More Jean Grey Knockoffs than Marvel knows what to do with..

We've got Young Jean, which is the closest we will get to actual Jean Grey. The Jean who is trying to make her own path-- which consists of a off and on again relationship with young Beast.. eh. Right now-- anything can happen with this one-- including Jean-Xorn...

We've got Maddie/Goblin Queen, who is a Jean clone-- who I actually like, if the writers actually decided to keep her around long enough for her to be relevant to the plot. IMO, things get super interesting anytime she is around. Everything since her debut to her first death, Uncanny X-men by Fraction, and XX-men. I'm glad her and Selene are alive again, but sad nobody is taking advantage of this.

Then we've got Rachel Grey. Where do I begin. I love Rachel-- no matter how inconstant she is written. However-- ALL these writers and NOBODY has given her a sensible moment with young Jean yet. TOTAL BS. Depending on who is writing Rachel, I do like her much more than Jean.

Then we got Hope. Who I cannot stand. It's like all the writers forgot that Rachel even existed for a while and we desperate for a Jean fix. And her role in AvX was beyond stupid. By far, my least favorite Jean-knockoff. MOVING ON---

Then we have FireStar who isn't exactly a Jean knock off. But the redhead with fire powers in the X-men sure does hit close to home sometimes.


Is it just me or do X-writers not know their X-history and keep popping out new Jean knock-offs instead of reading the past material??? Half the girls could've been merged into Rachel's story-line. Just. Sayin'
Who's your favorite? Who's your least favorite? DISCUSS!

You forgot some, Ultimate Jean Grey, AOA Jean Grey, Jean Grey of 161 (X-men Forever) to name a few.

Ultimate Jean > all Jeans.

Come at me now. No, wait a second. AoA Jean is also fine though the last AoA run was abysmal.

@adamtrmm: Everyone died at the end right?

The original Jean was there to look pretty and die every few years.

Teen Jean is annoying.

I don't like Maddie

Rachel is boring.

Hope is the worst.

Firestar is cool.

Siryn is cool.

Wolfsbane is okay when she stops whining/crying.

@mcklayn: Damn you! You quoted me before I could fix my incorrect use of 'their'. Now everyone will know I'm a flawed being.

@sprior93:

You know we could've figured the second we saw "edited".

@raunjisto:

And that wasn't the worst part.

@poisonfleur: when are they bringing real jean grey back 616/adult???????

i always thought maybe teen jean can get a x-men group together and find and hatch the jean grey phoenix egg to get her back or when teen jean goes back to her own timeline then the real jean grey can show up

im a jean grey fan but now i even got bored with teen jean

We already did, from like the first second of knowing you.

Im great with keeping her dead, just saying. I think we should start a petition for No more Jean !!

Whose with me!

Hell Yeah!

@invain: Thats two, COME ON GUYS we needz atleast 100!!

Teen Jean isn't a knock-off, she's still Jean Grey.

This is true, and Honestly like Rachel is a real character with good history, the daughter of Jean but still her own person. Thats like saying Cable is a Cyclops knock off lol

yeah, I basically agree..

..but Rachel still has pretty much the same powers as Jean, and took up both of her mantles (Marvel Girl and Phoenix). Knock-off might not be the right term, it's more like like how there's different generations of the Flash.

Yea Knock off is idk, degrading? Same power set sure, but so does Psylocke, QQ and no telling who else (at least for the most part) They took the same name but there is like 5 Robins for Batman and they are all unique and different characters not knock offs. So is there some connections, or some similarities but shes had enough character development and stories on her own she isn't a Knock off.

well, like the different Flashes or Robins, I do think Rachel was actually meant to replace Jean. I mean, the powers thing alone doesn't mean so much, because telepathy is just one of those signature power-sets X-men always have, but there weren't a lot of other telepaths at the time she was introduced to the team (and I don't think any of them had telekinesis), and she also took on the mantle and powers of the Phoenix, so there's that.

Knock off might not be the right word, but I do think of Rachel being to the X-men mythos like I think of James Rhodes to the Iron Man mythos, or something like that, because her story is by it's nature intrinsically linked to another character in a way that other X-men aren't.

@oldnightcrawler: I see that, just yea the word knock off i guess i dont like

I love Rachel most out of all of them. Even though her story is kinda convoluted I guess in some ways (not really) and represents what I think is wrong in Xmen and Marvel in general.

I like Hope more than Teen Jean who I do consider a knockoff and not the real Jean Grey.

Maddie is awesome but I hate the clone thing. I remember a fan fix that told a better origin for Maddie in fact it was one that would easily allow for a retcon. I want to do thread about altering origins and updating or altering stories and might include the particulars if I can remember them correctly.

Never been much of fan of the alternate reality stuff.

Love Siryn and don't consider her a Jean knockoff.

I can see Firestar being considered that but not really. She's OK though

Yea...I hate everything about this thread...

This idea that their is such thing as a "Jean Grey Knock off" implies that someone is imitating Jean or trying to trade off her likeness in a cheap way.

Rachel is a legacy character. What that means is that she's meant to be connected to Jean Grey's (and Cyclops') mythos and really should be considered a result of the X-Men stories (in that she was born from the flagship relationship of the team) rather then something put in to fill the Jean Grey role...which if you've ever read a Rachel Grey story you'll know she's nothing like her in terms of personality or use of powers.

Maddie is part of the Jean Grey mythos, she's almost as relevant to the character as the Phoenix is and is essentially her Venom or Bizzaro. The fact that Jean only faced off with her once sort of solidifies her independence from Jean since she has had a long and intricate history that doesn't involve Jean despit her background.

Hope is complicated...maybe you could've argued that she was a Jean Grey clone at first, but other then holding the phoenix and red hair they have about as much in common as QQ does with Jean. Hell the Phoenix isn't even relevant to Hope after she uses it, where as it forever shaped everyone else who possesed it. Maybe she is a clone, but i think she's far to unexplored to say that.

Firestar and Siryn??? By that logic Mary Jane Watson and Pepper Potts are also Jean Grey clones.

Teen Jean....as much as it rips and tears at my very soul to admit it....the concept behind the character is that she IS Jean Grey lost in time. So that's it. She's Jean. A horrible example of the character and of writing....but Jean nun the less.



Personally, as a Jean Grey fan it bugs me to read people saying we should keep adult OG Jean dead, since she's had two truly noteworthy stories centering around her which is more then most X-Characters have and yet no one wants to see the character return and given a strong voice within the team again...it disturbs to think people would rather see some less noteworthy characters get redefined, then to see a legendary character who has never truly been defined written about without an additional gimmick attached.

But all that said, it bugs me even more as a fan of Rachel, Maddie, Hope, Firestar and even Teen Jean to have it said that they could've been merged into one character as though their individual contributions are meaningless. Even Teen Jean who's story is cheapened on multiple angles by being a much younger version of the character we know, and by having her character arc shared by 4 teammates going through the same "futureshock" story is very much an independent and relevant character from any of these others as well as from adult/OG Jean Grey.

smh Now you all made me say something nice about Teen Jean, and not even take the time to threaten @sprior93 or fanboy over Rachel.....I hope your all ashamed of yourselves.

What happened with Hope ? All I know is she had a series with Cable

I never particularly liked Jean, but Rachel Grey would be my favourite.

@westfriesianman: Nah, her hair is purple.

I've liked Rachel since she debuted. Big fan of her character. Can't really lump random red heads into this group - Siryn, Wolfsbane, and Firestar's powers and personalities are distinct enough that I never had a problem distinguishing them.

As a Jean Grey fan, I think writers forget that she existed as a character without angst for decades.

Obligatory PotT image dump:

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Personally I think Hope's storyline could have been given to Rachel if the writers were smart. And probably more meaningful.
I also think a lot of Firestar's contribution's IN X-TITLES (not all Marvel comics) could have been given to Rachel.

I think if Marvel desperate for some Jean soooo baddly they really could have expanded more on Rachel & Maddie's storyline better to hang us over on our Jean fix.

Personally, I like Maddie and Rachel the best-- So I am biased. Even tho Maddie flat-out started as a Jean Grey ripp-off. Jean's first death was intended to be permanent and Maddie came along as Scott's new red-headed girlfriend who looks exactly like her. I thought her character got interesting when she got pregnant and everything moving forward.

As for Rachel-- under good writing she is her own character. Under bad writing she is Jean Grey-knockoff who avoids the real Jean anytime she happens to show up.

I also consider Hope a completely unnecessary character.


The reality about Teen Jean is-- She is 'the real Jean' so fans get their Jean fix while also keeping the real Jean dead. 2 birds, 1 stone.

Also-- Siryen has nothing to do with Jean aside from the fact they are both red-heads who are X-men.

As I said before Firestar isn't a knock-off, but does have considerable parallels

-Red-Hair
-X-men & X-teachers
-Similar Powers: Flight & Fire
-Betrayed by Emma Frost
-Both hate & both fought Emma Frost
-Both are close to Iceman
-Somewhat similar costumes.

Technically, Firestar's powers are actually fire-related via microwaves, whereas Jean's Phoenix flames are psionic in nature.

Yeah, no. I don't why people always think that the fire that the Phoenix emanates is actual fire....and this is not the first time I have seen people assume that either. The Phoenix isn't pyrokinetic, the fire is supposed to illustrate the use of her telekinetic powers and is just drawn as a flaming bird---a phoenix simulacrum---originally Jean would manifest it to compliment the nickname she gave herself, as did Rachel when she got her power upgrade. The later, when they had force that crappy retcon about the space avatar, the phoenix force became an avatar or whatever. The Phoenix doesn't control or use fire. If she did, she would have burned the crap out of a lot of people by now. Firestar isn't a pyrokinetic either, she generates radioactive energy.

Think of it like this.....the "fire" that Phoenix wields is no different from the Green Lanterns constructs. That is why I used to ,love in Excalibur when Rachel used to manifest flaming wings when she flew...it was just an aesthetic choice by Alan Davis that made her look more unique and badass.

Don't do that^ You know what I meant and understood my point.

Technically both of their powers are symbolic representations of their personalities, and both are symbolic of the fiery redhead trope; from that perspective, Poisonflower's not wrong to say they have similar powers.

amen but i would rather have any jean then no jean at all(likes it been 10yrs without her or 12 is u dont count teen jean))

@hopesummersforthefuture: Pardon me but I think that's the part of the problem. People would rather have a piss poor imitation or out of character interpretation of a character rather than letting that character stay gone until someone can write them correctly. I don't get that at all. Not jumping on you or anything but by this logic Jean could do anything and everyone would be OK and nothing is ever out of character for her. I can't get onboard with that

Haha not trying to be mean or do that. I really don't think they look similar. Firestar's costume and energy signature look very different from Jean's manifestation of the Phoenix Force's. To me, even Rachel's PF manifestation was quite distinct. And since I've followed Firestar for a while, I don't really thing they're histories really parallel each other so much as they have similarities. I had a similar issue in another thread a few weeks ago - I wasn't sure why anyone would think there was redundancy with the two characters being X-Men LOL. Maybe that was you I was scratching my head at?

And to @oldnightcrawler's point: TBH, I think Theresa/Siryn is the best example of a fiery red head than Jean or Angelica. The other two have tempers like most superheroines, but Jean and Angelica do tend to be more thoughtful. Even Siryn's powerset and what it's based on is the personification of rage.

I actually always thought Angelica's look was too similar to Spitfire's, especially before the costume change!

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I was thinking about Siryn after I said that, actually. I think you're right that she represents the "fiery redhead" trope better than any other marvel character (though, I can't help but find this a little problematic as I think this is a bit of her being an Irish stereotype)..

my point was more that both Rachel and Firestar are meant to represent what fire itself represents, not that no one else represents a similar (possibly more culturally insensitive) version of that trope.

and that point was in service of the point that poisonflower was not wrong, as you had suggested.

To be honest, I never said that Poisonflower was wrong per se - just oversimplifying. I just don't find Firestar or Jean's Phoenix energy manifestation similar. Being completely honest here! The Phoenix usually appeared as a flaming bird, with it's head poised over Jean's, with the entire avatar manifesting behind Jean. Firestar's energy signature typically looks like strobing flames that engulfed her body or her fists. I actually think that Jean's default pinkish psionic manifestation, with mental energy surrounding her entire body, is more similar to what Firestar's looks like when flying. I'm kind of with Cattlebattle on that - I think a new reader might confuse the Phoenix avatar as signifying fire powers, but I don't think a comic fan who is more familiar with the character would.

So when poison is saying they both have flight and fire as their powers, I don't think that's the case - to me that's just a stylistic element. I think this would be like saying 'Iceman and Silver Surfer have the same powers, because they both have shiny skin and use a similar, sliding/surfing method to move around', which I think we could agree is a visual oversimplification of the characters powers.

And I see more crossover with Sunpyre and Firestar because their energy signatures and visual depictions are extremely close, complete with flames tending to surround their extremities, with their costumes and hair colors being the biggest visual difference.

I dunno...Goblin Queen and Rachel have enough history, despite their connection to Jean, that I don't consider them knockoffs. Young Jean and Hope are the characters that seem more knockoff-y to me from that list, and not to derail the convo - I was just saying Rachel is my favorite from the list.

I see what you're saying, I suppose, I just also saw what PF was saying too.

Though I still maintain that "young Jean" can't be a knock off, since she's actually meant to be the same character; you can't be a knock-off of yourself..

The real Jean Grey is my xtreme love ever. Su fkn hot and powerfull. She now is a cosmic thing, right?

I'd only have a problem with it if I thought Jean had had an interesting personality to begin with.

Honestly, I like teen Jean as much if not more than I liked any other iteration, so, meh.

@oldnightcrawler: To each his own but teen Jean is annoying. But then again I've always argued that the while O5 premise was needlessly ridiculous and at the very least should have been set up better or more favorably just abandoned to begin with. If I'm being honest here I would have been completely fine with Jean being dead after DPS and not in a cocoon. Maybe she could have been in some sort of White Hot Room that was discovered later or her sister could have taken her place or maybe she could have just been resurrected or something or repowered. The only reason I'm even mentioning other alternatives to her being dead is because of Maddie Pryor. But I think Jean being around in any form cheapens the profound story in DPS. Just let Rachel take over that spot and move on

@kgb725: Last thing i remember with hope she was being a normal girl going to school and stuff. I think that's were she was left off.

I Don't consider hope a clone, even if she was meant to be one mostly cause of her power set. I originally saw her as a future female cable/rogue but that never came to fruition and they just stopped writing her.

Maddie and Rachael are the best<3

1. To each his own indeed

2. Sure, me too.

3. or whatever, sure.

4. I kind of know what you mean, but to that end, I kind of think teen Jean messes with the original DPS story the least, because she's from before it happened.

Jean 2.0 (1986-2004) messes up DPS in all kinds of ridiculous ways that even most hardcore X-men fans don't realize, while at the same time kind of taking the character's signature story away from her -and that's the character most fans are referring to when they say "the real Jean"*

.So, to me, teen Jean is more the real Jean, because she's from before DPS and all of the retcons.

*(Or they're talking about the one from TAS, I really can't tell half the time).

@oldnightcrawler:when ur favorite character dies for 10+ years and they had a teen version of him or herself then u can talk to me

Cerebus? he's been dead since 2004, so I guess we're still good.

lol i dont know whether i should laugh or cry...........also are u trolling me, cant tell im drunk, lol

make it stop @koays

Um...I'll get a bucket?

eww lol

we all know oldnightcrwler is a emma and nightcrawler fangirl

@oldnightcrawler: Maybe she doesn't mess with DPS as much as the rest like you said but even still, to me its the "problem" if you will,of how she's written and how she got to the present and that's what becomes the issue for me. I almost completely agree with you about Jean from 86-04. That was not the real Jean in my opinion or at least let me rephrase..not the Jean I'm talking about. I guess without the X-factor Jean we couldnt have gotten Madelyne Pryor who was awesome in my opinion or could have been but give me a second to really think or read somewhere and I probably could find some way around that too. But I'm weird like that I guess...because I hated that Maddie was even a clone of Jean in the first place but some see that as great writing as evidence by the cost of those trades on amazon. And I would have been completely fine with Hope being a reincarnated Jean, in fact I like Hope more so than teen Jean...so yeah like I said maybe weird but again to each his own.