Why all the hate for him?

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#1 Edited by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio

Since I've been on here, I've noticed that many, ( and I mean many ) people on here have expressed much hate for Geoff Johns and his work. Something I never understood as he's easily a favorite writer of mine and I consider him to be probably the best writer at DC right now. I've only been reading comics for less than a year so I don't care about retcons or character changes as I haven't been reading long enough to care about those things. I should also say Barry Allen is a far better Flash than Wally was and replacing Kyle Rayner with Hal Jordan was a big mistake.  So why do so many fans hate him?

#2 Posted by Hoboseid (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

Too much influence on DC, he's a sucker for remakes and revamps, has a boner for Superboy Prime....a really annoying version of Superman, too much creative control over DC, he turned the Godlike Guardians into boring senile little old smurfs, you get too much Johns' retcons, a sicken sense of humor you see in a horror gore movie, he likes telling stories with big splash pages like Bendis but he does writer better than him, he's a big fan of the silver age drama which was a really boring period in comics, he's always pushing retroactive continuity or continuity that generally one that renders entire volumes, years or even decades worth of prior comic book stories invalid, he too much say over DC's major arcs, helped make the GL movie, a turkey, one of WB's most expensive flops in movie history.

#3 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (12564 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hoboseid said:

Too much influence on DC, he's a sucker for remakes and revamps, has a boner for Superboy Prime....a really annoying version of Superman, too much creative control over DC, he turned the Godlike Guardians into boring senile little old smurfs, you get too much Johns' retcons, a sicken sense of humor you see in a horror gore movie, he likes telling stories with big splash pages like Bendis but he does writer better than him, he's a big fan of the silver age drama which was a really boring period in comics, he's always pushing retroactive continuity or continuity that generally one that renders entire volumes, years or even decades worth of prior comic book stories invalid, he too much say over DC's major arcs, helped make the GL movie, a turkey, one of WB's most expensive flops in movie history.


pretty much this. i dont think anyone actually hates Geoff though, just some of the liberties he takes
#4 Posted by The Stegman (23140 posts) - - Show Bio

i like him

#5 Posted by MrUnknown (1700 posts) - - Show Bio
@CrimsonAvenger: He's a good writer.
But he will get most of the credit for the reboot and right now that is most of the blame. This whole revamp idea is going to even more confusing because things are all over the place with characters. They should have just done a full reboot instead of a 75% one. Plus, he also gets hate for introducing Constantine to the DC Universe and ignoring Wally.
#6 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he is great.

#7 Edited by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

1) Average of three retcons per issue really gets on the nerves of older fans. 
 
2) He replaced Wally West and Kyle Raynor, interesting characters that modern comic fans know and love, with Barry Allen and Hal Jordan, two nigh personalityless cardboard cut outs that most comic fans don't care about because most of us got into comics in the last thirty years and besides, the silver age was campy as hell.
 
3) In replacing modern characters with silver age ones, Johns ends up replacing a lot of non white characters with white conservative characters from the 60s. 
 
4) Johns is very heavy handed with his stories.  He loves the Rogues for example, and wanted to tell a story with Captain Boomerang in it.  Problem?  Captain Boomerang had been crippled in a storyline about ten years earlier.  So Johns told a story where Captain Boomerang was drugged by Joker venom, which healed him.  Then, Boomerang died in Identity Crisis, so Johns took Boomerang's son and made him the new Captain Boomerang.  Then, the Outsiders writer decided that Captain Boomerang should be a hero and made it so.  So Geoff Johns wrote a big crossover event called Blackest Night where he had the younger Captain Boomerang murder women and children as a big eff you to the Outsiders writer before killing him off and resurrecting the original Captain Boomerang.  Yes, an entire crossover event so that Johns could get a guy that throws boomerangs to fight the Flash.  Subtly is not his strong suit. (See also: Hawk and Dove)
 
5) Johns thinks every character needs to have daddy issues.  The following characters have either seen their parents die or killed family members in Johns stories: Barry Allen, Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Mirror Master, Captain Boomerang, Zoom and Pied Piper.  That's just in Flash!  He killed off Green Lantern's father about thirty times in flashback in GL, Stargirl's dad in JSA and Superman's dad in Action Comics.
 
6) Johns storylines are very predictable.  You know how generally, a story starts in the middle, then things start to get bad, then the hero comes up with a plan or does something useful and then oh no the big bad guy has something up his sleeve and at the end, the hero triumphs?  For Johns, he has these moments but they always happen in the exact same order at the exact same time during the story.  For instance, near the end of Blackest Night, Johns gave a bunch of random characters GL rings so that at the end of the issue, you could be like "YEAH!" But what did that really do from an in universe perspective?  Freaking nothing.  Having six more lanterns to battle the black lanterns with maybe saved a dozen nameless bystanders.  It was pointlessly there to change the mood of the storyline.  Most Geoff Johns big event plot points are there just to change the mood of the storyline and don't serve any other purpose and often don't make any sense in context.  (None of Brightest Day's plot points make any sense.)  
 
7) Johns' Teen Titans followed Peter David's awesome Young Justice run, which used the same characters.  Johns wrote Robin as emo, Superboy as a moron, Wonder Girl as incompetent and Impulse as dead serious, which totally undermined years of great characterization in favor of mediocre stories. 
 
8) Johns did not do the research on the characters during his Avengers run, which lead to similar bad characterization, though people mostly don't care because it was just Jack of Hearts and Ant Man, who weren't nearly as fun or iconic as Superboy, Robin, Wonder Girl and Impulse in the first place. 
 
9) Superboy Prime

#8 Edited by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

However, people do like Geoff Johns because 
 
1) Green Lantern has lots of villains that are actually in the same weight class as the character, now, and several of them (Rage Kitty and Sinestro in particular) are a lot of fun. 
 
2) He brought the Rogues back to the Flash.
 
3) His JSA run was generally enjoyable with memorable characters all around. 
 
4) Much as his Teen Titans book doesn't live up to Young Justice, the book's only gotten worse since he left, leaving some people longing for Johns stories just because everything else is so terrible.

#9 Posted by Hoboseid (1022 posts) - - Show Bio
@MrUnknown said:
@CrimsonAvenger: He's a good writer. But he will get most of the credit for the reboot and right now that is most of the blame. This whole revamp idea is going to even more confusing because things are all over the place with characters. They should have just done a full reboot instead of a 75% one. Plus, he also gets hate for introducing Constantine to the DC Universe and ignoring Wally.
I think this whole reboot/revamp thing is gonna flop
#10 Posted by fenixREVOLUTION (884 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't dislike him, he does retcon a lot though.

I also like Superboy Prime, haters be damned!

#11 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hoboseid said:
@MrUnknown said:
@CrimsonAvenger: He's a good writer. But he will get most of the credit for the reboot and right now that is most of the blame. This whole revamp idea is going to even more confusing because things are all over the place with characters. They should have just done a full reboot instead of a 75% one. Plus, he also gets hate for introducing Constantine to the DC Universe and ignoring Wally.
I think this whole reboot/revamp thing is gonna flop
Really, I think the Revamp idea is the best thing DC has ever done. I for one am very excited for it because there a lot of good ideas in the revamp.
#12 Posted by MrUnknown (1700 posts) - - Show Bio
@CrimsonAvenger said:
@Hoboseid said:
@MrUnknown said:
@CrimsonAvenger: He's a good writer. But he will get most of the credit for the reboot and right now that is most of the blame. This whole revamp idea is going to even more confusing because things are all over the place with characters. They should have just done a full reboot instead of a 75% one. Plus, he also gets hate for introducing Constantine to the DC Universe and ignoring Wally.
I think this whole reboot/revamp thing is gonna flop
Really, I think the Revamp idea is the best thing DC has ever done. I for one am very excited for it because there a lot of good ideas in the revamp.
It has some good ideas but I think it would have worked better as an "Ultimate" universe. Otherwise it just feels more confusing than ever about why Babs is Batgirl and Damian is Robin. It feels very out of place. For Starfire it seems like its her first adventures, whereas as Cyborg is in the Justice League. Sure there are good things too; I'm excited about Justice League and a lot of the Dark books but the more you think about continuity the more everything seems fuzzled and disorganized.
#13 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@CrimsonAvenger said:
Really, I think the Revamp idea is the best thing DC has ever done. I for one am very excited for it because there a lot of good ideas in the revamp.
Name one.
#14 Posted by _jackbauer (157 posts) - - Show Bio

In many circles, loyal veterans of a particular slice of fandom have issue with creative decisions designed to attract new blood.

#15 Posted by batman_is_god (1185 posts) - - Show Bio

@CrimsonAvenger: I hate him because he obviously hates Batman. Its apparent in everything he writes.

#16 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

I only dislike him when he's writing Batman.

#17 Posted by The_Tree (7234 posts) - - Show Bio

@Caligula said:

I think he is great.

As do I.

#18 Posted by Misterwizz (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zoom:

Well Excluding the second of those (which is highly debatable, and not fact), I agree with mostly with that list.

#19 Posted by Billy Batson (57777 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't hate him.
BB

#20 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

He's the most passive aggressive writer to ever work in the medium. He puts his own wishes above what is best for the characters and story. In short, he's a child.  
 
He's a talented writer, but he needs to grow up some. 

#21 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

Geoff is great he wrote the first modern comic I read and is one of the main reasons I currently read comics. He's one of the best 2 writers of the reboot IMO.

#22 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
I don't hate him.
#23 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32819 posts) - - Show Bio
@Caligula said:

I think he is great.

#24 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm bumping this, because there needs to be more Geoff-hate.  
 
Threeboot Legion: Retconned into being an Earth Prime substitute, effectively removing the characters and story from any real importance in the DCU (not to mention this makes no sense as the Threeboot Legion modeled themselves on the heroes of old. In Earth Prime there was only Superboy).  
Superman Birthright: Completely retconned out of existence for the vastly inferior Secret Origins 
Speed Force: Rather than being the source of all Speedsters' powers and an extradimensional force that has existed for all time, it was created by Barry Allen (worst idea ever).  
Wally West's Character Growth: Every ability Wally learned during Waid's tenure on Flash, Barry knows and can do as well; because, well, just because.   
 
 
Worst. Writer. Working. Today. 

#25 Posted by danhimself (22292 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

I'm bumping this, because there needs to be more Geoff-hate. Threeboot Legion: Retconned into being an Earth Prime substitute, effectively removing the characters and story from any real importance in the DCU (not to mention this makes no sense as the Threeboot Legion modeled themselves on the heroes of old. In Earth Prime there was only Superboy). Superman Birthright: Completely retconned out of existence for the vastly inferior Secret Origins Speed Force: Rather than being the source of all Speedsters' powers and an extradimensional force that has existed for all time, it was created by Barry Allen (worst idea ever). Wally West's Character Growth: Every ability Wally learned during Waid's tenure on Flash, Barry knows and can do as well; because, well, just because. Worst. Writer. Working. Today.

just to clear up the first point....the Earth Prime Legion modeled themselves after what they thought were historical records but turned out to be comic books

#26 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

I'm bumping this, because there needs to be more Geoff-hate. Threeboot Legion: Retconned into being an Earth Prime substitute, effectively removing the characters and story from any real importance in the DCU (not to mention this makes no sense as the Threeboot Legion modeled themselves on the heroes of old. In Earth Prime there was only Superboy). Superman Birthright: Completely retconned out of existence for the vastly inferior Secret Origins Speed Force: Rather than being the source of all Speedsters' powers and an extradimensional force that has existed for all time, it was created by Barry Allen (worst idea ever). Wally West's Character Growth: Every ability Wally learned during Waid's tenure on Flash, Barry knows and can do as well; because, well, just because. Worst. Writer. Working. Today.

just to clear up the first point....the Earth Prime Legion modeled themselves after what they thought were historical records but turned out to be comic books

So he used a joke from Galaxy Quest as a legitimate plot point. That sounds like Johns.  
 
What a f*cking idiot.
#27 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

are they ever going to bring wally back ? i don't care for barry allen  

#28 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

Barry Allen rules. >.>

#29 Posted by DANCECATEXE (14 posts) - - Show Bio

He's famous. Name a person working in comics, scratch that, anyone in the entertainment industry, big business, politics, religion and life in general that after having notoriety placed on them doesn't have a large number of people complaining about what they do or hating them? Name a religious or historical figure that doesn't for that matter? Go through this site and find one writer or artist that isn't. In fact I guarantee you can even find people hating on Stan Lee, and even Ditko online. Why? People need someone to focus there negativity on. Why do they need this? That answer is privy to those that learn it, as it's too much to handle for haters, sorry. Confucius, Yoda or the Wise Owl may know the answer, but they'll probably give it you in a riddle too. ;) Universal reason? There can be no love without hate and vice versa, as there can be no peace without war, ect. The city likes it's sunshine, but it loves it's dirt even more. It's a societal standard, easier to not enjoy life as doing otherwise actually takes some work. Happy Holidays, peace on Earth! ^_~

#30 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@DANCECATEXE said:

He's famous. Name a person working in comics, scratch that, anyone in the entertainment industry, big business, politics, religion and life in general that after having notoriety placed on them doesn't have a large number of people complaining about what they do or hating them? Name a religious or historical figure that doesn't for that matter? Go through this site and find one writer or artist that isn't. In fact I guarantee you can even find people hating on Stan Lee, and even Ditko online. Why? People need someone to focus there negativity on. Why do they need this? That answer is privy to those that learn it, as it's too much to handle for haters, sorry. Confucius, Yoda or the Wise Owl may know the answer, but they'll probably give it you in a riddle too. ;) Universal reason? There can be no love without hate and vice versa, as there can be no peace without war, ect. The city likes it's sunshine, but it loves it's dirt even more. It's a societal standard, easier to not enjoy life as doing otherwise actually takes some work. Happy Holidays, peace on Earth! ^_~

This sort of response annoys me. I don't hate Johns because I'm bored and need something to rant at, that's what Twilight is for. I hate Johns because he is a selfish, immature and careless writer, and I've said why.  
 
I hate when people handwave criticism as just being human nature or tall-poppy syndrome. Some people are just bad at what they do. 
#31 Posted by RScottH08 (249 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

He's the most passive aggressive writer to ever work in the medium. He puts his own wishes above what is best for the characters and story. In short, he's a child. He's a talented writer, but he needs to grow up some.

@FadeToBlackBolt: My sentiments exactly, granted there are a few writers like this, but none as much as him. It really does seem like he puts what he wants into writing and not what the fans want. I understand he wanted to boost the sales of GL at the time, and I'll give him credit cause he did, but he didn't have to completely make everything Kyle had done as a character seem like nothing as time went on. Same goes for Wally and other characters this happened to. I know he loves the silver age and all, but there is a reason it ended, and eventually i believe that people will once again want a change and move forward, not back.

#32 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt:

I didn't say you were bored. Nor did I say you. I didn't even give the reason so I'm not sure how you were able to assume what I meant.

Why do they need this? That answer is privy to those that learn it, as it's too much to handle for haters, sorry.

One day I believe you will, until then, I'm not stopping you from hating any comic writers, artists, their fans nor me. That's your choice.

#33 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

His condescending attitude towards Batman and his h*rd-on for Sinestro really irritates me.

#34 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

Because he hates Batman, is always horny for Hal Jordan, took part in making that gawd-awful Green Lantern movie, replaced Wally with Barry as The Flash, constantly makes Kyle seem inferior compared to the other GL's, and wrote the extremely predictable Blackest Night, Brightest Day, and Flashpoint storylines.

But other than that, he's a pretty good writer. ;)

#35 Posted by Dracade102 (8167 posts) - - Show Bio

I remain neutral on my opinion of him. I'd say my respect for him outweighs my disappointment, but then the Green Lantern movie happened.

#36 Edited by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dracade102 said:

I remain neutral on my opinion of him. I'd say my respect for him outweighs my disappointment, but then the Green Lantern movie happened.

Please, don't even mention that abomination. To me, that terrible movie never even existed, along with X-Men Origins: Wolverine. =/

#37 Posted by Dracade102 (8167 posts) - - Show Bio
@mr.obvious: It's a shame you can't reboot an entire continuity IRL. ={
#38 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dracade102: Yeah, I know. It really sucks for all the longtime GL fans such as myself to hear that DC is FINALLY going to make a movie on another one of their heroes other that Batman or Superman, and look what they gave us: that giant turd of a movie called GREEN LANTERN. Such a shame really, I was also looking forward to a Flash movie, but because the GL movie underperformed as much as it did, then I doubt that we'll ever get to see that... =/

#39 Posted by redhood21 (774 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont really care about the replacing wally thing I think he had a great run with the flash (no pun intended) and the new 52 flash is some gewd reeds. On the other hand Kyle was/is my favorite GL. As for superboy prime I dont know much seems interesting and annoying at the same time.

#40 Posted by redhood21 (774 posts) - - Show Bio

The GL movie to me wasn't bad it just wasn't good either. Especially following Thor and Captain America. Also outside of us comic reading folk nobody knows jack $h!t about green lantern. My black friends said it was racist and I had to explain that John Stuart wasn't the first GL and my other friends were like a power ring? WTF is a power ring? There is a lot of hero ignorance out there. My gf's little sisters didn't know green lantern or any x-men....not even wolverine :'(

#41 Posted by batmanary (798 posts) - - Show Bio

For the people thinking Geoff Johns wrote Green Lantern: He didn't. It was Marc Guggenheim. If Geoff Johns had written it, then it would have been good. Geoff might be a little unwieldy with some characters, but on the whole, he's an amazing writer. The reason Hal Jordan was brought back as Green Lantern, in a particularly interesting way? Because GL wasn't selling. Johns was the man who made it sell. Not to mention the Flash. Was it really that interesting? Flash stories were subpar, and, again, weren't selling. Johns got on, and brought it back up to speed. To those who are mad that Kyle was sidelined....he wasn't GL Corps was easily one of the best books in DC, and that really led to the whole booming of the entire GL universe. Batman is humanised when Johns writes him. As everyone always remembers him as this infallible man who can not fail, Johns brings that back into the equation, and portrays him as a man, not an icon, and that's something you have to respect once in a while. Would you call Lee Bermejo a Batman hater for making Noel, where Batman is a dick? Not really, because it shows that, sometimes Batman can be wrong, too. And with Flash, it's quite annoying people complained about Wally being sidelined, but the fact is, no one wanted to write a book with Wally. If they did, then some other title would have popped up at least. For instance, a Flash: Fastest Man Alive, or something.

#42 Posted by mbembet (219 posts) - - Show Bio

geoff johns is an asshole nuff said lol

#43 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

The man believes Hal Jordan is better and has more willpower then Bruce Wayne. Then he destroyed years of Batman storytelling to make his masturbatory fantasies real. Screw him, seriously

#44 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

The man believes Hal Jordan is better and has more willpower then Bruce Wayne.

LMFAO.

#45 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair, I don't have a problem with Hal having greater willpower. That's sort of the point of Hal. Without it he has absolutely nothing to him (And lets face it, he's not that much with it either). Batman can survive not having the greatest willpower in the world. But if Hal has less willpower than Bruce, then why haven't you dropped him down a mine shaft and given the ring to Bruce already? If you're gonna have Batman and GL in the same universe and not have a Batlantern, such an arrangement is needed.

As for Johns himself, Zoom covered his problems on the first page. I'd add just one thing, that he seems to think more and more like an editor instead of a writer. Because much of his latest work makes very little sense from a writer's point of view, but works well just for promoting sales.

Also, he acts like he freaking owns DC. When was the last time we had an event not written by him? Let the other writers play sometimes, thank you.

#46 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

To be fair, I don't have a problem with Hal having greater willpower. That's sort of the point of Hal. Without it he has absolutely nothing to him (And lets face it, he's not that much with it either). Batman can survive not having the greatest willpower in the world. But if Hal has less willpower than Bruce, then why haven't you dropped him down a mine shaft and given the ring to Bruce already? If you're gonna have Batman and GL in the same universe and not have a Batlantern, such an arrangement is needed.

That whole thing about the willpower was a retcon in the first place if you look at GL comic history/continuity. The fact that Hal has constantly given up/failed/been corrupted when Bruce Wayne has shown time and again to be incorruptible, having endless willpower and never ever giving into evil and corruption makes the assertion that Hal has more willpower offensive to me.

If Hal has nothing to offer as a character, drop him. Move on to something else, there are already a lot more interesting lanterns (that is all of them). If you have to use the heavy handed retcon to fix that. Do it, make the criteria for choosing a lantern not based on willpower or human traits that Bruce Wayne on screen has demonstrated to trounce Hal.

This was one of the reasons why I love the episode where Kyle Rayner was selected as the Green Lantern in the dini Superman Series. He wasn't the best or the strongest or more heroic. But he clearly had all was needed to honor the ring.

#47 Posted by Remi (613 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

Also, he acts like he freaking owns DC. When was the last time we had an event not written by him? Let the other writers play sometimes, thank you.

Final Crisis four years back? If you don't count the tie-ins that is.

#48 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

That whole thing about the willpower was a retcon in the first place if you look at GL comic history/continuity. The fact that Hal has constantly given up/failed/been corrupted when Bruce Wayne has shown time and again to be incorruptible, having endless willpower and never ever giving into evil and corruption makes the assertion that Hal has more willpower offensive to me.

If Hal has nothing to offer as a character, drop him. Move on to something else, there are already a lot more interesting lanterns (that is all of them). If you have to use the heavy handed retcon to fix that. Do it, make the criteria for choosing a lantern not based on willpower or human traits that Bruce Wayne on screen has demonstrated to trounce Hal.

This was one of the reasons why I love the episode where Kyle Rayner was selected as the Green Lantern in the dini Superman Series. He wasn't the best or the strongest or more heroic. But he clearly had all was needed to honor the ring.

I suppose, I haven't read much of Lantern before so I'll defer to you. But still though, aren't you retconning something either way? Either Hal's willpower or the ring's selection criteria. Something's got to give because both can't work. Though I suppose the criteria would work better given how many lanterns have turned out to be utter chumps lately.

Kyle's selection was pretty cool though.

@Remi said:

Final Crisis four years back? If you don't count the tie-ins that is.

Yeah. And then we had the two events before that also written by him.

#49 Posted by Remi (613 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom: And three after that.

#50 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Remi: And he's writing the next one as well.

And the sad part is none of them are very good.

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