#1 Edited by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah just wanted to know but that's all I could asked because I don't want to bring up stuff like crossovers and stuff so that's about it ?

#2 Edited by Fallschirmjager (17422 posts) - - Show Bio

because Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had all ready been successful creating Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk and the FF. They wanted to make the X-men and and Marvel wanted money and thus far their creations made money

#3 Posted by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Edited by Fallschirmjager (17422 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Edited by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Edited by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

They wanted a team that was comprised of youths, seeing as Spider-man was so successful. So they just ripped off the Doom Patrol.

#7 Posted by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve said:

They wanted a team that was comprised of youths, seeing as Spider-man was so successful. So they just ripped off the Doom Patrol.

I think you're right about the youths thing, but not so much about them ripping off Doom Patrol.

For starters, Stan Lee himself has been quoted as saying that he was asked to do anther team book because of the popularity of his Fantastic Four (Nov, 1961) comics; and though Doom Patrol (June '63) did debut a few months before the X-men (Sept. '63), it's way more likely that Doom Patrol themselves were even more so riffing on the Fantastic Four.

Consider that the FF's most popular character was the Thing, who, besides being an obvious inspiration for Robotman, basically appealed to the same sort of alienation and feeling trapped in one's own body that distinguished all of the members of the Doom Patrol (as a group). In some ways, Doom Patrol almost seems like a parody of the FF; though it is probably just a coincidence that they were named after their archenemy..

If we compare what both teams got from the FF, the only things that we could really speculate that X-men had in common with Doom Patrol is that they were both outcasts (but, again, so was the Thing, the Hulk, and Spiderman -all Stan Lee creations), and that they both had leaders in wheelchairs.

Whereas if we look solely at what the X-men themselves introduced to the popular superhero lexicon (a specific allegory of prejudice, the idea of a school for superheroes, and the sci-fi concepts of telekinesis and telepathy (which Doom Patrol would later use for the character of Mento), as well as the fact that it seems highly unlikely that Stan Lee would have even known about Doom_Patrol, I feel it's really unfair to call the X-men rip offs of them, regardless of how popular the idea seems to be.

It actually seems far more likely that the X-men were based on the combined inspiration of his own work on the Fantastic Four and the John Wyndham novel,The_Chrysalids , as Lee himself has claimed.

#9 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

because Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had all ready been successful creating Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk and the FF. They wanted to make the X-men and and Marvel wanted money and thus far their creations made money

Actually X-men was originally one of Lee and Kirby's least successful creations from that era. They were pretty much just doing reprints for the last like 5 years of the original run and didn't really become a huge success until Giant Size X-men #1 came out in 1975 when they introduced the new line up.

#10 Posted by Spideysense44 (3456 posts) - - Show Bio

Money Money Money MONEEEEEY

#11 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve said:

They wanted a team that was comprised of youths, seeing as Spider-man was so successful. So they just ripped off the Doom Patrol.

I think you're right about the youths thing, but not so much about them ripping off Doom Patrol.

For starters, Stan Lee himself has been quoted as saying that he was asked to do anther team book because of the popularity of his Fantastic Four (Nov, 1961) comics; and though Doom Patrol (June '63) did debut a few months before the X-men (Sept. '63), it's way more likely that Doom Patrol themselves were even more so riffing on the Fantastic Four.

Consider that the FF's most popular character was the Thing, who, besides being an obvious inspiration for Robotman, basically appealed to the same sort of alienation and feeling trapped in one's own body that distinguished all of the members of the Doom Patrol (as a group). In some ways, Doom Patrol almost seems like a parody of the FF; though it is probably just a coincidence that they were named after their archenemy..

If we compare what both teams got from the FF, the only things that we could really speculate that X-men had in common with Doom Patrol is that they were both outcasts (but, again, so was the Thing, the Hulk, and Spiderman -all Stan Lee creations), and that they both had leaders in wheelchairs.

Whereas if we look solely at what the X-men themselves introduced to the popular superhero lexicon (a specific allegory of prejudice, the idea of a school for superheroes, and the sci-fi concepts of telekinesis and telepathy (which Doom Patrol would later use for the character of Mento), as well as the fact that it seems highly unlikely that Stan Lee would have even known about Doom_Patrol, I feel it's really unfair to call the X-men rip offs of them, regardless of how popular the idea seems to be.

It actually seems far more likely that the X-men were based on the combined inspiration of his own work on the Fantastic Four and the John Wyndham novel,The_Chrysalids , as Lee himself has claimed.

Hey man, I am free to drink from whatever cola I want to. :)

First of all, Stan Lee is not benevolent. He is capable of lying and it stands that almost every Marvel comic character is based off something else, especially a lot of the ones he created. Ergo: none of them are that original and its completely plausible that this rumor has validity

Also, Its not unheard of that when two rival companies are bidding for the top spot (Coke and Pepsi, Warner Bros and 20th Century Fox studios) that they hire "moles" to work for the other company and take ideas so the other company can use them first. There has been interviews and documentaries that factually detail stuff like this happening, if you ever have noticed there will always be several movies with similar plots coming out at the same time, for instance this year "White House Down" and "Olympus has Fallen" were both about roughly the same thing and released by different studios. There are way too many similarities between the X-Men and the Patrol for me to personally believe that it is all just a big coincidence. From the concept of them being a younger group of misfit heroes who are not recognized by the public at large as conventional super heroes but also hated by them, to the fact that they are led by a guy in a wheelchair who is wealthy and hyper intelligent and refers to his charges powers as "gifts", also the fact that their rival faction would be known as the "Brotherhood of Evil" or "Brotherhood of Evil Mutants" in the X-Mens' case

Its worth noting that the X-Men have "rush job" written all over it, what I mean by that is it seems instead of being thought out it seems like the powers and concepts were kind of thrown together quickly. Instead of having them have origin stories, everyone is just a born a mutant, so you don't have to come up with any origin stories for the heroes or the villains. Its at the same time both the most lazy and brilliant idea anyone has ever had in comics. Also the X-Mens powers themselves just seem to be generic powers with a twist. Psychokinesis had a large attachment to the supernatural for most of its history until it is introduced into science fiction and one of the most well know users of it was Martian Manhunter, So I think Lee just split the mental power that primarily comprise Psychokinesis and gave them to Jean Grey and Professor X respectively, I also believe he took Superman eye beams and gave them to Cyclops, but added a more tragic story to them, I mean, is there any other reason they are both red? Then stuff like Angel is obvious, a character that flies and Iceman is just the opposite of Human Torch.

Anyways, my point is that I firmly believe that Stan Lee was given leaked information about the ideas for the Doom Patrol and had to create the X-Men in an afternoon, probably during his lunch break, so they can publish it first, you do realize that whenever this accusation is brought up that Marvel claims that X-Men #1 was supposed to come out around the time the DP was introduced....but, there was very, very, convenient "lag times". Sure there was, Stan, sure there was. It just sounds like "plausible deniability" to me.

In closing, I just want to say that I don't think ill of Stan Lee,although I may think he just tweaked other peoples ideas and made a career out of it he was still loaded with creativity and comics wouldn't be what they are today without him in any way shape or form. I love the guy. Also, though I believe the X-Men were a stolen, half assed idea, I still think that as Kirby and Lee went along they got into a groove with the characters with their villains and the concepts alluding to the civil rights movement. All stuff that would be very much part of the X-Mens core concepts and what makes them so interesting. I am just saying, I think their inception and first several issues were not a very inspired pursuit.

#12 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: those are some fair points, though I would argue at least some of them are conjecture.

My point was more that, even if you believe the conspiracy that the X-men were based on the Doom Patrol (which I don't, for the reasons I already stated), it still seems far more likely that both of them, especially Doom Patrol, were actually based on the Fantastic Four. So, to my mind, even if Lee was inspired by the Doom Patrol (which, I don't see), he could have felt entirely justified since they were actually a take on his creation already.

I'm not trying to say that all, or any, of Lee's creations were super original, and he himself has noted numerous influences that went into his creations. I also don't have any reason to think he's completely honest about those origins (or that he even accurately remembers them all), but when what he says stands to reason next to the work, why wouldn't I believe it?

One of the points you make that I would especially like to address is the idea that the early issues look rushed; I've noticed that myself about the books, but considering that Kirby was also drawing The Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and other stuff at the same time, while Lee was writing (a lot) of dialogue for literally every book they had, one can understand why some books would end up getting less attention than others.

#13 Posted by Squares (6503 posts) - - Show Bio

I've heard it was in response to the popularity of the Teen Titans.

#14 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: those are some fair points, though I would argue at least some of them are conjecture.

My point was more that, even if you believe the conspiracy that the X-men were based on the Doom Patrol (which I don't, for the reasons I already stated), it still seems far more likely that both of them, especially Doom Patrol, were actually based on the Fantastic Four. So, to my mind, even if Lee was inspired by the Doom Patrol (which, I don't see), he could have felt entirely justified since they were actually a take on his creation already.

I'm not trying to say that all, or any, of Lee's creations were super original, and he himself has noted numerous influences that went into his creations. I also don't have any reason to think he's completely honest about those origins (or that he even accurately remembers them all), but when what he says stands to reason next to the work, why wouldn't I believe it?

One of the points you make that I would especially like to address is the idea that the early issues look rushed; I've noticed that myself about the books, but considering that Kirby was also drawing The Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and other stuff at the same time, while Lee was writing (a lot) of dialogue for literally every book they had, one can understand why some books would end up getting less attention than others.

Why is it easy for you to say "DP took ideas from FF, but there is no way the X-Men took anything from DP"?? thats just funny to me, and sounds kind of biased.

Anyways, I am not denying that the Doom Patrol have obvious ideas taken from the Fantastic Four, just like the FF has some ideas taken from the Challengers of the Unknown. Marvel and DC were just back and forth like that. DC had Green Arrow, Marvel would create Hawkeye, Marvel had Namor, DC created Aquaman etc. Its not a conspiracy saying that they had moles in each others companies seeing as there are all sorts of claims of this happening in EVERY company that has rival companies in the history of man. Whether it be newspapers, fast food chains, film studios, TV networks, publishing companies, tabloids, governments, banks, the list goes on.

I explained what I think about the situation and thats what I believe. Also, I am not saying Stan Lees writing or Kirbys art was bad, I just think the first couple issues were just kind of forced.

#15 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

@emequious_swerve: those are some fair points, though I would argue at least some of them are conjecture.

My point was more that, even if you believe the conspiracy that the X-men were based on the Doom Patrol (which I don't, for the reasons I already stated), it still seems far more likely that both of them, especially Doom Patrol, were actually based on the Fantastic Four. So, to my mind, even if Lee was inspired by the Doom Patrol (which, I don't see), he could have felt entirely justified since they were actually a take on his creation already.

I'm not trying to say that all, or any, of Lee's creations were super original, and he himself has noted numerous influences that went into his creations. I also don't have any reason to think he's completely honest about those origins (or that he even accurately remembers them all), but when what he says stands to reason next to the work, why wouldn't I believe it?

One of the points you make that I would especially like to address is the idea that the early issues look rushed; I've noticed that myself about the books, but considering that Kirby was also drawing The Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and other stuff at the same time, while Lee was writing (a lot) of dialogue for literally every book they had, one can understand why some books would end up getting less attention than others.

Why is it easy for you to say "DP took ideas from FF, but there is no way the X-Men took anything from DP"?? thats just funny to me, and sounds kind of biased.

Anyways, I am not denying that the Doom Patrol have obvious ideas taken from the Fantastic Four, just like the FF has some ideas taken from the Challengers of the Unknown. Marvel and DC were just back and forth like that. DC had Green Arrow, Marvel would create Hawkeye, Marvel had Namor, DC created Aquaman etc. Its not a conspiracy saying that they had moles in each others companies seeing as there are all sorts of claims of this happening in EVERY company that has rival companies in the history of man. Whether it be newspapers, fast food chains, film studios, TV networks, publishing companies, tabloids, governments, banks, the list goes on.

I explained what I think about the situation and thats what I believe. Also, I am not saying Stan Lees writing or Kirbys art was bad, I just think the first couple issues were just kind of forced.

DC and Marvel have been ripping each other off since the 40s. If we're being completely honest many of those characters relegated to public domain obscurity we're the primary inspiration for most of the characters that made Marvel and DC famous and only went away because the big 2 had better lawyers.

#16 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio

@squares said:

I've heard it was in response to the popularity of the Teen Titans.

that actually makes more sense to me (than the Doom Patrol theory), and still doesn't really make it look like a strait rip-off.

Again, Lee has claimed it was in response to the popularity of the Fantastic Four, but even if both were factors, even if he really knew about Doom Patrol, to me those early X-men just really don't feel like a rip-off of any of those teams. if anything, Doom Patrol is a rip-off of FF.

To me, that he was applying the story and art styles of the FF to the basic ideas presented in the Crysalids still just seems like it makes the most sense.

#17 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@squares said:

I've heard it was in response to the popularity of the Teen Titans.

Impossible. Considering the X-Men were around a year before the Teen Titans

Why is it easy for you to say "DP took ideas from FF, but there is no way the X-Men took anything from DP"?? thats just funny to me, and sounds kind of biased.

Anyways, I am not denying that the Doom Patrol have obvious ideas taken from the Fantastic Four, just like the FF has some ideas taken from the Challengers of the Unknown. Marvel and DC were just back and forth like that. DC had Green Arrow, Marvel would create Hawkeye, Marvel had Namor, DC created Aquaman etc. Its not a conspiracy saying that they had moles in each others companies seeing as there are all sorts of claims of this happening in EVERY company that has rival companies in the history of man. Whether it be newspapers, fast food chains, film studios, TV networks, publishing companies, tabloids, governments, banks, the list goes on.

I explained what I think about the situation and thats what I believe. Also, I am not saying Stan Lees writing or Kirbys art was bad, I just think the first couple issues were just kind of forced.

DC and Marvel have been ripping each other off since the 40s. If we're being completely honest many of those characters relegated to public domain obscurity we're the primary inspiration for most of the characters that made Marvel and DC famous and only went away because the big 2 had better lawyers.

I know. I made an allusion to that fact in my post above. I was just using specific examples in trying to make a point.

that actually makes more sense to me (than the Doom Patrol theory), and still doesn't really make it look like a strait rip-off.

Again, Lee has claimed it was in response to the popularity of the Fantastic Four, but even if both were factors, even if he really knew about Doom Patrol, to me those early X-men just really don't feel like a rip-off of any of those teams. if anything, Doom Patrol is a rip-off of FF.

To me, that he was applying the story and art styles of the FF to the basic ideas presented in the Crysalids still just seems like it makes the most sense.

Again. Why is it easy for you to believe that The Doom Patrol ripped off of the Fantastic Four but you can't believe the X-Men ripped off of them?? It just sounds a little biased.

How do you explain all the similarities?? I mean, if the characters just had a similar powers or something you could completely let that slide but the fact that they have the same concept of a team of teenage misfits that aren't recognized as super heroes, or that they are led and mentored by a super intelligent, wealthy, mysterious loner in a wheelchair who happened to be a Doctor, instead of a Professor, or that that Dr. Calder developed inventions and weapons very similar to what Professor X was known to do early on, or that they both developed inventions to facilitate their students abilities, or the the fact that they both referred to their students powers as "gifts" and how they wanted to defend the people that hated and feared them or how about that they both had enemies called "the brotherhood", the fact that they both had very similar taglines on the cover of their first issues.

Again, if it were something like both have leaders in a wheelchair and that was all I could totally let that slide, but, there are way too many blatant similarities. I think its very possible that Marvel had someone working at DC that overheard the ideas about the Doom Patrol and maybe saw some rough drafts and told Marvel. Perhaps as time went on they attempted to make the Doom Patrol more like the Fantastic Four because of its popularity, but I think people not accepting that the X-Men has no real viable similarities to the Patrol are just in denial.

#18 Posted by Squares (6503 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve said:

Again. Why is it easy for you to believe that The Doom Patrol ripped off of the Fantastic Four but you can't believe the X-Men ripped off of them?? It just sounds a little biased.

maybe it is, I'll give you that. But, to me, the Doom Patrol just seem more derivative of the FF than the X-men seem of anything, even including their sloppy early starts. All superhero comics, even the oldest, are derivative of other things -from mythology to classic sci-fi- but to me, even with their sloppy starts, X-men were more original than most; and the Doom Patrol were something else entirely. To me, their similarities are more a matter of zeitgeist than anything else.

Again, if it were something like both have leaders in a wheelchair and that was all I could totally let that slide, but, there are way too many blatant similarities. I think its very possible that Marvel had someone working at DC that overheard the ideas about the Doom Patrol and maybe saw some rough drafts and told Marvel.

and, to me this sounds like complete conjecture. It may just be a matter of sensibility, but to me the similarities sound more coincidental between the two. To me they're the slight at best, especially given all other evidence.

#20 Edited by mechem_93 (122 posts) - - Show Bio
LOL

X-Men are waaay better though.

#21 Edited by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by lorex (954 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly I think at the time they were throwing ideas against the wall to find a successful title and X-Men was one of those that stuck with people.

#23 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11568 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know why they actually created the X-Men but I'm glad they did.

#24 Edited by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Edited by RulerOfThisUniverse (6327 posts) - - Show Bio

Because no one else had ripped off Doom Patrol yet.

Online
#27 Posted by Wolverine08 (42167 posts) - - Show Bio

Because no one else had ripped off Doom Patrol yet.

The Doom Patrol ain't nothing compared to the X-Men now :D

Online
#29 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio

@kazuma14: honestly, I think if anyone has any doubts about the inspiration of the X-men, they can do the reading for themselves and decide.

I'd suggest starting with John Wyndham's novel The_Chrysalids (1955), which Lee himself has cited as an influence. Then read some of Lee and Kiry's early Fantastic Four (1961) issues. To me, those are the major influences.

But for anyone who's still skeptical, read the early appearances of Doom Patrol from My Greatest Adventure #80 - The Doom Patrol (June, 1963). Personally, I think it's pretty unlikely that this book had any significant influence on Lee and Kirby's The X-Men (Sept.'63), and actually seems like more of a take on themes and character dynamics that Lee and Kirby were themselves already exploring (in Fantastic Four), but I do think all of these stories are worth reading anyway.

Once you've read them all, you can at least make up your own informed opinion about it.

#30 Posted by RulerOfThisUniverse (6327 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#31 Posted by Wolverine08 (42167 posts) - - Show Bio

@rulerofthisuniverse:

I don't even get all caught up in the rip off thing. All famous comic book characters like Superman, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Batman, etc. can be considered rip offs. Nothing has been original in this world for millennia.

Online
#32 Edited by RulerOfThisUniverse (6327 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I'm fine with stuff that was inspired by another property, has similar traits, or was a rip off of many different properties...but when you simply copy a character or team (Deathstroke & Deadpool, DOOM PATROL & X-MEN) it's not cool. Seriously though, they were both a team of younger characters with individual, unique powers, had a wheelchair-bound older genius mentor, and were advertised as "The World's Strangest Heroes!" and "The Strangest Super-Heroes of All!" among many other similarities. And this is coming from a guy who thinks X-Men are the second best Marvel property.

Online
#33 Posted by Wolverine08 (42167 posts) - - Show Bio

@rulerofthisuniverse:

I see your point, but for one, I don't even consider Deadpool a rip off of Deathstroke. Pool is a clown, while Slade is dead serious, Slade is one of the world's most dangerous men, Deadpool is a joke that irritates other people in the Marvel Universe, etc. He's more of a cheap parody of Deathstroke more than anything IMO. And regarding the X-Men/Doom Patrol, at least the X-Men have been able to develop their own niche. And like I said, I really don't worry about if the comic characters are original or not. Everything is inspired by something. I just hope the people who did the inspiring get their credit.

Online
#34 Edited by RulerOfThisUniverse (6327 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: The way I've heard it is that when Liefeld first created and published Pool, he was a completely dead serious ripoff of Stroke and that later on, a different writer rewrote him as a parody. I might be wrong, though. Sometimes it really does piss me off when I think about how much more popular Pool is than Stroke, or how many people don't know that he's a ripoff. I've heard at least a dozen people say that Stroke is a ripoff of Pool...

Online
#35 Posted by Wolverine08 (42167 posts) - - Show Bio

@rulerofthisuniverse:

Yeah actually, Rob Hackfield (worst comic book writer ever in my opinion) wrote Pool as a complete rip off Slade at the beginning of his creation. It was when Joe Kelly got his hands on Deadpool that he crafted him into his own unique character that his fans like. And I guess Deadpool's comedic style probably appeals to non comic book readers. I mean, we already have Batman for uber serious badass! :D

Online
#36 Posted by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Posted by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by milkylame (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Always thought the civil rights movement helped inspire Stan.

#39 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio

@kazuma14: sorry if that seemed condescending. it's just that your question seemed vague, so I wanted to clarify.

was it the italics?

#40 Posted by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4560 posts) - - Show Bio

@kazuma14: huh.

well, sorry either way; 'wasn't my intention.

#42 Edited by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by mikex20 (2769 posts) - - Show Bio

Greed and laziness.

They wanted to cash in on the popularity of younger heroes, and didn't feel like creating different reasons for how they all got powers. So Stan said they were just born with them.

#44 Posted by Kazuma14 (1250 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (3165 posts) - - Show Bio

@mikex20 said:

Greed and laziness.

They wanted to cash in on the popularity of younger heroes, and didn't feel like creating different reasons for how they all got powers. So Stan said they were just born with them.

Yeah and instead of someone getting powers because of a freak accident(peter parker got bitten or FF "Cosmic Rays" or invention(Captain America super soldier serum)