ninja Psylocke or british Psylocke or crimson dawn psylocke

If this question was already posted then my bad, I just joined recently but I believe British Psylocke was the Emma Frost of that time, she clashed with Rogue and Havok didnt trust her, very prim, then there is Ninja Psylocke, 80s 90s version was sneaky, sex kitten, action junkie everything she wanted to be, the body swap story was confusing

( becuz of writers, they shouldve kept the original story of mojo using magic on her) Crimson Dawn Psylocke was dope, it fit her ninja ways slipping thru shadows, I didnt like the tattoo tho.

@drizzle1030: ninja Psylocke is still British, right?

I choose ninja. It's actually kind of amazing that she's the only telepathic ninja in X-men comics, considering how many telepaths and ninjas there are.

@oldnightcrawler: yes.. Ninja Psylocke is still british, I just didnt want to say

White Psylocke vs Ninja Psylocke, also my original title did say ninja psylocke with british accent but it said my title was too long, I do agree a ninja telepath is dope, I just hate the fact they dont keep that concept anymore, like they did when she first got the ninja body, now im wondering who would win in a battle her vs elektra

I don't know what you mean by this; she is still a ninja, yeah?

and unless Electra has some way to balance out/negate telepathy/telekinesis, I don't think she'd be much of a match for Psylocke who should be just as proficient at fighting.

I don't remember anyone not trusting Caucasian Psylocke......

I really liked Caucasian Psylocke, I always found it intriguing that she had no fighting skills to speak of and just served as the groups telepath it was different as the rest of the X-men were seasoned fighters. There was also her super neat hooded outfit.

I always thought there was some kind of message interwoven in changing her to ninja, asian Psylocke, its often said if you have a women reveal more cleavage and skin it objectifies them, therefore taking away their power, and that was kind of an underlying message during the "Acts of Vengeance" crossover where she debuted, but, I could be simply reading too much into it.

Or of course it could of simply been that Claremont really liked Elektra, seeing as they have the same outfit in different colors.

Either way, I think Psylocke was leagues more interesting when she was not a ninja.

it was the same role Xavier had had on the team, except in his case they decided he was better off just not serving in the field.

the hooded outfit was kind of cool though, except that her armor made her look like a Scarlet Witch knock-off.

actually she debuted in Captain Britain, and was first featured with the X-men during the Mutant Massacre (just a bit before AoV), holding her own against Sabretooth.

But yeah, despite becoming more of a superhero because of her transformation, she also seemed like more of a victim. This certainly wasn't helped by her becoming more sexualized, although I maintain that that has more to do with how she was being drawn than what she was wearing. Despite how impractical her bathing suit costume was, the artists that drew her like a ninja (Kubert, for example) could pull it off, while the artists who drew her posed like a swimsuit model (Lee, Silvestri, too many others) were strait-up just objectifying her.

it was really because that's how Jim Lee wanted to draw her, which is a really stupid reason to change her as much as they did. It's a big part of why I didn't like Psylocke for years, it just all seemed so contrived.

But, at this point, it's just such a big part of her character that I do like her again, and have actually come to like her more as a ninja. Even in part because of how singularly weird her back-story is. I mean, at this point she's been a ninja for wayyy longer than she wasn't one, so most of her character development has really been because of that.

@oldnightcrawler: what I meant is late 80s and early 90s Asian Psylocke was silent unless she was in thought or around wolverine, she was always coming out of no where when she attacked someone, example in X-Men 1 when she kicked magnetos helmet off, she came out no where, or when her and jubilee had to rescue wolverine, she made one the hunters think they attacked her, Ninja Psylocke was much sneakier and different with her telepathy, then they didnt kno what to do with her and made a bathing suit with a one liner and pyschic knife, so to answer yes she still a ninja, but not how she was, not extinction agenda Psylocke, or uncanny X-Men from acts of vengence to uncanny xmen 280 Psylocke, you could reread xmen 1 thru 9 to get a feel of what im talking about, I will admit I was excited to see her in the all female X-Men and she was on the roof with her psychic bow n arrow, but somehow now in xforce shes a female sabretooth who can stop killing

@cattlebattle: how far back in Xmen history do you remember?? When Madeline Pryor became the Goblin Queen in Inferno story line Havok and Psylocke got into it about respecting mental boundries, and in his thought bubble he expressed being uneasy around her and her abilities, I know logan vouch for her for holding her own against sabretooth, I know the remaining Xmen felt uneasy when she had them go thru the siege perilous, I know Storm got along with her, so did dazzler, collosus loved drawing her, longshot got along witg everybody, but I think Rogue's maturity level always seem to clash with Psylockes, I always got the vibe that carol danvers personality like Psylocke not Rogue, especially when they use to train against each other, I agree I loved psylocke cloak and armor wwwayy better than that pink pajama outfit, your also right about psylocke being the only telepath on the team, its weird how they made that power vital to team, since the team was created by a telepath, the xmen has never been without a telepath

@drizzle1030: yeah, I haven't been reading the new X-force, but I liked her in Uncanny X-Force (vol.1) and even in Uncanny X-Force (vol.2) (although she's really all I liked about vol.2; it really wasn't very good.

She's had some cool moments in Wood's X-Men; while the series has been hot and cold so far*, she's had some pretty cool moments. I like how she's sort of replaced Wolverine as Storm's wildcard right-hand-man. She's got that air of mystique about her like she had under Claremont, not saying much but being bad-ass at the same time.

*(if you haven't been reading Wood's book, I'd recommend trying the first 4 issues and then just skipping to issue #13 - Bloodline Part 1 of 6, which gets back to the story that Wood established in the first arc.

This book got pretty sloppy around BotA, and the arc after that was not very good overall (both of which feel like they could be blamed on poor editorial choices), but issue 13 feels like it's getting the book back on track and #14 looks like it'll be pretty good, too.)

Eh, I'm going to say Ninja because she's actually matured into a deeper more disciplined character (morally). While British Psylocke was very similar to Emma in that she caused alot of internal dysfunction without really caring.

But lets all be careful how much we explore this because marvel may decide since were so interested to do yet another "Do you want your body back?" story with her.

Not really. Xavier was the mentor, and was the most powerful telepath on earth. Betsy was just a recruit and wasn't all that powerful. Which was another intriguing factor about her.

I has been stated that her hooded look was patterned after Raven from Teen Titans

brittish betsy was so boring. ninja pyslocke is awesome

it was definitely the most interesting thing about her at the time. I mean, it's lucky she showed up just as they ran out of telepaths, because what's the X-men without a telepath? ..but her only really defining trait early on was that she wasn't very powerful of especially well trained, which was interesting after Jean, Xavier, and Rachel, but it was really the only thing that made her very distinct at all.

anyway, my point was just that they'd had a non-combatant telepath before, that's all.

Anglo-Betsy was an interesting character. You're right about her being a non-combatant telepath, like Xavier... having a rookie as their team-link was also very interesting.

She really was like Emma-lite... a cause for internal squabbles and conflict without caring.

Ninja-Betsy was still fighting for identity... with Kwannon. The more Elizabeth Braddock emerged to dominate the memories of Kwannon, the more the stealth-ninja default receded.

Crimson Dawn Psylocke was still ninja... just with slightly different powers, and shadow-porting.

Current Pyslocke - who is the wild-card on a team of wild cards (both in XX and in X-Force) - is even more interesting. Her internal struggle with killing is really intriguing. Fighting one's true nature? or Defying the expectations others impose upon you because you are a ninja and have killed before?

Current Psylocke is the best of them all. She is now a full-fledged X-Woman. Side-kick to no-one, but team mate and go-to duo-mate for many. (always enjoy her best teamed with Storm). Not to mention, thanks to deaths, she's now - according to Dr Nemesis, the No#3 telepath on earth. (hmmm actually can't recall if he said 2nd or 3rd?)

This

1. I think so too.

2. was that before Rachel returned to Earth or after Emma lost her powers?

Ninja. Mainly because that's the one in Uncanny X-Force.

it was after... AvX... during the Uncanny X-Force/Cable and X-Force "cross-over" when they were trying to locate hope and bishop and stryfe

No, no she's not. Ninja Psylocke is So long gone its a generation ago.

I want a muscular, chunky German Psylocke. Preferably with a costume like the Goblin Queen's. And a whip.

isn't that Sin?

No, it's pleasure. And a lot of pain.

that went to a really naughty place... lol

This, and this made me think about how even more AWEsome Psylocke is. I just realized a psychic ninja sounds epic and I wondering why no one ever capitalized on this idea before. (+)

i think it was. during the 90s it was a big deal - Blue team was all about as much Wolverine and Ninjalocke as possible (and some Cyclops drama of course, but that's an x-men given). Even Elektra has an almost psychic sixth sense.

Crimson Dawn

I didn't mean capitalized like, why didn't they capitalized on Psylocke, I mean why didn't more companies, corporations, creative teams, make more ninja psychics. I feel like the idea of ninja psychic is too DOPE for so many creative entities not to capitalize on it.

I think Marvel capitalizes on Psylocke a lot, definitely, but I feel like there should be more psychic ninjas. (+)

ninja psylocke.

@westfriesianman: the animated series got me into the comics, the first book was Psylocke jubilee and wolverine issue of extinction agenda thinking why is wolverine wearing that suit in tan n brown, jubilee is way better n the comics then the cartoon, and who is this purple hair asain lady, her teammates were scared of her to let her read their minds, then after getting into xmen I started reading older issue when they were in Australia, seeing this white lady with purple hair wondering who the hell is that, when somebody called her psylocke I was like psylocke is a asain ninja chick, right then I was hooked and wanted to kno her story, how she daydreamed for adventure, I feel Psylocke is the cautionary tale of be careful what u ask for cuz u will get it, I do hate the body swap story, its confusing from the act of vengence story, which confused me for a long time till I found out the writer fidnt do his homework and butchered her history,

I wish they just wouldve explain mojo obsession with her period

British Psylocke was my favorite. I always thought it was very weird to alter her race in such a roundabout way. Apparently, Jim Lee wanted to draw a Japanese ninja, so this was an easy way for him to accomplish that.

Anyway, I tend to like the more straightforward heros who aren't ninjas, super assassins, "renegades", Mary Sue or Marty Stew characters and Betsy always seemed pretty cool. It's a shame that some artists just don't find energy wielders as interesting as the martial artists/brawler characters. I thought one of the most interesting parts of Psylocke's back story was how she bemoaned not being a warrior, yet she had quite a few standout moments holding her own as a telepath. The "now she's a ninja" storyline killed what was most interesting about a warrior that didn't appreciate how bad @ss she really was, and her character has been in various stages of inconsistency as a result.

I agree with everything you wrote. But, turning her into a japanese ninja was Claremonts idea. Jim Lee was still new to the X-Men and didn't have any sway at that time. Although, Claremont does write to artists strengths, so its possible he wrote more Madripoor styled stories and had Jubilee be asian to fit Lees style, but, changing her race was very much Claremonts idea.

I don't recall exactly; technically, Betsy had already gone through a few character reinventions from an agent to a fill in Captain Britain and eventually an X-Man, so I think the back story you suggested was about right - it may really have been as simple as Jim Lee wanting to draw a ninja and Claremont going along with it. That makes a lot of sense since X-Men 256 was the first long-term appearance of her as a brainwashed ninja (this was supposed to be Wolverine, but that idea was scrapped) and coincidentally, it was also Jim Lee's official takeover as penciler as Silvestri's last issue was 255.

Claremont also had a fascination with turning characters into ninjas. Wolverines background in martial arts came to light after a collaboration with Frank Miller. Later on, Kitty Pryde learned martial arts and had ninja skills. So, I would lean more with ninja Betsy being his idea. I am not sure if he ever intended to have Betsy turn back to a caucasian as here original transformation was to be a result of Spirals body shoppe and include Mojo.

@cattlebattle: I read somewhere when I was trying to understand Psylocke body swap story that Claremont original Idea was to make pyslocke caucasion again, but she would keep her ninja fighting skills, just like I heard he hates the crimson dawn ordeal, and that was his reason of having Vargas kill her, which is stupid cuz I thought the crimson dawn would bring her back like the shadow king storyline

Ah. Interesting. Yeah, Claremont doesn't really like anything that happened to the X-Men after his departure, and I have to agree with him on a lot of fronts. A lot of characters regressed into 2 dimensional characters and he did try to fix a lot of stuff during X-Treme X-Men, unfortunately, he was too late and fans were already used to all the changes.

I'm not sure if this is a sign that I'm getting older or something, but I am more fascinated by researching the back stories behind various story lines and creative decisions than reading the current books post AvX.

My only problem with telepathic ninjas is that they never seem to be done correctly. A telepath or empath with ninja training should be extremely skilled in psychological warfare and oddly enough, gimping Betsy's telepathy in exchange for martial arts skills, made her less effect in that arena. British Betsy the Telepath would have functioned better as a ninja than current Betsy does. I chalk it up to a lack of writers and artists creativity when using telepathy and other energy-based powers.

well, it's the same reason that we get so many genius scientists acting like idiots: most comic book writers sadly are not ninjas.

@oldnightcrawler: That reminds me of when Hideo Kojima and members of the Metal Gear development team went through Basic Training to understand survival training methods. From now on, comic book writers can only write what they know. Meaning they need to be body builders with Masters degrees or PhDs in a scientific background, with some ninjitsu and h2h training. They comic book world will never be the same.

@phoenixofthetides: or maybe just do some research?

I think there's ways to be creative with these things without being an expert, I think it's more like you say, that writers sometimes just don't bother.

@phoenixofthetides: I dont think its about age, I love going back on issues too and im 30.. for me it helps me understand them more, the farthest ive read was dark Phoenix, but I love the story line of the xmen living n Australia when Silvestre

( whatevs) drew them, I loved that version of rogue

Gallery

Marc Silvestri drew a mean Rogue. She's nowhere near my favorite character, but I could tell Claremont enjoyed writing her, and Silvestri enjoyed showing her zooming around.

Adding this image and a grew quote from another site to showcase why this version of Psylocke will always be my favorite - my critique is always that that strategist side of her personality became permanently downplayed in favor of the self-professed "action junky" (Betsy fans might appreciate the fan comment at the very bottom of the page I linked to). She's never had as many solid feats since, IMHO - she took on multiple primary enemies at once telepathically multiple times at this point:

As we follow her history and evolution, Psylocke is now showing a definite opening up of her innate strengths in battle strategy, keen and sharp with tactics and attack plans. Also: that devil-may-care saucy "over the shoulder" glance. Plus, hair that blends into her natural surroundings! She's got Nightcrawler's "fade into the shadows" bit down pat already! There's not a lot of Psylocke in UXM #225, but what there is is pretty impressive, as she helps the X-Men fight off a cadre of Freedom Force, the former Brotherhood of Evil Mutants

LINK to fan-recap: X-Men v. Freedom Force (Uncanny X-Men 225)

@phoenixofthetides: thats crazy u scanned those images, the was the first book I read with them in Australia, I love how Rogue was, (she kissed juggernaut becuz herpes wasnt invented then) and threw him, green and black suit Rogue was dope to me, the fact that those four took him down was dope

@drizzle1030: They're from that site at http://bullyscomics.blogspot.com/search/label/Psylocke%20Psaturday. Apparently the guy is a huge Psylocke fan. But, yeah, I liked that lineup. It really seemed like Claremont really got along with Arthur Adams and Marc Silvestri, because most of the team members looked good during that time period.

Yeah, I don't think its age either. Ever since I was a teenager always enjoyed Claremonts run more than others, in fact, I think most X-Men runs outside of his, Morrisons and maybe Whedons aren't even really worth reading. I could read his run over and over again as the X-Men and New Mutants always felt more like actual people than cardboard super heroes that they written as later down the line.

I also loved the Outback X-Men days as well. That time in their history always felt a bit more edgy and crazy than the other stuff.

@cattlebattle: I feel u, I didnt really follow writers but artists, being a artist myself if the art sucks I dont read it, I love jim lee, Silvestre, joe maderiura, andy kubert, I liked arthur adam too, I love Scott campbell too but this isnt about ,Gen13 but im learning the writers do have a important job of developing the characters, I think Claremont should come back, or at least get a writer who has followed them enough to be able to continue the characters as they grow, Morrison Emma Frost is different then the bland emma of today, and pyslocke is nothing like the pyslocke in acts of vengence or the omega red story im xmen 5 -8

Yeah, I am a graphic artist and illustrator myself, so I know what your talking about with the art, though I do like several of the artists throughout the 90s and 2000s, guys like Portacio, Bachalo and Larocca, but its just a shame the writing isn't as engaging.

I honestly don't think Claremont can ever come back successfully, his style doesn't fit the current format of story telling and a lot of the characters he created and developed have changed far too much and he always tries to do something with them that he wanted to do 25 years ago and fans usually hate it. The best thing I could ever see happening for him is becomes the the producer on an X-Men show of some sort or have him be the editor in charge of the X-related titles and give him plotting duties, just have him as the driving force with younger writers who actually care for the characters and want to do different things.

@cattlebattle: I agree, cuz somewhere Xmen is lackin in the books, I buy them and eventually read them, but I remember before onslaught I would read them in the store, buy it read it again in the car, Gen X was good until u found out who penance was and M secrets, I believe xmen knew how to capturw peoples attention back n the day, the fact they made jubilee a vampire shows a huge sign of desperation