#1 Edited by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

I started reading comics when I learned how to read circa 1981. I quit reading them for a few years after I grew up, but in the past few years have been enjoying them again, and I've noticed something...

Wolverine is a totally different character. And he's absolutely loathsome these days. It's Popularity Induced Power-Creep.

I was thinking about what the character was vs. what he has become, and thought it might be interesting to talk about the differences.

1. Strength - Anyone remember "The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe"? The stock line for non-super-strength characters was, "Whatshisname possesses normal strength for a human who engages in intensive regular exercise" (or something like that). Examples include Daredevil, Punisher, Cyclops, and Wolverine. He's not supposed to be super-strong...not even a little bit...at least he wasn't.

2. Speed - Also not super-fast. Wolvie's not Spider-Man.

3. Fighting Ability - When did he become a super-skilled Martial Arts Expert? Originally he was a wild animal type character. A savage little mountain man brawler who fueled by rage who fought on pure instinct (like Conan of Cimmeria). At some point though, everyone just started assuming he was a master of tons of esoteric Asian fighting systems. Now plenty of people think he's Captain America level in terms of fighting ability.

4. Teh Klawz!!!! His claws were always meant to be unbreakable and razor-sharp. But "unbreakable and razor sharp" does not mean "can cut through anything". It means that his claws can't be broken, they never dull, and they're as sharp as razors. Ok, maybe they're even sharper than razors. Fine. Say they're sharper than obsidian. That doesn't make them lightsabers. He shouldn't be able to cut up The Hulk or The Thing or any other character with a hide that can shrug off bazooka shells. Yeah, maybe the adamantium is hard enough to penetrate the Hulk's skin, but Wolvie's not superhumanly strong. A titanium nail is harder than oak, but try pushing it into an oak tree with your finger.

5. The "Healing Factor" - We all know about this for sure, but I'm talking about it anyway. It's out of control. The power of "healing faster than normal" has become "unkillable". He's like the T-1000 now.

What's next? "Wolverine vs. Reed Richards: Reverse-Engineering The Ultimate Nullifier"

"That could be a close call...Wolverine's healing factor makes his neural synaptic activity perfectly efficient, giving him super intelligence."

Marvel really needs to tone him down and bring him back to what he's supposed to be: a street-level character who's tough and has un-disarmable knives, but can be killed as "easily" as the next super hero, and who's power level means he functions best as part of an ensemble team.

And if anyone hasn't seen this video (which is doubtful in here), watch it. It's funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhko3m7D6UA

#2 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3531 posts) - - Show Bio

TL;DR version of my comment below: I agree - I liked a lot of the Marvel characters when the scales were more consistent. I think the older characters are in "Dragon Ball Z" territory where there power is always going past 1,000,000 because of bad writing and inconsistent plot pacing.

Long version: I remember the "Official Handbook" - it was one of my favorite books. It drew me into the Marvel universe because the characters had history and experience that made sense, whereas in DC, it was a confusing morass of retcons, alternate versions and etc. Marvel has gotten a long way from that, though, and they killed a lot of their drama by being unrepentant about their cash grabs. It's funny because I used to really like his character up until he became so ridiculous. I think this may be an issue with superhero comics, in general. Since character personality is somewhat written in stone and very little of impact happens to them, the main way that writers convey character progression is by amping up their power levels. The problem is that going too far in one direction completely nullifies any sense of risk and as a result, any actual heroism. If Wolverine can wipe out an entire army base full of super strong ninjas with no risk of death due to his healing factor and adamantium skeleton, then he ostensibly had no risk when he engaged them. The result is he becomes a god and/or a bully. Either way, it is not heroic because it was so easy. There is a whole set of literature studying the different Ages of Greek myths and how the gods and goddesses ultimately became separate from heroes in the Bronze Age because it was unquestioned that they were infinitely superior. Heck, I doubt that people even remember that Wolverine was killed in the original "Days of Future Past" story line because they are so used to him being unstoppable.

My favorite Wolverine will always be the '80s era character who grew past his samurai days and had a love of getting drunk and brawling. He was an anti-hero because he was a loner and you couldn't count on him to do the "right" thing. Going back to the original "Days of Future Past" story, it was Storm who had to restrain him from mercilessly killing because he could easily become psychotic which wouldn't reflect well on the X-Men. This really separated his character from more noble heroes even though he could be taken down - mainly because most heroes didn't kill unless completely necessary.

The power levels really have gotten out of control. Jean's evolution to Phoenix was supposed to be about her dealing with the power levels responsibly, but even then, Marvel wanted to amp her to levels that couldn't be sustained in a monthly title. And there are of course too many omega or potentially omega level mutants now.

#3 Edited by Wolverine08 (41309 posts) - - Show Bio

@twogungunnar:

You haven't read that many Wolverine comics have you?

He has always been super strong. He picked up six men with one hand in the first issue of his first solo series back in the mid 80s when he was a borderline Z list character. He's been thrown a 1,600 lb dumpster across an alley with one hand, he' s snapped a dinosaur's neck with his bare hands, he's knocked out the 15 tonner Apocalypse enhanced Caliban with his punches he's completely knocked out a 2,000 lb bear with tow punches, he's helped up an elevator with one hand, he's listed as a low level superhuman in the 2-3 ton range by Marvel. His strength is super human.

He was always superhumanly fast. He kept up with Spider-Man and made Pete think he was faster than him during the 80s when he wasn't popular. He was always a skilled fighter mate. He is a SAMURAI. He mastered 28 forms of Kung Fu under Master Po, he mastered kenjutsu, buijuitsu, aikodo, etc. under Ogun, he was trained under the Hand leader Stick, Weapon X, was trained by Weapon X etc.. And Wolverine is actually better than Captain America when you evaluate their encounters. He stomped Steve in Origins even when his healing factor had been nerfed to next to nothing due to exhaustion from fighting from for days and Steve had the advantage of being fresh and surprise. Steve couldn't beat a Wolverine who had his mind reduced to that of a werewolf. In their most recent fight in Avengers vs X-Men, Wolverine was holding a noticeable edge on Steve despite him holding back. As evidence of him avoiding chances to disembowel and cut off one of Steve's arms. He's beaten Iron Fist one on one in a sparring match, he's dropped Shang Chi in three pages H2H, destroyed Daken when he stopped holding back, dropped the Black Dragon Death Squad, has destroyed Sabretooth on multiple occasions, etc. He has always been an extremely skilled fighter. You think you'll be a Super Soldier without having any fighting ability whatsoever.

Adamantium was ALWAYS meant to be indestructible. And I seriously don't get you being bothered by Wolverine being able to stab Hulk. Writers don't worry about physics. If they did, so many things that we regularly see happen in comics for sake of plot would be stopped. The only thing that has been amped about modern Wolverine is his healing factor's effectiveness.

Judging by your post, you haven't read that many Wolverine or regular comics in general. I'd suggest you do that instead of memorizing old handbooks. It'll help you avoid asinine posts like this in the future.

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#4 Posted by numi (197 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08

Thank you for pointing out just how out of control and over the top Wolverine is and apparently has always been. I used to love him (when I was a kid) but now I'm just sick of him. Too powerful, too unbeatable, no real suspense, no real heroics and never facing real repercussions of his actions.

He's showing up everywhere, ever heard of overexposure? Can we just keep him out of some of the x-books?

As for your Unbreakable ~ Indestructible. He's not disagreeing with you on that point but writers should worry about the mechanics of some things as the more quasi believable it is, the more realistic, the more readers can immerse themselves into it. The point that his claws may be sharp enough and indestructible enough does not mean that he should be able to cut through everything like it's butter.

I agree with @twogungunnar that he needs to be nerfed and I would add that he needs to be culled from several titles.

#5 Edited by Wolverine08 (41309 posts) - - Show Bio

@numi:

Guess what? Every popular superhero is overexposed to some extent. Batman, Superman, Iron Man (He's starting to get there), etc. It's pretty apparent that as long as the majority of people are to are willing to buy most of the comics featuring popular characters, they'll stay overexposed even if a small minority dislikes it. It's simply business. Too? Unbeatable? He's regularly having trouble with street levelers. And yes, he indeed had become more powerful over the years, but that happens to every superhero. Batman went from being a very athletic human being that was a pretty skilled martial artist to a guy who bench presses 1,000 pounds, deflects bullets with ease, knows 127 martial arts, knows 463 ways to incapacitate someone, has a mini military with his tech, etc. Superman went from a guy who could dodge bullets and leap tall buildings in single bounds to a guy who bench presses the Earth for five days straight and moves at light speed along with nanosecond reaction time. Spider-Man went from a kid who struggled to lift cars to someone who can hold up a building, support crashing planes, etc. Are you bothered by their powerups too? No heroics? What do you call what he does with the X-Men? No suspense? That's your subjective opinion. No repercussions? Yeah, like his actions during his time as leader of the Uncanny X-Force blowing up in his face during Uncanny Avengers isn't enough punishment.

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#6 Posted by numi (197 posts) - - Show Bio

He still needs to be nerfed.

#7 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: you totally nailed it with both of your replies.

he may be virtually un-killable, but so are most popular characters on a meta-level. He does have a lot of powers, but most of them are still nothing compared to Superman, Thor, or even Spider-man or most X-men (and he still gets jobbed in service of the story all the time, no one's taken as much of a beating as this guy); he may have extensive knowledge of multiple fighting styles and languages, but it still makes more sense for him than for, say, Batman or Captain America, because he's lived a lot longer.

It's like people don't get that he's a superhero.

#8 Posted by Wolverine08 (41309 posts) - - Show Bio

@numi said:

He still needs to be nerfed.

Same could be said for a lot of popular heroes who have grown more powerful over the years.

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#9 Edited by Wolverine08 (41309 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: you totally nailed it with both of your replies.

he may be virtually un-killable, but so are most popular characters on a meta-level. He does have a lot of powers, but most of them are still nothing compared to Superman, Thor, or even Spider-man or most X-men (and he still gets jobbed in service of the story all the time, no one's taken as much of a beating as this guy); he may have extensive knowledge of multiple fighting styles and languages, but it still makes more sense for him than for, say, Batman or Captain America, because he's lived a lot longer.

It's like people don't get that he's a superhero.

Preach! It just seems people will find the most illogical ways to be negative and complain!

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#10 Posted by numi (197 posts) - - Show Bio

I try not to mix DC and Marvel characters, in fact I don't collect DC because of the very fact that almost all of their characters are overpowered. Let's keep this to Marvel shall we? Within Marvel, if we can keep it to the x-men universe, that would be great, especially since it's an x-men forum.

If you want to get into the business aspects of it, I'll have to look up more statistics to show how overexposure and diminishing returns work.

Anyway, within the context of comics, a little consistency would be a good thing (see believability of storylines). So when a particular writer has someone beating Wolverine down that obviously shouldn't be capable of it because of all his superpowers it tends to break suspension of disbelief. Then in another book they'll have him just shrug off essentially the same attack like it's nothing.

What I said previously was no "real" repercussions. When's the last time the x-men turned their backs on him and cast him out? When is the last time he's been arrested and sent to prison instead of being given a pass?

Back to the original point, now that he's super fast, super skilled, super tough and super strong, he doesn't need a team does he? That was kind of the point, that he needed them and they needed him back in the day and that if they were to tone him down, that dynamic could be explored in what I believe is a better fashion.

#11 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Wolvie was always pretty strong and fast. His powerset is based off animal like abilities, which would include him being faster and stronger than a normal human along with his animal abilities.

His martial arts prowess has existed since the 80s, but I will admit, like a lot of other characters its kind of overblown. I have always liked him as just a really skilled brawler, I think it suits him the best.

As for his claws and healing factor, I remember when his claws couldn't penetrate Blobs skin and he could actually be killed by getting shot, if he was shot enough times, he would need time to heal. I really hate instantaneous healing factors regardless of who has it. It sucks all the suspense out of the characters adventure if he can just heal instantaneously.

#12 Edited by Wolverine08 (41309 posts) - - Show Bio

@numi:

try not to mix DC and Marvel characters, in fact I don't collect DC because of the very fact that almost all of their characters are overpowered.

That's a generalization. DC characters are not overpowered.

If you want to get into the business aspects of it, I'll have to look up more statistics to show how overexposure and diminishing returns work.

Sure, but at the end of the day as long as popular characters like Batman, Wolverine, Superman, etc. keep selling, they will keep being overexposed.

Anyway, within the context of comics, a little consistency would be a good thing (see believability of storylines). So when a particular writer has someone beating Wolverine down that obviously shouldn't be capable of it because of all his superpowers it tends to break suspension of disbelief. Then in another book they'll have him just shrug off essentially the same attack like it's nothing.

Yes, consistency is important, but Wolverine like all comic characters at times will fall victim to the necessity of the plot of the story, or as comic fans have labeled it "jobbing". Comic writers will always play down or play up certain things, aspects, and powers of a character to fit what their stories. Writers who handle Wolverine have been no different.

What I said previously was no "real" repercussions. When's the last time the x-men turned their backs on him and cast him out? When is the last time he's been arrested and sent to prison instead of being given a pass?

You don't need to be kicked off of a team to feel repercussions. The emotional and psychological pain Wolverine endures due to things like his actions leading to him having to kill his son he cared about and him coming back from the grave with hatred for his father, losing the women he's loved, isolating himself due to the pain he's felt, having to accept that throughout his life that he's only generally useful for killing, etc. are more than enough repercussions to last several life times.

Back to the original point, now that he's super fast, super skilled, super tough and super strong, he doesn't need a team does he? That was kind of the point, that he needed them and they needed him back in the day and that if they were to tone him down, that dynamic could be explored in what I believe is a better fashion.

Why does he need a team? Maybe because in the context of things he's not a powerful mutant? There a plethora of mutants running around who can mind rape him, take him out of existence, etc. Wolverine is a freak to regulars, but among superpowered people, he isn't that special.

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#13 Edited by adamTRMM (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

There's no problem with him being super-strong (2-3 tons? not even THAT super-strong), super-fast, super-anything-he-has and even with his over the top exaggerated HF (well, I've heard he survived a nuke, if he did - I'm taking these words back =]). The problem with him being on way too many books and being "developed" by too many writers, with each one of them writing "their own Wolverine". You see, Remender's Wolvie =/= Aaron's Wolvie. There's no way, a man that approves a murder of a child, can sanction Schism, over turning teens into soldiers (and this is Wolverine, almost a mutant Punisher, we are talking about!). There's no way so many writers clearly show and state, how he is not a leader, and Aaron still makes him the leader in Schism!! F*cking Aaron doesn't give a sh*t about an X-continuity. I won't even start with all this "unkillable" stuff. With more than half of the world want his head, he still operates regularly, near children. Very responsible Wolvie, sanction Schism - you fit! Did anyone read UXF? There was this issue, where Psylocke explains to him how she's done with murder, he tried to force her to continue killing "for him" because he is unable to do this himself now. Is this a noble Professor Wolverine? A successor of Xavier's dream? A well accepted Avenger? A hero, some other writers try to convince us he has become? There's no logic around this character anymore, nothing really make sense. And when I see this panel, I'm starting to give up all hope.

#14 Edited by Robert2928 (54 posts) - - Show Bio

I blame Xavier. He obviously took over Wolverine's mind when he "died" in Avengers vs X-Men lol

#15 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:
yay!! the X-men!! (this was a bad issue, but that's not Wolverine's fault)

There's no problem with him being super-strong (2-3 tons? not even THAT super-strong), super-fast, super-anything-he-has and even with his over the top exaggerated HF (well, I've heard he survived a nuke, if he did - I'm taking these words back =]). The problem with him being on way too many books and being "developed" by too many writers, with each one of them writing "their own Wolverine". You see, Remender's Wolvie =/= Aaron's Wolvie. There's no way, a man that approves a murder of a child, can sanction Schism, over turning teens into soldiers

Well, the way I read Uncanny X-Force, it was at least partially that decision (to murder the child) that changed him. Keep in mind, we never see him actually make that decision, only stand by it when someone else does, and be subsequently haunted by the implications of it after the fact. Literally given a second chance, he takes in the next child Apocalypse. That much character development is all right there in that one book, and I don't think what Aaron's done with the character since is really as out of step with that development as everyone keeps acting like it is.

I've never followed his solo books too much, but I've read just about every X-men comic with Wolverine in them, and, to me, it all does make sense.

I blame Xavier. He obviously took over Wolverine's mind when he "died" in Avengers vs X-Men lol

I actually think that would be kind of awesome. Like in Wolverine: The End, yeah?

#16 Posted by Bezza (3537 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I cant agree with much of this post! I love current Wolverine! Anyway as others have pointed out, most characters have been amped up. What about Hulk? He used to be someone who could lift 100 tons and could be killed by a nuclear weapon (according to a comic I had from 1983 with his profile in it), now in WWH or WB guise he has almost indescribable strength and can hardly be stopped by anything. The Hulks healing power too has improved in speed so add that to his immense strength, is he boring too? Wolverine still gets his fair share of kickings, only this year I read an issue where the Scarlet Spider did a number on him and even killed him by stabbing him through his ribs. No Wolverine is still one of my favourite Marvel characters and I cant see that changing..

#17 Edited by adamTRMM (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

Well, the way I read Uncanny X-Force, it was at least partially that decision (to murder the child) that changed him. Keep in mind, we never see him actually make that decision, only stand by it when someone else does, and be subsequently haunted by the implications of it after the fact. Literally given a second chance, he takes in the next child Apocalypse. That much character development is all right there in that one book, and I don't think what Aaron's done with the character since is really as out of step with that development as everyone keeps acting like it is.

This isn't haunted, pay attention at every word he says, issue right after the murder. You see, this murder was a very f*cked up scene (which made me respect and hate Remender in the same time, while hating not because of how wrong was it, but because of the huge moralizing tone like "you see where murder spree leads?!"), and when I call it f*cked up, that means something :). And Wolverine supports it, even after catching a breath, he is 100% sure the right thing was done! And you want to tell me how this is the same person Aaron writes? I wouldn't mind either, only if there was consistence, but now - he is a hypocrite, full blown hypocrite that lies even to himself and without ever facing consequences on the same scale he deserves, that's what his character looks like now. And no, he hasn't changed, I'll quote myself "There was this issue, where Psylocke explains to him how she's done with murder, he tried to force her to continue killing "for him" because he is unable to do this himself now." This is from the recent UXF run. Since Bendis made him a main protagonist in HOM and an Avenger right afterwards, he has become unbearable.

There's a theory I've read, that Fantomex never actually killed this kid, he misdirected everybody into thinking he did, and Genesis we see now isn't a clone, but the real Kid Apocalypse. This is kinda offtopic, just wanted to share :)

and, to me, it all does make sense.

You always try to rationalize the irrational aren't you? ;)

#18 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

This isn't haunted, pay attention at every word he says, issue right after the murder. You see, this murder was a very f*cked up scene (which made me respect and hate Remender in the same time, while hating not because of how wrong was it, but because of the huge moralizing tone like "you see where murder spree leads?!"), and when I call it f*cked up, that means something :). And Wolverine supports it, even after catching a breath, he is 100% sure the right thing was done! And you want to tell me how this is the same person Aaron writes?

I disagree. Maybe I just read it differently, but this was one of the scenes I was thinking of before. As Psylocke (the one who can read minds) says, "who are you trying to convince, Logan?"

To me, this is the obvious beginning of Logan realizing that he's not actually okay with this. I'm not saying it's not open to interpretation, but that's mine.

That's actually one of the things I hate about continuity between different books, it sort of paints your interpretation into a corner..

#19 Edited by adamTRMM (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

I disagree. Maybe I just read it differently, but this was one of the scenes I was thinking of before. As Psylocke (the one who can read minds) says, "who are you trying to convince, Logan?"

To me, this is the obvious beginning of Logan realizing that he's not actually okay with this. I'm not saying it's not open to interpretation, but that's mine.

The recent Wolvie you try to defend :)

#20 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

I disagree. Maybe I just read it differently, but this was one of the scenes I was thinking of before. As Psylocke (the one who can read minds) says, "who are you trying to convince, Logan?"

To me, this is the obvious beginning of Logan realizing that he's not actually okay with this. I'm not saying it's not open to interpretation, but that's mine.

The recent Wolvie you try to defend :)

I'm not trying to defend anything because, yeah, I've read that book too, and though It's nothing like Uncanny X-Force (vol.1), I don't find the two versions of the character to be completely incongruous.

and, honestly, even if I did, it wouldn't really bother me since, y'know, they're two separate stories.

#21 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2872 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

There's no problem with him being super-strong (2-3 tons? not even THAT super-strong), super-fast, super-anything-he-has and even with his over the top exaggerated HF (well, I've heard he survived a nuke, if he did - I'm taking these words back =]). The problem with him being on way too many books and being "developed" by too many writers, with each one of them writing "their own Wolverine". You see, Remender's Wolvie =/= Aaron's Wolvie. There's no way, a man that approves a murder of a child, can sanction Schism, over turning teens into soldiers (and this is Wolverine, almost a mutant Punisher, we are talking about!). There's no way so many writers clearly show and state, how he is not a leader, and Aaron still makes him the leader in Schism!! F*cking Aaron doesn't give a sh*t about an X-continuity. I won't even start with all this "unkillable" stuff. With more than half of the world want his head, he still operates regularly, near children. Very responsible Wolvie, sanction Schism - you fit! Did anyone read UXF? There was this issue, where Psylocke explains to him how she's done with murder, he tried to force her to continue killing "for him" because he is unable to do this himself now. Is this a noble Professor Wolverine? A successor of Xavier's dream? A well accepted Avenger? A hero, some other writers try to convince us he has become? There's no logic around this character anymore, nothing really make sense. And when I see this panel, I'm starting to give up all hope.

Iceman grew a beard in that pic....lol

#22 Posted by adamTRMM (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not trying to defend anything because, yeah, I've read that book too, and though It's nothing like Uncanny X-Force (vol.1), I don't find the two versions of the character to be completely incongruous.

and, honestly, even if I did, it wouldn't really bother me since, y'know, they're two separate stories.

Incongruous they are not, "hypocritical" that's the right term, because he is not really out of character, but the way he acts in one book, makes him look bad in the other, and the writers don't want him learn from his mistakes, the same mistakes years upon years. And this Xavier's protege role? I mean, how can they make him be so irresponsible, when people like Storm and Kitty actually followed him and didn't see a big, fat flaw - if anything, of what he did, will ever be relieved to the world, these children in the school are first to suffer. That's actually how "the Red Onslaught" is going to begin, because of him. But that's ok, he is WOLVERINE, the Marvel's cash cow, he is allowed to do anything, anytime, just put him in this book... and this book.... and these books - fans will bye..

#23 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

I don't find the two versions of the character to be completely incongruous. and, honestly, even if I did, it wouldn't really bother me since, y'know, they're two separate stories.

Incongruous they are not, "hypocritical" that's the right term, because he is not really out of character, but the way he acts in one book, makes him look bad in the other, and the writers don't want him learn from his mistakes, the same mistakes years upon years. And this Xavier's protege role? I mean, how can they make him be so irresponsible, when people like Storm and Kitty actually followed him and didn't see a big, fat flaw - if anything, of what he did, will ever be relieved to the world, these children in the school are first to suffer. That's actually how "the Red Onslaught" is going to begin, because of him. But that's ok, he is WOLVERINE

or they see it as a theme of his character that he's always learning these same kinds of lessons, but yeah, overall he is a rather pitiful creature. This is actually a pretty good critique of the dilemma of Wolverine's character, and I don't disagree with any of it. WOLVERINE IS A HYPOCRITE. feels good to just get that out there.

I guess my thing is that, to me, none of that makes him any less interesting as a character; if anything, it just makes him that much less predictable. Maybe he's not much of a superhero, maybe he's not always the version of the character that everyone wants him to be, but the different roles that writers put him in kind of mirrors his fans. Every fan of Wolverine has a different idea of what he's supposed to be: violent criminal, honorable samurai, savage, soldier, teacher, uncle, all to different degrees depending on who you ask. If he didn't have a seriously violent dark side, he wouldn't be who he is; and if he weren't always fighting against who he is, he wouldn't be the Wolverine.

Or, that's why I don't mind anyway.

#24 Posted by adamTRMM (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

or they see it as a theme of his character that he's always learning these same kinds of lessons, but yeah, overall he is a rather pitiful creature. This is actually a pretty good critique of the dilemma of Wolverine's character, and I don't disagree with any of it. WOLVERINE IS A HYPOCRITE. feels good to just get that out there.

I guess my thing is that, to me, none of that makes him any less interesting as a character; if anything, it just makes him that much less predictable. Maybe he's not much of a superhero, maybe he's not always the version of the character that everyone wants him to be, but the different roles that writers put him in kind of mirrors his fans. Every fan of Wolverine has a different idea of what he's supposed to be: violent criminal, honorable samurai, savage, soldier, teacher, uncle, all to different degrees depending on who you ask. If he didn't have a seriously violent dark side, he wouldn't be who he is; and if he weren't always fighting against who he is, he wouldn't be the Wolverine.

Or, that's why I don't mind anyway.

It still doesn't explain how "the heroic part of the X-men" supported him, and so did Avengers. OK, Avengers are the world police now, so I don't mind corruption and protectionism being part of them, still question of the X-men remains open. As I said, I don't find any of these developments as something impossible (though separate, as I've explained), what troubles me much more is the support he gets, I didn't post this ridiculous scan of him and JGS crew at the backside, with this pathos speech, purposelessly. Aaron actually makes him look right, I guess so does Bendis, cause if you ask me, I don't think Cuckoos (I'm not talking about OAngel) are the only students who should\would join Cyclops, IIRC we only saw QQ mocks about how he should join him. The accents are obvious, aren't they?

#25 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

It still doesn't explain how "the heroic part of the X-men" supported him, and so did Avengers. OK, Avengers are the world police now, so I don't mind corruption and protectionism being part of them, still question of the X-men remains open. As I said, I don't find any of these developments as something impossible (though separate, as I've explained), what troubles me much more is the support he gets, I didn't post this ridiculous scan of him and JGS crew at the backside, with this pathos speech, purposelessly. Aaron actually makes him look right, I guess so does Bendis, cause if you ask me, I don't think Cuckoos (I'm not talking about OAngel) are the only students who should\would join Cyclops, IIRC we only saw QQ mocks about how he should join him. The accents are obvious, aren't they?

I actually started to address this in my last response, but it was getting lengthy, so I didn't bother.

You make a good point about the X-men willing to follow him, so I'll just do a quick rundown of how each character's acceptance of him makes sense (to me, anyway):

  • Storm, Kitty, Rogue, and Jubilee are characters who think of Wolverine as family, and though they know there's a side of him they never see, they never see it. They see the side of him that regrets his transgressions, not the transgressions themselves; simply, their opinion means enough to him that he's never at his worst when they're around.
  • Psylocke and Rachel, besides being able to read his mind, actually have seen Wolverine at his worst, but then, he's seen them at their worst as well, and they also have incredibly violent histories. Consider that Psylocke was also on Uncanny X-Force, and Rachel has tried to kill lots of people; not just Selene (who Wolverine stopped her from killing), but at one point the Beyonder, and at another all life in the universe.
  • Beast and Iceman seem like they do see the hypocrisy of Wolverine, but next to the hypocrisy of Cyclops, Xavier, and themselves, it simply doesn't seem that bad (all of the original X-men are hypocrites at this point).
  • Gambit sees him as a good man who has transcended his past for a noble purpose, which you could see why that would be as much of an inspiration to him as anything.
  • Nightcrawler probably belongs in the first category as well, but I'm making a special point about him not only for his singular relationship to Wolverine, but for his belief in forgiveness; to him, whatever Wolverine has done, acceptable or not, it is forgivable because he sees him as a man both repentant of his sins and trying to be a good man.
  • And Northstar probably just doesn't give a shit; is that everyone?

i'm sure there are some characters I've missed, but I feel like most would fit into at least one of those categories.

#26 Posted by adamTRMM (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Storm, Kitty, Rogue, and Jubilee are characters who think of Wolverine as family, and though they know there's a side of him they never see, they never see it. They see the side of him that regrets his transgressions, not the transgressions themselves; simply, their opinion means enough to him that he's never at his worst when they're around.
  • Psylocke and Rachel, besides being able to read his mind, actually have seen Wolverine at his worst, but then, he's seen them at their worst as well, and they also have incredibly violent histories. Consider that Psylocke was also on Uncanny X-Force, and Rachel has tried to kill lots of people; not just Selene (who Wolverine stopped her from killing), but at one point the Beyonder, and at another all life in the universe.
  • Beast and Iceman seem like they do see the hypocrisy of Wolverine, but next to the hypocrisy of Cyclops, Xavier, and themselves, it simply doesn't seem that bad (all of the original X-men are hypocrites at this point).
  • Gambit sees him as a good man who has transcended his past for a noble purpose, which you could see why that would be as much of an inspiration to him as anything.
  • Nightcrawler probably belongs in the first category as well, but I'm making a special point about him not only for his singular relationship to Wolverine, but for his belief in forgiveness; to him, whatever Wolverine has done, acceptable or not, it is forgivable because he sees him as a man both repentant of his sins and trying to be a good man.
  • And Northstar probably just doesn't give a shit; is that everyone?

i'm sure there are some characters I've missed, but I feel like most would fit into at least one of those categories.

Good explanations, I think I would be less troubled if he wasn't portrayed as a leader, and would operate as a usual Wolverine, more like security :) That Xavier's protege is something I can't accept, he makes this dream look worse than it already does ha.

#27 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

Good explanations, I think I would be less troubled if he wasn't portrayed as a leader, and would operate as a usual Wolverine, more like security :) That Xavier's protege is something I can't accept, he makes this dream look worse than it already does ha.

I basically think you're right, he is more of a right hand man kinda guy. I like him with Cyclops, I love him with Storm; even when Storm lost her powers and some members were speculating on who would lead, he made it clear that he would follow Nightcrawler or even Kitty (who was like 14), rather than lead the team himself. He may be the first guy to challenge authority, or convention in general, but it always seems like he doesn't trust himself to lead, and doesn't think he deserves to.

One of the things I find interesting about his current role as a leader is his reluctance. In the end, it seemed that any criticism he would have of Cyclops could only truly be challenged by not following him, which would ultimately lead to him not being able to protect those he cared about (which is what he considers his duty) unless he could give them somewhere else to go. At the same time, I don't think he could live with himself if he didn't challenge Cyclops when he thought it mattered most; in a way, this was always his role, even before he had any sense of duty to the X-men.

In the 70's especially, it was hard not to be acutely aware of their duality; they even opposite color schemes to their costumes. Cyclops followed authority, and thus became authority, while Wolverine challenged all forms of authority. Their approaches to everything are opposite in light of this; Cyclops was not just trained, but raised to be an authority figure, to be a leader, to be the guy to tell others when and why to fight, whereas Wolverine has forever been used by people in charge, breeding an intense skepticism of authority that has resulted in his years as a loner, and thus his sense of duty to protect others like him, the people who accepted him. To both of these characters, the X-men is their family and means everything to them, they were just made for opposite roles.

In a way, putting himself in Cyclops' shoes, taking on the responsibility of what he was challenging, was really Wolverine's ultimate act of rebellion. That he doesn't trust himself to lead, that he doesn't think he deserves to, and that he's only doing it because he feels he has to, is what makes it work.

All that said, I am really glad Storm's back to being the real leader of the X-men while Wolverine's dealing with all of his insecurities :v

#28 Edited by adamTRMM (1670 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

I basically think you're right, he is more of a right hand man kinda guy. I like him with Cyclops, I love him with Storm; even when Storm lost her powers and some members were speculating on who would lead, he made it clear that he would follow Nightcrawler or even Kitty (who was like 14), rather than lead the team himself. He may be the first guy to challenge authority, or convention in general, but it always seems like he doesn't trust himself to lead, and doesn't think he deserves to.

So you do understand where my point is coming from :) When he led the X-force (though I don't really recall this in the UXF), he was kinda full of denial, but he understood that in the end of the day, he's under Cyclops' supervision, so he was like only a field-leader under other strategic leadership and "liked" it this way.

One of the things I find interesting about his current role as a leader is his reluctance. In the end, it seemed that any criticism he would have of Cyclops could only truly be challenged by not following him, which would ultimately lead to him not being able to protect those he cared about (which is what he considers his duty) unless he could give them somewhere else to go. At the same time, I don't think he could live with himself if he didn't challenge Cyclops when he thought it mattered most; in a way, this was always his role, even before he had any sense of duty to the X-men.

Yes, this is totally his ways to criticize the leader, but never acting as one. I'm not against him as a person who would take the opposition to Scott, but not as a leader. He should've convinced some other leader to make a stand and to promise he will support her\him, I think it should've been Storm, but I guess her role as a Queen of Wakanda at that time prevented from writers to use her as a leading antithesis to Cyclops' ways.

In the 70's especially, it was hard not to be acutely aware of their duality; they even opposite color schemes to their costumes. Cyclops followed authority, and thus became authority, while Wolverine challenged all forms of authority. Their approaches to everything are opposite in light of this; Cyclops was not just trained, but raised to be an authority figure, to be a leader, to be the guy to tell others when and why to fight, whereas Wolverine has forever been used by people in charge, breeding an intense skepticism of authority that has resulted in his years as a loner, and thus his sense of duty to protect others like him, the people who accepted him. To both of these characters, the X-men is their family and means everything to them, they were just made for opposite roles.

I actually do think he is best as supporting character in the team-comics or leading HIS own, and it would be best for him for now to leave the X-men (because of his very presence being threatening the children, after some attack against HIM).

In a way, putting himself in Cyclops' shoes, taking on the responsibility of what he was challenging, was really Wolverine's ultimate act of rebellion. That he doesn't trust himself to lead, that he doesn't think he deserves to, and that he's only doing it because he feels he has to, is what makes it work.

Yeah, but it still felt so forced, the way Aaron was putting him in this role, btw I think if somebody should've understood the extreme direction Cyclops takes (even when this was also TOO forced by Aaron, again) it would be Logan.

P.S.: I still think this was a mess all this stuff :)

#29 Posted by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

A few things I've noticed people say:

"A lot of other characters have become more powerful! They're superheroes!"

Yes, that's true. I know. But Wolverine's the one I'm talking about. I'm not arguing that no other characters have been victims of Power Creep, I'm just saying I think it's lame. Apparently it doesn't bother some people. I think it's lame. In the case of Wolverine, it's a particularly bad case of The Creep. I don't like it.

"You obviously don't read Wolverine comics".

Nope. Sure don't. Not anymore. I don't like the character anymore for reasons discussed. But it's not accurate to suggest I haven't ever read Wolverine comics. I got hooked on X-Men around 1982, and read it regularly through around '89 (about a year after Fall of the Mutants). And I read the entire run of Classic X-Men. And I have the 4-issue Wolverine limited series that came out in '82.

"What do you mean Wolverine's not super-strong? He's *insert stupid strength feat here*!"

I know he's apparently super strong now, but originally he wasn't. Originally his powers and characteristics were:

  1. Unbreakable razor sharp claws.
  2. Super-healing - he healed faster than normal, but nowhere near the dumb extent he does now.
  3. Super-senses - not as super as Daredevil, but pretty good.
  4. Unbreakable skeleton - here I just want to point out that while this power is cool, Wolvie fans make it a much bigger deal than it is, for 2 reasons:
    • Since when do comic-book fights hinge on broken bones anyway? How many times has there been a comic book fight, and the loser lost because his bones were broken? It's happened a few times, but usually the loser just gets KO'd or zapped or rendered unconscious in some other way.
    • Wolvie's bones are indestructible. Ok. But the ligaments holding his skeleton together are not. So his head/arms/legs/whatever could be ripped off as easily as anyone else's.
  5. Bad temper - Wolvie wasn't a tortured brooding soul. He just had a short temper and was prone to violence. Like a badger. Or a wolverine.

It's not just that I don't like the character....I mean, I don't, but I want to. I used to like Wolverine a lot back before he caught The Creep. Back when he was just one of several X-Men. Now though...yuck. Just....yuck.

#30 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

A few things I've noticed people say:

"A lot of other characters have become more powerful! They're superheroes!"

Yes, that's true. I know. But Wolverine's the one I'm talking about. I'm not arguing that no other characters have been victims of Power Creep, I'm just saying I think it's lame. Apparently it doesn't bother some people. I think it's lame. In the case of Wolverine, it's a particularly bad case of The Creep. I don't like it.

"You obviously don't read Wolverine comics".

    • Wolvie's bones are indestructible. Ok. But the ligaments holding his skeleton together are not. So his head/arms/legs/whatever could be ripped off as easily as anyone else's.

I've brought this up before in the battles forum. Apparently he has adamantium joints and ligaments as well.

#31 Edited by AlKusanagi (602 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't a Wolverine thing. This is a mutant thing. Back in the day, mutants were pretty much normal humans with one special gift that set them apart. They had a power, not a power set, which was one of the reasons being in a team was so important. One enemy with several powers was easily a match for one mutant, but a whole team could put their powers together to take it down. Avengers VS X-men? 25 years ago a single Avenger would have been a match for the X-men, but they've been steadily getting more ridiculous with secondary mutations and exponential power growth.

I liked them back when they actually were the scrappy underdogs than mankind unjustly feared, rather than now where they are demigods that mankind should rightfully fear.

#32 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3531 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@twogungunnar said:

A few things I've noticed people say:

"A lot of other characters have become more powerful! They're superheroes!"

Yes, that's true. I know. But Wolverine's the one I'm talking about. I'm not arguing that no other characters have been victims of Power Creep, I'm just saying I think it's lame. Apparently it doesn't bother some people. I think it's lame. In the case of Wolverine, it's a particularly bad case of The Creep. I don't like it.

"You obviously don't read Wolverine comics".

    • Wolvie's bones are indestructible. Ok. But the ligaments holding his skeleton together are not. So his head/arms/legs/whatever could be ripped off as easily as anyone else's.

I've brought this up before in the battles forum. Apparently he has adamantium joints and ligaments as well.

Wait. That...doesn't make any sense. You could have adamantium joints (senior citizens often get titanium hip joints as they get older, for example), but the connective tissue such as ligaments or tendons, would lose their utility if coated in metal because they connect muscle tissue.

Let me stop right now before I start thinking more deeply on comic book science.

#33 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4480 posts) - - Show Bio

I know he's apparently super strong now, but originally he wasn't. Originally his powers and characteristics were:

  1. Unbreakable razor sharp claws.
  2. Super-healing - he healed faster than normal, but nowhere near the dumb extent he does now.
  3. Super-senses - not as super as Daredevil, but pretty good.
  4. Unbreakable skeleton - here I just want to point out that while this power is cool, Wolvie fans make it a much bigger deal than it is, for 2 reasons:
    • Since when do comic-book fights hinge on broken bones anyway? How many times has there been a comic book fight, and the loser lost because his bones were broken? It's happened a few times, but usually the loser just gets KO'd or zapped or rendered unconscious in some other way.
    • Wolvie's bones are indestructible. Ok. But the ligaments holding his skeleton together are not. So his head/arms/legs/whatever could be ripped off as easily as anyone else's.

Wolverine's been faster and stronger than a baseline human since at least the late 70's; I remember Cyclops making note of it while fighting him. This was pre-Phoenix Saga ('77). And Storm brings it up again when she becomes leader of the team during Days of Future Past.

He may have gotten stronger still since then, but those have been part of his power-set for at least that long.

#34 Posted by Joygirl (19563 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Edited by MideonNViscera (362 posts) - - Show Bio

I totally agree. I don't know where this superhuman strength thing is coming from, but even with 100 examples it still makes zero sense.

I especially agree about the lightsaber claws though. He's always cutting through big metal doors and stuff, but much of the time they're not even drawn sharp, just pointy. If they're so sharp he can cut through 3 feet of steel or whatever, how in the world does he manage to pop the tag on an aluminum beer can with them?

While we're on the subject, I think some writers need to learn that Molson Canadian is crap beer and definitely not what Wolverine would drink, Canadian or not. He would drink Keiths, hands down.

The healing factor is so off the charts these days even some of my friends who don't read comics laugh about it. I have one friend who will now argue with me that Wolverine can survive complete and utter nuclear decimation so long as some molecule of him is left thanks to that Civil War story. Now according to Uncanny X-Force (which I did love anyway) he can't even die from anything except drowning.

How the hell does he swim anyway?

Also, if he's currently without his healing factor, why isn't he dying of adamantium poisoning like has been clearly established before? Did they write an excuse for that?

Anyway, this whole post was basically tongue in cheek. It's super easy to nit-pick Wolverine. He used to be a more clearly defined character but popularity destroyed that. It's kinda just how it goes.

#36 Edited by danhimself (22498 posts) - - Show Bio

I started reading comics when I learned how to read circa 1981. I quit reading them for a few years after I grew up, but in the past few years have been enjoying them again, and I've noticed something...

Wolverine is a totally different character. And he's absolutely loathsome these days. It's Popularity Induced Power-Creep.

I was thinking about what the character was vs. what he has become, and thought it might be interesting to talk about the differences.

1. Strength - Anyone remember "The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe"? The stock line for non-super-strength characters was, "Whatshisname possesses normal strength for a human who engages in intensive regular exercise" (or something like that). Examples include Daredevil, Punisher, Cyclops, and Wolverine. He's not supposed to be super-strong...not even a little bit...at least he wasn't.

2. Speed - Also not super-fast. Wolvie's not Spider-Man.

3. Fighting Ability - When did he become a super-skilled Martial Arts Expert? Originally he was a wild animal type character. A savage little mountain man brawler who fueled by rage who fought on pure instinct (like Conan of Cimmeria). At some point though, everyone just started assuming he was a master of tons of esoteric Asian fighting systems. Now plenty of people think he's Captain America level in terms of fighting ability.

4. Teh Klawz!!!! His claws were always meant to be unbreakable and razor-sharp. But "unbreakable and razor sharp" does not mean "can cut through anything". It means that his claws can't be broken, they never dull, and they're as sharp as razors. Ok, maybe they're even sharper than razors. Fine. Say they're sharper than obsidian. That doesn't make them lightsabers. He shouldn't be able to cut up The Hulk or The Thing or any other character with a hide that can shrug off bazooka shells. Yeah, maybe the adamantium is hard enough to penetrate the Hulk's skin, but Wolvie's not superhumanly strong. A titanium nail is harder than oak, but try pushing it into an oak tree with your finger.

5. The "Healing Factor" - We all know about this for sure, but I'm talking about it anyway. It's out of control. The power of "healing faster than normal" has become "unkillable". He's like the T-1000 now.

What's next? "Wolverine vs. Reed Richards: Reverse-Engineering The Ultimate Nullifier"

"That could be a close call...Wolverine's healing factor makes his neural synaptic activity perfectly efficient, giving him super intelligence."

Marvel really needs to tone him down and bring him back to what he's supposed to be: a street-level character who's tough and has un-disarmable knives, but can be killed as "easily" as the next super hero, and who's power level means he functions best as part of an ensemble team.

And if anyone hasn't seen this video (which is doubtful in here), watch it. It's funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhko3m7D6UA

a lot of what you're complaining about is based on misinformation on your part

1. he has always been stronger than a normal human....due to his healing factor his muscles don't break down like ours so he's able to do things that normal people would never be able to do...plus he's constantly carrying around an extra 100lbs of weight

2. not super fast but he's at least at peak human

3. Wolverine has always been a highly skilled fighter...he's been alive for almost 200 years and spent a large amount of time in Japan training with master martial artists

4. there's something about the qualities of adamantium that when it's sharpened it takes less force than normal blades to cut through the same objects

5. Wolverine's healing factor has been drastically cut back on over the last decade...not to long ago he found out that when he received death worthy injuries he actually did die each time and would fight Azrael and win in order to come back...after he was brainwashed by the Hand he asked Azrael to cleanse his soul of what the Hand had done to him...Azrael agreed but also said that he would no longer give Wolverine the chance to fight for his life and if he received fatal enough wounds then he would stay dead

#37 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

#38 Posted by Wolverine08 (41309 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: You'd think people who make these ridiculous threads, would at least educate themselves on basic things.

#40 Posted by Wolverine08 (41309 posts) - - Show Bio

@peppeyhare:

The OP read some old handbooks to educate himself and rant here... LMAO!

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#41 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: My original pokemon handbook from the 90s says that there's only 151, but apparently now there's like 700 or something. WHATS UP WITH THAT NINTENDO?HUH? TONE IT DOWN GUYS!

#42 Posted by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

You don't have very good reading comprehension do you? I've read plenty of X-Men comics...collected them from around '81-'89. Tried to get back into them a few times, but they're just not as good. One of the reasons is because Wolverine's lame now.

#43 Posted by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

"...read some old handbooks"

Do you even know what those were? The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe was exhaustive profiles of every character; it included biographical information and profiles culled from every appearance the character ever made, written by the same people who wrote the comics - it was the very literal definition of "canon". And in it, Marvel clearly stated that Wolverine was not super-strong or super-fast. I realize that's changed since then, which is the whole point of the OP. They've changed Wolverine to something else. Something stupid. Because he's popular.

#44 Posted by spartan1008 (6 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm with you on this, wolverine was a slower, weaker, smaller sabertooth (after sabertooth was transformed from a cloak and dagger street thug to a mutant) who used to get beat up every year on his birthday to within an inch of his life. now hes fighting multiple sabertooths (sabertooth has gotten several surgical upgrades over the years making him much faster and stronger than he was in the old days) and not only holding his own, but killing many of them. he was always slightly stronger than normal but his strength was never at the 2 to 3 ton range, he can push a car not pick one up over his head and throw it down the street. He was a good fighter who relied on his healing factor, now hes supposed to be one of the top fighters in world, its silly and its only getting sillier.