that he is weaker than he would be, so that I can remain in line with the DBZ canon

Vegeta, during the saiyan saga has a Power level (PL) of 18,000. With it, his galick gun would've blown up earth, had goku not stopped him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiCrprzMqME).

When he first turns super saiyan, goku has a PL of 150,000,000. Assuming that all vegeta could've destroyed is the one planet, goku's power would allow him to destroy a being with power equal to 8,333.34 planets. Without progressing goku's power level any further, since there are no canon official power levels after that, we'll simply use that value and apply transformations.

SSJ1 = 150,000,000

SSJ2(SSJ1x2) = 300,000,000

SSJ3(SSJ2x4) = 1,200,000,000

((SSJ4 is uncanon, and will not be used.))

As a ssj3 without progressing goku's base power any further since the frieza saga, goku can destroy the equivilant of 66,666.67 planets

Along with this,vegeta took goku's 32,000 PL Kaio-Kenx4 kamehameha + his own 18,000 PL Galick Gun. That totals to a PL of 50,000, giving the combined beams the power to destroy 2.78 planets. From this, one can infer that saiyans can withstand an attack of equal or lesser planet-busting capability of 2.78x your own. Meaning SSJ3 goku without progression can tank an attack that can destroy 185,333.34 planets.

Goku, in dragonball runs the 100m in 8s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqFHPNSPL8U). That yeilds him a speed of 12.5 m/s. Meaning that 1PL = 1.25 m/s (for saiyans). Goku as an SSj3 would have a speed of 1,500,000,000 m/s. 5 times the speed of light (299,792,458). Applying relativity, Goku in SSJ3 would be traveling at 298,970,962. That's more than 99.7% of the speed of light (Thanks to Sunny Sanity from gaiaonline!)

Also in dragonball, a young kid goku (PL 10) is shown picking up a car and throwing it(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJMEmEuEKW0). The car seemed similar to the Mini Cooper S Countryman ALL4 (http://mt.kargo.com/entry/view/id/6255/pn/all/p/0/?KSID=bjprizxtkkz). The Cooper weighs 1.6275 tons or 3255lbs. This gives saiyans 325.5lbs/1PL of RAW lift strength, as goku was unable to utilize Ki energy at this point in the series. SSJ3 Goku without progression has a Raw lift strength of 390,600,000,000lbs, or 195,300,000 tons.

Utilizing Ki would augment goku's already immense natural physical attributes.

And to top it all off, all of these values are horrendously lower than the power level post-battle of the gods because no official values for power levels were posted for goku after the frieza saga.

However, we can manually calculate goku's PL to get closer to what it may actually be.

(Quoted from Laurcus on comicvine, edited out parts referring to SSJ4 as it is irrelevant: http://www.comicvine.com/goku/4005-19765/forums/what-is-ssj4-gokus-power-level-in-gt-740635/)

"SS1 Goku during the Frieza saga was 150 million. When Vegeta left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku stated that he would have had to have gotten 3 times stronger to even stand a chance against Semi-Perfect Cell. It's generally accepted that Goku and Vegeta were about equal pre HTC. So assuming Goku did NOT get stronger from his fight with Frieza and 4 more years of training, that puts SS1 Vegeta at 450 million. Later, when Goku leaves the time chamber, he powers up for Korin. His level of power greatly alarms Vegeta and Trunks, this indicates Goku is now greater than or equal to Vegeta. Goku then reveals to Korin that he only used about half of his power. That puts FPSS Cell saga Goku at 900 mil. Same song and dance for Gohan. Through the course of the story it's revealed he is equal to Goku. Then Gohan goes SS2, which is twice as strong as SS1 according to the Super Exciting Guide. That puts SS2 Gohan at at least 1.8 billion.

Then you get into the Buu saga. SS3 is another x4 on top of SS2, so assuming Goku didn't get any stronger in his 7 years of training, that puts him at 7.2 billion...Supreme Kai states in episode 219 that he is 1000 times stronger than Frieza. As you already pointed out, Frieza = 120 million, times 1000 and you have 120 billion. In Kibito's Daizenshuu entry, it says that Kibito could fight evenly with base form Gohan. Now, if you recall, Supreme Kai was repeatedly outmatched by the Saiyans even in base form. He was scared that even working together, they would not be able to beat Pui Pui, yet Vegeta does so easily, a feat that does not impress Goku or Gohan. It's safe to say that Gohan, (and by proxy Kibito) has a power level much higher than 120 billion at that point, in base form. For the sake of being as conservative as possible though, I'll assume Kibito has a power level of exactly 120 billion.

In the Super Exciting Guide, on page 63, it states that fusion via the earrings is in fact multiplication of power levels. That means Kibito Kai has a power level of at least 14.4 sextillion. Kibito Kai, by his own statements, as well as the statements of Old Kai, Goku and Vegeta, was so weak he would have just been in the way if he tried to fight Buu. Even when Vegeta was trying to fight Kid Buu in base form, Old Kai still warned Kibito Kai that he's too weak to help. From this we can conclude that base form Goku and Vegeta > 14.4 sextillion. Why is there such a giant gap in their power between the fight with Kid Buu and the start of the Buu saga? *shrugs* I don't know. The only thing I can think of is zenkai boosts. That, or Gohan was much much weaker than Goku and Vegeta...And as I've demonstrated, that's lowballing at every point possible, and completely ignoring Goku's 15 years of training after the fight with Kid Buu."

Meaning that by the end of the buu saga, goku's PL is 14.4 sextillion in base.

Pre-BoG Goku base

PL: 14,400,000,000,000,000,000,000

Destructive Force: 800,000,000,000,000,000 Planets

Durability: 2,224,000,000,000,000,000 Planets

Speed: 18,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 m/s (60,206,515,975,956.22 x Light)

Raw Lift: 2,343,600,000,000,000,000,000 tons

Goku can also use kaio-ken to multiply his already immense power level. He's been shown going up to kaio-ken x 20, so that's the max i'd reference. SSJ3 pre-god goku using kaio-ken x 20 allows him to destroy 1,333,333.4 planets, tank 3,706,666.9 planets, move at 30,000,000,000 m/s (80x the speed of light). His lift strength is 3,906,000,000 tons. His PL is 24,000,000,000.

Vegito is the potora fusion of goku & vegeta, and as stated above, would have goku & vegeta's power levels multiplied together. Meaning that Vegito had a PL of around 207,360,000,000,000,000,000,000,768,400,016,360,888,208,504, or 2.0736e+44 in BASE. Vegito as a Super Saiyan would be 10,368,000,000,000,000,000,000,368,720,352,568,464,216,720,200 or 1.0368e+46.

(Using http://www.easysurf.cc/scintd.htm to display values out of scientific notation)

Now to further goku's power. Please keep note that these values will still be lower than they should be, but will get you closer to what it might be at the end of BoG.

Bills is stated to be the strongest character in the history of DBZ. That means he trumps vegito. SSJ1 Goku after attaining super saiyan god is shown to be on par with bills. Bills must be stronger than Vegito, but there is no value to give him. He may be 1.1x stronger or 100x stronger. I don't know. But what I do know is that...

SSJ1 goku post BoG = Bills > SSJ3 Goku Pre-BoG

SSJ1 = 10,368,000,000,000,000,000,000,368,720,352,568,464,216,720,200 (1.0368e+46)

SSJ2(SSJ1x2) = 20,736,000,000,000,000,000,000,736,440,704,136,928,432,440,400 (2.0736e+46)

SSJ3(SSJ2x4) = 82,944,000,000,000,000,000,000,944,760,816,544,712,728,760,600 (8.2944e+46)

With these values...

Destructive Power: 4,607,999,999,999,999,488,712,088,728,448,976,984,864,888 Planets

Durability: 12,810,240,000,000,002,048,152,560,088,416,368,320,448,224 Planets

Speed: 103,680,000,000,000,000,000,000,384,200,008,680,944,104,752,496 m/sec (346,789,532,021,507,840,472,584,848,560,232,928,288 xSpeed of Light)

Raw Lift: 13,499,136,000,000,002,048,152,056,752,928,128,272,528,424,048 Tons

Apply Kaio-kenx20

PL: 1,658,880,000,000,000,000,000,000,144,200,128,880,104,664,032,936 (1.65888e+48)

Destructive Power: 91,260,000,000,000,000,000,968,440,024,576,296,560,096,200 Planets

Durability: 256,204,800,000,000,000,000,000,056,304,376,128,440,552,480 Planets

Speed: 2,073,600,000,000,000,256,144,456,888,320,904,920,696,400,384,176 m/sec (6,935,790,640,430,156,776,296,048,792,824,128,128,848 xSpeed of Light)

Raw Lift: 269,982,719,999,999,936,464,136,608,336,656,480,088,744,688,976 Tons

His destructive force alone is enough to destroy the Universe 92,160,000,000,000,000,000 times over, and survive the explosion. (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/01/05/how-many-planets-are-in-the-universe/ calcs the number of planets in our universe at about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.)

#2 Posted by JasonHawke (1273 posts) - - Show Bio

So what you're saying is.... that Goku is very strong?

#3 Posted by Lvenger (19233 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh god another Dragon Ball thread making insane calculations about Goku's power level. It's not like this'll turn into a raging argument of DBZ fanboys vs comic fans.

#4 Posted by IamTheLaw85 (68 posts) - - Show Bio

Where did you get all these numbers and calculations? Its like they were all made up.

#5 Posted by ComicStooge (12525 posts) - - Show Bio

...This is why I hate calcs. You can literally make a character as strong as you want by adding a bunch of numbers together, ignoring all feats.

#6 Edited by Temporal_Guardian (319 posts) - - Show Bio

You're supposed to look at a feat, see what laws of physics and equations apply to it, and then calc it down with established mathematical equations to establish what exactly doing this feat entails.

You're not supposed to take in universe measuring sticks that the creators themselves admit are useless and run them through a number cruncher.

You are definitely not supposed to make up variables for your equations without reasonable scientific estimates and equations.

@comicstooge: Someone failed science class.

Without calcs we get stupid things like people thinking a Reaper can beat the Death star in spite of the death star possessing orders of magnitude more firepower.

#7 Posted by DerpyHerps (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@temporal_guardian: If you could tell me where I've made up a varriable, i'll revise it.

As for using power levels rather than real-world physics, DBZ doesnt seem to follow our world's physics. Hercule gets smacked into a mountain, levels it and survives during the cell games.

Goku goes to the moon on a magic pole and doesnt burn up while exoting/entering the atmosphere, nor does her or the people he took up die of asphixiation.

Applying real-world concepts to comics is jut a bad idea.

@iamthelaw85: Find a feat, find the PL at the time the feat was preformed, scale it

@lvenger: i hope it doesnt. It never ends well and only causes butthurt fanboying.

#8 Edited by alcoholbob (1192 posts) - - Show Bio

In Battle of Gods, Bills states Base Goku is weaker than Freeza, so there's no realistic way he's more than 115 million, much less the obscene 14,400,000,000,000,000,000,000 number you give.

Also, Kaioshin never stated he was 1000 times stronger than Freeza, he merely said Kaios could 1-shot Freeza. In Dragonball we've had characters with only 20% more power than another character 1-shot the other. Kaio could be only a few times stronger than Freeza and the statement would be still accurate.

#9 Posted by Lvenger (19233 posts) - - Show Bio

In Battle of Gods, Bills states Base Goku is weaker than Freeza, so there's no realistic way he's more than 115 million, much less the obscene 14,400,000,000,000,000,000,000 number you give.

Also, Kaioshin never stated he was 1000 times stronger than Freeza, he merely said Kaios could 1-shot Freeza. In Dragonball we've had characters with only 20% more power than another character 1-shot the other. Kaio could be only a few times stronger than Freeza and the statement would be still accurate.

See this is why I hate the comparison between comic and anime feats. The measurements for each are wholly different from each other.

#10 Posted by theamazingbatman (1955 posts) - - Show Bio

In Battle of Gods, Bills states Base Goku is weaker than Freeza, so there's no realistic way he's more than 115 million, much less the obscene 14,400,000,000,000,000,000,000 number you give.

Also, Kaioshin never stated he was 1000 times stronger than Freeza, he merely said Kaios could 1-shot Freeza. In Dragonball we've had characters with only 20% more power than another character 1-shot the other. Kaio could be only a few times stronger than Freeza and the statement would be still accurate.

Another example of dbz's inconsistency . When goku fought cooler , cooler agreed that base form goku was stronger than frieza. And kaioshin did say that they were thousand times stronger than frieza.

#11 Edited by theamazingbatman (1955 posts) - - Show Bio

(Copied directly from my pastebin)

Let's put into perspective how overpowering goku really is, using only the DBZ canon.

Before you read any further, please note that I am using Power levels as my basis. The powerlevels I use are found here: (dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_power_levels). All power levels that I take are from the Official Daizenshuu. They represent the Maximum strength output for that character. All Powerlevels were discontinued after the frieza saga, and therefore any power level afterwards is mere speculation. I will be skewing goku here so that he is weaker than he would be, so that I can remain in line with the DBZ canon

Vegeta, during the saiyan saga has a Power level (PL) of 18,000. With it, his galick gun would've blown up earth, had goku not stopped him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiCrprzMqME).

When he first turns super saiyan, goku has a PL of 150,000,000. Assuming that all vegeta could've destroyed is the one planet, goku's power would allow him to destroy a being with power equal to 8,333.34 planets. Without progressing goku's power level any further, since there are no canon official power levels after that, we'll simply use that value and apply transformations.

SSJ1 = 150,000,000

SSJ2(SSJ1x2) = 300,000,000

SSJ3(SSJ2x4) = 1,200,000,000

((SSJ4 is uncanon, and will not be used.))

As a ssj3 without progressing goku's base power any further since the frieza saga, goku can destroy the equivilant of 66,666.67 planets

Along with this,vegeta took goku's 32,000 PL Kaio-Kenx4 kamehameha + his own 18,000 PL Galick Gun. That totals to a PL of 50,000, giving the combined beams the power to destroy 2.78 planets. From this, one can infer that saiyans can withstand an attack of equal or lesser planet-busting capability of 2.78x your own. Meaning SSJ3 goku without progression can tank an attack that can destroy 185,333.34 planets.

Goku, in dragonball runs the 100m in 8s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqFHPNSPL8U). That yeilds him a speed of 12.5 m/s. Meaning that 1PL = 1.25 m/s (for saiyans). Goku as an SSj3 would have a speed of 1,500,000,000 m/s. 5 times the speed of light (299,792,458). Applying relativity, Goku in SSJ3 would be traveling at 298,970,962. That's more than 99.7% of the speed of light (Thanks to Sunny Sanity from gaiaonline!)

Also in dragonball, a young kid goku (PL 10) is shown picking up a car and throwing it(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJMEmEuEKW0). The car seemed similar to the Mini Cooper S Countryman ALL4 (http://mt.kargo.com/entry/view/id/6255/pn/all/p/0/?KSID=bjprizxtkkz). The Cooper weighs 1.6275 tons or 3255lbs. This gives saiyans 325.5lbs/1PL of RAW lift strength, as goku was unable to utilize Ki energy at this point in the series. SSJ3 Goku without progression has a Raw lift strength of 390,600,000,000lbs, or 195,300,000 tons.

Utilizing Ki would augment goku's already immense natural physical attributes.

And to top it all off, all of these values are horrendously lower than the power level post-battle of the gods because no official values for power levels were posted for goku after the frieza saga.

However, we can manually calculate goku's PL to get closer to what it may actually be.

(Quoted from Laurcus on comicvine, edited out parts referring to SSJ4 as it is irrelevant: http://www.comicvine.com/goku/4005-19765/forums/what-is-ssj4-gokus-power-level-in-gt-740635/)

"SS1 Goku during the Frieza saga was 150 million. When Vegeta left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku stated that he would have had to have gotten 3 times stronger to even stand a chance against Semi-Perfect Cell. It's generally accepted that Goku and Vegeta were about equal pre HTC. So assuming Goku did NOT get stronger from his fight with Frieza and 4 more years of training, that puts SS1 Vegeta at 450 million. Later, when Goku leaves the time chamber, he powers up for Korin. His level of power greatly alarms Vegeta and Trunks, this indicates Goku is now greater than or equal to Vegeta. Goku then reveals to Korin that he only used about half of his power. That puts FPSS Cell saga Goku at 900 mil. Same song and dance for Gohan. Through the course of the story it's revealed he is equal to Goku. Then Gohan goes SS2, which is twice as strong as SS1 according to the Super Exciting Guide. That puts SS2 Gohan at at least 1.8 billion.

Then you get into the Buu saga. SS3 is another x4 on top of SS2, so assuming Goku didn't get any stronger in his 7 years of training, that puts him at 7.2 billion...Supreme Kai states in episode 219 that he is 1000 times stronger than Frieza. As you already pointed out, Frieza = 120 million, times 1000 and you have 120 billion. In Kibito's Daizenshuu entry, it says that Kibito could fight evenly with base form Gohan. Now, if you recall, Supreme Kai was repeatedly outmatched by the Saiyans even in base form. He was scared that even working together, they would not be able to beat Pui Pui, yet Vegeta does so easily, a feat that does not impress Goku or Gohan. It's safe to say that Gohan, (and by proxy Kibito) has a power level much higher than 120 billion at that point, in base form. For the sake of being as conservative as possible though, I'll assume Kibito has a power level of exactly 120 billion.

In the Super Exciting Guide, on page 63, it states that fusion via the earrings is in fact multiplication of power levels. That means Kibito Kai has a power level of at least 14.4 sextillion. Kibito Kai, by his own statements, as well as the statements of Old Kai, Goku and Vegeta, was so weak he would have just been in the way if he tried to fight Buu. Even when Vegeta was trying to fight Kid Buu in base form, Old Kai still warned Kibito Kai that he's too weak to help. From this we can conclude that base form Goku and Vegeta > 14.4 sextillion. Why is there such a giant gap in their power between the fight with Kid Buu and the start of the Buu saga? *shrugs* I don't know. The only thing I can think of is zenkai boosts. That, or Gohan was much much weaker than Goku and Vegeta...And as I've demonstrated, that's lowballing at every point possible, and completely ignoring Goku's 15 years of training after the fight with Kid Buu."

Meaning that by the end of the buu saga, goku's PL is 14.4 sextillion in base.

Pre-BoG Goku base

PL: 14,400,000,000,000,000,000,000

Destructive Force: 800,000,000,000,000,000 Planets

Durability: 2,224,000,000,000,000,000 Planets

Speed: 18,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 m/s (60,206,515,975,956.22 x Light)

Raw Lift: 2,343,600,000,000,000,000,000 tons

Goku can also use kaio-ken to multiply his already immense power level. He's been shown going up to kaio-ken x 20, so that's the max i'd reference. SSJ3 pre-god goku using kaio-ken x 20 allows him to destroy 1,333,333.4 planets, tank 3,706,666.9 planets, move at 30,000,000,000 m/s (80x the speed of light). His lift strength is 3,906,000,000 tons. His PL is 24,000,000,000.

Vegito is the potora fusion of goku & vegeta, and as stated above, would have goku & vegeta's power levels multiplied together. Meaning that Vegito had a PL of around 207,360,000,000,000,000,000,000,768,400,016,360,888,208,504, or 2.0736e+44 in BASE. Vegito as a Super Saiyan would be 10,368,000,000,000,000,000,000,368,720,352,568,464,216,720,200 or 1.0368e+46.

(Using http://www.easysurf.cc/scintd.htm to display values out of scientific notation)

Now to further goku's power. Please keep note that these values will still be lower than they should be, but will get you closer to what it might be at the end of BoG.

Bills is stated to be the strongest character in the history of DBZ. That means he trumps vegito. SSJ1 Goku after attaining super saiyan god is shown to be on par with bills. Bills must be stronger than Vegito, but there is no value to give him. He may be 1.1x stronger or 100x stronger. I don't know. But what I do know is that...

SSJ1 goku post BoG = Bills > SSJ3 Goku Pre-BoG

SSJ1 = 10,368,000,000,000,000,000,000,368,720,352,568,464,216,720,200 (1.0368e+46)

SSJ2(SSJ1x2) = 20,736,000,000,000,000,000,000,736,440,704,136,928,432,440,400 (2.0736e+46)

SSJ3(SSJ2x4) = 82,944,000,000,000,000,000,000,944,760,816,544,712,728,760,600 (8.2944e+46)

With these values...

Destructive Power: 4,607,999,999,999,999,488,712,088,728,448,976,984,864,888 Planets

Durability: 12,810,240,000,000,002,048,152,560,088,416,368,320,448,224 Planets

Speed: 103,680,000,000,000,000,000,000,384,200,008,680,944,104,752,496 m/sec (346,789,532,021,507,840,472,584,848,560,232,928,288 xSpeed of Light)

Raw Lift: 13,499,136,000,000,002,048,152,056,752,928,128,272,528,424,048 Tons

Apply Kaio-kenx20

PL: 1,658,880,000,000,000,000,000,000,144,200,128,880,104,664,032,936 (1.65888e+48)

Destructive Power: 91,260,000,000,000,000,000,968,440,024,576,296,560,096,200 Planets

Durability: 256,204,800,000,000,000,000,000,056,304,376,128,440,552,480 Planets

Speed: 2,073,600,000,000,000,256,144,456,888,320,904,920,696,400,384,176 m/sec (6,935,790,640,430,156,776,296,048,792,824,128,128,848 xSpeed of Light)

Raw Lift: 269,982,719,999,999,936,464,136,608,336,656,480,088,744,688,976 Tons

His destructive force alone is enough to destroy the Universe 92,160,000,000,000,000,000 times over, and survive the explosion. (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/01/05/how-many-planets-are-in-the-universe/ calcs the number of planets in our universe at about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.)

Good one , but at the end you state that he can destroy 91260000000000000000968440024576296560096200 and that he there are 1000000000000000000000000 planets in the universe and he can destroy the destroy the universe 92160000000000000000 times over but this is wrong . There aren't just planets in the universe, there are stars , black holes etc etc. Each star is at least million time bigger than earth and there are zillions of stars at the least in our universe. So Goku may be able to destroy all the planets in the universe but he can not destroy all of the universe.

#12 Edited by sergioRbenitez (7 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't use calculations, I'll use relative feats. Here's my take.

Most debates I've seen on here downplay Goku, no one explains what he can do. People also like to say he hasn't proved he's MFTL despite Toriyama saying they are MFTL post frieza saga. They say they've shown no feats in MFTL, but everytime they fight, technically no one can see them. WE can see them because we need to in order to enjoy the anime, that doesn't mean they're not fighting at MFTL. It'd be silly of them to explain they're moving at MFTL speeds when fighting if their opponents are doing the same. How would people like them to prove it? Anyways, its proven in the new movie regardless. SSGod Goku = Bills, and Bills/Whis transverse the whole universe across galaxies from their realm to Earth in just 26min, which is well above light speed. Also, anyone that is MFTL can technically do an Infinite Mass Punch, which has been proven to to be moon busting. I heard it hits like a white dwarf star, but is that a hyperbole? Regardless, Bills destroys stars & solar systems in an instant. Not a hyperbole, because it's spoken of in past tense as he's already done it before. Piccolo even says Bills would destroy the galaxy, but I think that is a hyperbole. He also physically moon busts many moons back-to-back in his realm. This means SSG Goku can do all those feats as well, as he is asked if he'd like to be the next God of Destruction implying he has the same destructive ability. At only SS3 he punched a hole through King Kai's planet which is 10x the gravity/density of Earth despite being smaller. In the series & manga, at only SS3 his power shook the entire earth & could be felt across the universe and realms of the Supreme Kai (www.screwattack.com/news/response-debunking-gokus-feats-and-misconceptions). Now at SSG, he's way stronger than that & he currently only 10% weaker than Bills, they fight as near equals.

DC villains are more or a universal threat however. My take on why DC villains are more dangerous than DBZ villains however, deals with DC villains individual abilities/powers (such as wielding big bangs). In DBZ, villains and heroes all virtually have the same powers, just different power levels. In comparison, it would be as if all Superman's enemies were tougher & tougher Zods each time. So, who Superman has beat doesn't relate to his own power. Know what I mean? Kind of hard to explain. If Superman beats a universe buster, it doesn't mean he can bust a universe. Usually the universe busters in DC simply have that ability, it doesn't correlate to their fighting strength & ability in which Supes can match (Anti monitor an exception). So my view, is that if I can prove Goku is on par with modern canon Supes, Goku could swap places with him in the DC universe and beat the same people Superman has beat. Therefore using comparisons of who beat who is kind of irrelevant. However, in DBZ, since the villains are simply tougher "Zods" to our "Supermen", the power does relate to Goku's own power. If two are equally powerful, they are capable of the same amount of destruction.

At only SS2 Goku fired a kamehameha energy attack that would blow up the Earth. Goku also has instant transmission aka teleportation. Unlike how people claim he needs to concentrate to use it, that is false. People using that excuse fail to mention, was that Goku was moving many people at once and needed to know where to go in that setting. In battle, it takes no concentration whatsoever and he uses it many times back-to-back to cut angles & strike repeatedly against Bills during their fight. Also during their fight, they fight THROUGH the earths crust, punching eachother & busting through it as easy as moving through air. A hot knife through butter. That means they're hitting each other harder than is need to topple mountains. They later take the fight into outer space, where Goku breaths just fine. The SSG transformation has a time limit, but it's irrelevant, as Goku absorbs the power into his own so that he is just as powerful as SSG at his normal SS form now. All the feats Bills can do, Goku is now capable of.

Goku has survived blasts that have multi-planet busting ability. He did escape Namek blowing up when he was only SS1. Plus he took punches from a moon busting Bills. Goku has trained martial arts/techniques under different masters & Gods and he trains every single day of every year. His pure fighting skill is amazing. Goku uses all of his limbs, including cutting angles, teleporting, & every power in his arsenal... constantly. Goku's constantly getting stronger, (and other saiyans) especially gets stronger after a defeat. The worse they are beaten the stronger they are when they heal (all they need to heal is a sinzu bean). That's why Vegeta once got beaten into within an inch of his life on purpose, so he'd be that much stronger when he healed up.

In conclusion, SSG Goku is also more powerful than any GT version, yet slightly weaker than Bills & Whis, which says something because he used a Universal Spirit Bomb in GT which gathered energy from the whole universe into one attack. Goku can wipe out a star, solar system, planets, etc. Hopefully, I've informed you all to the extent of Goku's power. He has been majorly downplayed in most debates I've seen on here. Everything I've stated has been proven in the new movie, or done in the series, and most can be found at (dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Gods) . You can follow the links provided in the article.

(Also, I only used DC/Superman to make a comparison and explain the extent of Goku's power. Not talking shit on Superman)

#13 Edited by ad00 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@sergiorbenitez:

In conclusion, SSG Goku is also more powerful than any GT version, yet slightly weaker than Bills & Whis, which says something because he used a Universal Spirit Bomb in GT which gathered energy from the whole universe into one attack. Goku can wipe out a star, solar system, planets, etc. Hopefully, I've informed you all to the extent of Goku's power. He has been majorly downplayed in most debates I've seen on here. Everything I've stated has been proven in the new movie, or done in the series, and most can be found at (dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Gods) . You can follow the links provided in the article.

So you are saying even Stronger SS4 Gogeta but how ?

#14 Edited by sergioRbenitez (7 posts) - - Show Bio
@ad00 said:

@sergiorbenitez:

In conclusion, SSG Goku is also more powerful than any GT version, yet slightly weaker than Bills & Whis, which says something because he used a Universal Spirit Bomb in GT which gathered energy from the whole universe into one attack. Goku can wipe out a star, solar system, planets, etc. Hopefully, I've informed you all to the extent of Goku's power. He has been majorly downplayed in most debates I've seen on here. Everything I've stated has been proven in the new movie, or done in the series, and most can be found at (dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Gods) . You can follow the links provided in the article.

So you are saying even Stronger SS4 Gogeta but how ?

This movie/manga was basically to discredit GT. In GT, SS4 is kind of viewed as the truest form of an original Super Saiyan. However, SSG is viewed as the legend of the original Super Saiyan GOD. So, my logic tells me that's stronger than SS4 Goku. SS4 Gogeta is hard to say. Also, In my opinion GT is a different universe which although based after DBZ's events, does not include being after Battle of Gods' events because BoG was created after GT. So, GT is stronger than SS3 Goku, but SS3 doesn't hold a candle to SSG nor SS4 Gogeta... so this is where the debate really begins. I can't say how much or little SSG is stronger than SS4 Gogeta. I'd think he is though being a God version of Super Saiyan, but I'm up to compare feats. How do you see SS4 Gogeta as stronger?

I'm on the side that doesn't really believe base GT kid goku is stronger than end-of-DBZ SS3, not even SS2. Yes, he fights someone who's said to be as strong as majin buu (I imagine the fat one), but by the end of the buu saga & in the new movie, all the saiyan z-fighters are on par with Buu (SS2 Vegeta even surpasses SS3 Goku). GT Goku also toys with frieza/cell, but i'm sure post buu saga, once again my opinion is that the saiyan z-fighters could do the same. I don't consider GT taking the PL multiplier into account when they were creating it. Feats being shown, and the damage created in their fights, I don't think GT Goku is much stronger than end-of-DBZ goku. Especially since he can't use instant transmission or SS3 very long. Also, DBZ super gogeta (not even SS4) is listed as having a stronger power level than GT Omega Shenron (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels). This further complicates why I doubt GT kid Goku is stronger than adult DBZ goku, even though in GT he says he didnt feel a loss of power. The universes are different. In my opinion SSG Goku outclasses Omega Shenron as bad as SS4 Gogeta did, but SSG Goku doesn't have to worry about losing his power.

#15 Edited by ad00 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@sergiorbenitez:

This movie/manga was basically to discredit GT. In GT, SS4 is kind of viewed as the truest form of an original Super Saiyan. However, SSG is viewed as the legend of the original Super Saiyan GOD. So, my logic tells me that's stronger than SS4 Goku. SS4 Gogeta is hard to say. Also, In my opinion GT is a different universe which although based after DBZ's events, does not include being after Battle of Gods' events because BoG was created after GT. So, GT is stronger than SS3 Goku, but SS3 doesn't hold a candle to SSG nor SS4 Gogeta... so this is where the debate really begins. I can't say how much or little SSG is stronger than SS4 Gogeta. I'd think he is though being a God version of Super Saiyan, but I'm up to compare feats. How do you see SS4 Gogeta as stronger?

I'm on the side that doesn't really believe base GT kid goku is stronger than end-of-DBZ SS3, not even SS2. Yes, he fights someone who's said to be as strong as majin buu (I imagine the fat one), but by the end of the buu saga & in the new movie, all the saiyan z-fighters are on par with Buu (SS2 Vegeta even surpasses SS3 Goku). GT Goku also toys with frieza/cell, but i'm sure post buu saga, once again my opinion is that the saiyan z-fighters could do the same. I don't consider GT taking the PL multiplier into account when they were creating it. Feats being shown, and the damage created in their fights, I don't think GT Goku is much stronger than end-of-DBZ goku. Especially since he can't use instant transmission or SS3 very long. Also, DBZ super gogeta (not even SS4) is listed as having a stronger power level than GT Omega Shenron (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels). This further complicates why I doubt GT kid Goku is stronger than adult DBZ goku, even though in GT he says he didnt feel a loss of power. The universes are different. In my opinion SSG Goku outclasses Omega Shenron as bad as SS4 Gogeta did, but SSG Goku doesn't have to worry about losing his power.

Bro, i see You have taken a lot of trouble writing that. i will keep in mind what you said about SS4 Gogeta vs Super Sayain God

But Goku in 17 Saga got a big boost his Base is strong as 2xDBZ SS3 Goku non fused. Goku already said in Hell now i am stronger than ever to Cell and Freza

17 Saga Goku 2.3 times Stronger than 17 Saga Vegeta

Majuub coud not move Super 17 with his full power. Only Vegeta SS2 and Goku SS1 could move him

At the end of GT Shenron Goku base was little stronger than Omega shenron Full power. Imagine after Shenron Saga GT how Strong Goku would be. SS4 is a ape Transformation it mean full potential of the Sayain power he can use.

People who say Vegeto is Strong as SS4 are the one who says SSG is Stronger than SS4 but they are wrong

Bro, to be honest to you Goku got a lot Stronger than his was in DBZ as some say GT was 15 years later after DBZ.

SSG wont able to beat 17 Saga SS4 Goku. Gogeta is way about that. Unless SSG has magic he cannot beat 17 saga SS4 Goku nor Gogeta in Strenth or raw power

#16 Posted by sergioRbenitez (7 posts) - - Show Bio
@ad00 said:

@sergiorbenitez:

This movie/manga was basically to discredit GT. In GT, SS4 is kind of viewed as the truest form of an original Super Saiyan. However, SSG is viewed as the legend of the original Super Saiyan GOD. So, my logic tells me that's stronger than SS4 Goku. SS4 Gogeta is hard to say. Also, In my opinion GT is a different universe which although based after DBZ's events, does not include being after Battle of Gods' events because BoG was created after GT. So, GT is stronger than SS3 Goku, but SS3 doesn't hold a candle to SSG nor SS4 Gogeta... so this is where the debate really begins. I can't say how much or little SSG is stronger than SS4 Gogeta. I'd think he is though being a God version of Super Saiyan, but I'm up to compare feats. How do you see SS4 Gogeta as stronger?

I'm on the side that doesn't really believe base GT kid goku is stronger than end-of-DBZ SS3, not even SS2. Yes, he fights someone who's said to be as strong as majin buu (I imagine the fat one), but by the end of the buu saga & in the new movie, all the saiyan z-fighters are on par with Buu (SS2 Vegeta even surpasses SS3 Goku). GT Goku also toys with frieza/cell, but i'm sure post buu saga, once again my opinion is that the saiyan z-fighters could do the same. I don't consider GT taking the PL multiplier into account when they were creating it. Feats being shown, and the damage created in their fights, I don't think GT Goku is much stronger than end-of-DBZ goku. Especially since he can't use instant transmission or SS3 very long. Also, DBZ super gogeta (not even SS4) is listed as having a stronger power level than GT Omega Shenron (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels). This further complicates why I doubt GT kid Goku is stronger than adult DBZ goku, even though in GT he says he didnt feel a loss of power. The universes are different. In my opinion SSG Goku outclasses Omega Shenron as bad as SS4 Gogeta did, but SSG Goku doesn't have to worry about losing his power.

Bro, i see You have taken a lot of trouble writing that. i will keep in mind what you said about SS4 Gogeta vs Super Sayain God

But Goku in 17 Saga got a big boost his Base is strong as 2xDBZ SS3 Goku non fused. Goku already said in Hell now i am stronger than ever to Cell and Freza

17 Saga Goku 2.3 times Stronger than 17 Saga Vegeta

Majuub coud not move Super 17 with his full power. Only Vegeta SS2 and Goku SS1 could move him

At the end of GT Shenron Goku base was little stronger than Omega shenron Full power. Imagine after Shenron Saga GT how Strong Goku would be. SS4 is a ape Transformation it mean full potential of the Sayain power he can use.

People who say Vegeto is Strong as SS4 are the one who says SSG is Stronger than SS4 but they are wrong

Bro, to be honest to you Goku got a lot Stronger than his was in DBZ as some say GT was 15 years later after DBZ.

SSG wont able to beat 17 Saga SS4 Goku. Gogeta is way about that. Unless SSG has magic he cannot beat 17 saga SS4 Goku nor Gogeta in Strenth or raw power

Honestly, I'd have to rewatch GT. It's been some years, and other than the fights scenes, i didnt pay that close attention lol. Like I was saying though, I dont think the writers took the multiplier into account for the 10-15 years between DBZ & GT. That's all just my opinion though. He said he was stronger than ever, but like I said, I'll have to watch it again. I don't know if he's just saying his base form is stronger than his base form has ever been, or if he actually means he's stronger than DBZ SS3. When frieza came back in DBZ he was supposedly way stronger than when Goku beat him & SS Trunks disposed of him like nothing. So, i'm sure any base form saiyan could beat Frieza easy by the end of cell saga & after the hyperbolic time chamber, and cell with a weak SS1 form after buu saga. Omega Shenron just didn't seem as impressive to me as the feats Bills was said to be able to do. I'm not going to say I'm right about SSG being stronger than SS4 Gogeta, as I honestly don't know GT well enough to say (even though I have watched the whole thing).

When Goku achieved & felt the power of SSG he said he would never have been able to achieve that power on his own, no matter how much he would've trained. And SSG is not included in the original DBZ saga, so even though it's before the end of DBZ, the end of DBZ itself hadn't taken SSG into account. End-of-Battle of Gods Goku is stronger than the original end of DBZ goku. Of course you could apply it to the end of DBZ now, as nothing happened at the end to show Goku's power anyways. However, I don't feel it can really be said for GT. I could see the argument that it can too, but I feel because BoG kind of discredits it, GT isn't canon and can't apply it. This is all opinion though, not saying I'm really right.

#17 Posted by Vegetto1990 (102 posts) - - Show Bio

GT is not part of the original canon DBZ storyline and manga. SSJ God is the strongest SSJ form in canon, that automatically disregards SSJ4 as being the stronger form no matter how you put it. Theirs also facts and feats to back up SSJG >>> SSJ4.

Before BOG'S came out Super Vegetto was the strongest in Z. His Battle Power was Goku's "multiplied" by vegeta's. This is insane considering both goku and vegeta are in the multi millions in their regular forms and high billions in their SSJ forms. This puts Super Vegetto stronger than any GT character. No matter how much goku improved in GT his battle power wouldn't be remotely close to Super vegetto's. Just to give an example, Ginyu's battle power was 120,000, if we multiply that number to itself we get 14,400,000,000. LMAO. That's 14 Billion 400Mill. This is from someone only in the early hundred thousands so if we logically multiply anything on the level where goku and vegeta is at in the buu saga, you will get a ridiculous result.

SSJG, Bills and Whis were the "strongest" guys toriyama and his crew made. He literally said they were at the point where their was "Nothing higher" (At the time), so those 3 are stronger than even super vegetto. Toriyama said Goku was a 6, Bills a 10 and whis a 15. So 100% God goku would be 60% of bills full power. Whis is a little over 2x stronger (6+6=12, whis is a 15) than god goku which is insane. SSJ4 gogeta made Omega shenron look like a child.

Whis > Bills > SSJG > SSJ4 gogeta > Super vegetto > SSJ4

#18 Edited by kuartus4 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

There's no way Goku's power level is 14.4 sextillion in base. Probably not even in God mode.

In Battle of the Gods Beerus comments that he doesn't think base Goku could defeat frieza. Lets be nice to Goku. Beerus didn't actually say that base Goku would lose either, just that he would not win. So we can interpret that to mean that the most Beerus sees Goku doing is stalemating Frieza. The official dbz guide gives frieza's power level as 120 million. So I'll say that's base goku's power level as well. With the 50x super saiyan boost, Goku's PL would rise to 6 billion. With the 2x ssj2 boost it would rise to 12 billion. With the 4x ssj3 boost it would rise to 48 billion. As for Super Saiyan God Goku, all that's said by Goku is that its the greatest power he has ever felt, and since he felt super vegetto's power, that means Super Sayan God Goku>Super Vegetto. . So How strong is Super Vegetto?

The official guide says Vegetto who was the result of a potara fusion, had a power level equal to goku's and vegeta's PL multiplied by each other.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/

Goku and Vegeta post majin were completely even up to ssj2, so I calculate Both of them to be at 5.25 billion in SSJ mode during the buu saga. So Super Saiyan Vegetto should be at 27.5 quintillion

or 27,500,000,000,000,000,000.

Ridiculous, I know. And Super Saiyan God Goku is higher than that. Still much lower than 1.03e+46 though which is what the OP claims.

#19 Posted by JetiiMitra (8478 posts) - - Show Bio

ew math

#20 Posted by Wolfus (37 posts) - - Show Bio

@kuartus4 said:

There's no way Goku's power level is 14.4 sextillion in base. Probably not even in God mode.

In Battle of the Gods Beerus comments that he doesn't think base Goku could defeat frieza. Lets be nice to Goku. Beerus didn't actually say that base Goku would lose either, just that he would not win. So we can interpret that to mean that the most Beerus sees Goku doing is stalemating Frieza. The official dbz guide gives frieza's power level as 120 million. So I'll say that's base goku's power level as well. With the 50x super saiyan boost, Goku's PL would rise to 6 billion. With the 2x ssj2 boost it would rise to 12 billion. With the 4x ssj3 boost it would rise to 48 billion. As for Super Saiyan God Goku, all that's said by Goku is that its the greatest power he has ever felt, and since he felt super vegetto's power, that means Super Sayan God Goku>Super Vegetto. . So How strong is Super Vegetto?

The official guide says Vegetto who was the result of a potara fusion, had a power level equal to goku's and vegeta's PL multiplied by each other.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/

Goku and Vegeta post majin were completely even up to ssj2, so I calculate Both of them to be at 5.25 billion in SSJ mode during the buu saga. So Super Saiyan Vegetto should be at 27.5 quintillion

or 27,500,000,000,000,000,000.

Ridiculous, I know. And Super Saiyan God Goku is higher than that. Still much lower than 1.03e+46 though which is what the OP claims.

I agree with this.

However, I don't think bills sensed all of goku's power in base. When he saw goku and thought that he couldn't defeat frieza , it was probably because goku was "hiding" his base form, or not releasing his full energy. After all, he was relaxing with king kai, so there would be no reason for him to be at full power in base form.

Considering this, I believe that goku in base form majin buu saga= super saiyan goku frieza saga, due to the fact that the supreme kai could defeat frieza, and base goku was arround his level.

These numbers are indeed ridiculous. Too big.

However, i believe that they MIGHT be used to calculate speed and power if usen properly, but without assumptions. I guess we can only calculate goku's speed and power until SSJ3, because we have no idea on how powerful ssj god is.

But it's safe to say that ssj god goku might be galaxy buster. Why is that? Because wiss said it himself that "galaxies get destroiedwhen bills same gets upset", which indicates a habit of bills, so it probably happened before. As dbz is purely based on raw power, it's safe to use A>B>C logic. So, as goku ssj god 80% managed to keep up with bills 70%, and bills is a galaxy buster, goku ssj god might be a galaxy buster too.

And that's where I think it stops. So far, dbz has shown nothingsuperior than that, so goku is, best case scenario, a galaxy buster.

#21 Edited by JetiiMitra (8478 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone forgot to divide by 1x(10^17)x(10^17) because of the difference in physics. These numbers are invalid.

#22 Posted by SlimJ87D (9644 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of this thread makes a lot of assumptions that power level is linear with stats.

That is wrong. Trunks is an example of someone that almost doubled his Pl but didn't increase his speed fast enough to fight cell.

#23 Posted by Superlightning123 (1318 posts) - - Show Bio

How about we take Goku's feats, and then determine how strong he is from that? Super Saiyan 3 is able to bust planets by punching them. King Kai's planet was 10x durable then earth. The gravity had more force. So it takes more effort to bust his planet than earth. Give Goku a super Saiyan 2- super Saiyan god and then maybe the comic fans might listen. No scaling. Take what Goku has done and go from there. I'm a super fan of Goku. But we gotta be realistic

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