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#51 Posted by Roddy010 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

@lordofallhumans said:

@ageofhurricane said:

@lordofallhumans: Because weather patterns are everywhere and the present environment doesn't pose as much a barrier to overcome as much as her body does, in terms of how powerful she can become, which is the point of the OP.

If she isn't accustomed to an extraterrestrial environment, then it won't take long for her to adapt to the environment and/or planet to work with what's available as opposed to just head-on manipulation. Making it rain on the sun is a bit hyperbolic and well beyond her current reach, and she wouldn't need to create a hurricane in space as she can control the solar winds, among other things.

She does her best work in an atmosphere.

It doesn't matter if she needed to make a hurricane in space, she can't do it which means being in space does limit her powers, because there are things she can't do there. She can do other things in space but she can't do that. Making it rain (snow) on the sun is not that hyperbolic in worlds with reality warpers, all in all it is a limit that she will always have (because of the location she can't create the conditions needed to make snow or rain) unless she becomes a reality warper.

I'm not taking away from how her powers work and am fully aware of her ability to attune to other environments, my point is if those environments do not support certain phenomena then she cannot create it and thus her powers become limited due to the environment. You seem to be under the impression that I am talking about her strength when I say limited, I'm talking about the feats she can accomplish which will change.

You are also arguing my post as if I said her body has nothing to do with her limits. What I want to know is how can environment not be one of her limitations? In the event that the atmosphere is limited, if there is only enough water and moisture in an entire environment to fill a bucket of water, then Storm cannot cause a flood, she is limited by the environment in this instance. She even makes reference to using her powers being more difficult when she in on the Blue Area of the Moon, which had a limited atmosphere, it didn't weaken her actual power, but it did make her powers more difficult to use, a limitation, that has nothing to do with her will or body.

Yes, but creating a hurricane in space in addition to making it rain on the sun (for crying out loud, again) are feats that haven't been claimed by anyone for her to do, so i'm not sure what the persistent point-stressing is all about as well as why you're deviating from the general topic. Yes, apologies, the environment she's in does matter and you're quite right with those examples, but limitations of feats are not the point of this thread--it's about power/strength--which like i said, in her case, is limited by her body.

The point in stressing them is to illustrate how environment is a factor in the use of her powers. We were never discussing the general topic, a poster said her will was her only limitation, and I suggested environment would also be a limitation, because that poster went on discussing her abilities to manipulate atmospheric phenomena, then you suggested her body was her only limitation. So I've stayed on topic as far as the discussion that we were having in this thread. I also believe I said location doesn't weaken her, but it's still a limitation to what she can do. I have taken nothing from her power/strength, only explained that her full arsenal is not at her disposal when she is outside of an atmosphere or in a limited one.

Yes environment is a major factor in Storm's powers, however I wouldn't call it a limitation far from it actually. You're right about her depending on available resources in her environment, but you overlooked the fact that Storm's powers also adapt to different environments, meaning the more potential. It's been stated that if it has an atmosphere Storm can manipulate it. An Atmosphere exist pretty much everywhere except maybe outside the realms of reality. So Storm's powers are always availible to her. In a atmosphere with unique or more powerful sources of energy only make her powers more vast. In Space, she's been able to generate lightning powerful enough to destroy a Skrull Ship in one shot as well as batter them, create a Force 12 Gale force wind backed by the full power of the sun, and even stretch Earth's atmosphere. (Her powers are actually amplified in Space) Her natural power to adapt is what makes her versatile not exactly limited.

Even on Earth she has multiple sources of energy to tap into including Thermal, Kinetic, Electrical, Electromagnetic (this is a big one :P), Radiant and Chemical Energy. Each of these sources of energy have massive potential, especially EM Energy. So I wouldn't say she's necessarily limited just because her powers fluctuate with the environment.

#52 Edited by SirNickTheEpic (589 posts) - - Show Bio

interms of physical attributes

juggernaut colossus

#53 Edited by XsPectre28 (714 posts) - - Show Bio

if everyone is fully powered id have to go with Nate Grey as the most powerful

#54 Edited by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@osiris1428 said:

Depending on how much stored bio-energy he has, Bishop is not at all weak.

But remember, Bishop can only hold so much energy before it has the opposite effect, and starts to cause him to weaken. He's not on Shaw's level.

@john_valentine said:

Shame he's such an irritating and odious character.

Yes, Self-friend. I have trouble putting up with him and by extension Cypher cause Warlock is just so silly a character for me to find interesting.

@chiq said:

A lot of people seem to forget about Warlock. In terms of sheer power and potential he would really be up there vying for the title of most powerful new mutant along side Magik and Nate. Shaman x-man, Darkchilde and Warlock going all Magus on everyone would arguably make the New Mutants such a powerful team.

Damn you, Sir or ma'am. I know not which, but you just said the two people I'd love to see interact. Given that both lines (Rasputins and Summers) have a tie to Sinister, Both have phenomenal power yet it's also the source of their problem (Illyana lost and quest to be her soul back and Nate's trying to stop his powers from killing him.), and both never really had much of a childhood. Their interaction was teased in the Fear Itself tie-in of New Mutants which sparked my interest in seeing more of the two interacting with one another.

You can just sense the awkward sexual tension. LMAO.

ok magik creeped me out there

#55 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3449 posts) - - Show Bio

For the most powerful, I'd go with high level psychics or reality manipulators, since those tend to trump most of the limits energy manipulators face: Jean Grey, Nate Grey, Rachel Grey and "true Legion" are on the short list of most powerful.

I agree that defining the weakest is difficult since a relatively weak power can be quite useful or lethal in the right situation. I'd tend to say that the X-Men represent the best and brightest of the students and staff at the school, so to get to that level requires having some form of utilitarian ability. I'd put Cypher right on the cusp of being between the weakest and having a useful power, since hand-to-hand expertise isn't that useful in a world where everyone seems to wear body armor or carry firearms whereas linguistic ability also doesn't seem that useful up front but could be very good to have depending on the situation. Maybe put Domino in that rank, since her power doesn't seem as helpful as her actual skills, but then again it's kept her alive very long.

#56 Posted by numi (187 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@lordofallhumans said:

@ageofhurricane said:

@lordofallhumans said:

@ageofhurricane said:

@lordofallhumans: Because weather patterns are everywhere and the present environment doesn't pose as much a barrier to overcome as much as her body does, in terms of how powerful she can become, which is the point of the OP.

If she isn't accustomed to an extraterrestrial environment, then it won't take long for her to adapt to the environment and/or planet to work with what's available as opposed to just head-on manipulation. Making it rain on the sun is a bit hyperbolic and well beyond her current reach, and she wouldn't need to create a hurricane in space as she can control the solar winds, among other things.

She does her best work in an atmosphere.

It doesn't matter if she needed to make a hurricane in space, she can't do it which means being in space does limit her powers, because there are things she can't do there. She can do other things in space but she can't do that. Making it rain (snow) on the sun is not that hyperbolic in worlds with reality warpers, all in all it is a limit that she will always have (because of the location she can't create the conditions needed to make snow or rain) unless she becomes a reality warper.

I'm not taking away from how her powers work and am fully aware of her ability to attune to other environments, my point is if those environments do not support certain phenomena then she cannot create it and thus her powers become limited due to the environment. You seem to be under the impression that I am talking about her strength when I say limited, I'm talking about the feats she can accomplish which will change.

You are also arguing my post as if I said her body has nothing to do with her limits. What I want to know is how can environment not be one of her limitations? In the event that the atmosphere is limited, if there is only enough water and moisture in an entire environment to fill a bucket of water, then Storm cannot cause a flood, she is limited by the environment in this instance. She even makes reference to using her powers being more difficult when she in on the Blue Area of the Moon, which had a limited atmosphere, it didn't weaken her actual power, but it did make her powers more difficult to use, a limitation, that has nothing to do with her will or body.

Yes, but creating a hurricane in space in addition to making it rain on the sun (for crying out loud, again) are feats that haven't been claimed by anyone for her to do, so i'm not sure what the persistent point-stressing is all about as well as why you're deviating from the general topic. Yes, apologies, the environment she's in does matter and you're quite right with those examples, but limitations of feats are not the point of this thread--it's about power/strength--which like i said, in her case, is limited by her body.

The point in stressing them is to illustrate how environment is a factor in the use of her powers. We were never discussing the general topic, a poster said her will was her only limitation, and I suggested environment would also be a limitation, because that poster went on discussing her abilities to manipulate atmospheric phenomena, then you suggested her body was her only limitation. So I've stayed on topic as far as the discussion that we were having in this thread. I also believe I said location doesn't weaken her, but it's still a limitation to what she can do. I have taken nothing from her power/strength, only explained that her full arsenal is not at her disposal when she is outside of an atmosphere or in a limited one.

Yes environment is a major factor in Storm's powers, however I wouldn't call it a limitation far from it actually. You're right about her depending on available resources in her environment, but you overlooked the fact that Storm's powers also adapt to different environments, meaning the more potential. It's been stated that if it has an atmosphere Storm can manipulate it. An Atmosphere exist pretty much everywhere except maybe outside the realms of reality. So Storm's powers are always availible to her. In a atmosphere with unique or more powerful sources of energy only make her powers more vast. In Space, she's been able to generate lightning powerful enough to destroy a Skrull Ship in one shot as well as batter them, create a Force 12 Gale force wind backed by the full power of the sun, and even stretch Earth's atmosphere. (Her powers are actually amplified in Space) Her natural power to adapt is what makes her versatile not exactly limited.

Even on Earth she has multiple sources of energy to tap into including Thermal, Kinetic, Electrical, Electromagnetic (this is a big one :P), Radiant and Chemical Energy. Each of these sources of energy have massive potential, especially EM Energy. So I wouldn't say she's necessarily limited just because her powers fluctuate with the environment.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa..... You're saying she controls ALL forms of energy now? If that's true she just went into my overpowered and in need of a massive nerf list.

#57 Posted by Roddy010 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@numi: I never said she controlled all forms of energy just the multiple forms of energy that dictate weather, which includes each of the ones I just mentioned and potentially more. Also writers today have nerfed her quite enough making her the premiere lightning lass and completely forgetting about her other abilities.

#58 Posted by devilsgrin81 (535 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@numi: I never said she controlled all forms of energy just the multiple forms of energy that dictate weather, which includes each of the ones I just mentioned and potentially more. Also writers today have nerfed her quite enough making her the premiere lightning lass and completely forgetting about her other abilities.

its a shame that she has been so relegated... Lightning Lass.... lol

You're also correct tho, in that she can tap several sources of energy to fuel her powers. It seems fairly static across all the truly high level Energy Manipulators - Storm, Polaris, Scarlett Witch, Magneto (of course) among others, that they have far more diversity to their abilities than is seen at first glance. Initially we're presenter with An Atmokinetic, two magnetics and a Chaos warper... But we're really being presented with very high level energy manipulation - and in Storm, Magneto and Polaris' case, they're manipulating the same electro-magnetic energies to affect significantly different outcomes - based in part, its assumed, due to environmental factors when their powers manifested (and perhaps genes, and yet there is a chance that Lorna's powers became magnetic once she knew she was Magneto's daughter - a kind of self-fulfilling destiny). Wanda is theorised (by Charles) to be actually an EXTREMELY high level telekinetic with atomic level manipulation - resulting in the warping of those atoms into wildly erratic results. Unfortunately its hard to tell since her energy powers are tainted by chaos magic.

Magneto and Polaris however, unlike Storm, have yet to show they are able to harness as varied sources of energy as Storm. Electro-Magnetism is particularly powerful and influential - theres little need to use others when its so readily available. Its perhaps why Storm is suspected to be a potential omega, but neither Magneto or Polaris are in the running for that position - which makes Storm's candidacy all the more impressive considering the feats we've seen from Magneto. ((not to take anything from Polaris' feats - none the least being able to draw nourishment from the electro-magnetosphere, she also did some spectacular things whilst she was a Starjammer))

As to the OP and the strongest TRUE X-Men... I do NOT rank them, but will list... I omit Legion, Nate Grey and Elixir as none are true x-men -having never served on the proper, first string X-Men team, and Quire as he has not yet become one. Though all four would certainly qualify.

Jean Grey - after Phoenix - before Phoenix unlocked her powers, she was a wimp, and would not have become an omega.

Rachel Grey - she's pretty epic. Though now she has no Phoenix fragment she's showing her limitations a bit more.

Storm

Magneto

Polaris

Professor X

Havok - vastly more powerful than Cyclops...

Iceman - finally coming into his Omega status.

The White Queen - she is definitely a true x-man now, and all omega CLASS telepaths are monstrously powerful. Scary thought of the day - Emma Frost as an Omega LEVEL telepath... playing on even terms with Jean or Charles on the astral plane... She's wielded phoenix - both on her own and as 1 of the 5... she psi-spanked Rachel telepathically, showing being omega class means you can at least challenge omega level (Rachel is a poor-woman's Jean tho, so ...). Given time she took down Charles. Given the power she wouldn't even need the time. She's utterly devoted to her causes - particularly her students (which was always the way Marvel was going to redeem this most intriguing Hellfire villain) and she's chillingly ruthless.

The weakest - in terms of powers alone. Exclusive of Skill-sets, experience and so-called "deadliness." Obviously all X-Men who make the premier team are powerful or useful in someway, but in terms of power output... the weakest must be...

Beast

Wolverine

Shadowcat

Angel

Rogue and Bishop (both because each needs another's powers or power source to actually have usable powers)

Armor - she was on the top team for a minute or two, but its long enough to earn a rank...

#59 Posted by Roddy010 (5135 posts) - - Show Bio

@devilsgrin81: Very nice post and I couldn't agree more. I believe Storm and Magneto being considered Omega is mainly due to the vast amount of feats they've pulled over the years. Magneto best feats are siphoning energy from Jupiter and reconstructing a baby Celestial showing fine control and a decent range. Storm's greatest feats are channeling the full energies of a galactic core (she was in the core for this tho) and creating cosmic turbulence around the earth to block solar flares. Each form of energy she can manipulate has so much potential that she as many options available to her even in a limited or artificial environment.

As for your list I can agree with everything except Emma being in the League of Charles and Jean considering the feats these two have accomplished. Charles has scanned the galaxy, conversed with his X- men light-years away, has two global feats and has endured being on multiple planes of existence simultaneously. Jean has splintered Charles' consciousness and spread it across the planet and has done feats deemed impossible. Emma is a world class telepath in her own right but when you compare feats the odds are against her.

#60 Posted by DarkDay (496 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just curious as to how Gambit got to be one of the weakest. LOL

Seriously?

Has everyone just forgotten what his back story is or just how crazy his abilities are with him not messing around and how potentially far they can go if he were willing to develop them. Honestly he is in the same league as Iceman, being a character that is horrifically powerful if they so chose but they refuse to develop said power for their own reasons. I get that the X-Men have a lot of raw power and most of the higher end are people that are matter or reality manipulators or at least pretty close to those, but come on. The bar is hardly so high that Gambit is one of the weakest...

If anything is at the bottom then it is people with purely physical abilities. If you aren't an energy manipulator of some sort then yeah you are probably one of the weaker X-Men.

#61 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3449 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday said:

I'm just curious as to how Gambit got to be one of the weakest. LOL

Seriously?

Has everyone just forgotten what his back story is or just how crazy his abilities are with him not messing around and how potentially far they can go if he were willing to develop them. Honestly he is in the same league as Iceman, being a character that is horrifically powerful if they so chose but they refuse to develop said power for their own reasons. I get that the X-Men have a lot of raw power and most of the higher end are people that are matter or reality manipulators or at least pretty close to those, but come on. The bar is hardly so high that Gambit is one of the weakest...

If anything is at the bottom then it is people with purely physical abilities. If you aren't an energy manipulator of some sort then yeah you are probably one of the weaker X-Men.

Yes. I think that is what happens when a writer amps up a character's abilities for a few feat-creating scenes or contained storylines but no one else on the creative team really follows it up. The character ends up in a limbo-like, mid-tier space. A lot of X characters tend to end up in that space, lol.

I agree that the weakest would tend to be people with purely physical abilities that are of marginal use or heavily situation dependent.

#62 Edited by Denam_Pavel (147 posts) - - Show Bio

Strongest - Nate Grey

Weakest - Toad

#63 Posted by lorex (945 posts) - - Show Bio

If you are talking about the raw power they possess then Legion is the most powerful by far. Honorable mentions go to Cable/Nate Grey. The problem with all three is that they never seem to be able to use the full range of their powers. Legion is constantly struggling with his multiple personalities. Without that interference we have seen brief moments where legion has killed gods. Cable/Nate Grey are at the upper end of the Telepathy and Telepathic scale but they never seem to be able to use the full effect of their powers. Is it just that they are X-Men and have to be seen as vunerable because it never seems to be a problem with the Avengers. Thor, Hyperion and others seem to be able to use their full powers little problem so why do mutants always have to have some kind of handicap?

#64 Edited by adamTRMM (1283 posts) - - Show Bio

@lorex said:

Thor, Hyperion and others seem to be able to use their full powers little problem so why do mutants always have to have some kind of handicap?

I was annoyed by this as well, but characters like Thor and Juggernaut get downplayed regularly, if we compare them to their classic selves it becomes obvious. It's kinda the Marvel's way, you cannot be a powerhouse without being in danger of burning yourself out, going insane, becoming somebody's punch bag bc it's needed to show how powerful this somebody is, being a pot device or just being downplayed because he/she is too powerful to be a team player. The only powerhouses that get their respect are Hulk, Thanos and Doom as far as I've seen.

#65 Edited by WestfriesianMan (233 posts) - - Show Bio

Top 5 most powerful regular x-men

  1. Jean Grey
  2. Rachel Grey
  3. Cable (full power)
  4. Iceman
  5. Magik

Top 5 least powerful regular x-men

  1. Forge
  2. Beast
  3. Archangel
  4. Jubilee
  5. Shadowcat
#66 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (9972 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@numi: I never said she controlled all forms of energy just the multiple forms of energy that dictate weather, which includes each of the ones I just mentioned and potentially more. Also writers today have nerfed her quite enough making her the premiere lightning lass and completely forgetting about her other abilities.

Tell me about it. Hopefully this changes in 2014.

#67 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

strongest- legion(the abilities just like franklin richards) or jean grey with phoenix powers

weak- angel before he became archangel

#68 Posted by hyiena (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

Cypher is pretty weak.

#69 Posted by DarkDay (496 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday said:

I'm just curious as to how Gambit got to be one of the weakest. LOL

Seriously?

Has everyone just forgotten what his back story is or just how crazy his abilities are with him not messing around and how potentially far they can go if he were willing to develop them. Honestly he is in the same league as Iceman, being a character that is horrifically powerful if they so chose but they refuse to develop said power for their own reasons. I get that the X-Men have a lot of raw power and most of the higher end are people that are matter or reality manipulators or at least pretty close to those, but come on. The bar is hardly so high that Gambit is one of the weakest...

If anything is at the bottom then it is people with purely physical abilities. If you aren't an energy manipulator of some sort then yeah you are probably one of the weaker X-Men.

Yes. I think that is what happens when a writer amps up a character's abilities for a few feat-creating scenes or contained storylines but no one else on the creative team really follows it up. The character ends up in a limbo-like, mid-tier space. A lot of X characters tend to end up in that space, lol.

I agree that the weakest would tend to be people with purely physical abilities that are of marginal use or heavily situation dependent.

What I'm referring to is how originally his powers didn't require touch and in this form killed an entire theater full of people inadvertently . That's an established part of the character, it being a pretty big part of his backstory and the reason he has joined force with Sinister in the past. It was even tackled again withn the advent of Gambit's Death persona being created by Apocalypse. See the thing is, when it has been brought up by more than one writer and is even an established part of a character...then it ceases to be plot power. X characters do tend to get a lot of upgrades with subsequent writers forgetting about them or deciding to retcon. But I'd argue that it is a big cast and without Marvel itself keeping track of things, well every writer can't know everything about every character. It would be nice if they could mind you, but it totally isn't feasible. Also that part about the cast being big honestly leads to more limbo than anything. XD

As for weakest-strongest comparison, I look at it as a contest of damage output or ability effect for powers that aren't purely offensive in nature. Telepathy for example isn't purely offensive, so to ask how useful a mutant's telepathy is, how effective is it? In comparison to other telepaths? That scale works pretty well for the most part.

#70 Edited by devilsgrin81 (535 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@devilsgrin81: Very nice post and I couldn't agree more. I believe Storm and Magneto being considered Omega is mainly due to the vast amount of feats they've pulled over the years. Magneto best feats are siphoning energy from Jupiter and reconstructing a baby Celestial showing fine control and a decent range. Storm's greatest feats are channeling the full energies of a galactic core (she was in the core for this tho) and creating cosmic turbulence around the earth to block solar flares. Each form of energy she can manipulate has so much potential that she as many options available to her even in a limited or artificial environment.

As for your list I can agree with everything except Emma being in the League of Charles and Jean considering the feats these two have accomplished. Charles has scanned the galaxy, conversed with his X- men light-years away, has two global feats and has endured being on multiple planes of existence simultaneously. Jean has splintered Charles' consciousness and spread it across the planet and has done feats deemed impossible. Emma is a world class telepath in her own right but when you compare feats the odds are against her.

i certainly don't think Emma IS in Jean or Charles' league. I suggested that any telepath of omega class should always be considered one of the most powerful of all the x-men. hence why i did NOT list psylocke... I hypothesised a world in which Emma was an Omega Level Telepath - one in which she was as powerful as Jean and Charles - as being very scary. Having said that there are instances of Emma besting Charles. Mostly through stealth, but she has done it before and more than once. Not to Jean of course, but The Ms. Grey is in another league even from Charles...

I think Magneto's catching and pulling back the Breakworld bullet containing Kitty as his greatest feat so far. Those you listed for Storm need no further elaboration.

#71 Edited by guy15s (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I had to make an account to say this. If "all X-Men are fully powered," doesn't that make Gambit New Son? He would have kinetic control down to the molecular level, is immune to telepathy unless he allows it, can travel through time, has complete kinetic awareness of his surroundings, can become a being composed of pure energy, can completely paralyze his opponents and control their movements, and can use his control of kinetic energy to augment his own physical capabilities. As New Son, there really isn't a contest against almost anybody in the Marvel Universe, let alone the X-Men.

Also, Jean Grey at her most powerful is only more powerful than Xavier because of the Phoenix, which is a separate entity that isn't a member of the X-Men, technically. Unless Jean Grey is actually more powerful without the Phoenix. I just remember her being just under Xavier, but being able to use telekinetics as well. That would put her above Xavier for the versatility, but there are other members that are better, Emma Frost being one since she has a competitive amount of power in addition to powers like her crystal form. Maybe I missed the issues where Jean Grey had her power without the Phoenix or somehow consumed the Phoenix or whatever, though. In that case, I would consider her... well, still below Gambit, but pretty powerful. :p

#72 Posted by Lucas996 (73 posts) - - Show Bio

1st - Storm
2nd - Iceman
and Magneto !! :D

Storm power's more stronger i think .... and in my think , she's more powerful than Thor and everybody of the x-men ... !!!! :D

#73 Posted by adamTRMM (1283 posts) - - Show Bio

lol

#74 Posted by devilsgrin81 (535 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucas996: dude i worship Storm... but you're crazy... lol Of your list... Maybe... maybe.. but more powerful than Thor? sorry ... just no. When she had Stormcaller, definitely she was his equal. But Storm has never been more powerful than Thor.

#75 Edited by tompritchard (2 posts) - - Show Bio

magneto

jean grey

emma frost

iceman

nightcrawler/azazel