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#1 Edited by Rabbitearsblog (5768 posts) - - Show Bio

What moments in the X-Men comics do you think were all-time lows for the X-Men? For example, some fans have said that it was during Chris Claremont's run on Exiles, or it was during Matt Fraction's run when the X-Men moved to Utopia or Schism.

#2 Posted by Wolverine08 (38176 posts) - - Show Bio

Schism.

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#3 Edited by frozenedge (1122 posts) - - Show Bio

Schism and Battle of the Atom. Even Old Bobby said it was the X-Men at their worst. When the joker of the X-Men says it's bad, you know that's when it's bad

#4 Posted by Jake Fury (18064 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Utopia
  • Dark X-Men
  • Schism
  • AvX.
#6 Edited by Rabbitearsblog (5768 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozenedge said:

Schism and Battle of the Atom. Even Old Bobby said it was the X-Men at their worst. When the joker of the X-Men says it's bad, you know that's when it's bad

Since I haven't been reading Battle of the Atom, I can't really comment on that, but I definitely agree about Schism. The X-Men splitting up at a time when things were going bad for the mutant population? That's just terrible right there.

#7 Posted by Xwraith (14682 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Utopia
  • Dark X-Men
  • Schism
  • AvX.

I can't help but notice that all of these happened in the past 5-6 years.

And to think that the X-Men were once Marvel's hot property.

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#8 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5768 posts) - - Show Bio

@xwraith said:

@jake_fury said:
  • Utopia
  • Dark X-Men
  • Schism
  • AvX.

I can't help but notice that all of these happened in the past 5-6 years.

And to think that the X-Men were once Marvel's hot property.

It's quite a shame too.

#9 Posted by Xwraith (14682 posts) - - Show Bio

It's quite a shame too.

But we did get Peter David's X-Factor and Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force in that period.

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#10 Edited by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

The 90s were pretty bad. The early 90s suffered from the fact that Claremont and imagination altogether left the book, and the mid to late 90s suffered from comics losing popularity and redundancy. I really believe it was the success of the X-Men film and Grant Morrisons run in the early 2000s that revitalized the X-Men, but, thats just my opinion.

Also everyone seems to forget the late 60s were a pretty bad time for the X-Men. I mean they did technically get canceled.

#11 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5768 posts) - - Show Bio

@xwraith said:

@rabbitearsblog said:

It's quite a shame too.

But we did get Peter David's X-Factor and Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force in that period.

That's true! :D

#12 Posted by HAWK2916 (1566 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: This. Schism and BOTA were just unforgiveable. Avx had more potential bit overall was not a bad story. Then again I may have a bit of a soft spot for AVX simply because it got me interested again. The idea of Schism wasnt terrible, I just think the story and the reason was stupid. Ive always felt that Schism should have come along with or as a result of AVX

#13 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1552 posts) - - Show Bio

AvX and Schism are the two that immediately come to mind.

Edit: Oh and that entire business with Warren becoming the heir of Apocalypse. Don't even know what the heck that was.

#14 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (9892 posts) - - Show Bio

Schism and Battle of the Atom. Even Old Bobby said it was the X-Men at their worst. When the joker of the X-Men says it's bad, you know that's when it's bad

Pretty much this.

#15 Posted by Tohoma (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

Schism and AvX

#16 Edited by Robert2928 (51 posts) - - Show Bio

Schism...Schism to the max. Children as villians and X-Men freaking out over one sentinel. It seemed like one bad danger room session lol

#17 Edited by Ryagan (601 posts) - - Show Bio

The '90s.

#18 Posted by HumanRocket (7091 posts) - - Show Bio

I heard AvX was pretty bad.

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#19 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1088 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Schism
  • AvX
  • BoTA
  • The O5 returning in general
  • Hope in general
  • The fact Magneto's powers went wonky when he had nothing to do with the Phoenix Force.
  • WaTX in general

The list honestly goes on for the X-Men... These last few years have been HORRIBLE.

#20 Edited by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

I still like where the x-men currently are. I think the stories are entertaining *shrug*

Schism was pretty bad though

#21 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4197 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what I think were some of the lowest points for the X-men:

  • Most of Claremont's work after the Mutant Massacre (1986). While I know lots of people romanticize this era, it was pretty bad compared to what Claremont had been doing through the early 80's. That it was a low point for the team may have been kind of the point, it was still not very fun to read. With the notable exception of the original Genosha story (which is really quite good), I don't really care for most of his work through the late 80's. And I find his later returns to the characters were even worse.
  • Most of the late 90's. After Lobdell left, the X-men suffered through a revolving door of creators that never really caught their stride before someone else came along and tried to reinvent them in more and more contrived ways until around the time Morrison showed up with New X-men and did it right.
  • The latter half of Morrison's run. Pretty much everything after Xorn removes his helmet is pretty crappy, in my oppinion.
  • Most of the stuff between Brubaker's run and Regenesis. There are some cool story ideas in this era, I, myself, didn't really mind Schism, but it just felt like most of them were executed in pretty ham-fisted ways.
  • Battle of the Atom. Same as above, some cool ideas that were, ultimately, sloppily executed. Everyone should have just read The Arms of the Octopus instead.

Really, most events and crossovers are going to end up being more ham-fisted and contrived than any solid, self contained run, largely because they become the vehicles for changes to the status quo that the regular books have to deal with and clean up after; Though in that way, like in the case of Schism, Avengers Vs. X-Men (,and hopefully Battle of the Atom), they can still act as the basis for some good stories once or as the dust settles.

#22 Posted by Ryagan (601 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what I think were some of the lowest points for the X-men:

  • Most of Claremont's work after the Mutant Massacre (1986). While I know lots of people romanticize this era, it was pretty bad compared to what Claremont had been doing through the early 80's. That it was a low point for the team may have been kind of the point, it was still not very fun to read. With the notable exception of the original Genosha story (which is really quite good), I don't really care for most of his work through the late 80's. And I find his later returns to the characters were even worse.
  • Most of the late 90's. After Lobdell left, the X-men suffered through a revolving door of creators that never really caught their stride before someone else came along and tried to reinvent them in more and more contrived ways until around the time Morrison showed up with New X-men and did it right.

I actually don't like the original Genosha story. The art kind of sucks, and the story didn't live up to its potential. I think the animated series did it better. But yeah, Claremont's work started to get really bad after a while. Also, am I the only one who can't stand X-Tinction Agenda?

  • The latter half of Morrison's run. Pretty much everything after Xorn removes his helmet is pretty crappy, in my oppinion.

I actually loved the latter half of Morrison's run just as much as the rest of it. Am I the only one who does? Most people seem to dislike Planet X, but I couldn't put it down. Grant Morrison took a HUGE risk with that arc, and to me, it paid off. That's probably just me, though.

#23 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7257 posts) - - Show Bio

@ryagan: It's not just you. I loved all of Morrison's run. All of it. Every. Single. Damn. Page. I can understand the feelings of malicious disdain towards the Xorn/Magneto thingie, but Morrison's just a something else. He took the X-Men to a different level and defied the societal story-telling stereotypes by stepping out of the sand-box and playing with the more advanced toys. It hasn't been done like that ever since.

#24 Edited by Ryagan (601 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: Thank you! I was beginning to think I was the only one! I was completely fine with the Xorn twist. Morrison's entire run was gutsy and inventive. I wish more writers would take risks like that. I guess Bendis took a big risk bringing back the original five, but Morrison's risks were for more drastic.

#25 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7257 posts) - - Show Bio
  • To me, it began when the Fraction-era of Scott, Emma, Wolverine and the collateral X-Men represented a once proud franchise. It's been pretty bad in terms of overall, line-wide noticable quality ever since, but it started with him and they haven't recovered from having this penchant for writers who aren't fans of the characters they're writing. At least during Austen's run, you had Morrison and Claremont to provide much needed bursts of sunshine over that particular raincloud.
  • What we have currently. Relaunch after relaunch is only indicative of one thing: creativity amongst editorial is reaching a stand still and they're now at imaginative bankruptcy. You have writers like Wood, Hopeless, Spurrier and Pad, but then you've got Aaron and Bendis headlining the franchise in disrespect towards established history. And then you've got the putrefying products of their work: Battle of The Atom, and that's not even the half of it.

Not that there haven't been gems amidst the stagnant rubble (Wood's X-Men and his Alpha and Omega, most of Pak's work and a few chip ins from obscure writers during Nation X), but the rubble takes the majority.

#26 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4197 posts) - - Show Bio

@ryagan said:

I actually don't like the original Genosha story. The art kind of sucks, and the story didn't live up to its potential. I think the animated series did it better. But yeah, Claremont's work started to get really bad after a while. Also, am I the only one who can't stand X-Tinction Agenda?

To me, X-Tinction Agenda was just trying to make a crossover out of a story that had already been done (better, in my opinion) in the original Genosha story. It's a watered-down sequel for the sake of a crossover. Like most crossovers, it was not as well executed as regular issues of any of the series involved and is really only relevant for it's effects to the status quo (in this case, the beginning of the X-men coming back together after years apart).

#27 Edited by Ryagan (601 posts) - - Show Bio

@ryagan said:

I actually don't like the original Genosha story. The art kind of sucks, and the story didn't live up to its potential. I think the animated series did it better. But yeah, Claremont's work started to get really bad after a while. Also, am I the only one who can't stand X-Tinction Agenda?

To me, X-Tinction Agenda was just trying to make a crossover out of a story that had already been done (better, in my opinion) in the original Genosha story. It's a watered-down sequel for the sake of a crossover. Like most crossovers, it was not as well executed as regular issues of any of the series involved and is really only relevant for it's effects to the status quo (in this case, the beginning of the X-men coming back together after years apart).

Yeah. It really does feel like a longer, bigger version of the first Genosha story. Also, whoever wrote Gambit in New Mutants at the time didn't understand the character at all. He used words such as "whom" and spoke properly. That's NOT Gambit...

#28 Posted by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

The 90s were pretty bad. The early 90s suffered from the fact that Claremont and imagination altogether left the book, and the mid to late 90s suffered from comics losing popularity and redundancy. I really believe it was the success of the X-Men film and Grant Morrisons run in the early 2000s that revitalized the X-Men, but, thats just my opinion.

Also everyone seems to forget the late 60s were a pretty bad time for the X-Men. I mean they did technically get canceled.

There was nothing wrong with early 1990's . Fatal Attractions, X-Cuitoner Song and Age of Apocalypse. Blue and Gold teams were some of the best period in comics.

I think worst period in comics have been the last 12 years. How many bad decisions has marvel made over the years. How many characters have Marvel destroy or treated badly. Jean Grey, Charles, Magneto, Storm, Bishop, Jubilee, Iceman and Nightcrawler. Not to mention the demise of the X-ladies and destruction of X-Men couples.

Hell I can think of , so many reasons why comics have been at there worst over the last 12 years.

Having comics center around Cyclops, Emma and Wolverine over the last 6 years have been the worst thing for X-Men comics.

#29 Edited by xybernauts (858 posts) - - Show Bio

@time: I agree. The early 90's had some pretty good books in my opinion. I enjoyed the creation and development of Cable's character and his relationship with X-Force and Stryfe. The original Age of Apocalypse was great. It was the late 90's that stunk.

I didn't really read any X-Men stories during the first millennium. I tried but it didn't keep my interest. I particularly hated the black movie style X-Men costumes though. I tried Age of M, but I think that story really was terrible.

As for AvX I actually like that story. It got me reading X-Men comics again and the story made sense. I also liked BOTA. I enjoyed the twisted temporal nature were we see various timelines getting tangled. To me time travel is a major cornerstone of X-Men comics so to me it was getting back to the roots of what made X-Men comics great with a number of interesting twists.

My only problem with BOTA is that the time travel concept isn't coherent. In one scene original Cyclops dies and as a result present Cyclops ceases to exist. Yet when that healer mutant brings him back to life he reappears. The problem is that this suggests whatever happens to the original X-Men immediately effects the present and future X-Men and yet we haven't seen any other major changes to the timeline. Despite these flukes I still enjoyed the story.

#30 Edited by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@xybernauts: The late 90's were pretty bad, but the early 90's was one of the best period in comics. You know people go about how great Grant Morrison run, when all he did is spice things up abit, considering the late 90's was boring.

The problem with Michael Bendis, is his writing doesn't make sense. What was the point of Battle of Atom story arc. Did the Original 5 got back time, no. Why did future Jean explode. I don't think the original 5 are the original 5, I think Marvel will make them out to be alternative version of the X-Men, you know from alternative reality. Why did they return past Jean Grey, instead of the original Jean Grey from the White room

#31 Posted by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: I agree Matt Fraction-era of Scott, Emma and Wolverine have been the worst period in comics.

#32 Edited by adamTRMM (1231 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

@ryagan: It's not just you. I loved all of Morrison's run. All of it. Every. Single. Damn. Page. I can understand the feelings of malicious disdain towards the Xorn/Magneto thingie, but Morrison's just a something else. He took the X-Men to a different level and defied the societal story-telling stereotypes by stepping out of the sand-box and playing with the more advanced toys. It hasn't been done like that ever since.

He just put his own ideas (just read the dialogues), ideals (even straight edge) and visions into his run, who said fans had to agree with them? This run wasn't an innovation, it was a criticism. With every single damn page he criticized everything they (x-men/-comics) were before him, and if you want I can decompose it detail by detail. Hell, he had even a critique to the X-fans themselves (U-men)! I guess there's a reason why best issues of his run are lies (127\132).

#33 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (5874 posts) - - Show Bio

AvX

#34 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7257 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

@ageofhurricane said:

@ryagan: It's not just you. I loved all of Morrison's run. All of it. Every. Single. Damn. Page. I can understand the feelings of malicious disdain towards the Xorn/Magneto thingie, but Morrison's just a something else. He took the X-Men to a different level and defied the societal story-telling stereotypes by stepping out of the sand-box and playing with the more advanced toys. It hasn't been done like that ever since.

He just put his own ideas (just read the dialogues), ideals (even straight edge) and visions into his run, who said fans had to agree with them? This run wasn't an innovation, it was a criticism. With every single damn page he criticized everything they (x-men/-comics) were before him, and if you want I can decompose it detail by detail. Hell, he had even a critique to the X-fans themselves (U-men)! I guess there's a reason why best issues of his run are lies (127\132).

Yeah, well, lol, i think any writer who's got a brain their skull would naturally integrate their own ideas and ideals and visions into their own story. Like, duh?

But i would like to see you expatiate on his critically acclaimed criticism.

#35 Posted by butterflykyss (3912 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Schism
  • AvX
  • BoTA
  • The O5 returning in general
  • Hope in general
  • The fact Magneto's powers went wonky when he had nothing to do with the Phoenix Force.
  • WaTX in general

The list honestly goes on for the X-Men... These last few years have been HORRIBLE.

QFT!

#36 Posted by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: I'm not a fan of Grant Morrison series either. So I am interested to hear what you have to say about his run.

#37 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

There was nothing wrong with early 1990's . Fatal Attractions, X-Cuitoner Song and Age of Apocalypse. Blue and Gold teams were some of the best period in comics.


Most of those storylines are pretty weak. There wasn't really much of a plot to X-Cutioners Song, it was just all the X-Men characters fighting one another, Fatal Attractions wasn't all that spectacular either. In fact the idea of Wolverine losing his adamantium was presented by Claremont 5 years earlier. They were just afraid to do it and wound up doing it because sales were slightly dropping.

I know Age of Apocalypse is popular, but c'mon, what is it other than a really long "What If" story? It was cool for the mid 90s but in retrospect it wasn't anything bedazzling.

The Blue and Gold team era may have meant commercial success for the X-Men but creatively they went downhill. It was mainly due to Claremont leaving. This fact is even acknowledged by writers like Fabian Nicieza and editor Bob Harras.

#38 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Schism
  • AvX
  • BoTA
  • The O5 returning in general
  • Hope in general
  • The fact Magneto's powers went wonky when he had nothing to do with the Phoenix Force.
  • WaTX in general

The list honestly goes on for the X-Men... These last few years have been HORRIBLE.

What i think what happen was the phoenix judge them and magneto too(when cyclops blasted him with it) .....but look at the bright side they got judge by the phoenix and survivied, win.

#39 Edited by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: Stryfe framing Cable, shooting chuck. Toturing his parents and then confronting Apocalypse. No there was, no plot to that story arc, Really ? Blue and gold team era, are one of the best Periods in X-Men comics of all time. Marvel went in decline in the late 1990's, not early 1990's. The X-Men were in there prime back then. They were the most popular team. You know the real difference between the early 1990's and 2000's to 2013. Is every X-Men character had time in the spotlight. There wasn't 100 mutants running around, half of them being neglected. Every character in the X-men franchise play there part. Anyone who thinks the early 90's was one of the worst periods in X-Men history, has bad taste in comics.

#40 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@xybernauts: The late 90's were pretty bad, but the early 90's was one of the best period in comics. You know people go about how great Grant Morrison run, when all he did is spice things up abit, considering the late 90's was boring.

The problem with Michael Bendis, is his writing doesn't make sense. What was the point of Battle of Atom story arc. Did the Original 5 got back time, no. Why did future Jean explode. I don't think the original 5 are the original 5, I think Marvel will make them out to be alternative version of the X-Men, you know from alternative reality. Why did they return past Jean Grey, instead of the original Jean Grey from the White room

I think the o5 are the real o5 becuase when teen scott almost died adult scott cease to exist. If teen scott wasnt older scott then it shouldnt have affected old scott.

#41 Posted by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture: That just bad writing on Bendis part. If they were the original 5, then there risking Cyclops, Iceman and beast life. I think there just end up being and alternative versions of the X-Men from another alternative reality.

#42 Edited by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@hopesummersforthefuture: That just bad writing on Bendis part. If they were the original 5, then there risking Cyclops, Iceman and beast life. I think there just end up being and alternative versions of the X-Men from another alternative reality.

I guess we have to wait and see. Plus its been a year that the o5 was here and there just now getting there bearing, i mean how long are they going to stay here another year or two?????

Poor teen jean in the upcoming Trail of jean grey now space aliens dont want her to live or something like that. Now the whole universes is out to get her and all she wanted to do was live.

#43 Edited by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture: It's worrying time for Jean grey. Good time 4 Jean Grey fans. What did u think of future Jean (Xorn)

#44 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@hopesummersforthefuture: It's worrying time for Jean grey. Good time 4 Jean Grey fans. What did u think of future Jean (Xorn)

So true

Xorn was ok but did she really have to destroy herself for like the millionth time. It would have been better if she escaped with the other brotherhood, causing more trouble for another time. Shes tragic

#45 Edited by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't red the 2 final chapters of the battle of atom. So what happen, why did she explode. I hope all this trial with Jean Grey in space, won't be her demise. Marvel won't kill her off again. Would you like this Jean grey to grow up or would you want grant Morrison jean to return.

#46 Edited by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@emequious_swerve: Stryfe framing Cable, shooting chuck. Toturing his parents and then confronting Apocalypse. No there was, no plot to that story arc, Really ? Blue and gold team era, are one of the best Periods in X-Men comics of all time. Marvel went in decline in the late 1990's, not early 1990's. The X-Men were in there prime back then. They were the most popular team. You know the real difference between the early 1990's and 2000's to 2013. Is every X-Men character had time in the spotlight. There wasn't 100 mutants running around, half of them being neglected. Every character in the X-men franchise play there part. Anyone who thinks the early 90's was one of the worst periods in X-Men history, has bad taste in comics.

Yes, in that brief sentence you described the whole story arc, and it lasted about a whole year, and you left out the part where the X-Men superfluously interrogated all their villains by just fighting them.

The X-Mens popularity escalated because of the comic boom of the 90s, yes, but it was also due to the cartoons popularity, but I think even the layman can see what a decline the quality took from Claremonts stuff. Again, Bob Harras who was the editor of the X-Men comics in the early 90s even admits to having more action and less story and character development, and he thinks it was for the worse.

C'mon dude, just because someone doesn't like something you like doesn't mean they have "bad taste" thats just an immature thing to say. Its like me saying "Hey, you like early 90s X-men so you must be an easily entertained, simpleton." Its a pretty popular opinion by the X-Men fans that the book takes a dive after Claremonts departure. You can listen to the Uncanny X-Cast, or read the X-men primer on modernzox, or even read interviews by Bob Harras, who was the editor at the time, and you will see, its pretty well accepted these days that the writing of the early 90s X-Men wasn't that great.

#47 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@time: I would like adult jean back but thats going to be really hard to do but this is the comics after all anything is possible

as for the last to chapter of BOTA you can see alot of pages here: http://xmen-supreme.blogspot.ca/2013/10/scanned-thoughts-x-men-battle-of-atom-2.html

but i bought the whole series myself. it should have been shorter, it drag on and on. Also alot of loose ends

theres more pages on the site i mentioned above

#48 Edited by time (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture: I check it out. Did you hear the news Kitty and the original 5 will staying with Cyclops team. Not sure how long though.

#49 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@hopesummersforthefuture: I check it out. Did you hear the news Kitty and the original 5 will staying with Cyclops team. Not sure how long though.

Yeah i knew that was going to happen, even from the start of BOTA. I just had a feeling. So i guess when jean might get kidnap from the space aliens (or Death commandos), the Uncanny x-men will be there to help but its not going to affect uncanny x-men books. Its all going to happen in the anxm/GOTG crossover. Just guessing. I wonder if emma and jean might have some interesting interactions

#50 Edited by tupiaz (2166 posts) - - Show Bio

There was accuatly some good periods in the 90's. Age of Apocalypse (or the parts I have been reading anyway was good). Wolverine going all nature and losing his adamantium.