#1 Posted by time (4576 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sure most of us has got with annoyed with the Avengers and shield decided what you happen to mutants. We got them hunting down Cyclops team and Cable team. So should the mutant race have there own government or there own mutant council that deals with those issues. We know the government always loves to get involved, but wouldn't make more sense for the mutants to deal with there own kind, instead of humans getting involved. Maybe the Mutant government or council could work with shield.

What do you guys think ?

#2 Posted by McKlayn (1008 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I'm sure most of us has got with annoyed with the Avengers and shield decided what you happen to mutants. We got them hunting down Cyclops team and Cable team. So should the mutant race have there own government or there own mutant council that deals with those issues. We know the government always loves to get involved, but wouldn't make more sense for the mutants to deal with there own kind, instead of humans getting involved. Maybe the Mutant government or council could work with shield.

What do you guys think ?

no, i mean thats basically what utopia was and i always felt that was a step back form Xavier's dream. The Mutants are fighting for Equal rights, and the United states has proved in the past that "separate by equal": isnt really equal. So i don't think this would work long term, no i would not be against something like utopia ran by Mutants that accepted humans in their city and treated them as equals to try to show the US how it was done.

What they need is more Mutants in ranks of power, things to get them more integrated and less separated thats if they really want equal rights blah blah, honestly that would kill the comic so im fine the way it is lol

#3 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I'm sure most of us has got with annoyed with the Avengers and shield decided what you happen to mutants. We got them hunting down Cyclops team and Cable team. So should the mutant race have there own government or there own mutant council that deals with those issues. We know the government always loves to get involved, but wouldn't make more sense for the mutants to deal with there own kind, instead of humans getting involved. Maybe the Mutant government or council could work with shield.

What do you guys think ?

I think at this point the mutants should have their own "Iluminati" organization with people doing good for mutants without SHIELD and avengers interference.

The team Could be: Magneto (from Cyclops team) - Storm ( from Jean Grey School) - Cable (From X-force) - Rogue( from the avengers) - Namor - Beast (if he stop being a crazy dude)

Obviously their team mates couldn't know about this organization at all.

#4 Posted by time (4576 posts) - - Show Bio

@mcklayn said:

@time said:

I'm sure most of us has got with annoyed with the Avengers and shield decided what you happen to mutants. We got them hunting down Cyclops team and Cable team. So should the mutant race have there own government or there own mutant council that deals with those issues. We know the government always loves to get involved, but wouldn't make more sense for the mutants to deal with there own kind, instead of humans getting involved. Maybe the Mutant government or council could work with shield.

What do you guys think ?

no, i mean thats basically what utopia was and i always felt that was a step back form Xavier's dream. The Mutants are fighting for Equal rights, and the United states has proved in the past that "separate by equal": isnt really equal. So i don't think this would work long term, no i would not be against something like utopia ran by Mutants that accepted humans in their city and treated them as equals to try to show the US how it was done.

What they need is more Mutants in ranks of power, things to get them more integrated and less separated thats if they really want equal rights blah blah, honestly that would kill the comic so im fine the way it is lol

I didn't see Utopia as a that, I just saw it as island for mutants, that's all. Captain America and Avengers still came to Utopia, demanded law over Cyclops and the X-Men. I just don't think the Avengers should have more rights over Mutants than the X-Men. I think if there was certain mutants in ranks of power and work with the government, they may have more rights and the Avengers wouldn't but in all the time.

#5 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@mcklayn said:

@time said:

I'm sure most of us has got with annoyed with the Avengers and shield decided what you happen to mutants. We got them hunting down Cyclops team and Cable team. So should the mutant race have there own government or there own mutant council that deals with those issues. We know the government always loves to get involved, but wouldn't make more sense for the mutants to deal with there own kind, instead of humans getting involved. Maybe the Mutant government or council could work with shield.

What do you guys think ?

no, i mean thats basically what utopia was and i always felt that was a step back form Xavier's dream. The Mutants are fighting for Equal rights, and the United states has proved in the past that "separate by equal": isnt really equal. So i don't think this would work long term, no i would not be against something like utopia ran by Mutants that accepted humans in their city and treated them as equals to try to show the US how it was done.

Utopia was kind of a neat idea; but I agree that, in terms of what the X-men are about, it seems like a step in the wrong direction.

How can the X-men fight for fair and equal treatment for mutants, and then turn around and say, oh but the laws that that apply to everyone else don't apply to us because we're special? It just seems like a contradiction of their whole mandate.

I mean, I can appreciate that some X-men feel like they need to be outlaws to help mutants who are being persecuted by government agencies, that much makes sense to me. Cyclops' X-men seem to understand that part of what the X-men need to do does involve working outside the system, so they've taken on that outsider, vigilante role. But the Avengers have been granted authority by the government, and there's plenty of mutants who have worked within that system for the greater good. I think that those characters, like Wolverine, Beast, and so on, have found a way to work within the system that does far more good than trying to take the Avengers authority to deal with any kind of threat (mutant related or not) away from them.

I think the way the X-men operate now seems like a good balance. Storm has her team of legitimately recognized X-men who do have authority to deal with mutant issues primarily, Cyclops has his team of outlaw X-men to do the things that Storm's team can't do, and Wolverine, Havok, Beast, etc give them a presence within the Avengers to deal with threats beyond the scope of what being X-men puts them in the jurisdiction of. This gives each group of X-men a different mandate and different abilities, and, ultimately, makes each team unique, while still working towards a common goal.

#6 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

Bring back Storm's XSE. That was a step in the right direction in regards to human-mutant relations, but then M-Day happened and Claremont left.

#7 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (27351 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I'm sure most of us has got with annoyed with the Avengers and shield decided what you happen to mutants. We got them hunting down Cyclops team and Cable team. So should the mutant race have there own government or there own mutant council that deals with those issues. We know the government always loves to get involved, but wouldn't make more sense for the mutants to deal with there own kind, instead of humans getting involved. Maybe the Mutant government or council could work with shield.

What do you guys think ?

I think at this point the mutants should have their own "Iluminati" organization with people doing good for mutants without SHIELD and avengers interference.

The team Could be: Magneto (from Cyclops team) - Storm ( from Jean Grey School) - Cable (From X-force) - Rogue( from the avengers) - Namor - Beast (if he stop being a crazy dude)

Obviously their team mates couldn't know about this organization at all.

and it should be called A.T.O.M Agents of Mutantkind

#8 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

Bring back Storm's XSE. That was a step in the right direction in regards to human-mutant relations, but then M-Day happened and Claremont left.

I like the idea of Storm's XSE, but don't they actually have more authority with Storm/Rogue/Wolverine/Beast having Avengers status anyway? and without being so divisive?

#9 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

Bring back Storm's XSE. That was a step in the right direction in regards to human-mutant relations, but then M-Day happened and Claremont left.

I like the idea of Storm's XSE, but don't they actually have more authority with Storm/Rogue/Wolverine/Beast having Avengers status anyway? and without being so divisive?

I personally think having Avengers-status only seeks to complicate things. Captain America's unity division is no different than Storm's XSE--she was playing with the whole "get out and interact with them" idea since before he realized it was a pressing problem, but even with their so-called authority and flashy mandate, what, exactly, have they done in regards to human-mutant relations that's been beneficial ? (Barring Havok's infamous "speech").

#10 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally think having Avengers-status only seeks to complicate things. Captain America's unity division is no different than Storm's XSE--she was playing with the whole "get out and interact with them" idea since before he realized it was a pressing problem, but even with their so-called authority and flashy mandate, what, exactly, have they done in regards to human-mutant relations that's been beneficial ? (Barring Havok's infamous "speech").

haha! well, I wasn't talking so much about Uncanny Avengers (though, it is my fave Avengers book right now) as I was talking about Storm's X-men.

I meant that, specifically, Storm and Rogue both have Avengers level clearance/authority that's probably more recognized than their XSE clearance anyway, while still having members like Psylocke and Jubilee who don't have to work within the guidelines of the Avengers charter, so they've sort of got the best of both worlds already.

#11 Edited by SC (11952 posts) - - Show Bio

Mutants are people with both unique and similar problems to other groups and minorities. You don't need to be a mutant to support mutant favorable policies and favorable in the sense of treating ethically and equally not superior. So really what Marvel should do is give Xavier and Magneto more story telling potential by having them enter international politics and traveling around the world with both human and mutant staff to advocate policy and politics that are favorable but not exclusively about mutant rights. Not all problems have to be or should be about being a mutant, so you know, there is a lot of real life inspired topics Magneto and Xavier would be great and discussing and talking about. Very intelligent and charismatic individuals, its a bit funny to see them so hung up on physical fights so often because its a typical staple of superhero comics.

Moderator
#12 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Yes, they do when you look at it from that perspective, but that's not the mandate of their, labelled by Wood, "make-shift" team. Or the purpose. It could deviate in that direction, but as of now, looks like Jubilee's the priority. Guess we'll see the exact direction after BOTA.

#13 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

Mutants are people with both unique and similar problems to other groups and minorities. You don't need to be a mutant to support mutant favorable policies and favorable in the sense of treating ethically and equally not superior. So really what Marvel should do is give Xavier and Magneto more story telling potential by having them enter international politics and traveling around the world with both human and mutant staff to advocate policy and politics that are favorable but not exclusively about mutant rights. Not all problems have to be or should be about being a mutant

well said.

@oldnightcrawler: Yes, they do when you look at it from that perspective, but that's not the mandate of their, labelled by Wood, "make-shift" team. Or the purpose. It could deviate in that direction, but as of now, looks like Jubilee's the priority. Guess we'll see the exact direction after BOTA.

Yeah, I was just pointing out that, traditionally, the X-men have been somewhere between recognized superheroes and mutant vigilantes; I personally like Cyclops' outlaw X-men and I like that there are X-men and other mutants on the Avengers, but I think the combined roster of Storm's X-men finds the most organic balance between the two roles.

#14 Posted by waezi2 (4967 posts) - - Show Bio

No, that would only alienate mutants more than they are. If the existences of mutants is going to be as painless as possible, they have to be a part of humanity instead of a sub-society.

And have you ever heard about a special Afro American Government?

#15 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I think before Whedon's run, the X-Men were more on the terrorist/mutant vigilantes section than anything else. They've only just managed to get past society's overwhelming quota of scrutineers, and are still looking to change it.

@waezi2 said:

No, that would only alienate mutants more than they are. If the existences of mutants is going to be as painless as possible, they have to be a part of humanity instead of a sub-society.

And have you ever heard about a special Afro American Government?

Lmfao.

#16 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I think before Whedon's run, the X-Men were more on the terrorist/mutant vigilantes section than anything else. They've only just managed to get past society's overwhelming quota of scrutineers, and are still looking to change it.

Sometimes they were, but other times (MSH Secret Wars, the Infinity Gauntlet, Onslaught, House of M, Secret Invasion, etc) it was just like the X-men were part of the Avengers too, when it came right down to it.

@waezi2 said:

No, that would only alienate mutants more than they are. If the existences of mutants is going to be as painless as possible, they have to be a part of humanity instead of a sub-society.

And have you ever heard about a special Afro American Government?

ha! great point.

#17 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Not it wasn't. But lolz.

And the X-Men (as a collective) should never, ever, be "part of the Avengers". That just sounds nasty.

#18 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Not it wasn't. But lolz.

And the X-Men (as a collective) should never, ever, be "part of the Avengers". That just sounds nasty.

Why not?

not that they aren't their own thing, too, obviously, but in the way that, say, the Fantastic 4 is.

#19 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Because the X-Men are the X-Men and the Avengers are the Avengers. They both have respective ideologies and deputations that just shouldn't coincide. Mainly because it wouldn't look "good" for either side. They'd loose their uniqueness.

#20 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Because the X-Men are the X-Men and the Avengers are the Avengers. They both have respective ideologies and deputations that just shouldn't coincide. Mainly because it wouldn't look "good" for either side. They'd loose their uniqueness.

But the Avengers have been lots of different things, depending on the story; Luke Cage's New Avengers was something different from Iron-man's Mighty Avengers, which was different from Hank Pym's Mighty Avengers, which was different from Havok's Uncanny Avengers, etc..

My point is just that there's president for all of the superheroes involved in a particular story (like Secret Wars, the Infinity Gauntlet, Onslaught, House of M, Secret Invasion, etc) to be seen as essentially being on the same team, which, to me, makes them all Avengers.

I guess I think of the Avengers as a broader thing than just who's on the team; to me it's just Earth's mightiest heroes, which includes heroes who are members of other teams. If a member of the Fantastic 4, the X-men, the Defenders, or whoever, is recognized as one of Earth's mightiest heroes, why shouldn't they count as Avengers?

#21 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

@oldnightcrawler: Because the X-Men are the X-Men and the Avengers are the Avengers. They both have respective ideologies and deputations that just shouldn't coincide. Mainly because it wouldn't look "good" for either side. They'd loose their uniqueness.

But the Avengers have been lots of different things, depending on the story; Luke Cage's New Avengers was something different from Iron-man's Mighty Avengers, which was different from Hank Pym's Mighty Avengers, which was different from Havok's Uncanny Avengers, etc..

My point is just that there's president for all of the superheroes involved in a particular story (like Secret Wars, the Infinity Gauntlet, Onslaught, House of M, Secret Invasion, etc) to be seen as essentially being on the same team, which, to me, makes them all Avengers.

I guess I think of the Avengers as a broader thing than just who's on the team; to me it's just Earth's mightiest heroes, which includes heroes who are members of other teams. If a member of the Fantastic 4, the X-men, the Defenders, or whoever, is recognized as one of Earth's mightiest heroes, why shouldn't they count as Avengers?

No. It just sounds like a lot of forced, contrived, lackluster wishes amalgamated into one. It doesn't mean that they're on the same team, but actually, that they were working towards a common goal at that point in time--and i don't think that constitutes automatic membership because they'll still have their differences later on in life, and it'll all be for naught.

If all the big teams were Avenger-incorporated, i think i'd quit Marvel altogether, and i think so would many others. It's the incorporation and mixing of Xs and As that fans have shown to be quite disdainful towards. It's not a good idea, at least not for the long-term.

It's one thing to be classified as one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and it's another thing to be classified as an Avenger.

#22 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: @oldnightcrawler:

Storm is still an Avengers after what happened? I tought not only she was expelled she was also an internacional criminal, since BP shot at her plane and she knew he was going to do that.

#23 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

I guess I think of the Avengers as a broader thing than just who's on the team; to me it's just Earth's mightiest heroes, which includes heroes who are members of other teams. If a member of the Fantastic 4, the X-men, the Defenders, or whoever, is recognized as one of Earth's mightiest heroes, why shouldn't they count as Avengers?

No. It just sounds like a lot of forced, contrived, lackluster wishes amalgamated into one. It doesn't mean that they're on the same team, but actually, that they were working towards a common goal at that point in time--and i don't think that constitutes automatic membership because they'll still have their differences later on in life, and it'll all be for naught.

what? all of the superheroes who have most proven themselves having the same authority to protect the world? why?

If all the big teams were Avenger-incorporated, i think i'd quit Marvel altogether, and i think so would many others. It's the incorporation and mixing of Xs and As that fans have shown to be quite disdainful towards. It's not a good idea, at least not for the long-term.

I'm not saying that all of the big teams should be Avengers incorporated, X-men and Uncanny X-men and whatever would still be about the X-men, Fantastic 4 would still be about the FF, same for Defenders, Hulk, Daredevil, Spiderman, etc.. but with so many different ways to do an Avengers story, why shouldn't Avengers books, which are really just big team-ups, be able to draw from all of these sources?

It's one thing to be classified as one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and it's another thing to be classified as an Avenger.

and I'm just saying that the distinction between the two seems arbitrary anyway.

#24 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: @oldnightcrawler:

Storm is still an Avengers after what happened? I tought not only she was expelled she was also an internacional criminal, since BP shot at her plane and she knew he was going to do that.

I don't remember anyone ever saying she wasn't an Avenger any more, and she rejoined the Avengers at the end of AvsX.

#25 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultra_beleco said:

@ageofhurricane: @oldnightcrawler:

Storm is still an Avengers after what happened? I tought not only she was expelled she was also an internacional criminal, since BP shot at her plane and she knew he was going to do that.

I don't remember anyone ever saying she wasn't an Avenger any more, and she rejoined the Avengers at the end of AvsX.

Reallt? Them why is she not an Uncanny avenger? Them again, is she in any Avnegrs team at all???

#26 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

I don't remember anyone ever saying she wasn't an Avenger any more, and she rejoined the Avengers at the end of AvsX.

Reallt? Them why is she not an Uncanny avenger? Them again, is she in any Avnegrs team at all???

She's probably busing leading the X-men, the school, and being on X-force. But I think she still has Avengers level clearance like someone like Daredevil, Reed Richards, or the Beast would, despite not being an "active member".

#27 Edited by bigtewell (690 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont thInk they need theIr own government but more of theIr own part In ours lIke theIr own embassy and seat In the u.n. to show they are an equal part of socIety not separate

#28 Posted by desmond006 (594 posts) - - Show Bio

They should have a government. I think utopia was a good concept. If only it was more open to the public. Basically utopia should have been just another country as apposed to separating it self from the rest of the world.

#29 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

I guess I think of the Avengers as a broader thing than just who's on the team; to me it's just Earth's mightiest heroes, which includes heroes who are members of other teams. If a member of the Fantastic 4, the X-men, the Defenders, or whoever, is recognized as one of Earth's mightiest heroes, why shouldn't they count as Avengers?

No. It just sounds like a lot of forced, contrived, lackluster wishes amalgamated into one. It doesn't mean that they're on the same team, but actually, that they were working towards a common goal at that point in time--and i don't think that constitutes automatic membership because they'll still have their differences later on in life, and it'll all be for naught.

what? all of the superheroes who have most proven themselves having the same authority to protect the world? why?

@ageofhurricane said:

If all the big teams were Avenger-incorporated, i think i'd quit Marvel altogether, and i think so would many others. It's the incorporation and mixing of Xs and As that fans have shown to be quite disdainful towards. It's not a good idea, at least not for the long-term.

I'm not saying that all of the big teams should be Avengers incorporated, X-men and Uncanny X-men and whatever would still be about the X-men, Fantastic 4 would still be about the FF, same for Defenders, Hulk, Daredevil, Spiderman, etc.. but with so many different ways to do an Avengers story, why shouldn't Avengers books, which are really just big team-ups, be able to draw from all of these sources?

It's one thing to be classified as one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and it's another thing to be classified as an Avenger.

and I'm just saying that the distinction between the two seems arbitrary anyway.

I don't understand that statement/question--more so cannot under the "same authority to protect the world" sub-statement. What does that mean, exactly ?

Tbhons, that's more or less what you've just said. Clumping "all the superheroes" into one big category , fighting a particular fight, "making them all Avengers" in your eyes. Yes, that's more or less what you said, and it doesn't sound good. And to answer your question, it's cause there's more than enough as it is. When everyone and their grandmother's an Avenger, it just becomes stagnant. They've got their own resources in abundance, draw from that. And as you've said, there are indeed so many ways to do an Avengers story, but i've of yet to see any of this be put into action--even while we're in this "new age".

The Avengers have been through a lot. Lolz.

#30 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand that statement/question--more so cannot under the "same authority to protect the world" sub-statement. What does that mean, exactly ?

I just mean that the Avengers have been granted a recognized authority by the government to be superheroes, one that seems to overrule most other law enforcement agencies, and have seen fit to extend that authority to characters like Dr.Strange, Black Panther, Daredevil, and most members of the Fantastic Four; so why wouldn't they also extend it to key members of the X-men?

Tbhons, that's more or less what you've just said. Clumping "all the superheroes" into one big category , fighting a particular fight, "making them all Avengers" in your eyes. Yes, that's more or less what you said, and it doesn't sound good.

Well that's not what I meant to say. For starters, there's lots of marvel superheroes who operate either outside the law or in opposition to it, or who simply aren't dealing with the kinds of threats that the Avengers deal with. Cyclops' outlaw X-men, for example, couldn't do the job their doing if they were Avengers. Lots of great heroes shouldn't be Avengers: X-force, X-factor, the Runaways, most of NEXTwave, Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Taskmaster, Deadpool, probably Namor, and arguably Hulk and and Black Widow, and, yeah, probably most of the X-men shouldn't be Avengers. I just think, by now, it makes sense that at least some of the more established X-men would be.

And to answer your question, it's cause there's more than enough as it is. When everyone and their grandmother's an Avenger, it just becomes stagnant.

I agree that it's pretty crazy how many characters have been granted Avengers status, and that lots seem like they probably shouldn't have been, in retrospect, but I feel like if characters like Sandman, D-man, Swordsman, Sentry, Ares, Moon Knight, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch can be Avengers, then why not some of the top-tier, established X-men?

And as for becoming stagnant, like I said, before, I'm not in favor of every hero being an Avenger, to me that should be reserved for the most classically superhero-y of marvel characters; I just think that some of the X-men (Beast, Storm, Wolverine, Rogue, Iceman, Havok) definitely fit into that category.

That doesn't even mean that I think they should all be on the Avengers regularly; Storm, for example, is wasted on a team she's not the leader of, but if she's the leader of the team, you call them the X-men, so basically it's a waste to ever have her on the team most of the time. But, if when smegg was really hitting the fan in a way that requires both X-men and Avengers, if Storm shows up with some X-men, the Avengers don't have to be like, oh, the X-men are here so much as, alright, Storm's here; she's one of us., kinda thing.

#31 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

Gotta get those mutants out there in the political spectrum -- gotta get them running for office -- mayors, governors, senators, congressmen/women -- just like any special interest group. They still care about their country and how its run and domestic and foreign policies, etc. If you want to set up a lobby group fine, but the best way to seeing change and acceptance is to see mutants interacting openly with society and one of the quickest ways is to have them run for public office. Doctors and police and firefighters and teachers etc.

You do whatever you can to not separate yourself from society -- you can have differences and you can have specific needs and goals that are unique to you but the important thing is to not create a line.

If anything, maybe you can create a position like Secretary of Mutant Affairs ala Beast but even that I don't particularly subscribe to. Just get them out there doing what citizens do and representation in government is a big part of that.

#32 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

You do whatever you can to not separate yourself from society -- you can have differences and you can have specific needs and goals that are unique to you but the important thing is to not create a line.

If anything, maybe you can create a position like Secretary of Mutant Affairs ala Beast but even that I don't particularly subscribe to. Just get them out there doing what citizens do and representation in government is a big part of that.

Exactly, well said.

Mutants are people, and as such are already citizens with representation in government.

Yeah, sometimes the governments not always going to be on your side, that's why Cyclops has his outlaw X-men: to help those mutants being persecuted by the government and draw attention to the issue, but that definitely doesn't mean that all mutants should have to be outlaws to fight for equality.

#33 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

I don't understand that statement/question--more so cannot under the "same authority to protect the world" sub-statement. What does that mean, exactly ?

I just mean that the Avengers have been granted a recognized authority by the government to be superheroes, one that seems to overrule most other law enforcement agencies, and have seen fit to extend that authority to characters like Dr.Strange, Black Panther, Daredevil, and most members of the Fantastic Four; so why wouldn't they also extend it to key members of the X-men?

Tbhons, that's more or less what you've just said. Clumping "all the superheroes" into one big category , fighting a particular fight, "making them all Avengers" in your eyes. Yes, that's more or less what you said, and it doesn't sound good.

Well that's not what I meant to say. For starters, there's lots of marvel superheroes who operate either outside the law or in opposition to it, or who simply aren't dealing with the kinds of threats that the Avengers deal with. Cyclops' outlaw X-men, for example, couldn't do the job their doing if they were Avengers. Lots of great heroes shouldn't be Avengers: X-force, X-factor, the Runaways, most of NEXTwave, Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Taskmaster, Deadpool, probably Namor, and arguably Hulk and and Black Widow, and, yeah, probably most of the X-men shouldn't be Avengers. I just think, by now, it makes sense that at least some of the more established X-men would be.

And to answer your question, it's cause there's more than enough as it is. When everyone and their grandmother's an Avenger, it just becomes stagnant.

I agree that it's pretty crazy how many characters have been granted Avengers status, and that lots seem like they probably shouldn't have been, in retrospect, but I feel like if characters like Sandman, D-man, Swordsman, Sentry, Ares, Moon Knight, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch can be Avengers, then why not some of the top-tier, established X-men?

And as for becoming stagnant, like I said, before, I'm not in favor of every hero being an Avenger, to me that should be reserved for the most classically superhero-y of marvel characters; I just think that some of the X-men (Beast, Storm, Wolverine, Rogue, Iceman, Havok) definitely fit into that category.

That doesn't even mean that I think they should all be on the Avengers regularly; Storm, for example, is wasted on a team she's not the leader of, but if she's the leader of the team, you call them the X-men, so basically it's a waste to ever have her on the team most of the time. But, if when smegg was really hitting the fan in a way that requires both X-men and Avengers, if Storm shows up with some X-men, the Avengers don't have to be like, oh, the X-men are here so much as, alright, Storm's here; she's one of us., kinda thing.

Last time i checked, they already did that. In saying that "it was just like the X-men were part of the Avengers too, when it came right down to it." there's no specification of who or for why. It's almost as if they've become one entity, and that they've put aside their own ideologies to fight for some greater good through combined team-efforts, permanently. Which sounds awful.

Some of the more established X-Men are Avenger-affiliated. I don't get what you're asking for.

And the analogy doesn't make any sense. I'll exclude Pietro and Wanda because they've been Avengers from day one. Arguing their presence is like arguing why the sky's blue. Well, to me, anyways. Swordsman, Sentry, Ares et al are not part of a particular cause. They're their own people independent of a collaborative goal, pretty sure they can come and go as they please, where as the X-Men, are a family. With their own ideals, mission and purpose. It makes little sense to go about mixing them up with the Avengers, especially in light of recent events--it becomes one big conglomeration and as i've said before, it's boring.

And even as Rogue and Havok (only recall Iceman being a member of the Defenders/Champions, Storm, in my head-canon, was never a fcking Avenger. That was a doombot. And Beast and Wolverine have been for quite sometime, Beast more-so than anyone else--but it at least worked with him--can't really speak for Wolverine) have been given the status, what exactly has it done for them as characters other than get them into the spotlight ? Rogue's done nothing but whine about how crap her teammates are and share the usual spat between either Wanda, Janet or some other female who happens to just come in--since she's arrived, she's gotten into a few tiffs with the enemy here and there, but what, exactly, has she been beneficial ? Same goes for Havok, and i'm not going to elaborate on his case.

And i think you should take a looksie through Ellis' Astonishing runs to see that your statement about Storm's kinda wrong--he understood her place with the X-Men after a long hiatus with T'challa, returning to see just how things had changed--if you haven't read it already, which i thought you would have. It just takes a good writer who knows their history and knows their craft and also has the talent and passion to write--something we lack abundantly in X-Comics of today.

#34 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: Actually Beast, Angel and Iceman were all defenders. Agree on the Storm/ Avengers thing but it was a Life Model Decoy, so please, let's be correct in our robot replacement divisions. In either case Storm (and any other X-Man other than Beast needs to stay away from the Avengers).

#35 Edited by Rich711 (259 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither, I read comics so I can get away from idiots discussing politics.

#36 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

Last time i checked, they already did that. In saying that "it was just like the X-men were part of the Avengers too, when it came right down to it." there's no specification of who or for why. It's almost as if they've become one entity, and that they've put aside their own ideologies to fight for some greater good through combined team-efforts, permanently. Which sounds awful.

Some of the more established X-Men are Avenger-affiliated. I don't get what you're asking for.

I don't think it sounds awful, I think having any more reasons to divide them sounds awful; they're all individual characters with distinct viewpoints, so limiting their interactions to you guys are the Avengers, so you think we should do this, and we're the X-men and we think you should do that, that sounds boring to me.

And I wasn't asking for anything. You were the one who said X-men shouldn't be Avengers, I just told you why I disagreed.

And the analogy doesn't make any sense. I'll exclude Pietro and Wanda because they've been Avengers from day one. Arguing their presence is like arguing why the sky's blue. Well, to me, anyways. Swordsman, Sentry, Ares et al are not part of a particular cause. They're their own people independent of a collaborative goal, pretty sure they can come and go as they please, where as the X-Men, are a family. With their own ideals, mission and purpose. It makes little sense to go about mixing them up with the Avengers, especially in light of recent events--it becomes one big conglomeration and as i've said before, it's boring.

characters come and go from the X-men, too. I just don't see the difference. Quicksilver went from the Avengers to X-factor, Captain Marvel told the Avengers where to stick it and joined the X-men, lots of cool stories would never have happened if they'd remained in their own little bubbles, so, to me, that's the opposite of boring..

And i think you should take a looksie through Ellis' Astonishing runs to see that your statement about Storm's kinda wrong--he understood her place with the X-Men after a long hiatus with T'challa, returning to see just how things had changed--if you haven't read it already, which i thought you would have. It just takes a good writer who knows their history and knows their craft and also has the talent and passion to write.

okay, I think I remember that one, but I'll read it again. Which statement about Storm are you talking about?

#37 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

Last time i checked, they already did that. In saying that "it was just like the X-men were part of the Avengers too, when it came right down to it." there's no specification of who or for why. It's almost as if they've become one entity, and that they've put aside their own ideologies to fight for some greater good through combined team-efforts, permanently. Which sounds awful.

Some of the more established X-Men are Avenger-affiliated. I don't get what you're asking for.

I don't think it sounds awful, I think having any more reasons to divide them sounds awful; they're all individual characters with distinct viewpoints, so limiting their interactions to you guys are the Avengers, so you think we should do this, and we're the X-men and we think you should do that, that sounds boring to me.

And I wasn't asking for anything. You were the one who said X-men shouldn't be Avengers, I just told you why I disagreed.

And the analogy doesn't make any sense. I'll exclude Pietro and Wanda because they've been Avengers from day one. Arguing their presence is like arguing why the sky's blue. Well, to me, anyways. Swordsman, Sentry, Ares et al are not part of a particular cause. They're their own people independent of a collaborative goal, pretty sure they can come and go as they please, where as the X-Men, are a family. With their own ideals, mission and purpose. It makes little sense to go about mixing them up with the Avengers, especially in light of recent events--it becomes one big conglomeration and as i've said before, it's boring.

characters come and go from the X-men, too. I just don't see the difference. Quicksilver went from the Avengers to X-factor, Captain Marvel told the Avengers where to stick it and joined the X-men, lots of cool stories would never have happened if they'd remained in their own little bubbles, so, to me, that's the opposite of boring..

And i think you should take a looksie through Ellis' Astonishing runs to see that your statement about Storm's kinda wrong--he understood her place with the X-Men after a long hiatus with T'challa, returning to see just how things had changed--if you haven't read it already, which i thought you would have. It just takes a good writer who knows their history and knows their craft and also has the talent and passion to write.

okay, I think I remember that one, but I'll read it again. Which statement about Storm are you talking about?

Well sorry it doesn't exactly sound like your cup of tea, but then what comics have you been reading all these years ? That's the general status-quo save for a few exceptions here and there.

I said the X-Men as a collective should never be a part of the Avengers. Yes, there is indeed, a difference.

Lol. Some nice examples, do you happen to remember maybe between 3-5 X-Men going over to the A-Side for a substantial period of time ? (barring the recent lot, which, excluding Beast, doesn't make all that much sense)

This one. "Storm, for example, is wasted on a team she's not the leader of, but if she's the leader of the team, you call them the X-men, so basically it's a waste to ever have her on the team most of the time." you should probably also read MSH: Avengers if you haven't.

#38 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

Well sorry it doesn't exactly sound like your cup of tea, but then what comics have you been reading all these years ? That's the general status-quo save for a few exceptions here and there.

I said the X-Men as a collective should never be a part of the Avengers. Yes, there is indeed, a difference.

oh, well that much I do agree with.

I thought that you meant characters shouldn't be Avengers if they were or had been X-men, and that's all I was disputing.

Lol. Some nice examples, do you happen to remember maybe between 3-5 X-Men going over to the A-Side for a substantial period of time ? (barring the recent lot, which, excluding Beast, doesn't make all that much sense)

This one. "Storm, for example, is wasted on a team she's not the leader of, but if she's the leader of the team, you call them the X-men, so basically it's a waste to ever have her on the team most of the time." you should probably also read MSH: Avengers if you haven't.

As far as I know, only Beast and Wolverine have spent any substantial amount of time on the Avengers. I haven't read as many Avengers comics as I have X-men comics (though, I suspect that would actually be impossible). Is there a particular time you're talking about?

I haven't read MSH: Avengers, is it good? Is that the one with Storm, Wolverine, Spider-man, and the Hulk in it?

#39 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7201 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

Well sorry it doesn't exactly sound like your cup of tea, but then what comics have you been reading all these years ? That's the general status-quo save for a few exceptions here and there.

I said the X-Men as a collective should never be a part of the Avengers. Yes, there is indeed, a difference.

oh, well that much I do agree with.

I thought that you meant characters shouldn't be Avengers if they were or had been X-men, and that's all I was disputing.

Lol. Some nice examples, do you happen to remember maybe between 3-5 X-Men going over to the A-Side for a substantial period of time ? (barring the recent lot, which, excluding Beast, doesn't make all that much sense)

This one. "Storm, for example, is wasted on a team she's not the leader of, but if she's the leader of the team, you call them the X-men, so basically it's a waste to ever have her on the team most of the time." you should probably also read MSH: Avengers if you haven't.

As far as I know, only Beast and Wolverine have spent any substantial amount of time on the Avengers. I haven't read as many Avengers comics as I have X-men comics (though, I suspect that would actually be impossible). Is there a particular time you're talking about?

I haven't read MSH: Avengers, is it good? Is that the one with Storm, Wolverine, Spider-man, and the Hulk in it?

Indeed.

There wasn't a particular time, that was the point.

And it is--for an actual child-friendly book aimed at the actual TA. And yes, the one with them.

#40 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

And it is--for an actual child-friendly book aimed at the actual TA. And yes, the one with them.

ah. Well, I feel like I already get plenty of that with All-new X-men and Wolverine and the X-men, but maybe I'll check it out.

#41 Posted by phisigmatau (433 posts) - - Show Bio

Any universe where mutants are hated but super powered beings are celebrated defies logic.

#42 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

Any universe where mutants are hated but super powered beings are celebrated defies logic.

just like any other form of prejudice, which is one of the main themes of X-men comics.

#43 Posted by DeathSamurai (537 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

I'm sure most of us has got with annoyed with the Avengers and shield decided what you happen to mutants. We got them hunting down Cyclops team and Cable team. So should the mutant race have there own government or there own mutant council that deals with those issues. We know the government always loves to get involved, but wouldn't make more sense for the mutants to deal with there own kind, instead of humans getting involved. Maybe the Mutant government or council could work with shield.

What do you guys think ?

I got thinking about this again, I think it's actually a more interesting subject than I first gave it credit for, which is probably why I'm as interested in what's been going on in some of the current X-men (and Avengers) books as I am.

I actually haven't gotten annoyed with the way that the Avengers decided to go after the X-men in the past few months. I mean, Cyclops' outlaw X-men (or him, Magneto, Emma, and Magik at least) seem fully aware that what they have to do to protect some mutants will put them in opposition to law enforcement agencies, which is sort of what the Avengers are as licensed superheroes. It's why someone like Magneto is fine with being seen as a villain, because he recognizes the hypocrisy that is revealed by that status.

So, yeah, the outlaw X-men know going into this that they will be perceived as the villains, and it's not like that's a new role for any of the main characters. That in itself justifies why the Avengers would (or should) go after them. So they do that at the beginning of the new Uncanny X-men, primarily to establish these X-men's status as outlaws.

But even during that same time frame we see the Avengers (or Thor and Cap', anyway) sort of realizing that they need the authority of the X-men to not be the bad guys themselves. If mutants are to have more of a say, that maybe should include representation in law enforcement. As Storm points out in All-new X-men, if the X-men go after the outlaw X-men it just becomes civil war, with neither side looking any better for their efforts; but for the Avengers to do it kind of is part of their job. Even as an Avenger, Wolverine may not have the ethical authority to judge Cyclops or Magneto, but certainly Havok and Rogue do. And the inclusion of Scarlet Witch and Sunfire means that they have mutant representation beyond former X-men as well, so in this way mutants in general are more fairly represented in their governance, in a way that isn't divisive from the rest of the world.

And it's not as if there isn't already a council of mutants that deals primarily with mutant affairs (and deciding how the rest of the world's rules should apply to them), there's actually a few; they're called the X-men.

#45 Posted by DarkDay (492 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Gotta get those mutants out there in the political spectrum -- gotta get them running for office -- mayors, governors, senators, congressmen/women -- just like any special interest group. They still care about their country and how its run and domestic and foreign policies, etc. If you want to set up a lobby group fine, but the best way to seeing change and acceptance is to see mutants interacting openly with society and one of the quickest ways is to have them run for public office. Doctors and police and firefighters and teachers etc.

You do whatever you can to not separate yourself from society -- you can have differences and you can have specific needs and goals that are unique to you but the important thing is to not create a line.

If anything, maybe you can create a position like Secretary of Mutant Affairs ala Beast but even that I don't particularly subscribe to. Just get them out there doing what citizens do and representation in government is a big part of that.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/06/why-professor-x-should-be-president-x

#46 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday said:

@lykopis said:

Gotta get those mutants out there in the political spectrum -- gotta get them running for office -- mayors, governors, senators, congressmen/women -- just like any special interest group. They still care about their country and how its run and domestic and foreign policies, etc. If you want to set up a lobby group fine, but the best way to seeing change and acceptance is to see mutants interacting openly with society and one of the quickest ways is to have them run for public office. Doctors and police and firefighters and teachers etc.

You do whatever you can to not separate yourself from society -- you can have differences and you can have specific needs and goals that are unique to you but the important thing is to not create a line.

If anything, maybe you can create a position like Secretary of Mutant Affairs ala Beast but even that I don't particularly subscribe to. Just get them out there doing what citizens do and representation in government is a big part of that.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/06/why-professor-x-should-be-president-x

Excellent blog, thank you for the link!

#47 Posted by DarkDay (492 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@darkday said:

@lykopis said:

Gotta get those mutants out there in the political spectrum -- gotta get them running for office -- mayors, governors, senators, congressmen/women -- just like any special interest group. They still care about their country and how its run and domestic and foreign policies, etc. If you want to set up a lobby group fine, but the best way to seeing change and acceptance is to see mutants interacting openly with society and one of the quickest ways is to have them run for public office. Doctors and police and firefighters and teachers etc.

You do whatever you can to not separate yourself from society -- you can have differences and you can have specific needs and goals that are unique to you but the important thing is to not create a line.

If anything, maybe you can create a position like Secretary of Mutant Affairs ala Beast but even that I don't particularly subscribe to. Just get them out there doing what citizens do and representation in government is a big part of that.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/06/why-professor-x-should-be-president-x

Excellent blog, thank you for the link!

No worries. I just happened upon it myself web crawling and remembered it.

#48 Posted by phisigmatau (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@phisigmatau said:

Any universe where mutants are hated but super powered beings are celebrated defies logic.

just like any other form of prejudice, which is one of the main themes of X-men comics.

I guess I didn't make myself clear.

What seperates the public's opinion of garnering Spider-man a super hero in the midst of a city with hundreds of mutants with super powers? 99.999999999% of the population don't and won't ever figure out where he got his powers. They just know he's a super powered being in spandex, and basically that means he most likely a mutant.

#49 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3429 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

@phisigmatau said:

Any universe where mutants are hated but super powered beings are celebrated defies logic.

just like any other form of prejudice, which is one of the main themes of X-men comics.

I guess I didn't make myself clear.

What seperates the public's opinion of garnering Spider-man a super hero in the midst of a city with hundreds of mutants with super powers? 99.999999999% of the population don't and won't ever figure out where he got his powers. They just know he's a super powered being in spandex, and basically that means he most likely a mutant.

yeah, and for a long time, it was a reoccurring theme in Spider-man stories that a lot of the public didn't trust or were afraid of Spider-man. But he's an established hero now; he's made a good name for himself. He's been on the Avengers and the Fantastic Four, yet still remains in the role of being a hero of the people. He's a specific case, not a generalization like has been applied to all mutants/mutant groups. And it's not like he was never accused of being a mutant.