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#1 Posted by rodwell (86 posts) - - Show Bio

I just got marvel unlimted (so good) and I've just read new mutants (2003) 1-13 and new x-men 1-15. This was for 2 reasons firstly I wanted to learn more about these mutants who are in the current x-men series and secondly the feature in house of m so I wanted to know more. My gosh what a run, very soap opera with lots of relationships and teen dramas, but I love it. Never knew hellion had a background as a "bad boy". And it was really cool to see elixir origin as I had read about him in x-force 2006). Can't believe he had a thing with wolfsbane. Anyways great series. May skip the house of m arc and move onto Kyle and yost run as I hear good things about that. What are your thoughts on this series?

#2 Posted by Koays (3055 posts) - - Show Bio

My thoughts:

1. A level of drama that was both deeper then the standard X - books of the time and a level that is somewhat absent in today's titles

2. A series that new what it was about but would really be forgotten with either the pre or post Kyle and Yost elements. ..which are both vastly different and necessary for the characters to grow into the fan favorites that they are now. Since we their journey from new mutants (pun) to X-men, something glossed over by other titles. It's a classic

3. And I cannot stress this enough.....SURGE!!!!!

#3 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1096 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Academy X & New X-Men... House of M story was fun, got to see some of the New X-Men out of their atmosphere, kind of cool concept to see their alternate reality counterparts. As for Kyle and Yost in their five volume New X-Men run, please read them! They are amazing X-Books and like Koays mentioned you see the transformation from new mutant to x-men... really great books and it makes you appreciate these awesome characters!

#4 Posted by Ms-Lola (5153 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish they would bring something like this back.

#5 Posted by rodwell (86 posts) - - Show Bio

@illyanarasputin: ok im gonna read them, especially as I want to learn more about these characters.

p.s. magik in bendis run is my fav character at the moment

#6 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1096 posts) - - Show Bio

@rodwell: Haha, awesome. & Yeah Magik is pretty well written in Bendis' run, I'm glad they;re keeping her around and she's shiny as a star character.

#7 Posted by rodwell (86 posts) - - Show Bio

@illyanarasputin: I think she has just had so many cool moments that I love, to name a few. Love the art or her in an early issue when she chops off a sentinels head. Love another issue when she turns to Benjamin Deeds (i think) who has just given her the eye and she says dont even think about it. Love the scene when she is with strange and starts to fall asleep, I lol when I read that. Love the way she talked to demons when she was dark child in the limbo arc, really showing whos the boss. Also in battle of the atom if I can remember correctly she was the one who took down most of the brotherhood, or at least played a big part of it. She just has some really good one liners. Do you have any fav moments of her?

#8 Posted by AwesomePerson (1597 posts) - - Show Bio

@rodwell: Magik's my fave in the Uncanny team!!!!

There was this one part in one of the issues for Uncanny where Tempus and the Stepford Cuckoos come into her room and she says something like: Come in her again and I'll turn you into frogs. Temps and the cuckoos don't believe her and she says that she can do it but the hard part will be turning them back again! LOL

#9 Posted by rodwell (86 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by Squares (8397 posts) - - Show Bio

@ms-lola said:

I wish they would bring something like this back.

I don't see why they haven't, honestly.

#11 Posted by rodwell (86 posts) - - Show Bio
@squares said:

@ms-lola said:

I wish they would bring something like this back.

I don't see why they haven't, honestly.

I think wolverine and the x-men is supposed to be the teen school book like these were, although it doesn't feel the same. What do you think?

#12 Posted by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

New X-Men: Academy X was the book to bring me back to X-Men full time... I was floating around reading different books here and there from different publishers, but this series is what reeled me back in. I loved all of the deep relationships, well-developed characters, and endless drama and guilt... it was the perfect X-book in my opinion. And now what do we have?? Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways.

I want to see the next step in evolution for these characters... Let them form their own team and go off on adventures and explorations as the next generation. G-d knows they've had enough schooling.

#13 Posted by rodwell (86 posts) - - Show Bio

New X-Men: Academy X was the book to bring me back to X-Men full time... I was floating around reading different books here and there from different publishers, but this series is what reeled me back in. I loved all of the deep relationships, well-developed characters, and endless drama and guilt... it was the perfect X-book in my opinion. And now what do we have?? Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways.

I want to see the next step in evolution for these characters... Let them form their own team and go off on adventures and explorations as the next generation. G-d knows they've had enough schooling.

Strong words on Watxm, i agree with the fact that a lot of the characters are background characters, and now that i have been thinking about it i just dont view them to be characters that will grow up to be x-men. There is too much character development needed, and i dont think its possible as funny and as funny looking as people like broo and shark girl are there is no way they are going to become x-men.

As for this group to be the next generation, maybe that will be the direction the current x-men series will take. This series is using them almost as a backup support team to storms group.

#14 Posted by HAWK2916 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish we could get it back. It was better than the main stream books at the time and would imo run circles around what we currently have. Some wonder why i hate Aaron's run and Latour's mess right now and I say look no further than this series. At least thats one reason

#15 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

New X-Men: Academy X was the book to bring me back to X-Men full time... I was floating around reading different books here and there from different publishers, but this series is what reeled me back in. I loved all of the deep relationships, well-developed characters, and endless drama and guilt... it was the perfect X-book in my opinion. And now what do we have?? Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways.

Disagree.

1. While Aaron's WatX-men was mostly not that great, it wasn't all bad either and Latour's book has been mostly pretty great so far.

2. The main cast of Latour's Wolverine & the X-Men has mostly been Quire, Oya, Storm, and Wolverine, with Armor, Eye-boy, Doop, and a bunch of the New X-Men. So other than giving Armor, Oya, and Eye-boy some page time, it's mostly a pretty seasoned lineup.

3. At least half of the characters that people associate with New X-Men at this point were background characters for at least a few years before they were given focus in that book and won people's hearts. Any character can be good and any character can be fodder, especially when they're new; I really don't see what makes the new characters in WatX-men any different from what the New X-men were when they were first introduced.

#16 Posted by Ms-Lola (5153 posts) - - Show Bio

@rodwell said:
@squares said:

@ms-lola said:

I wish they would bring something like this back.

I don't see why they haven't, honestly.

I think wolverine and the x-men is supposed to be the teen school book like these were, although it doesn't feel the same. What do you think?

Wolverine and the X-Men doesn't cut it. I'm not reading it, but the first few issues that I did, it had more to do with the students' interaction with the older X-Men than amongst themselves. I would like to see different teams again. And a distinction between younger students and older.

#17 Edited by adamTRMM (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

It's hard to explain, but K/Y certainly used some dark arts while writing this thing and turned me into a total addict while reading just the second issue of their run!

#18 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1096 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: Agreed!

I don't know WaTX just doesn't have a strong pull - I could careless about these students that are written in this book. When characters like Icarus, Wallflower, heck even Tag died it was heartbreaking and I felt like I lost a genuine character that I began to care for. Even though WaTX students have been with us for quite some time now if any of them died I don't think I would care to be honest. Most of them are written poorly, and none of them are deep characters that I for one, could care for.

#19 Posted by Koays (3055 posts) - - Show Bio

I've talked to people who don't like the pre K/Y stuff and I c an compare that to WatX- men. If you didn't ca re about their personal issues o.r the adjustment to a weird mutant school you weren't going to like the series until something big changed the entire tone of the book.

If WatX-men had a story arc like Childhood ' s End (not exactly the same but with similar importance) it would Increase the overall opinion of the current stuff because it would build interest in who they were and how things were prior to the change because it would be important instead of shrug worthy like now

#20 Edited by adamTRMM (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know WaTX just doesn't have a strong pull - I could careless about these students that are written in this book. When characters like Icarus, Wallflower, heck even Tag died it was heartbreaking and I felt like I lost a genuine character that I began to care for. Even though WaTX students have been with us for quite some time now if any of them died I don't think I would care to be honest. Most of them are written poorly, and none of them are deep characters that I for one, could care for.

I'll tell you more, the only good thing they can bring to the story is to actually die. And be replaced by NXM, who already know how to deal with that immense weight on their shoulders. B)

#21 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1096 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Totally agreed, but the fact of the matter is, it was the writing that K/Y created and the characters - the WaTX cast just doesn't have that - and I fear they never will! I just want to see my NXM back on the pages of the X-Books... Too many great opportunities to be wasted on empty plots.

#22 Posted by Squares (8397 posts) - - Show Bio

New X-Men: Academy X was the book to bring me back to X-Men full time... I was floating around reading different books here and there from different publishers, but this series is what reeled me back in. I loved all of the deep relationships, well-developed characters, and endless drama and guilt... it was the perfect X-book in my opinion. And now what do we have?? Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways.

I want to see the next step in evolution for these characters... Let them form their own team and go off on adventures and explorations as the next generation. G-d knows they've had enough schooling.

See, I can agree WatX(m?) is crap, but it's the awful writing and genuinely horrible execution of said ideas that made it horrible.

#23 Edited by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

@rodwell said:

@papad1992 said:

New X-Men: Academy X was the book to bring me back to X-Men full time... I was floating around reading different books here and there from different publishers, but this series is what reeled me back in. I loved all of the deep relationships, well-developed characters, and endless drama and guilt... it was the perfect X-book in my opinion. And now what do we have?? Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways.

I want to see the next step in evolution for these characters... Let them form their own team and go off on adventures and explorations as the next generation. G-d knows they've had enough schooling.

Strong words on Watxm, i agree with the fact that a lot of the characters are background characters, and now that i have been thinking about it i just dont view them to be characters that will grow up to be x-men. There is too much character development needed, and i dont think its possible as funny and as funny looking as people like broo and shark girl are there is no way they are going to become x-men.

As for this group to be the next generation, maybe that will be the direction the current x-men series will take. This series is using them almost as a backup support team to storms group.

Thank you... My point exactly!

#24 Edited by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992 said:

New X-Men: Academy X was the book to bring me back to X-Men full time... I was floating around reading different books here and there from different publishers, but this series is what reeled me back in. I loved all of the deep relationships, well-developed characters, and endless drama and guilt... it was the perfect X-book in my opinion. And now what do we have?? Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways.

Disagree.

1. While Aaron's WatX-men was mostly not that great, it wasn't all bad either and Latour's book has been mostly pretty great so far.

2. The main cast of Latour's Wolverine & the X-Men has mostly been Quire, Oya, Storm, and Wolverine, with Armor, Eye-boy, Doop, and a bunch of the New X-Men. So other than giving Armor, Oya, and Eye-boy some page time, it's mostly a pretty seasoned lineup.

3. At least half of the characters that people associate with New X-Men at this point were background characters for at least a few years before they were given focus in that book and won people's hearts. Any character can be good and any character can be fodder, especially when they're new; I really don't see what makes the new characters in WatX-men any different from what the New X-men were when they were first introduced.

Those New X-Men characters became so loved because of their intense depth-driven characterization. They endured such development from watching their depowered classmates get blown-up right in front of them to nearly escaping the grasps of a mutant-hungry Predator X to enduring the harsh environment of Limbo and the Darkchilde. What can be said of these "new" x-characters that have been introduced? The New X-Men's characterization evolved from many stories and issue-to-issue development, while these newer characters have had this WaTXM book for awhile now and nothing significant has occurred to make me fall completely and utterly in love or enthralled by their characters. The writing has been transparent and lack-lusting since its inception. If anything, Quire has stepped up to the plate, evolved into a pretty cool character and Genesis has always interested me, but that's it. Those two character's weren't even introduced in WaTXM.

@squares said:

@papad1992 said:

New X-Men: Academy X was the book to bring me back to X-Men full time... I was floating around reading different books here and there from different publishers, but this series is what reeled me back in. I loved all of the deep relationships, well-developed characters, and endless drama and guilt... it was the perfect X-book in my opinion. And now what do we have?? Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways.

I want to see the next step in evolution for these characters... Let them form their own team and go off on adventures and explorations as the next generation. G-d knows they've had enough schooling.

See, I can agree WatX(m?) is crap, but it's the awful writing and genuinely horrible execution of said ideas that made it horrible.

Exactly... I'm glad you agree. The book is crap and has been crap since the beginning. Nothing memorable or worth mentioning has come forth from that book. The writing is horrendous, the artwork is too childish, and the characters are too transparent and forgetable.

#25 Posted by Koays (3055 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Totally agreed, but the fact of the matter is, it was the writing that K/Y created and the characters - the WaTX cast just doesn't have that - and I fear they never will! I just want to see my NXM back on the pages of the X-Books... Too many great opportunities to be wasted on empty plots.

Agreed, I've never disliked the newer characters for their powers or appearances but i have very little reason to defend their critics because they have so little actual "character" beyond vague personality types and we know little to nothing about them. I've figured a book featuring the established New X-Men and the WatX-Men cast could at least bring some personality to the book, but right now every plot has zero meaning because there's nothing worth following even if they had the best writing since there are very few realized student characters.

#26 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

2. The main cast of Latour's Wolverine & the X-Men has mostly been Quire, Oya, Storm, and Wolverine, with Armor, Eye-boy, Doop, and a bunch of the New X-Men. So other than giving Armor, Oya, and Eye-boy some page time, it's mostly a pretty seasoned lineup.

3. At least half of the characters that people associate with New X-Men at this point were background characters for at least a few years before they were given focus in that book and won people's hearts. Any character can be good and any character can be fodder, especially when they're new; I really don't see what makes the new characters in WatX-men any different from what the New X-men were when they were first introduced.

Those New X-Men characters became so loved because of their intense depth-driven characterization. They endured such development from watching their depowered classmates get blown-up right in front of them to nearly escaping the grasps of a mutant-hungry Predator X to enduring the harsh environment of Limbo and the Darkchilde.

yeah, so the New X-Men became fan-favorites by being in good stories in their own series; I get that, I did read those stories too. That doesn't counter my point that most of them were mostly colorful background characters, with mostly derivative powers, when they were first introduced. My point is just that it took being the stars of their own book to be developed into what we like about them now, but prior to that, they weren't any different than the characters who've been introduced at the new school.

What can be said of these "new" x-characters that have been introduced? The New X-Men's characterization evolved from many stories and issue-to-issue development, while these newer characters have had this WaTXM book for awhile now and nothing significant has occurred to make me fall completely and utterly in love or enthralled by their characters. The writing has been transparent and lack-lusting since its inception. If anything, Quire has stepped up to the plate, evolved into a pretty cool character and Genesis has always interested me, but that's it. Those two character's weren't even introduced in WaTXM.

sure, but then when you say "Wolverine and the X-Men is crap, always has been always will be because their characters, except for a couple, are all transparent canonfodder and background throw-aways." who are you even talking about?

Quire, Oya, Genesis, and Broo all appeared before the first WatX-men book, and even if that book wasn't that good, most of them have been developed in the few years since then.

Sure there's been some new characters added as supporting cast members who have yet to be fully developed, but how is Eye Boy or Nature Girl really any different than characters like Anole or Pixie? Anole and Pixie were both introduced in 2003 as colorful background characters, but neither of them were anything more than that until 2007's Quest For Magik storyline. That's 4 years of being weird looking background characters before being given staring roles.

Eye Boy's only been around for a year (and is already starting to be pretty interesting, in my opinion), and Nature Girl's only been in 5 or 6 issues and has yet to speak. There's nothing intrinsically less interesting about the characters just because they haven't been made into central characters right away. I'm not saying that you should like WatX-men if you don't, I'm just saying that there's nothing any more or less interesting about the characters themselves.

I mean, people put New X-men up on this pillar for it's quality characterization, but that book was full of so-called "cannon fodder"; I mean, that's part of what made it so tragic, right? That busload of mostly background characters that lost their powers and got blown up may have added some tragedy to the surviving characters' stories, but it also shows how many characters were floating around the book that nobody really cared about to begin with, aka, fodder.

#27 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3656 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I have to say that I blame Marvel's lack of editorial oversight for the "cannon fodder" mess. Morrison created a bunch of new characters, Marvel wanted to return to the status quo where mutants (specifically the X-Men) were special, so the new characters had to go. In the wake of removing those characters, they re-killed a long running member of the team (who is one of the members that somewhat needs to be on a lineup to give it legitimacy as an X-Men team), demolished a longtime related character (Scarlet Witch hasn't recovered and I'm starting to think that she ever will without a substantial reboot - accidental genocide, mental instability, and killing teammates is a very big hurdle for a character to recover from), and the Avengers, despite having a few good storylines, have been limping along since Disassembled). Thematically, the Marvel line as a whole seems to be messy, but X-Men still continues to create cannon fodder characters (remember the Five Lights, and why they were supposed to matter?).

The lack of cohesion is very off-putting, and the mega events really aren't helping.

#28 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to say that I blame Marvel's lack of editorial oversight for the "cannon fodder" mess. Morrison created a bunch of new characters, Marvel wanted to return to the status quo where mutants (specifically the X-Men) were special, so the new characters had to go.

I don't know.. by the time of the Decimation there were almost 50 named students at the school, and Morrison had only contributed about half a dozen of those. Angel and Beak were written out, Dust and the Cuckoos remained, Quire seemed to be forgotten about completely, but most of the characters were introduced by other writers. I'm not saying you're wrong about it being an editorial mandate, but even after the Decimation there were more named characters at the school than when Morrison was writing.

In the wake of removing those characters, they re-killed a long running member of the team (who is one of the members that somewhat needs to be on a lineup to give it legitimacy as an X-Men team),

I don't know who you mean by this^

... demolished a longtime related character (Scarlet Witch hasn't recovered and I'm starting to think that she ever will without a substantial reboot - accidental genocide, mental instability, and killing teammates is a very big hurdle for a character to recover from),

the Decimation wasn't genocide, what happened on Genosha was genocide. You may be right about the Scarlet Witch being irredeemable, but it's not like she was ever the greatest hero to begin with. House of M was kind of the inevitable outcome of a bomb that had been ticking for decades.

and the Avengers, despite having a few good storylines, have been limping along since Disassembled).

have to disagree with this statement. While the Avengers have had plenty of weak runs, I'd argue they've had more good runs in the 10 years since Disassembled than they had in the 20 years leading up to it, because they finally did break away from the status quo.

Thematically, the Marvel line as a whole seems to be messy, but X-Men still continues to create cannon fodder characters (remember the Five Lights, and why they were supposed to matter?).

yeah, I see what you mean..

my point was really that the X-men as an entity have been in a constant state of accumulating background characters since at least 1986 (with X-Factor), because that's sort of part of what their mission is: to rescue and provide training to mutants. Not every mutant they rescue or train needs to be a main character to add something interesting to the story.

You mention the 5 Lights, and they even got their own book. And, no, there wasn't really anything relevant about them in the end, but some of them were interesting explorations of what having different weird powers might be like. I can tell there's just some fans who aren't interested in that more sci-fi element of the stories, but something I've personally always liked about the X-men is that they do have stories like that. That they have characters like Zero and Primal, even if they aren't important characters, because they're still interesting takes on what being a mutant could mean.

And sometimes characters that seem inconsequential at first end up becoming great characters anyway. I mean, Dust was just another tragic mutant that the X-men rescued in New X-Men (vol.1), but then she went on to be a beloved central character in New X-Men (vol.2).

Eye Boy may have started out as a literal sight gag, but the potential to explore a distinct mutant perception actually makes him interesting anyway, and it's not like he's off to a bad start. Even being a minor character in some not-very-good stories, he's still been more distinct and compelling than most of the New X-men were in their first year.

Either way, having a revolving door of colorful background characters has been the norm for more X-men comics than it hasn't (even in the 80's they had the Morlocks and the New Mutants, who, if you weren't reading The New Mutants, were just background characters), enough so that I guess I've always just considered it part of the theme.

#29 Posted by HAWK2916 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

Speaking of Morlocks, Most of the characters in WATX seem to be perfect for that.

Again just reading part of aaron's run as well as Latour's makes me miss New Xmen even more. And frankly it just irritates me to no end that this is now considered acceptable and defended by some on message boards

#30 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio
@hawk2916 said:

Speaking of Morlocks, Most of the characters in WATX seem to be perfect for that.

Again just reading part of aaron's run as well as Latour's makes me miss New Xmen even more. And frankly it just irritates me to no end that this is now considered acceptable and defended by some on message boards

it irritates you that people find worth in things that you don't?

I get that lots of people miss the New X-Men, but that you personally liked that book more than WatX-men doesn't in itself make WatX-men objectively bad. People just like different things.

#31 Posted by HAWK2916 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: The irritation is with Marvel trying to push it off as great writing and acting as if its groundbreaking stories. Its not a shot at people. So no need for anyone to take offense.What irritates me with people is that at times, when I state an opinion of mine then some try to tell me why I shouldn't feel that way or take it as a personal shot as if they are the actual writer or are sleeping with him.

On different occasions, I've pointed out several reasons why WATX is bad and none of them had to do with my personal preference. By and large though most people Ive talked with feel that WATX is an inferior book.

I do find it hilarious that you felt the need to try to come on here and speak as if i dont have common sense though.

#32 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

@oldnightcrawler: The irritation is with Marvel trying to push it off as great writing and acting as if its groundbreaking stories. Its not a shot at people. So no need for anyone to take offense.What irritates me with people is that at times, when I state an opinion of mine then some try to tell me why I shouldn't feel that way or take it as a personal shot as if they are the actual writer or are sleeping with him.

okay, I was confused because you said "it just irritates me to no end that this is now considered acceptable and defended", which does make it sound like you had a problem with other people having opinions you don't share. So, while I don't recall anyone telling you that you shouldn't have the opinions you do, it did seem like you were implying that others shouldn't have the opinions they have.

See how it seems like that?

On different occasions, I've pointed out several reasons why WATX is bad and none of them had to do with my personal preference. By and large though most people Ive talked with feel that WATX is an inferior book.

whether your opinion is popular or not I can't say, but it doesn't make it an objective truth either way.

If WatX-men were comparable to any other book, then you could make some argument based on how it's inferior to that or those book(s), but I don't know of any other book that does what it does, so there's really no way to objectively qualify it as inferior to anything, other than by means of personal preference.

The example you gave earlier about how "just reading part of aaron's run as well as Latour's makes me miss New Xmen even more" seems to compare WatX-men to New X-Men; but while the setting and themes of the books may be similar, almost nothing else about the two is. It would be like if I said reading X-Force made me miss Excalibur; there's just no reason to compare them.

I do find it hilarious that you felt the need to try to come on here and speak as if i dont have common sense though.

probably best not to take it personally :v

#33 Edited by HAWK2916 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Not really no I dont see how it seems like that. Of course you can try and twist anything to make it fit your arguments which is fine.

Look if you're a fan of Watx then good for you. But dont act like theres no criticism thats valid at all. I realize that as fans of a particular book at times we tend to try and dismiss every opinion contrary to our own but really its nothing personal, just a different opinion. I dont see WATX as some groundbreaking never-seen-before, incomparable book. Its a book that focuses on the students which has been done before and I see it as inferior in that comparison as a well as inm any others which again Ive mentioned before. Thats my opinion not a knock on those who like it, so theres nothing to try to defend.

By the way. I said I found it funny. I dont take it personally at all. Its just opinions which are like a**holes, everybody has one.lol

#34 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

Not really no I dont see how it seems like that. Of course you can try and twist anything to make it fit your arguments which is fine.

so I'm guessing you don't see how this is dismissive either then?

Look if you're a fan of Watx then good for you. But dont act like theres no criticism thats valid at all.

it wasn't my point that that (or any) book is beyond criticism (in fact, Aaron's run especially was one of the books I was most critical of in the last few years), it was just that I thought your basis for criticism was, mm.. unfair? Neither volume of WatX-men has really been anything like New X-Men, (or Generation X, or New Mutants), despite the conceit of the premise. It's not really a student book, not like those others were. It's like half regular X-men, a few of the students, and a wacky supporting cast.

This may just be my opinion, but I think it would be more fair to compare it to a book like the original Excalibur, it would still be inferior, but it would be a more fair comparison. Either way, to me it's just not the same kind of book as New X-men. That doesn't mean I think it's better, or even as good in this case. I just don't see it as comparable to a book with a whole new cast, personality, tone, etc.. like most student books tend to be, that's all.

Books like New X-men were all interesting new takes on the X-men's integral themes of teen drama, adventure, coming of age, and outsider youth culture, WatX-men has never been that, not really.

#35 Posted by HAWK2916 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Disagree to agree. I still say that WATX is an inferior book to most anything out there. Weak plots, poor character development, not capturing the voice or having a sense of the characters as well as having them act out of character and too much silliness. These are just a few things that i've previously mentioned that make this book distasteful at least to me. There are plenty more.

But instead of being sidetracked in endless debate for no other reason than arguing just for the hell of it, I thought the Academy X new Xmen was one of the better series period and definitely highly ranked as far as the student books go. I know it had a long run but there seemed to be plenty more stories that could have been told and it felt like it ended too soon, at least for me. I really wish we could get it back.

#36 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

@oldnightcrawler: Disagree to agree. I still say that WATX is an inferior book to most anything out there. Weak plots, poor character development, not capturing the voice or having a sense of the characters as well as having them act out of character and too much silliness. These are just a few things that i've previously mentioned that make this book distasteful at least to me. There are plenty more.

see, while I can appreciate all of those as criticisms, some of them are pretty subjective.

Especially the idea that there's "too much silliness", which is a matter of personal sensibility. That is, while I don't disagree that the book(s) is/are pretty silly, that's obviously meant to be at least part the point, and for many readers wouldn't really be a criticism in itself, because it would be part of what made the book appealing to them in the first place.

I'm not saying that going for a sillier tone is a justification for the sloppy, weak, and generally inconsistent stories put forth in Aaron's book, but it's not really a criticism in itself so much as it's just descriptive of the style of stories he was telling. As I mentioned before, Excalibur and lots of other X-men related books have been just as silly as WatX-men and still been better books overall.

But instead of being sidetracked in endless debate for no other reason than arguing just for the hell of it, I thought the Academy X new Xmen was one of the better series period and definitely highly ranked as far as the student books go. I know it had a long run but there seemed to be plenty more stories that could have been told and it felt like it ended too soon, at least for me. I really wish we could get it back.

Personally I didn't think it was really anything special until the second half, around Childhood's End, which eventually made me appreciate the book and what the characters had been up to that point as being distinct. Then again, I didn't read it until I was 30, so it seems likely I would have more of a connection to the team/book if I'd grown up with it; I can see how I probably wasn't the target audience starting out (the way I would have been for Gen.X, say).

And though it does seem a bit of a shame in retrospect that it didn't get the solid 7-year stretch that both The New Mutants and Generation X got, it is worth noting that both of those books got pretty weak in their last few years, and many of the characters forgotten about pretty quickly as new books replaced them. At least New X-men ended at a high point in it's creative quality, with several of the characters remaining central to the stories in the main books even after it was gone.

Though the characters may be mostly relegated to supporting cast status at the moment, I think it's fair to say they established a more immediate legacy than their predecessors because of the strength of their book when it ended; and while I wouldn't mind seeing more of them in more central roles, it doesn't bother me especially because not only did I not have the connection to them that others had, but I also feel fairly confident we haven't seen the last of them.

..not that I expect that to change your feelings on the subject, just those are mine.

#37 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7306 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

@oldnightcrawler:

But instead of being sidetracked in endless debate for no other reason than arguing just for the hell of it, I thought the Academy X new Xmen was one of the better series period and definitely highly ranked as far as the student books go. I know it had a long run but there seemed to be plenty more stories that could have been told and it felt like it ended too soon, at least for me. I really wish we could get it back.

Seriously.

I honestly hope that one day we do. And it should be a title that incorporates the prominent characters of all next-gen-esque X-Men characters, as in those from the New Mutants, the X-Terminators, Gen X and etc.

#38 Posted by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: You bring up some valid points but still, those New X-Men characters flourished due to good writing and great stories. Quire and Genesis I gave the exception to, and Oya and Broo are characters I can't stand, along with Shark Girl, Sprite, and all of those other transparent characters. They are not enticing, not even remotely interesting. Characters like Anole and Pixie played the roles of background fillers since their inception but were never cannon fodder. They were developed into becoming amazing characters full of depth, perspective, and meaning. They continued along their paths of development throughout two books while these newer characters have done nothing but fill the background and act as cannon fodder. It's all due to bad writing, the characters represent and mirror what the writers put into them. That's why they're boring, exhausting, and dull.

#39 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: You bring up some valid points but still, those New X-Men characters flourished due to good writing and great stories. Quire and Genesis I gave the exception to, and Oya and Broo are characters I can't stand, along with Shark Girl, Sprite, and all of those other transparent characters. They are not enticing, not even remotely interesting. Characters like Anole and Pixie played the roles of background fillers since their inception but were never cannon fodder. They were developed into becoming amazing characters full of depth, perspective, and meaning. They continued along their paths of development throughout two books while these newer characters have done nothing but fill the background and act as cannon fodder. It's all due to bad writing, the characters represent and mirror what the writers put into them. That's why they're boring, exhausting, and dull.

I get that, I just don't think that makes them any different than what most of the New X-men were at first.

With the exception of Dust (who had been around longer) and maybe Surge, most of the New X-men were Sprites and Shark-girls until Childhood's End. And, while I don't have any particular attachment to most of Aaron's characters, most of them haven't been around that long or written by anyone but him, both of which made all the difference for the New X-men, who actually had their own book to be developed in.

#40 Posted by DarkDay (634 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna be that guy. We should have a Nation X/A + X style team up mini-series that explores the current Gen. of young X-men. I mention A+X only because I think the play we could make with the title would be more experienced young X-man teams up with newer young X-man. It could have a regular writer and artist or it could play musical chairs. Normally I'm not a fan of that sort of thing because you tend to get mediocre stories out of different writers all the time, but I feel like restricting the events to a single issue in the plus vein of things it would give writers a chance to develop characters that need developing while at the same time getting some conspicuously absent fan favorites the screen time that they sorely need.

I get the feeling that lately Marvel as a whole just really hasn't known want to do with any of their teen heroes and this isn't a problem unique only to the X-Men. The Young Avengers, Avengers Academy, The Initiative, The Runaways...the list goes on and Marvel has a backlog of young heroes like you wouldn't believe. I feel like making a few minis among the different brands could be a good way of testing the waters and character building. I know the true test of rather something like this is honestly going to be how much writing talent Marvel is actually willing to put behind it, but I feel like it would be an interesting attempt and if things started going well Marvel would have more bankable characters that they could work out into the Marvel U at large. I feel like that is win-win.

#41 Posted by Koays (3055 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday said:

I'm gonna be that guy. We should have a Nation X/A + X style team up mini-series that explores the current Gen. of young X-men. I mention A+X only because I think the play we could make with the title would be more experienced young X-man teams up with newer young X-man. It could have a regular writer and artist or it could play musical chairs. Normally I'm not a fan of that sort of thing because you tend to get mediocre stories out of different writers all the time, but I feel like restricting the events to a single issue in the plus vein of things it would give writers a chance to develop characters that need developing while at the same time getting some conspicuously absent fan favorites the screen time that they sorely need.

I've been saying something similar. We've got so many X-Men all over the place that we should have a sort of "X-Men World" book. Book focusing on a mix of X-characters who don't normally team up and aren't major parts of another book and following two or three of these small groups at a time. That way we could get a more rounded cast (in terms of frequently used characters) then say "Amazing X-Men" has, and even possibly see characters from X-Force or Factor crossover with say Uncanny without there being a Major event behind it.

#42 Posted by DarkDay (634 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

@darkday said:

I'm gonna be that guy. We should have a Nation X/A + X style team up mini-series that explores the current Gen. of young X-men. I mention A+X only because I think the play we could make with the title would be more experienced young X-man teams up with newer young X-man. It could have a regular writer and artist or it could play musical chairs. Normally I'm not a fan of that sort of thing because you tend to get mediocre stories out of different writers all the time, but I feel like restricting the events to a single issue in the plus vein of things it would give writers a chance to develop characters that need developing while at the same time getting some conspicuously absent fan favorites the screen time that they sorely need.

I've been saying something similar. We've got so many X-Men all over the place that we should have a sort of "X-Men World" book. Book focusing on a mix of X-characters who don't normally team up and aren't major parts of another book and following two or three of these small groups at a time. That way we could get a more rounded cast (in terms of frequently used characters) then say "Amazing X-Men" has, and even possibly see characters from X-Force or Factor crossover with say Uncanny without there being a Major event behind it.

I would definitely read that. And honestly it was that sort of feel to witch I mentioned Nation X, because it was that book for a bit. It wasn't always very well focused and not all the stories were good, but it was sort of the general "see what the X-Men are up to book". Honestly, I've missed that.

I also miss the not so dire consequences X-stories and I feel like the X-Men feel like they are carrying more event fatigue than any other group in comics at the moment. You could make the argument that the Avengers have just as many crossovers going, and its probably true, but the X-Men don't seem to get any time to recover and have interesting team runs, which I feel is worst now because of the split nature of mutantkind at the moment as the X-Men have become X-Men enemies... Basically crises lose their punch if you don't have any breathing room and I think the X-books might be on the edge of that cliff.

#43 Posted by HAWK2916 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

Less events and status quo changes definitely would not be a bad thing

#44 Posted by Koays (3055 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday: 100% agree. Though Nation X wasn't perfect...and honestly could've fixed the alot of the problems with character use from that era.... It has the character interactions and the variety that is missing from X-Men in the current back to back event environment that doesn't leave room for exploring anything but a select cast. I mean did anyone else know Chamber was at the JGS? He is, but we'll never see a character like him because even A and B listers like Iceman can't find time to have development between events despite being seen across multiple books.

And if their going to keep this current pattern, then at least they can give us some nice character pieces, even if it is just fluff.

@hawk2916: Agreed. Just when were' starting to recover from BotA(or heck AvX even), and just when it looks like the X-books are going to be able to tell some good stories or have good character stuff.....Will of Xavier AND Axis. Smh, my bet says Dazzler doesn't remember she was after Mystique until February....

#45 Edited by adamTRMM (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

With the exception of Dust (who had been around longer) and maybe Surge, most of the New X-men were Sprites and Shark-girls until Childhood's End. And, while I don't have any particular attachment to most of Aaron's characters, most of them haven't been around that long or written by anyone but him, both of which made all the difference for the New X-men, who actually had their own book to be developed in.

Did you read pre-K/Y NXM? New Mutants v.2 and the first 20 issues of Academy X? Because, man you're wrong. They started being developed since their very first appearance, unlike those unimaginative abominations (sprite, shark, eye etc) that are remaining redundant backgrounds. Even those who died are the better characters with their limited appearances, because of those pre-K/Y developments. I really don't understand why would you compare them at all.

Aaron's characters (and his other pets) had almost 50 issues of WATXM to be developed, just a little less than NXM.

#46 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:
  1. Did you read pre-K/Y NXM? New Mutants v.2 and the first 20 issues of Academy X?
  2. Because, man you're wrong. They started being developed since their very first appearance, unlike those unimaginative abominations (sprite, shark, eye etc) that are remaining redundant backgrounds. Even those who died are the better characters with their limited appearances, because of those pre-K/Y developments.
  3. I really don't understand why would you compare them at all.
  4. Aaron's characters (and his other pets) had almost 50 issues of WATXM to be developed, just a little less than NXM.

1. yep.

2. I disagree.

3. mostly because other people are comparing them. I think that while the New X-men were better, I think they were better because they were eventually developed in decent stories, not by design. The old students were as overrated as the new ones are underrated.

4. I don't really see that as comparable since WatX-men wasn't really the same type of book. New X-men, Accademy X, and even NMvol.2 were all books that featured the students as main characters, while WatX-men featured only a few students as main characters (mostly just Quire). It may have been about the school, in a general sense, but it was never about the students specifically, not like virtually every other student book has been.

#47 Edited by adamTRMM (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler:

yep.

Then you should know better ;)

I disagree.

Please give me an example.

mostly because other people are comparing them. I think that while the New X-men were better, I think they were better because they were eventually developed in decent stories, not by design. The old students were as overrated as the new ones are underrated.

This is my mistake of expression, yes they are comparable of course as a specific model of characters, but they're not comparable in terms of development, that's what I actually think is incomparable and like you said, it is not because of design. And you said they haven't have the time to be developed, this is not true hence almost 50 issues of WAXM, and you said NXM weren't developed until Childhood's End, which also incorrect since while New M. v.2 dealt mainly with introducing the characters (which is also pretty unfair if we think about Sofia, Elixir, Prodigy and Laurie), the 20 first issues of Academy X dealt with nothing but character development. Can you say this about Aaron's cast? Hell, the same 12 of New Mutants had a deeper character progression than 50 issues of Aaron's meh.

Overrated/underrated is an arbitrary choice that has little to do with actual quality, even if you like WAXM you can't really argue for it's factual superiority over NXM, it's just your personal preference.

4. I don't really see that as comparable since WatX-men wasn't really the same type of book. New X-men, Accademy X, and even NMvol.2 were all books that featured the students as main characters, while WatX-men featured only a few students as main characters (mostly just Quire). It may have been about the school, in a general sense, but it was never about the students specifically, not like virtually every other student book has been.

This is partially true, but let's not forget that its plots revolved around the Circus, students and youth in general. It's if I say that K/Y NXM wasn't wholly student book because Emma Frost had a lot of spotlight and sometimes even shined brighter than students themselves.

#48 Posted by DarkDay (634 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Agreed. I'd take fluff over nothing any day so long as the fluff has the potential to bring interesting character development. I think Marvel has forgotten that it doesn't always take a marketing boon to make a character a fan favorite. If we need an example, we can use Kitty Pryde. Kitty got really popular from just being developed over time and being a part of memorable stories. She hasn't really developed amazing new powers, they haven't had to make her super edgy and grim-dark (save for maybe her status as former Wolverine pupil and the baggage that comes with that) but still Kitty is awesome. I feel like if you find the right environment for any character they can flourish given decent writing and fan exposure. Most of that also isn't super expensive to finance so long as Marvel takes it slow.

#49 Posted by Koays (3055 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday: Yea. I think it's telling that Kitty was made through strong story telling and not through random events with covers. I sort of skimmed through alot of the early Kitty stories, and didn't like alot of her later ones even when she came back for X-Treme X-Men, but i became a fan of the character through her time as the focal point during Astonishing X-Men....it wasn't one event, but the growth of the character and strength of the story being told as a whole that made her a stand out for me. And because Marvel seems to be focusing on a strategy of Events, and "issue #1's" good story telling seems to be a acceptable loss.

#50 Posted by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio
@adamtrmm said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

With the exception of Dust (who had been around longer) and maybe Surge, most of the New X-men were Sprites and Shark-girls until Childhood's End. And, while I don't have any particular attachment to most of Aaron's characters, most of them haven't been around that long or written by anyone but him, both of which made all the difference for the New X-men, who actually had their own book to be developed in.

Did you read pre-K/Y NXM? New Mutants v.2 and the first 20 issues of Academy X? Because, man you're wrong. They started being developed since their very first appearance, unlike those unimaginative abominations (sprite, shark, eye etc) that are remaining redundant backgrounds. Even those who died are the better characters with their limited appearances, because of those pre-K/Y developments. I really don't understand why would you compare them at all.

Aaron's characters (and his other pets) had almost 50 issues of WATXM to be developed, just a little less than NXM.

THANK YOU adamtrmm!!!!!