#1 Posted by time (5106 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by UltimateJonathan (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh

#3 Edited by HumanRocket (8922 posts) - - Show Bio

I can understand numbers 1 and 2 the others can't agree/disagree on those ones but good points.

#4 Posted by time (5106 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by time (5106 posts) - - Show Bio

@humanrocket: You don't agree with Bishop, Storm and Magneto. How comes?

#6 Edited by HumanRocket (8922 posts) - - Show Bio

@time: I really don't know much or have read much about those characters to comment on them. I should really put can't agree to disagree on my other post.

#7 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (12233 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, completely agree. All of these.

#8 Edited by time (5106 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (12233 posts) - - Show Bio

@time: I definitely feel like there are more mutants are being mistreated now more than ever because of this schism gimmick. It's the same characters in every book.

#10 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3872 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel bad for storm, she should be doing better. I mean does anyone like her in the relationship with wolverine? Its not like there going to get married. lol

#11 Posted by numi (276 posts) - - Show Bio

Others would argue that they haven't changed enough. Characters should evolve over time and being human, sometimes there is no good reason for why they do some things.

Magneto has his own agenda and has started doing his own thing behind Scott's back so there are glimpses of his ego coming back

Bishop is going to be in the new X-Force book (I think) so he's continuing on with Cable.

Emma hasn't been with Scott really in quite some time and her character is asserting herself in teaching and training, like in today's Uncanny issue.

I don't really care about Iceman and Prof X. Bobby is picking the wrong girls? Actually, from Astonishing, it's not the girls, it's Bobby

As for Jean, it looks like they're trying to tell different stories about her now and not the same old song over and over again, which I'm fine with.

Storm? As far as no one listening to her, seems only fair since she doesn't really listen when she's in charge either. (Remembering the showdown between her and Colossus recently).

#12 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4874 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel bad for storm, she should be doing better. I mean does anyone like her in the relationship with wolverine?

I do. I actually like it a bunch, it makes perfect sense to me.

Its not like there going to get married. lol

So? that's one of the things I like most about them being together, that they aren't just going to settle down.

there are many great relationships that don't end in marriage.

#13 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6020 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

I feel bad for storm, she should be doing better. I mean does anyone like her in the relationship with wolverine?

I do. I actually like it a bunch, it makes perfect sense to me.

Its not like there going to get married. lol

So? that's one of the things I like most about them being together, that they aren't just going to settle down.

there are many great relationships that don't end in marriage.

I agree with many great relationships not having to end in marriage. As long as the relationship is long and happy, I could care less if the couple gets married or not.

#14 Posted by HAWK2916 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

I pretty much agree with the list and actually would add to it. I think Moonstar has been done wrong along with Cable. I wonder does he still have any power besides totin guns.

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#15 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3872 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

I pretty much agree with the list and actually would add to it. I think Moonstar has been done wrong along with Cable. I wonder does he still have any power besides totin guns.

I think cable has some tp and im pretty sure he has tk but he does not use it.

#16 Posted by HAWK2916 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@numi:

Have you really seen a solicitation or something about Bishop being with cable in a new Xforce book? Just curious

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#17 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

1 and 2 I completely agree with. Jean...I don't even know what the heck happened to her. Just went off the rails. Charles, it seems there must've been an editorial mandate to just bastardize the character and have everyone hate him, and have something bad to say whenever they met him. Honestly it got so bad that I was kind of relieved when he was killed off, just so it could finally end.

Bishop I actually don't agree with. I, and I may be in the minority here, liked the route his character went down, and the reveal that Hope was apparently part of what caused his horrible future. Thought that was a nice touch, and a good way to tie in old storylines to a brand new one. In general an interesting reveal.

Storm I agree with. The marriage to Panther was a bad idea and doomed to fail from the start. What's more, Marvel put absolutely no effort into making it work.

Magneto....I don't agree. He's changed over the years and grown into a new person, just like Scott has.

Don't even remember the last time I saw Gambit with a major role....

Same with Jubilee, same with Bobby, though he's at least been making appearances.

I don't care about Emma in the slightest. *shrug* Never have since the 90s X-Men show. Old habits and all.

#18 Posted by danhimself (22683 posts) - - Show Bio

Highly disagree with Gambit....his solo series was one of my favorite Marvel titles while it was being published...I was really disappointed when I heard that it was getting cancelled

#19 Posted by MaccyD (4905 posts) - - Show Bio

Angel should be on that list, for one of the original 5 X-men, he often gets the short end of the stick.

#20 Posted by JohnnyGat (1576 posts) - - Show Bio

Every new mutant with specific notable exceptions which in of itself becomes rare occurrences. I mean looking at the Uncanny kids line-up, WatX kids line-up, and X-kids of X Past like the Academy X kids and the 5 lights there just is a trend of creating a new group of kids that will just eventually fall into obscurity.

I mean yeah you get standouts like Quentin Quire who has been developed enough that you can at least acknowledge he has staying power and some guys that manage to get into books like Prodigy in Young Avengers but the rest are basically nothing more than background mutants who will be forgotten.

I mean I understand that like those among the list that these X-kids aren't "destroyed" in the same sense that certain characters who've already have a developed feel to them, but with every generation of X-kids no matter how much potential they seem to have in my opinion the enthusiasm of new students and mutants just isn't there anymore.

#21 Edited by danhimself (22683 posts) - - Show Bio

Every new mutant with specific notable exceptions which in of itself becomes rare occurrences. I mean looking at the Uncanny kids line-up, WatX kids line-up, and X-kids of X Past like the Academy X kids and the 5 lights there just is a trend of creating a new group of kids that will just eventually fall into obscurity.

I mean yeah you get standouts like Quentin Quire who has been developed enough that you can at least acknowledge he has staying power and some guys that manage to get into books like Prodigy in Young Avengers but the rest are basically nothing more than background mutants who will be forgotten.

I mean I understand that like those among the list that these X-kids aren't "destroyed" in the same sense that certain characters who've already have a developed feel to them, but with every generation of X-kids no matter how much potential they seem to have in my opinion the enthusiasm of new students and mutants just isn't there anymore.

agreed....that's why I found it so hard to care about anyone dying in Avengers Arena...all of those kids except for X-23 were destined for limbo anyway

#22 Edited by HAWK2916 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

I forgot about Angel too. With Xavier, they made him irrelevant and nearly made Magneto a more sympathetic character. In fact imo Xavier's death was far less profound because he was pretty much out of it anyway.

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#23 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (10770 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with all except for Iceman. I think over the past few years he has had some really interesting development, especially under Liu.

#24 Posted by numi (276 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

@numi:

Have you really seen a solicitation or something about Bishop being with cable in a new Xforce book? Just curious

I thought I did but it wasn't a solicitation... trying to remember where but then I may have been mistaken as well which is why I wrote it the way I did.

#25 Posted by fodigg (6148 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I created a list that, list X-Men characters that Marvel destroy.

X-Men characters that Marvel destroy.

Let me know what you guys think

Even taking your complaints at face value, most seem "neglected" and not "destroyed". Some of your complaints are about plot points I think made the X-Men dramatically better (e.g., Frost-Summers affair). Others I agree with but not that they "destroyed" the character (e.g., Vulcan's team of X-Men). Others I'm ambiguous about because they were a good story overall and the character came out okay in the end (e.g., Bishop the baby killer).

#26 Posted by comicbookfan93 (422 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel have ruined the whole of the x-men

#27 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4874 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@time said:

I created a list that, list X-Men characters that Marvel destroy.

X-Men characters that Marvel destroy.

Let me know what you guys think

Even taking your complaints at face value, most seem "neglected" and not "destroyed". Some of your complaints are about plot points I think made the X-Men dramatically better (e.g., Frost-Summers affair). Others I agree with but not that they "destroyed" the character (e.g., Vulcan's team of X-Men). Others I'm ambiguous about because they were a good story overall and the character came out okay in the end (e.g., Bishop the baby killer).

I'm never sure how to respond to these types of complaints, but this sounds like what I was feeling about it too.

#28 Posted by adamTRMM (1904 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, Morrison gave JG her credit, and he showed her so much respect she overshadowed and overgrown Cyclops, who has become a whinny, broken.... couldn't even call him "man". But her outfit in his run was so awful, it's like he written a JG to please some feminists =\

Bishop... I really don't know what all this was for, I mean now, after all the Hope story ended, they're trying to make him redeemed, how "unexcpectable"...

Emma, I don't know, people say she was completely overshadowed by Cyclops this years, I think they should read "Dark Confesions", after this issue it really makes it clear how she played her own games, and wasn't a minor role.

But, the one who was really treated poorly this years is Magneto.. Everytime he used his powers on a high degree he almost blacked out, didn't really play a role in any disicion, but before all this he knelt... why would a man with ego even kneel? Also Craption stated "he is an old man and he will feel this now". Try and learn a damn continiuty, before you write anything!

#29 Edited by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3872 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

Actually, Morrison gave JG her credit, and he showed her so much respect she overshadowed and overgrown Cyclops, who has become a whinny, broken.... couldn't even call him "man". But her outfit in his run was so awful, it's like he written a JG to please some feminists =\

Bishop... I really don't know what all this was for, I mean now, after all the Hope story ended, they're trying to make him redeemed, how "unexcpectable"...

Emma, I don't know, people say she was completely overshadowed by Cyclops this years, I think they should read "Dark Confesions", after this issue it really makes it clear how she played her own games, and wasn't a minor role.

But, the one who was really treated poorly this years is Magneto.. Everytime he used his powers on a high degree he almost blacked out, didn't really play a role in any disicion, but before all this he knelt... why would a man with ego even kneel? Also Craption stated "he is an old man and he will feel this now". Try and learn a damn continiuty, before you write anything!

Yup so true but look at sue storm she had the same boring f4 outfit for years.....i really dont know

#30 Posted by PietroMaximoffIsTheMan (56 posts) - - Show Bio

As for Gambit, if there's one man who can fix a shit on character, it's Peter David. Can't wait for his new book.

#31 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4874 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

Actually, Morrison gave JG her credit, and he showed her so much respect she overshadowed and overgrown Cyclops, who has become a whinny, broken.... couldn't even call him "man". But her outfit in his run was so awful, it's like he written a JG to please some feminists =\

And it worked too. Morrison's version was the only noteworthy, decently written interpretation of the character since the 70's.

But then, I honestly never understood why she was so popular to begin with. She was generally dull as dishwater through the 80's and 90's.

#32 Edited by mechem_93 (122 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think this characters were destroyed (maybe Xavier a little), but mistreated. When I think of a character being destroyed I remember Cyclops leaving his wife and kid for his old girlfriend but even him recovered from that so there's still hope for this characters.

#33 Posted by lorex (958 posts) - - Show Bio

1. I don't think Jean has been destroyed but I do think the constant clips, specials and flash backs have been more to serve fan demand for Jean Grey rather than be necessary to a story. I actually like idea that she is off in the white room with the phoenix hosts from other dimensions dealing with things on a cosmic or above level. Also while I do not hate the teen Jean we have now, she is not the real Jean Grey.

2. Again I do not think the Character of Professor X has been destroyed. The story where the X-Men kicked him out was a logical consequence of his actions. Professor X always preached about using his powerds responsibly but many times he would erase the memories of friend and foe alike. When people found out about that its only natural that they would distruse them. Also when Xavier got the boot it was so the people he trained could take over, so really he got what he wanted, just not in the way he wanted. In AvX the story was set up so the Avengers would be seen as the heroes and Xavier joined them, when the Phoenix 5 emerged as a force trying to rule the world and he was killed.

3. Bishop. Well I have to agree that this character has been thrown under the bus by Marvel. Yes in the past when the whole 'I'm a cop' was played upon far too often it became annoying but the character went completely off the rails trying to kill Hope. First he shot Xavier in the head and then chased Cable into the future and destroyed the world trying to get at Hope. He was lost in a far future Earth but has now returned part of some new group. This character is completely messed up.

4.Storm has been grossly underutilized and the marriage to Black Panther was a dead end. Marvel did not support that at all and gave up on it quickly and since until reciently Storm has had a small presence in the X-Men. Reciently she has returned to the fold but is not the leader she once was but is more of a voice in the group. This is partly because Marvel has risen Wolverine to a leadership position that Storm would have filled in the past, partly to ride the Wolverine gravy train more.

5. Magneto has changed alot over he years. I liked how he joined Cyclops when most of the mutants were on Utopia as Cyclops achieved something he never could. Uniting most mutants under one leader. Before that he was more like the traditional Magneto we have known for years. Since then he has languished in Cyclops shadow as the loyal soldier. It remains to be scens if this will last but for now it seems that he and Scott have similar goals and fighting him or breaking away wouldbe counterproductive.

6. Gambit is one of my favorite characters and it pains me to see how whipped he has become. Gambit use to be the charming rogue that women wanted to be with and men wanted to be. When he and Rogue became a couple they were good together for a while but as writers change the voice of the characters change and after a while the couple stopped to work. Its clear that Gambit has not been able to move on and the character ha not been as good since. I thoought with a solo series that the character would finally bounce back but it never really happened.

7. Jubilee was many fans introduction to the X-Men going back to the animated series, but she left X-Men for Generation X she has not been the same since. Now when M-Day happened she was stripped of her powers and the character was moved into the background and forgotten for years. Reciently she was brought back into the fold and because vamipres were hot at the time she was turned into one. This has not really worked out and I think they should have tried to come up with a way to get her powers back if they really wanted her on the team.

8. Emma Frost has been poorly written for years. When she first joined the main X-Men in Astonishing she was full of attitude and had good dialogue. initially in her relationship with Cyclops things were good and they worked together to run the school and build a future for mutants. Over time Cyclops got more and more time in the spotlight and Emma was pushed more and more into the background to where she was essentially eye candy for Cyclops. Emma is a character that needs a writer to champion her and reestablish a voice for the character.

9. Iceman is an often neglected character that has not changed much over the years while Scott, Jean, Hank and Warren have changed considerably. This past year he finally recieved some much needed attention from writers, showing just how powerful he is but it remains to be sceen how long that will last.

#34 Edited by adamTRMM (1904 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

Yup so true but look at sue storm she had the same boring f4 outfit for years.....i really dont know

Fantastic 4 is the most stagnant franchise in comics, a death of one of them didn't last more than a year or something, every second scientist now knows how to clone a mutant, but the smartest man alive cannot cure The Thing, yeah right.. Ultimate universe solution was cool, but in 616? Everything has to be an event, or is an untouchable trademark. Dam, even Franklin is still a kid. Poor fans.

And it worked too. Morrison's version was the only noteworthy, decently written interpretation of the character since the 70's.

But then, I honestly never understood why she was so popular to begin with. She was generally dull as dishwater through the 80's and 90's.

I wasn't bothered by her growing as a person, it was handled very accurately. As I said, that was that black\gray outfit she was wearing I really hated, and this mackintosh.... 0_o What, why?

Yeah, I don't understand this as well, especially the way she was brought back. My favorite JG is 90s animated version of the Phoenix, that moment when she took M'kraan Cystal to the sun after the final farewells, and pretty much sacrificed herself, the love she recalled and the loneliness she was about to face in that moment, dam that was a really intense moment.

#35 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3872 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

Actually, Morrison gave JG her credit, and he showed her so much respect she overshadowed and overgrown Cyclops, who has become a whinny, broken.... couldn't even call him "man". But her outfit in his run was so awful, it's like he written a JG to please some feminists =\

Bishop... I really don't know what all this was for, I mean now, after all the Hope story ended, they're trying to make him redeemed, how "unexcpectable"...

Emma, I don't know, people say she was completely overshadowed by Cyclops this years, I think they should read "Dark Confesions", after this issue it really makes it clear how she played her own games, and wasn't a minor role.

But, the one who was really treated poorly this years is Magneto.. Everytime he used his powers on a high degree he almost blacked out, didn't really play a role in any disicion, but before all this he knelt... why would a man with ego even kneel? Also Craption stated "he is an old man and he will feel this now". Try and learn a damn continiuty, before you write anything!

Yup so true but look at sue storm she had the same boring f4 outfit for years.....i really dont know

Well at that time emma frost look was anti-feminist(showing way to much skin), so they had to contradict that by making jean have the more feminist/conservative look.

Athough in here comes tomorrow Jeans new dark phoenix look was anti-feminist then when she went in the white hot room it was back to feminism lol

#36 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture: @adamtrmm:

I don't get all this talk about feminism as it relates to what these particular characters wore. Lack of clothing or overabundance of clothing has nothing to do with feminism outside of what is ridiculous and practical as opposed to artistically and aesthetically pleasing. It's presentation rather than wardrobe is the issue and if it matches the characters' personalities and tastes.

Just wanted to throw a couple of pence in your direction. Both Emma and Jean are incredibly strong female characters regardless of their garb and as a feminist, I consider their sexual confidence part and parcel of who they are, regardless of how they choose to express it, clothing-wise. Taking ownership of their femininity and sexuality is a big reason why I enjoy them as characters.

#37 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4874 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@hopesummersforthefuture: @adamtrmm:

I don't get all this talk about feminism as it relates to what these particular characters wore. Lack of clothing or overabundance of clothing has nothing to do with feminism outside of what is ridiculous and practical as opposed to artistically and aesthetically pleasing. It's presentation rather than wardrobe is the issue and if it matches the characters' personalities and tastes.

Just wanted to throw a couple of pence in your direction. Both Emma and Jean are incredibly strong female characters regardless of their garb and as a feminist, I consider their sexual confidence part and parcel of who they are, regardless of how they choose to express it, clothing-wise. Taking ownership of their femininity and sexuality is a big reason why I enjoy them as characters.

a lot of people use the terms feminism and feminist without actually knowing what they mean.

#38 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler:

Especially on this site. At least it seems that way at times. ;)

#39 Edited by adamTRMM (1904 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@hopesummersforthefuture: @adamtrmm:

I don't get all this talk about feminism as it relates to what these particular characters wore. Lack of clothing or overabundance of clothing has nothing to do with feminism outside of what is ridiculous and practical as opposed to artistically and aesthetically pleasing. It's presentation rather than wardrobe is the issue and if it matches the characters' personalities and tastes.

Just wanted to throw a couple of pence in your direction. Both Emma and Jean are incredibly strong female characters regardless of their garb and as a feminist, I consider their sexual confidence part and parcel of who they are, regardless of how they choose to express it, clothing-wise. Taking ownership of their femininity and sexuality is a big reason why I enjoy them as characters.

Oh really? The funniest thing I actually addressed to her overall personal growth to outshining Cyclops, an Alpha-male and a leader, making him look like a whinny little b*tch, but you skipped this for a part with which I just concluded my point of view of what and how Morrison tried to make her look in overall. I'm so not interested to prove you what I know and what I don't about feminism, because the subject itself doesn't interest me this much, but one thing I'll have to appoint - when I say "lefty (a political left-wing supporter)", what exactly do I mean? An anarchist? Socialist? Communist? Or just a man of moderate views? What do you think, acknowledging that the context makes it pretty obvious? Same with feminism, base of which is "total equality of women's rights", especially when movements (in comics, movement=statement) like this (of equality) supposedly\heavily supported by comic-book creators and community at all. The main complaint, was always about their, what you called "lack of clothing" (maybe not by you, but you can't deny it was never mentioned) to make sure a confident female doesn't have to show off her body to be attractive (just look at 2013 Marvel ladies, coincidence?), or to make them perfectly "curvy" and "glamour" before (and pretty much now as well), and as you claimed has nothing to do with feminism.

Actually, thank you very much for enlisting Emma Frost, it will make my point telling so much easier.

Who's Jean Grey? A perfect human being, of vast, omega-level psionic abilities with an infinite potential, so perfect a cosmic force of life and rebirth itself is attracted to her. Her personality is being, again, a perfect Mary Sue. Now, what Morrison did is just increased it to another level, with her now being so perfect and grown as a person, that she is becoming alienated from regular folks, Cyclops among them. She actually (I'm saying this again, now in a context) outshines her Alpha-male, perfect and fearless leader husband, making him look really really poor. That's just her personality of a perfect Ultra-Mega-Alpha-female, every feminist... dream of a character. Now to increase this feeling, Morrison dressed her in this boring, ugly outfit, to make his statement clear (I actually think very big part of Morrsion's X-men run was a big challenge to many comic book standards) - she doesn't need it, no matter what people will love her and she actually has no need in this pathetic attempts to attract anyone to her. Showing of feminism as a statement with the girl without showing off her body? Check.

Now for the best part, who's Emma Frost (by Morrsion)? A below average girl, from a f*cked up family, who has to rely on her telepathy, plastic surgery enchantments\improvements and exposed body, to make people attracted to her. She made a confused husband cheat on her wife, and was, until the real wife's involvement (Morrison's run ending), rejected by him, the same man she fell in love with. What I see here is not an attempt or a statement, but a human being, flawed and mistaken, like anyone of us can be. Oh, she's also an ex-stripper and has a porn-video of her in the Marvel-net (not Morrison, but I had to say this lol). So, showing of feminism as a statement of a girl that relies on her exposed body? Fail.

It was never JUST about the cloths, but it just increased the feeling. That was the point, as for Emma vs. Jean comparison, I made it for fun :)

#40 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm:

Actually, as clearly you know, feminism is equality between the genders and any variant which strays from that has less to do with feminism as Santa Claus. Not quite like the ambiguousness of "leftie" but I get your point.

I didn't get into specifics but when it comes to clothing, there are some characters which are flat out ridiculous in their costume design which are complained about not only by women, but by men as well. It's a multi-layered and complicated topic which has been explored on this forum quite a bit so I won't annoy with you with stuff you seem to be aware of/ are knowledgeable about already.

OOh, but it's so funny about Emma because it wasn't Morrison's run that made me like her. Not at all. I am on board with you about Emma and Scott and their affair -- and as for Jean, Mary-Sueish is true but perhaps she's more glaring than most because there are so many male characters with the same impossible perfectness (Thor, Hulk etc in regards to power at least) but then, can it be different yardsticks? Probably.

Emma's solo run I really enjoyed - it was that which made me appreciate her as a character and provided a certain perspective allowing me to view her as more than a femme fatale. Morrison certainly was on a mission to knock Jean down a few pegs and while I get he needed Jean to die to provide room for other characters to grow (as she should have back with Claremont's original Dark Phoenix), I am still not comfortable about how he went about it. The kiss on Jean's grave made me laugh - and I couldn't explain to you why except it was with derision, not irony.

Meh, I could get into pornos and stripping, etc as it relates to feminism but again, my soap box as of late has been creaking under the constant standing of me on it so I can see what you are pointing out and I understand your points. Thank you for taking the time to express them to me.

#41 Posted by adamTRMM (1904 posts) - - Show Bio
@lykopis said:

Actually, as clearly you know, feminism is equality between the genders and any variant which strays from that has less to do with feminism as Santa Claus. Not quite like the of ambiguousness "leftie" but I get your point.

Ambiguousness? In the end of the day all kinds of "lefties" want (supposedly) an equal society for each and everyone, they just choose different paths to achieve their goal or more like, to believe, how their goal can be achieved. (too bad our world mostly occupied by thinkers, not doers) And there are also many kinds of feminism, so generalizing it into "equality between genders" makes it not less ambiguous. Just saying.

I didn't get into specifics but when it comes to clothing, there are some characters which are flat out ridiculous in their costume design which are complained about not only by women, but by men as well. It's a multi-layered and complicated topic which has been explored on this forum quite a bit so I won't annoy with you with stuff you seem to be aware of/ are knowledgeable about already.

Emma Frost? :) But I get your point, I myself have kinda love/hate sentiments with these outfits.

OOh, but it's so funny about Emma because it wasn't Morrison's run that made me like her. Not at all. I am on board with you about Emma and Scott and their affair -- and as for Jean, Mary-Sueish is true but perhaps she's more glaring than most because there are so many male characters with the same impossible perfectness (Thor, Hulk etc in regards to power at least) but then, can it be different yardsticks? Probably.

Actually, I don't think there are perfect males in Marvel when you've mentioned it 0_o Neither is Thor (Hulk? Really? :)), he was banished from Asgard to learn humanity, says something about him :) But it's just me thinking out loud.. or printing my thoughts, would be more correctly. Anyways, perfect characters are meant to die (if they are not FF), so there was one thing I fully supported Morrison in, and that's Jean's death.

Emma's solo run I really enjoyed - it was that which made me appreciate her as a character and provided a certain perspective allowing me to view her as more than a femme fatale. Morrison certainly was on a mission to knock Jean down a few pegs and while I get he needed Jean to die to provide room for other characters to grow (as she should have back with Claremont's original Dark Phoenix), I am still not comfortable about how he went about it. The kiss on Jean's grave made me laugh - and I couldn't explain to you why except it was with derision, not irony.

Never read it, but I guess nothing was mentioned about plastics and striptease?

And thanks for mentioning that kiss, I am still not really sure how this idiocy was overlooked, too many are occupied in licking his shoes, to see how flawed and mockery of the whole franchise his run was.

Meh, I could get into pornos and stripping, etc as it relates to feminism but again, my soap box as of late has been creaking under the constant standing of me on it so I can see what you are pointing out and I understand your points. Thank you for taking the time to express them to me.

My pleasure, another reason why I'm here is to improve my English, and while you have an unusual way of expression, talking with you was\is informative :)

#42 Posted by XsPectre28 (736 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel Destroyed Synch, bring him back

#43 Posted by Farkam (4992 posts) - - Show Bio

Agree with Bishop and maybe Prof X, but I think you are also missing Cyclops.

#44 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3872 posts) - - Show Bio

@farkam said:

Agree with Bishop and maybe Prof X, but I think you are also missing Cyclops.

Totally agree and i feel like Cyclops is being trapped in a corner from marvel. No respect for the character at all. He was going down a slippery slope since HoM