What was your favorite X-Men spin off?

Basically any X title that is not directly named X-Men.

Uncanny X-Force by Rick Remender.

New Mutants by Claremont

@sprior93: nailed it New Mutants by a long shot

Second for me and its just a personal favorite is generation x by lobdell

Alpha Flight but I did like the original XFactor

@boschepg: original x factor was OK but the Jean recon is annoying as well as Scott looking like a douche leaving his wwife and kid behind

Uncanny X-force Vol 1. I'm not basic, I promise.

New Mutants by Claremont

New Xmen by Kyle and Yost

Xforce by Kyle and Yost

Uncanny Xforce by Rick Remender

Xfactor by Peter David

I agree with the sentiment about original Xfactor with Jean retcon and all. I actually saw a post that would fix all of that Cyclops douchebaggery and the ridiculous Maddie Pryor clone thing. I added my own little ideas to it and talking about retcon, I'd love for this whole thing to be fixed

*Rebel Mode*

Original X-Factor....

Rarely is anything that actually goes on in that book actually discussed when it's critiqued. Other then Jean's resurrection and Cyclops and Maddie's awkward split...there's the introduction of Apocalypse, Archangel, the Four horsemen Boom-Boom and Rictor. Beast having to deal with losing his intelligence every time he pushes his powers, Cameron Hodge manipulating the actions and even deaths of the heroes, the crew rescuing and training new mutants, plus clashes with Mystique's Government sanctioned team and the Marauders all within the first 40 issues. But sure, lets remember it for resurrecting Jean and not being written by Claremont....because clearly those things aren't irrational

Honestly I could just as easily say New Mutants (Vol. 1 or 3), Peter David's V3 X-Factor or Excalibur...but I feel like no one else is going to fight this battle for X-Factor

Kyle and Yost's New X-Men.

@koays: Is the X-Factor your talking about the one with the Inferno storyline?

X-Factor Investigations. It was so refreshing and different and rescued so many forgotten characters.

Wolverine vol. 1

Old man Logan

Uncanny X-force

New Mutants by Claremont.

@lxlgiftedlxl: yes

@immolation- Yes, considering her run is longer then any modern X-Run (save David's X-Factor) that we would judge on it's own, and that Cyclops leaving Maddie and Maddie being a clone happen either before she started writing or as part of a collaboration with Claremont....yes it does make up for it. I mean Maddie being a clone has like zero effect on the story outside of Inferno, and Cyclops and Jean both spend 2-3 arcs of the story dealing with/angsting over the fallout of the sloppy decisions in the first few set up issues. There's an actual story that could be judged is what i'm saying.

It's not that Simonson's X-Factor is some golden run to be held above all others, but it's rarely critiqued for it's own quality and more used as a support to lobby against Cyclops and retcons without taking a look at how either one is handled in the book.

Uncanny X-Force.

No, just no. Usually, I am a pretty fair person that respects peoples opinion, but this is just wrong.

X-Factor really crippled a lot of continuity among the X-Men that had been taking place, its mere existence almost drove Claremont from the franchise prematurely. Not only did Jeans retcon and resurrection piss on the antecedent Phoenix stories, but it also ignores Beasts progress he made while being an Avenger, and not being feared and hated anymore by being on the team, he just gets hot shotted back onto the original X-Men team in usual X-Men fashion, where they just return to status quo. Then there is of course, Cyclops, who had an interesting moral dilemma of a man having to choose between family, and what he felt was duty, but then goes back to boring stalwart leader of the X-Men, who worries about Jean Grey all the time. I always personally thought it was neat that Iceman was a character that graduated from Xaviers institute and reintegrated into society, since that is always and advertised hallmark of the school, and not every mutant need to be a super hero.....but, that gets thrown out as well. Angel is the only character that beinfited from X-Factor. Not to mention that 'in universe' the idea that the original X-Men wouldn't just rejoin the X-Men and form another team and call themselves something different is ridiculous.

Also, your description for liking the series is just listing names of notable characters and events that happen....the execution of it isn't really that great. The X-Men characters are all bland, Boom Boom, Rictor, Rusty, Skids, Artie and Leech are one dimensional for the most part, Cameron Hodge being the man behind the teams woes is obnoxiously obvious since the beginning, there are also lots of stories that have terrible villains and just come off as blatant filler. Apocalypse is not even that great in his first several appearances, he essentially is as deep and silly as Megatron from Transformers. The best part of X-Factor was Walt Simonsons art. :(

original x-factor

Pfft, please...This idea that throwing off or annoying Claremont (as easy as that seems to be) is a cardinal sin is exactly what I mean by not critiquing the series for it's self.

I actually didn't give my reasons for liking the series and was more offering things to examine or talk about within the series other then things people don't like in the first 5 issues. Say that it's dull, or that it doesn't have deep running plots, (hell Apocalypse does seem like Megatron until the ship fight)...ANYTHING other then the Jean retcon(which is only so infamous because of how publicized that story has become and how complicated other writers made it by not acknowledging it) and the Cyclops/Maddie events (which is part of the very poor set up to the book). I mean there are like 70 plus issues featuring that team, any of them can be critiqued but it seems like the premise of a decades old book is often the only thing mentioned when it's brought up. The fact that it changed writers five issues in and nobody critiques anything done by the primary writer is what i see as unfair and makes the critiques unfounded.

To me most critiques you launch just don't add up with my preferences as a fan, Beast & Angel developing into hero's beyond their status as mutants, Cyclops retiring from life as a hero, Iceman moving on from the team and...doing whatever he was doing (really can't remember). All of that is stuff that builds upon Claremonts writing of HIS X-Men title. His realism, and his organic approach to story telling where characters walk off into the sunset and maybe sometimes get checked on when the story calls for it. Which is perfectly find and an enjoyable part of when I'm reading his run and following his tales. BUT when your reading from a fan perspective, I don't want Cyclops to just disappear into the backround because a writer (even Claremont) decided his story was over, or Beast, Iceman and Angel to join another book because someone decided the X-Men part of their character is just backstory. For as praised as Claremont is for taking X-Men from a superhero comic book into a series of epic tales, it's X-Factor taking characters he wasn't using and continuing there stories under a similar brand that turn the X-Men into a franchise. If Claremont was the sole creative voice for the X-Men from then until now, i'd agree that whatever tangent titles Marvel produced should've followed and been a slave to his story choices and what he allowed...hell given his success at the time perhaps that should've been the case...but I feel the same way about Claremont's level of character control as i do about Morrison's arguments for his Magneto reveal, it's not just up to pleasing the creators whims about storytelling, it's also about the fans who are attached to and would like to see more from these characters.

Any mutant related subject that is well written, simple. Favorite conceptually, X-force.

X-Force, X-Force, X-Force !

The original X-Force will always be the best X-Force. The early 90's X-Force.

Kyle & Yost X-Force was pretty good too.

@koays: I get what you are saying...but, and maybe its just a reader flaw or a flaw in how I think, the premise is very important at least to me. I should be able to answer basically why this team exist. Also character origins and back story is also important. I agree that many people don't give things a fair chance. Hell for me without even getting into the butchery...eh...I meant writing that Bendis did, the premise and circumstances by which the O5 came to be in the current timeline was a huge flaw and turn off at least for me. I almost cringe when fans or defenders of it say "well it was fun" or "at least he tried to do something different" without seeming to care about glaring holes in the stories. For the original Xfactor, and I may not be remembering correctly, they came together because of the return of Jean Grey which in and of itself was a problem with how it was done. That's not to say that the eventual team concept was bad, them posing as mutant hunters while really secretly training mutants to control their powers and not be a menace. I mean that sort of separates them from the other team which was cool but its hard to ignore the premise of them getting together which is a big part if the story. Now is that the writers fault with an editorial mandate and all? That's the question because in some instances the writer is only working with what he is given. Should we be questioning the Dark Phoenix stuff? I think we should.

@hawk2916: You see my problem with that thinking is that it basically says there's something wrong with the premise its self. If you say "Hey All New X-Men is about the Original 5 X-Men being brought to the future and trying to change it for the better." I can say "well I don't like time travel" or "I don't want multiple versions of the same character" as fair personal critiques i don't like about the premise. But if you say "X-Factor v1 is about the original X-Men reuniting as team following the mysterious return of Jean Grey" the issue to be taken from that has nothing to do with the stories told in the book. It would be like saying you don't like sentinels so your not going to read Morrison....it's like "ok yea, but there not important past the start of the story." Jean is the catalyst that brings this team together (from what i've read and heard if it wasn't her it would've been polaris or someone else), and as a part of the premise it should decide whether you read it or not, but not the quality of work. I mean hell the guy who started the series left 5 issues in...it's a different book by the time it's done gathering the characters.

I mean I get that retcons are generally bad or unwanted; and that Jean Grey's series of Retcons and confusion starts here...but everything explained in the story is used as an addition to the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jean as a character then spends the rest of the series struggling and angsting over the fact that she hasn't just been gone, but was replaced by someone who did horrible things with her power and with her face. All the weight of the things Dark Phoenix did is still with the character and through reading the run you start see it. It's not like Xorneto, where "it wasn't him" was the sole explanation, the problem was dealt with and smooved over within the story...and the major problems with Jean Grey and Phoenix only start coming up with all the writers who decided to ignore or worse "fix" the Jean Grey retcon. 40 issues of Jean dealing with being replaced and feared by her loved ones twice over, before merging with Maddie and the Phoenix is thrown out the window when Nicieza and Lobdell write scenes that treat her like the same character from Dark Phoenix and further complicate the matter to the point that people(fans and writers) would rather the character be dead then have to explain her.

everything you said is why I nominated X-Factor. I also thought the teams with Havok (being a new leader after Earth -X) and Forge showing more stuff later on. The later stuff wasn't great, but it also went further into less used characters in newer roles

Yea, I honestly liked the majority of X-Factor stuff save a little from after Simonsons departure...but even then I've warmed up alot to the second team and Peter David's run with them.

I think most people criticize the whole thing. I just did. The book for the most part is boring, really doesn't have a whole lot to do with the X-Men lore that was going on at that time as Claremont took the X-Men and "killed" them off to distance them from the series. The writing is pretty amateur as Louise Simonson., who actually was an amateur at the time, wasn't that good of a storyteller, the villains are dull, unless you consider the return of the famous 60s X-Men nemesis, 'The Locust' and characters like Glowworm, gripping, a lot of the stories, particularly the crossover stories feel like filler and Simonsons fill in artist, Bognadove, was ugh. Look, I am obviously kidding about you being wrong, people are going to like what they like, but treating X-Factor like an oft forgotten, underrated gem is something I disagree with. It was a series born out of exploitation, and was never anything highly rated and never really did anything substantial for any character other than Angel. People even often complain that the boring, whiny Cyclops and fainting Jean Grey that people familiarize with from the cartoons and the 90s are result of their depiction in X-Factor.

Continuity be damned?? You are only a fan of Cyclops in this series because you became a fan of his through later books and you are looking at the X-Factor series in hindsight. It's obviously a difficult thing to have discourse about as US super hero comics are unique as when a writer a comes to an ongoing series, it essentially, in some ways, seems like an alternate version compared to the previous writer.....that's is why X-Factor is held under scrutiny a lot of the time, because it starts almost smack in the middle of Claremonts X-Men run and undermines things he was trying to do and character he was trying to build, it's not like it was this series that just had to exist. It's superfluous. You could make the argument that New Mutants and Excalibur were that too, but I would disagree as those books had completely different premises and X-Factor was basically just the original X-Men being the X-Men while not being the X-Men.

Just throwing in there that I came to appreciate X-Factor's run as time went on to the extent that it became one of my favorite series. Ironically, I grew out of my Phoenix stage and this series helped cement Jean as my favorite character. I think it's easier to appreciate the Dark Phoenix Saga and move on when you think of all the general weirdness that goes on in comics - I actually didn't mind the MacGuffin this provided, because it wasn't a retcon: Jean herself didn't die, a creature based on her psyche and experiences did which memorializes who Jean is, and it was handled in pretty neatly by having the FF discover her in the cocoon. If anything, it handled Jean more respectfully than the Saga did TBQH. I think the Phoenix Endsong/Warsong etc etc stories are what weakened the original Saga more than bringing Jean back .

And I'll always like that awesome image of the first battle with the Horsemen, where Scott, Jean, and Bobby had to fight alone with Warren missing, and Hank's ineptitude growing as he exerted himself.

Plus X-Factor's uniforms were pretty cool IMHO, and gave me one of my favorite Marvel card images- when I was a kid, I thought she looked especially tough:

Oh well!

@koays: I get that. But I just think premise is inportant its what makes you want to read the story. While the while run may bot have been about that, the fact that as you yourself said Jean dealt with all these feelings and perceptions based on the Phoenix stuff previously seems as if that would be at least and underlying theme or factor in the stories.Original Xfactor did wonders for the xmen mythos and a lot of us don't realize the change you spoke of in writers and all. Its just that to me if the team would have come together anyway like what you mentioned with Polaris or like I had heard Dazzler and even Sara Grey then that's one less controversial element that was not needed. That's not to say Jean was handled pretty good and overall the flaw was with DPS and how they chose to retcon Jean plus the Maddie clone stuff.....I don't know there was just a better way to do it. And by the way those problems you mentioned with All New is exactly some of the flaws with it in addition to me other things that people seem perfectly OK with ignoring just for a story.

Lol that moment when you go into rebel mode, and start a fight that's gonna have sitting down for an hour writing replies...

@cattlebattle- Lol i can say with complete 100% certainty that the only time I have ever seen someone bring up and actually discuss the internal plot, artwork and developments of OG X-Factor beyond the events that lead to the characters meeting Jean in that first issue...is you, the last time we debated over X-Factor's quality. But yea, your right...I read X-Factor at least a decade and a half plus after it came out, which is probably why I've never cared about the retcon or seen it as some mark on the franchise that impacted the main title negatively. By the time I read it Jean was dying again, Beast, Iceman,and Angel had been part of the larger team for years with little break...and Cyclops was an X-Man 100%. All of this was predetermined and X-Factor was just background and history for the stories I was already reading. Which is why I judge it from the fan perspective rather then with history in mind, since Beast joining the Avenger's might've been the culmination of his growth when the book was released...but as far as reading it years later, it was just a brief stint before he reunited with his team.


Maybe I'd see it differently if I had read Claremont up until the issue that came out alongside X-Factor #1 and then switched over, then I might've experienced the similar decline to what I actually did feel when following Claremont up into the 90's X-Men and seeing the inconsistency and fluctuations there as the creative teams struggled, or to be even more obvious the difference between Simonson and Claremont's runs on New Mutants. But to me X-Factor has the best Jean Grey, is the earliest X-title with a good Angel story, has arguably the best writing of Jean and Scott's dynamic together, and had all of it's plot lines nicely culminate in or resolve before Inferno which is IMO one of the best X-Men Events. I judge that against it's own weakness rather then by some issue it had with continuity. It's a 7/10 book with issues on the entertainment side, that came out alongside Claremont's victory lap but it's constantly picked on like it's got a Jean Grey shaped tumor growing on it's forehead, when it doesn't really deserve it considering the service it did for it's characters.

Idk about Claremont....sometimes I find it very difficult to side with him (or other acclaimed creators in similar spots in different mediums) when told that something negatively impacted their work and that it would've been so much greater without an obstacle or interference. As fan who came in years after it all and grew to love the work as it is it's like saying he missed the train to a job interview, met his future wife in the terminal and had a kid who became president...but we all still go back and feel bothered that he missed that train. idk.

@phoenixofthetides- I completely agree. I always cared about the character moments in X-Factor, and clearly tense situations was Simonson's strongest area on that run...But it's Jean that I always look at it when I judge that run, because she's as much or more of a character then the rest of the group, which is something that she doesn't achieve again until Morrison. It definitely boost my opinion of the series.

@hawk2916- The thing about All New is that the premise is by far not the worst thing about that book...not attracting readers with it's premise is the least of it's problems. But the same way it really was much worst then it's premise it could've been so much better. And that's my problem with judging a book on it's premise...you can only judge it so many times from it's premise. Twice really- 1)Do I want to read it? 2)Why or why not?....anything else about the book can no longer be spoken of, unless you actually sit down and read the story it's telling. There are 40 issues of All New, 70 plus of the OG X-Factor..there's alot more to them then what's on the solicit is all i'm saying. I mean most people describe Astonishing as a continuation of Morrison...that's not in any way a fair critique.

Maybe if the Jean Grey retcon was sloppier I'd feel the same way...but it was handled like an addition rather then a subtraction. "After everything that happened in the Phoenix Saga Jean Grey wakes up to realize a couple of years have gone by since she crashed a spaceship into the bay, and that while she was sleeping someone else lived and died pretending to be her. She doesn't know how or why, but as far as everyone else is concerned she was dead and gone and her friends and family have moved on." If anything that makes the original story deeper, the real damage comes from it being publicized exactly how that decision was made, and every writer afterwards tacking things on to it with no regard. It turns a interesting addition into the first step in a train wreck, and giving people a publicized target to point the finger at whenever someone wants to pile another "Phoenix story" on top of it.

I just can't look at X-Factor and defame it when I find more problems with editorial deciding a character needed to die, then I do with people using that death to add more to the character. Otherwise i'd have to take issue with Nightcrawler who had a crappy resurrection story but has the potential to have a 1,000 great stories now that he's back. Tis not fair.

Original X Force.

@koays: Like I said bedore , in most respects I agree with you. I just think origins and how things are handled are important as well as the endgame. Maybe that's some of my critics and somewhat of an editing background in the sports reporting industry and from novels, where how we get to a certain point,the journey if you will, holds almost as much value as the final destination. The Nightcrawler thing was horrible and while its fun to ignore that and be happy we have him back....that's just not always easy to do. Not that every story has to be epic but dammit some effort should go into it. Most times it feels like the movie that really has no plot and the acting and dialogue is terrible but the explosions and high speed chases and graphics are great. It ends up being more gimmicky as opposed to well rounded. Again the problems with All New in my opinion are quite a few. Sure maybe the premise is responsible for 2 or as I feel more like 5 or 6, but that only highlights the problems going in. Its already way behind the starting line so then there is absolutely no margin for even the slightest error or oversight. And that's before we even get to flawed writing, pacing and characterization. I literally could sit and poke holes in the story from start to finish in just a few minutes, that most fans of the run would just have to leave unanswered. Its just crazy to me how many people accept it and gloss over problems simply because "well it has Jean in it". The funny thing is that same story and even premise could be tweeked just slightly and told with a little more effort and it could have alleviated some of the issues and made for a richer and deeper story as opposed to a run chock full of overused plots and misinterpretations of characters and gimmicks to try and drum up interest. I've seen it done on message boards from nonprofessional writers who seem to actually care about the story. They are able to get to the same goal which the O5 here in the present but able to have the story actually make some sense. I kind if feel similar about original Xfactor though not as strongly. Some don't care about the Jean retcon which is fine. I think it was OK but really could have been better. But again I can't really piss all over the retcon when its just trying to correct another meaningless character death, which also is overdone and reeks of petty bs infighting between the creators.

I can't choose just one.. Academy X/New X-Men, All New X-Factor, NYX, K&Y's X-Force, Spurrier's X-Men Legacy, Alpha Flight.

@hawk2916: I can concede those points. I mean I just had to stop myself from explaining why I think i justifiably hated X-Men Forever for years before I ever picked it up in the aother thread... so it's valid to say if theres a big enough problem then the work can analyzed and deconstructed before it's even released. My problem with it being done with X-Factor is that a LARGE part of it's sustained criticism over the years comes from the poor choices of writers afterwards. I mean if the Phoenix shows up in 2morrow's issue, they'd have a flashmob of posters saying "I thought the Phoenix ______ed in that other issue" "I want Old Jean back/Old Jean is boring" and of course "Jean Grey should've stayed dead"....and the thing is Simonson and her X-Factor run, has nothing to do with it except that it's where Jean came back in and as a result it gets blamed for everything that came after it based on a small part of the premise. It sort of bugs me since Austen established Azrael as Kurt's father in a VERY bad story, but nobody looks at the trashy resurrection of Kurt and instantly thinks "Austen sucks for making this possible".

I forgot about EXILES!! I have to add that one to the near top of my list.

The original X-Factor is doo doo butter.

If you enjoy it from a fan perspective, that's fine, I think most people will tell you that it isn't that strong of a series. But the fact it kind of pisses on continuity with nearly every character and just ignores exposition as to why the team exists and its actual purpose is not really opinion based.....that is what actually happened. It was one of the first major books to undermine major character building and continuity as up until that point, for the most part, characters that were dead had stayed dead. I completely understand what your saying when you are explaining that you are a fan of characters like Cyclops and Jean Grey, as I am too in certain aspects, and you enjoy the book because it's nice to see the characters in a book with a small roster and having their own adventures, but I am saying, looking at X-Factor objectively, judging by its writing, characterizations and how it did a lot to mess up the X-Men continuity that was happening at the time alone, it sort of sucks.

Look, I don't think X-Factor is most terrible thing to have ever existed, it's just overall bleh. I actually enjoy somethings that resulted from it, like I actually do like the Inferno story, and the fact Madelyne was a clone of Sinister gave the Mr Sinister character and his connection with Cyclops a lot more girth, and of course, Archangel was great, and I thought Caliban leaving X-Factor to join Apocalypse under the deal he will be augmented to be able to attain revenge on the Marauders for killing the Morlocks....there is good stuff....it's just very scarce. Walt Simonsons art is always great and I am even in the very small minority of people that liked Nanny and Orphan Maker, I just thought they were creepy as shit. Some psychic, female dwarf who gets shoved into a robot suit by a bunch of bigots and then decides to kill peoples parents and kidnap kids to do her bidding....that's great!

I feel like X-Factor would have been better if it would have acknowledged Beast as a super hero, building off his time with Avengers, and maybe should have started to dabble in politics. Cyclops and Maddy should have just have had natural marital problems, maybe with the basis for them being Scotts addiction to super heroing. Jean should have stayed dead and her position should have been filled by either Sarah Grey, who Claremont and Simonson originally tried to fight for, or at least could have been any number of other female mutants like Firestar, Darkstar or Diamond Lil. The premise of the book should have been the characters trying to represent mutants as super heroes on par with the Fantastic Four or Avengers, as opposed to outlaws and criminals, with Cameron Hodge and Warren bankrolling their efforts and marketing toys and advertisements and things like that.....just saying, their could have been more thought put into it than just "hey, lets bring back the original X-Men for nostalgia, derp!"

Well of course, you could say that for virtually every writer who has had a memorable run with any characters. I really like Elektra, but Miller probably would have wanted her to stay dead. I can read his work and appreciate it, and I can read Elektra stories post Miller and enjoy it.